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2021 - Is inflation finally back in the conversation?

Reagan1k

By Reagan1k
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Captainant

Captainant 27,464

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28 minutes ago, Hozz said:

Doubling the size of the IRS is bad for everyone.  Tax payers and tax cheats included.  It blows my mind that anyone could have a different take on that, unless they work for them or at another alphabet agency.  Look into who gets audited, they already go after poor people and the people least likely to put up a fight.  You think these new 90K guys are being hired to fix that?  Haha.

It's not inflating the size of the IRS, it's undoing the systemic damage that's been done to it to enable the ultra wealthy and tax cheats to have more breathing room. 

My wife and I have got a mortgage, two car payments, student debt payments, some small investments here and there, but you seriously believe I'm at an increased risk of audit because the IRS is no longer kneecapped? Puh LEEZE

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Bateshorn
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The only thing more predictable than the GOP running up huge deficits on tax cuts and military spending, is each one suddenly becoming horrified by deficit spending 5 mins after a Democrat is sworn in

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Armybrat

Armybrat 40,744

Posted
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Humble Beast said:

IRS doing their best to boost the economy. Now hiring for their newly funded deficit reduction task force. Sounds like they have big plans!

 

Just what we need, more armed IRS agents….

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/irs-agents-accidentally-discharged-guns-11-times-possible-injuries

Quote

Special training agents not properly trained in the use of firearms could endanger the public, as well as their fellow special agents, and expose the IRS to possible litigation over injuries or damages,” it warns.

According to the audit, “there were a total of eight firearm discharges classified as intentional use of force incidents and 11 discharges classified as accidental during FYs 2009 through 2011.”  In other words, agents were more likely to accidentally fire their weapon than to fire it intentionally.

 

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babysdaddy

babysdaddy 2,718

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/8/2022 at 3:47 PM, washparkhorn said:

Animal spirits and inflation. Below is good news that is bad news for those hoping for a quick Fed pivot. The Fed shows no sign of slowing QT or slowing rate hikes.

The Fed has to tighten in order to have room to ease if there is a hard landing. 

lol (not laughing at you, just have had this debate irl with others and it just sounds ridiculous)

 

Political messaging aside, nobody should be upset if inflationary pressure is rolling over. (fingers crossed).  

Edited by babysdaddy
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Trey3216

Trey3216 15,325

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9 hours ago, statsman said:

I do my family’s taxes. My wife is a realtor, self-employed. I don’t cheat and never have. Every time, turbo tax uses its macro to review deduction amounts and says that our chance of an audit is very low. 

If/when this bill passes, I’m having pros do our taxes. I just do not need the hassle and stress of an audit; let the paid preparer deal with it (I suspect CPA prepared taxes will be less likely to be audited). I guess this law will stimulate the economy- the tax preparation part of the economy😂

The “taxation is theft” portion of the economy.  

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15,325

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6 hours ago, Hozz said:

Doubling the size of the IRS is bad for everyone.  Tax payers and tax cheats included.  It blows my mind that anyone could have a different take on that, unless they work for them or at another alphabet agency.  Look into who gets audited, they already go after poor people and the people least likely to put up a fight.  You think these new 90K guys are being hired to fix that?  Haha.

We need 90k fewer government and bureaucrat jobs, not 90k more

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52-80

52-80 19,096

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8 hours ago, Hozz said:

 Look into who gets audited, they already go after poor people and the people least likely to put up a fight. 

Are the demographics of the most audited filers reflective of the IRS' targeting intent... or are they the ones with the highest level of actual fraud, and/or whose (simple) returns the easiest in which to spot fraud?

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Humble Beast

Humble Beast 258

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Hozz said:

Doubling the size of the IRS is bad for everyone.  Tax payers and tax cheats included.  It blows my mind that anyone could have a different take on that, unless they work for them or at another alphabet agency.  Look into who gets audited, they already go after poor people and the people least likely to put up a fight.  You think these new 90K guys are being hired to fix that?  Haha.

If I could rep this post 100x I would. 
 

Just heard a great explanation of how this IRS expansion is Bs.

 

Let’s say you had a problem with excess crime in an agency. Then  someone proposed let’s hire more people to look into it. We should look at abnormal, but not necessarily illegal behavior, and then investigate aggressively to see if they’ve done anything illegal, people would justifiably be like wtf. This is almost pre-crime type of investigations that are gonna happen. I’m guessing lower class people are going to be worse at hiding stuff that the algorithms flag. It’s all total shit. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31,283

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On 8/5/2022 at 7:57 AM, troph said:

Rate on self employment up to the social security cut off is over 7% higher than for W-2 employees. Not sure what your talking about.  If you mean SE folks get more deductions well gross receipts from self employment are like gross revenue for a company, we don’t pay tax in this county on gross receipts we pay it on net income. Ordinary and necessary business expenses are not a tax loop hole. 

I think he means people that live off investment income.  

Being self-employed kinda sucks tax-wise.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31,283

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On 8/8/2022 at 11:07 AM, Humble Beast said:

How many more agents can they assign to the Mississippi Delta?

2-A7-C89-F6-0-D5-F-4416-9-D17-59225-DA76

 

Some interesting factoids about IRS audits.  https://www.irs.gov/about-irs/irs-audit-rates-significantly-increase-as-income-rises

The primary category of po folks audits is of the EITC, which seems pretty abbreviated and is probably the subject of a good deal of, well, fraud, or at least mistakes.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31,283

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More from ProPublica. https://www.propublica.org/series/gutting-the-irs

There's been a lot of attrition at the IRS among senior ranks qualified to audit complex returns, from rich people, where most of the tax dodging occurs.

The low-level EITC audits don't require experienced staff and so, occur at about the same rate as ever.

Also, a big category of audits (they have all declined)  is people reporting zero or negative income.  Some of those may be poor.  Some may be Donald Trump.

 

If we're going to have taxes, a tax code, and tax laws, then we need to enforce them.  Having a tax code and kneecapping the enforcement agency is horseshit.  That's bad policy.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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10 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Being self-employed kinda sucks tax-wise.

Que?

The SSI/Medicare part kinda sucks, but the Trump tax cuts -- while I think were a bad idea for the national debt -- are great for SE. Add in stuff like SEP IRAs and health insurance deductions and you can do well.

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Hozz

Hozz 1,012

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16 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Are the demographics of the most audited filers reflective of the IRS' targeting intent... or are they the ones with the highest level of actual fraud, and/or whose (simple) returns the easiest in which to spot fraud?

My guess is the latter.  I'm sure the biggest issue with returns in that bracket are overclaiming credits.  Still.  It's a fucking incredibly stupid system and I stand on doubling its size is not good for the average person.

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16 hours ago, Humble Beast said:

If I could rep this post 100x I would. 
 

Just heard a great explanation of how this IRS expansion is Bs.

 

Let’s say you had a problem with excess crime in an agency. Then  someone proposed let’s hire more people to look into it. We should look at abnormal, but not necessarily illegal behavior, and then investigate aggressively to see if they’ve done anything illegal, people would justifiably be like wtf. This is almost pre-crime type of investigations that are gonna happen. I’m guessing lower class people are going to be worse at hiding stuff that the algorithms flag. It’s all total shit. 

So we'll see and doubling the size of the force seems like a lot.

But then I see all the fraud with the PPP that went on and think man, there must be some low-hanging fruit that putting more resources into the agency can uncover. 

My worry is the complexity of the tax code and people who get slammed when they weren't trying anything nefarious. Unless you have only a W-2, there's no way you can feel 100% confident that you did everything correctly. It's impossible.

Then there are people who I'm sure just do dumb shit thinking they won't ever hear about it.

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52-80

52-80 19,096

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If the auditing frequency is already available as published data, so should be the prosecution rate and financial recovery rate. 

As long as the projected marginal recovery of (rightful) taxes exceeds the cost of IRS staff expansion, im all for it. 

(Dont care if the extra dollar comes from a thousandaire or a millionaire, if its rightfully owed, i wont judge based on class-ideology)

Agreed that the root cause is the excessive tax codes that caused complexity and allows for creative accounting. FYI in many countries, the taxes are simple enough that tax filing is optional for most earners — the withholding at source is simple enough that the liability ends up flat at year end for people.  As far as I know, its the US accounting industry that lobbied strongly against simplification of tax laws and processes  

 

 

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15,325

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30 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

If the auditing frequency is already available as published data, so should be the prosecution rate and financial recovery rate. 

As long as the projected marginal recovery of (rightful) taxes exceeds the cost of IRS staff expansion, im all for it. 

(Dont care if the extra dollar comes from a thousandaire or a millionaire, if its rightfully owed, i wont judge based on class-ideology)

Agreed that the root cause is the excessive tax codes that caused complexity and allows for creative accounting. FYI in many countries, the taxes are simple enough that tax filing is optional for most earners — the withholding at source is simple enough that the liability ends up flat at year end for people.  As far as I know, its the US accounting industry that lobbied strongly against simplification of tax laws and processes  

 

 

Gotta generate degree $$ from all those accredited state-sponsored universities  

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Skipper

Skipper 6,103

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1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

 

(Dont care if the extra dollar comes from a thousandaire or a millionaire, if its rightfully owed, i wont judge based on class-ideology)

 

Other than the fact that a shit load of people that did absolutely nothing wrong are going to have to waste hours upon hours of their life dealing with a fucking audit.   And if you get a prick agent (I assume they all are, who else would want that job) I imagine they can find SOMETHING on anyone.  Won $400 in your fantasy pool and didn't report it! Penalty Motherfucker. 

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CowboyFred

CowboyFred 1,151

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3 hours ago, Humble Beast said:

Good point. It’s a great jobs program. Glad to see you’re on the side of more law enforcement. Let’s hire 87,000 more cops at the federal level. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about! 

You keep mentioning this 87K number, source?

 

https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/taxes-verify/irs-not-increasing-audits-hiring-87k-new-agents-through-inflation-reduction-act/536-477cb699-a46e-4898-9e5e-0e48d5fffd2a

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CowboyFred

CowboyFred 1,151

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Posted
Spoiler

The IRS is not increasing audits on middle class by hiring 87K new agents

The Inflation Reduction Act includes about $80 billion in funding for the IRS. The agency isn’t using that money to hire 87,000 new auditors.


There was 0% inflation in July 2022, but inflation is still at 8.5% annually


VERIFY This: Medicare cuts, $35 insulin for all, chickenpox vaccine, Pelosi Taiwan trip and shading A/C units

Author: Megan Loe
Published: 10:15 AM EDT August 11, 2022
Updated: 5:56 PM EDT August 12, 2022
Congress recently passed the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022, which includes the largest-ever federal effort to combat climate change and aims to lower rising costs of goods while paying down the nation's debt. The legislation also allocates funding to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). 
After the Senate passed the bill, people on Twitter claimed that the funding would allow the IRS to increase audits on middle-class Americans by hiring 87,000 new agents. 
“Do you make $75,000 or less? Democrats' new army of 87,000 IRS agents will be coming for you — with 710,000 new audits for Americans who earn less than $75k,” House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) wrote in a tweet. 
THE QUESTION

Is the IRS increasing audits on the middle class by hiring 87,000 new agents?
THE SOURCES

U.S. Treasury Department
IRS Commissioner Charles Rettig
Inflation Reduction Act of 2022
THE ANSWER


No, the IRS is not increasing audits on the middle class by hiring 87,000 new agents. 
Sign up for the VERIFY Fast Facts daily Newsletter!
WHAT WE FOUND


The Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 includes about $80 billion in funding for the IRS over the next 10 years.
If the bill passes the House and is signed into law, about $45.6 billion of that IRS funding would be put toward expenses for IRS tax enforcement services through September 2031, including hiring more employees. But the bill does not mention that the agency will hire 87,000 new agents specifically tasked with audits – and the U.S. Department of the Treasury says these claims are false. 
The text of the Inflation Reduction Act doesn’t specify a number of new hires for the IRS. The 87,000 number shows up in a May 2021 report from the Treasury Department that estimated more funding allocated by President Joe Biden’s administration would allow the IRS to hire nearly 87,000 full-time employees by 2031. 
RELATED: Yes, the Internal Revenue Service did buy nearly $700K in ammunition in early 2022
That report was specific to previous legislation and it’s not clear yet how many people the IRS would hire with the Inflation Reduction Act funding.
Additionally, the IRS is expecting a large number of employees to leave in the next 10 years and will hire new staff to fill those roles. At least 50,000 staff members will leave or retire from the agency in the next five years alone, according to the Treasury Department. 
These staff members work in various departments throughout the IRS and aren’t tasked with only enforcement. The IRS plans to determine the final numbers and breakdown of potential new staff for the next decade in the coming months, but the addition of new employees won’t mean increased audits for middle-class Americans, according to the Treasury and IRS. 
“New staff will be hired to improve taxpayer services and experienced auditors who can take on corporate and high-end tax evaders, without increasing audit rates relative to historical norms for people earning under $400,000 each year,” a spokesperson for the Treasury Department said. 
In a recent letter, IRS Commissioner Charles Rettig also assured Senate members that the IRS would not “increase audit scrutiny on small businesses or middle-income Americans.”
According to the Treasury Department spokesperson, “the resources to modernize the IRS will be used to improve taxpayer services, from answering the phones to improving IT systems – and to crack down on high-income and corporate tax evaders who cost the American people hundreds of billions of dollars each year.”
RELATED: Inflation Reduction Act only caps insulin prices for Medicare patients, not for people with private insurance
Previous analyses of the agency have revealed that the IRS needs more employees. National Taxpayer Advocate Erin M. Collins said in her midyear report to Congress, published in June 2022, that many of the challenges the IRS is facing “stem from inadequate staffing, including limited staffing in Submission Processing and telephone call centers.”
In 2021, the IRS had less than 80,000 employees, a decrease of nearly 13% since 2012, according to the agency’s website.
Rettig wrote in his letter that the IRS has “fewer front-line, experienced examiners in the field than at any time since World War II, and fewer employees than at any time since the 1970s.”
“Advances in technology have been helpful but have not kept pace with the ever-increasing responsibilities and challenges facing the IRS,” he said. “As a result, the IRS has for too long been unable to pursue meaningful, impactful examinations of large corporate and high-networth taxpayers to ensure they are paying their fair share.”

Meant to add the spoiler 

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52-80

52-80 19,096

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But the bill does not mention that the agency will hire 87,000 new agents specifically tasked with audits – and the U.S. Department of the Treasury says these claims are false. 
 

…

The 87,000 number shows up in a May 2021 report from the Treasury Department that estimated more funding allocated by President Joe Biden’s administration would allow the IRS to hire nearly 87,000 full-time employees by 2031. 

 


 

Interestin nit to pick…

 

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15,325

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16 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

What do you have against creating jobs? 

Massive government bloat.  There are at least 1mm unnecessary federal jobs.   Go be productive.   We talk about debt and fiscal responsibility but we’re gonna add more bloat to the federal payment schedule.  Just absolutely, mind-numbingly stupid.   

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Humble Beast

Humble Beast 258

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16 hours ago, CowboyFred said:

You keep mentioning this 87K number, source?

 

https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/taxes-verify/irs-not-increasing-audits-hiring-87k-new-agents-through-inflation-reduction-act/536-477cb699-a46e-4898-9e5e-0e48d5fffd2a

 

12 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

First GR Horn post?

From the fact check. 
 

“The text of the Inflation Reduction Act doesn’t specify a number of new hires for the IRS. The 87,000 number shows up in a May 2021 reportfrom the Treasury Department that estimated more funding allocated by President Joe Biden’s administration would allow the IRS to hire nearly 87,000 full-time employees by 2031.”

 

So 87,000 more agents over the next decade if they’re allocated more funding. And….they were allocated more funding in a very public effort to increase the scope of their operations and collections. All while not bothering to clarify or contest the number themselves. 
 

I award your fact check a generous 1 out of 5 stars.
 

That was some well ackshually….level work.

 

 

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CowboyFred

CowboyFred 1,151

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36 minutes ago, Humble Beast said:

 

From the fact check. 
 

“The text of the Inflation Reduction Act doesn’t specify a number of new hires for the IRS. The 87,000 number shows up in a May 2021 reportfrom the Treasury Department that estimated more funding allocated by President Joe Biden’s administration would allow the IRS to hire nearly 87,000 full-time employees by 2031.”

 

So 87,000 more agents over the next decade if they’re allocated more funding. And….they were allocated more funding in a very public effort to increase the scope of their operations and collections. All while not bothering to clarify or contest the number themselves. 
 

I award your fact check a generous 1 out of 5 stars.
 

That was some well ackshually….level work.

 

 

Did you miss this part?

Additionally, the IRS is expecting a large number of employees to leave in the next 10 years and will hire new staff to fill those roles. At least 50,000 staff members will leave or retire from the agency in the next five years alone, according to the Treasury Department. 
 

 

55 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

First GR Horn post?

fuck you and fuck gr horn 

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Neonmoon

Neonmoon 38,127

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4 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

Massive government bloat.  There are at least 1mm unnecessary federal jobs.   Go be productive.   We talk about debt and fiscal responsibility but we’re gonna add more bloat to the federal payment schedule.  Just absolutely, mind-numbingly stupid.   

Hiring people to enforce tax laws isn't bloat or irresponsible, in the same way hiring more police officers to enforce laws isn't bloat or irresponsible. I'm all for reducing the debt, which is currently being done, and fiscal responsibility, which you think would include collecting all revenues due instead of just assuming everyone is following the rules. 

If the government was interested in reducing bloat, they would begin by reducing the industrial military complex. 

 

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Hefeweizen

Hefeweizen 5,307

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2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Less than 0.2% of the annual budget, and that's if all 87K hires (unconfirmed) happen in year 1.

And, they actually pull their weight to some degree by bringing in more revenue.

"Fiscal conservatives" crack me up.  Clutch more pearls.

They aren’t fiscal at all.  They just want theirs.

 

I just wish people would be honest instead of saying it is going to hurt poor people, the economy, small business, and every lemonade stand.

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