Kanye

[Foggy Notion 1202]

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1yoKMVydwkwGQ

This is a link to a live Periscope that Ye just posted. He's back on social media apparently. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Foggy Notion

[Foggy Notion 1202]

It's titled "Mind Control". The tldr is don't believe social media, everybody loves Ye. He's the greatest artist on the planet, he's channeling Fela, Marley and Tupac. And he wants to buy his publishing rights from Sony, but Sony won't sell them. 

[Guest Lobo]

7 hours ago, achooloco said:

His regime was, better? In the end he fought for genicidal racists so calling him one don’t make a shit to me. You want a distinction, okay... as for field marshal, sorry I’m not up to date on German officer nomenclature. If you say that’s his title, I believe you. But It’s not really german-e (get it? Ha) to the issue, so I guess you’re a label nazi instead of a grammar one? Feel like I’m lost in raiders of the lost ark...

You're not up to date on German officer nomenclature?  Mkay.  I wish I could be there when you find out almost every land army's officer ranks/rates have been the same across national borders for the last few centuries.  Field Marshall isn't an "up-to-date" thing, it was kind of around for a while...a long while.  I can't help but think you picture the Secretary of the Navy taking notes as Read Admirals discuss the maritime issues of the day.  Another fun fact---Rommel is the only Axis officer permitted a museum after WWII.  They also made him murder himself, at the threat of the death of his family, because of his failure to go along with the flow.  

But you obviously sound like a student of history, so you do you.  You small measure of a man.  Your grandfather knew all this and somehow, it all escapes you...

[hobbes2702 13083]

Defending Nazi’s now. United States in 2018.

[achooloco 1086]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

You're not up to date on German officer nomenclature?  Mkay.  I wish I could be there when you find out almost every land army's officer ranks/rates have been the same across national borders for the last few centuries.  Field Marshall isn't an "up-to-date" thing, it was kind of around for a while...a long while.  I can't help but think you picture the Secretary of the Navy taking notes as Read Admirals discuss the maritime issues of the day.  Another fun fact---Rommel is the only Axis officer permitted a museum after WWII.  They also made him murder himself, at the threat of the death of his family, because of his failure to go along with the flow.  

But you obviously sound like a student of history, so you do you.  You small measure of a man.  Your grandfather knew all this and somehow, it all escapes you...

The USA military has the rank of field Marshall? News to me (seriously, had no idea, so thank you) but fyi My grandfather was an illiterate  land holder in Mexico with business acumen, no plantation though, just land so I’m confident in saying he gave two shots about what we’re discussing. but that’s neither here nor there, he was still a bad ass.

That aside, still not pertinent to the issue at hand. Using lee or Rommel as a talking point outside of a military tactician debate is only to propagate a racist agenda, yes or no? Lobo, let’s hear your thoughts, I’m all ears broseph, and fuck rapylor, go horns! (Hope we can agree on that at least!!!!

[Stilicho 1405]

Kanye West.  Robert E. Lee being dogwhistled at a Republican rally in Ohio.  The Rommel Myth. 

All being defended in 2018 American politics.

@Brisketexan I hope you have a top shelf barrel of rum out on your ledge.

[hobbes2702 13083]

3 minutes ago, Stilicho said:

Kanye West.  Robert E. Lee being dogwhistled at a Republican rally in Ohio.  The Rommel Myth. 

All being defended in 2018 American politics.

@Brisketexan I hope you have a top shelf barrel of rum out on your ledge.

Whoa whoa whoa, I was told we were drinking scotch.

[Stilicho 1405]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

Whoa whoa whoa, I was told we were drinking scotch.

I assume there's going to be a limited amount of scotch on such a crowded ledge.

I'll take the rum.  I've always been a cheap and somewhat tasteless drinker.

[Degenerate Gardner 4085]

You'd think someone named after an anagram of Kenya would be more of an Obama guy

[Guest Lobo]

13 hours ago, achooloco said:

The USA military has the rank of field Marshall? News to me (seriously, had no idea, so thank you) but fyi My grandfather was an illiterate  land holder in Mexico with business acumen, no plantation though, just land so I’m confident in saying he gave two shots about what we’re discussing. but that’s neither here nor there, he was still a bad ass.

That aside, still not pertinent to the issue at hand. Using lee or Rommel as a talking point outside of a military tactician debate is only to propagate a racist agenda, yes or no? Lobo, let’s hear your thoughts, I’m all ears broseph, and fuck rapylor, go horns! (Hope we can agree on that at least!!!!

Field Marshall is a 5-star equivalent, think NATO OF-10.  Just because the U.S. doesn't have it (it does grant O-10 rates during wartime), doesn't mean it doesn't exist in several dozen militaries across the globe.  Rommel was a Field Marshall, not a General.  You were wrong, just admit it.  And we can move on to your second topic.  

I very much agree with your notion of using Lee is a frequently misguided attempt to propagate a racist agenda as you say.  But no, you can't lump in Rommel with him.  Lee, in addition to his military prowess, was also a racist asshole.  Rommel wasn't.  He was the genocidal maniac you think he was.  He is not used for the same shit as Lee is.  Me propping up Rommel's military prowess or his personal character has no racist agenda.  Seriously, let this sink in---the Allies took down every monument to every Nazi leader, stripped their names from buildings, and certainly didn't allow for any ceremonial burials or institutional shrines to Nazi leadership.  BUT---a museum of Rommel's life and record began being planned in the 1950's and was built in the 1980's under U.S. and British supervision and endorsement.  It even has a facility in Egypt where the Desert Fox has a hotel named for him.  Allied forces continued to honor his legacy for 30 years after the war, gathering at his burial site on the anniversary of his forced suicide.  And here's a fun fact---Rommel wasn't a Nazi.  Never joined the party.  I know you, badteammate, Hugo, et. al. think any white person who lived in the last 100 years who is right of centre is a Nazi, but Rommel did not join the Party.  Therefore, he was not a Nazi.  Admittedly, he benefited tremendously from the regime.  Did not participate in genocide, nor any war crimes.  Lee and Rommel aren't the same.  They're not even used for the same agendas except in your own warped mind.  

You want a Nazi/racist equivalent of Lee who was 4-start or higher?  There is a long, long list.  Read some WWII history, you'll have no shortage of parallel examples.  And I suspect you'll have a much stronger argument.  Start with Heydrich.  Meantime, you're out of your depths on the Lee/Rommel comparison.  Because there isn't one.  The Statues of Lee existed to intimidate Blacks.  The museum of Rommel stands as a testament to honorable conduct in war.  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

38 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Field Marshall is a 5-star equivalent, think NATO OF-10.  Just because the U.S. doesn't have it (it does grant O-10 rates during wartime), doesn't mean it doesn't exist in several dozen militaries across the globe.  Rommel was a Field Marshall, not a General.  You were wrong, just admit it.  And we can move on to your second topic.  

I very much agree with your notion of using Lee is a frequently misguided attempt to propagate a racist agenda as you say.  But no, you can't lump in Rommel with him.  Lee, in addition to his military prowess, was also a racist asshole.  Rommel wasn't.  He was the genocidal maniac you think he was.  He is not used for the same shit as Lee is.  Me propping up Rommel's military prowess or his personal character has no racist agenda.  Seriously, let this sink in---the Allies took down every monument to every Nazi leader, stripped their names from buildings, and certainly didn't allow for any ceremonial burials or institutional shrines to Nazi leadership.  BUT---a museum of Rommel's life and record began being planned in the 1950's and was built in the 1980's under U.S. and British supervision and endorsement.  It even has a facility in Egypt where the Desert Fox has a hotel named for him.  Allied forces continued to honor his legacy for 30 years after the war, gathering at his burial site on the anniversary of his forced suicide.  And here's a fun fact---Rommel wasn't a Nazi.  Never joined the party.  I know you, badteammate, Hugo, et. al. think any white person who lived in the last 100 years who is right of centre is a Nazi, but Rommel did not join the Party.  Therefore, he was not a Nazi.  Admittedly, he benefited tremendously from the regime.  Did not participate in genocide, nor any war crimes.  Lee and Rommel aren't the same.  They're not even used for the same agendas except in your own warped mind.  

You want a Nazi/racist equivalent of Lee who was 4-start or higher?  There is a long, long list.  Read some WWII history, you'll have no shortage of parallel examples.  And I suspect you'll have a much stronger argument.  Start with Heydrich.  Meantime, you're out of your depths on the Lee/Rommel comparison.  Because there isn't one.  The Statues of Lee existed to intimidate Blacks.  The museum of Rommel stands as a testament to honorable conduct in war.  

You can just look at the list of officers and generals in the US army during the Civil War to see racists as bad, and worse than Lee (so you say) who, was just about the first member of his congregation to openly embrace blacks worshipping at St Johns church in Richmond, Va. after the war).

Sherman was a pretty blatant racist, and among the best generals in the War, he was Grants Jackson. Grant one the other hand seems to have not been a racist, much more to his credit as maybe our best general ever produced..

This whole thing came out of a stupid ass post that praising  general Lees abilities makes you racist.  A typical line of thought from a few choice posters here on the surly whose handles are all known.  As usual people try to move goal posts to hide the idiocy of their fellow travelers.

 

Oh It's also damned funny that R. Byrd a grand wizard of the KKK has been deified by the democrat party.  A racist much more virulent than Lee in many measures.  Had Lincoln lived I'll wager Lee would have been a part of his binding up of wounds of a nation once divided. Lee after the war carried out that very task on his own.  

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Onboard 2.0

[hobbes2702 13083]

Working real hard to defend a Nazi and a traitor 

[Guest Lobo]

15 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

Defending Nazi’s now. United States in 2018.

Again, you're gonna have to remind us how someone who was neither a member of the Nazi Party nor the SS, and who tried to murder the figure-head of the Nazi party was a Nazi.  Nazi was the name given to members of a particular political party in a particular place and time.  There were 70,000,000 people in Germany in WWII.  There were never 70,000,000 members of the Nazi Party.  I'm still completely unclear as to how Rommel was a Nazi.  

Actually, to even further sidetrack this thread---let me ask you a question.  list the ways in which all German Heer officers were Nazis.  Demonstrate, using examples and facts where appropriate, Field Marshall Erwin Rommel was a formal member of the Nazi Party and lived and breathed their ideology.  I'll hang up and listen.  

[Longhorn_Fan68 33900]

Wtf?

[hobbes2702 13083]

13 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Again, you're gonna have to remind us how someone who was neither a member of the Nazi Party nor the SS, and who tried to murder the figure-head of the Nazi party was a Nazi.  Nazi was the name given to members of a particular political party in a particular place and time.  There were 70,000,000 people in Germany in WWII.  There were never 70,000,000 members of the Nazi Party.  I'm still completely unclear as to how Rommel was a Nazi.  

Actually, to even further sidetrack this thread---let me ask you a question.  list the ways in which all German Heer officers were Nazis.  Demonstrate, using examples and facts where appropriate, Field Marshall Erwin Rommel was a formal member of the Nazi Party and lived and breathed their ideology.  I'll hang up and listen.  

He supported the Nazi rise to power although he wasn’t a party member. He also did this thing where he lead an army to defend Nazi Germany from the allies. So yea he’s a Nazi. You’re a fucking moron

[Guest Lobo]

Was he defending a country and a people, or was he physically defending a political party?  I'm the moron?  You really think the British and Americans would visit his grave every year because he was a Nazi?  

You're saying that everyone who took up arms to defend Germany after the 1942 pushback on the Eastern Front was a Nazi?  Despite their role in the party or lack thereof?  Serious question.  

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

43 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Working real hard to defend a Nazi and a traitor 

Yer such a cartoon.

[hobbes2702 13083]

9 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Was he defending a country and a people, or was he physically defending a political party?  I'm the moron?  You really think the British and Americans would visit his grave every year because he was a Nazi?  

You're saying that everyone who took up arms to defend Germany after the 1942 pushback on the Eastern Front was a Nazi?  Despite their role in the party or lack thereof?  Serious question.  

 

Did he lead an army against the allied forces in order to support the goals of the third reich? He might not have been a party member but I don’t feel the need to distinguish between party members and people who fought in behalf of Adolf fucking Hitler

[hobbes2702 13083]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yer such a cartoon.

Keep defending treason. Past and present.

[Guest Lobo]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Did he lead an army against the allied forces in order to support the goals of the third reich? He might not have been a party member but I don’t feel the need to distinguish between party members and people who fought in behalf of Adolf fucking Hitler

Over 1,000,000 non-Germans fought for the Waffen-SS and Wermacht proper.  Certainly many of those were Nazi sympathizers, but hundreds of thousands were conscripted from occupied portions of the Reich.  More conscripted, non-Germans fought to defend Nazi Germany than are currently in the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine Corps...combined.  By your outstanding logic, these forced military combatants were Nazis to you?  

[seven 1368]

Come on man, everyone recognizes the difference between josef the baker fighting for the Nazis (for or against his will) and a fucking field Marshall

[hobbes2702 13083]

5 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Over 1,000,000 non-Germans fought for the Waffen-SS and Wermacht proper.  Certainly many of those were Nazi sympathizers, but hundreds of thousands were conscripted from occupied portions of the Reich.  More conscripted, non-Germans fought to defend Nazi Germany than are currently in the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine Corps...combined.  By your outstanding logic, these forced military combatants were Nazis to you?  

He lead the defense at Normandy. He’s not some conscripted guy from Poland. He a fucking German field Marshall who lead the army of Adolf Hitler against he allied forces a Normandy. He’s a fucking enabler of the holocaust at best.

Anyone defending him can do exactly what he did and kill themselves.

[Guest Lobo]

I do and you do, his claim is that anyone and everyone who defended Germany was a Nazi.  He says it several times in several ways.  

[hobbes2702 13083]

Just now, Lobo said:

I do and you do, his claim is that anyone and everyone who defended Germany was a Nazi.  He says it several times in several ways.  

Quote it.

[Captainant 27861]

7 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Over 1,000,000 non-Germans fought for the Waffen-SS and Wermacht proper.  Certainly many of those were Nazi sympathizers, but hundreds of thousands were conscripted from occupied portions of the Reich.  More conscripted, non-Germans fought to defend Nazi Germany than are currently in the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine Corps...combined.  By your outstanding logic, these forced military combatants were Nazis to you?  

Forced conscription and field marshall are a little different in terms of personal buy-in I would argue. Rommel knew who and what he was fighting for, and it wasn't because he was forced into it.

[hayden_horn 11365]

Such a strange hill up upon which to choose to die. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by hayden_horn

[Guest Lobo]

6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

He lead the defense at Normandy. He’s not some conscripted guy from Poland. He a fucking German field Marshall who lead the army of Adolf Hitler against he allied forces a Normandy. He’s a fucking enabler of the holocaust at best.

Anyone defending him can do exactly what he did and kill themselves.

And thank you to Hobbes for encouraging suicide.  Pointing out facts is not the same as defending him.  Again, by your outstanding logic...several thousand officers of various Allied Forces who allowed his museum and visited his grave should have killed themselves for defending him, right?  Everyone that fights for a country during a war automatically belongs to that nation's in-power political party?   You're also gonna be really surprised when you find out why Rommel wasn't at Normandy.  He wasn't busy murdering Jews, it was his wife's birthday.  Christ, do you read books ever?  

Is this moronic leap in logic that developed our current political climate.  All white people right of center in America are Nazis according to scholars of history like Hobbes.  And all people left of center are anti-American socialists in the eyes of Trump Supporters.  This is how we get here, by ignoring history, mental shortcuts, and telling people who recognize factual nuance in history that they should take their own lives whenever possible.  Outstanding stuff Hobbes.  You are officially dumber than Kanye West.  At least he gets money and a hot wife out of insanity.  What'd you get?  

[bad_teammate 13226]

#NotAllNazis

[hobbes2702 13083]

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

And thank you to Hobbes for encouraging suicide.  Pointing out facts is not the same as defending him.  Again, by your outstanding logic...several thousand officers of various Allied Forces who allowed his museum and visited his grave should have killed themselves for defending him, right?  Everyone that fights for a country during a war automatically belongs to that nation's in-power political party?   You're also gonna be really surprised when you find out why Rommel wasn't at Normandy.  He wasn't busy murdering Jews, it was his wife's birthday.  Christ, do you read books ever?  

Is this moronic leap in logic that developed our current political climate.  All white people right of center in America are Nazis according to scholars of history like Hobbes.  And all people left of center are anti-American socialists in the eyes of Trump Supporters.  This is how we get here, by ignoring history, mental shortcuts, and telling people who recognize factual nuance in history that they should take their own lives whenever possible.  Outstanding stuff Hobbes.  You are officially dumber than Kanye West.  At least he gets money and a hot wife out of insanity.  What'd you get?  

I’ll encourage suicide for Nazis

[hobbes2702 13083]

3 minutes ago, Lobo said:

And thank you to Hobbes for encouraging suicide.  Pointing out facts is not the same as defending him.  Again, by your outstanding logic...several thousand officers of various Allied Forces who allowed his museum and visited his grave should have killed themselves for defending him, right?  Everyone that fights for a country during a war automatically belongs to that nation's in-power political party?   You're also gonna be really surprised when you find out why Rommel wasn't at Normandy.  He wasn't busy murdering Jews, it was his wife's birthday.  Christ, do you read books ever?  

Is this moronic leap in logic that developed our current political climate.  All white people right of center in America are Nazis according to scholars of history like Hobbes.  And all people left of center are anti-American socialists in the eyes of Trump Supporters.  This is how we get here, by ignoring history, mental shortcuts, and telling people who recognize factual nuance in history that they should take their own lives whenever possible.  Outstanding stuff Hobbes.  You are officially dumber than Kanye West.  At least he gets money and a hot wife out of insanity.  What'd you get?  

Nope not all right of center white people are Nazi’s. The guy leading Hitler’s army is though. 

Oh and I get the satisfaction of not being on the side of those who committed one of the worst atrocities in human history. 

 

[Guest Lobo]

There aren't any anymore, so you'll be hard pressed to encourage it.  Way to joke about suicide too by the way, hilarious stuff.  There are people in the world who know Rommel wasn't a Nazi, Trump is a horrible human being and President, Kavanaugh won't make a great Justice, and Hillary Clinton is overrated.  They're called people with a modicum of intelligence.  By the way,

I'm also Jewish.  Your comical lack of knowledge about WWII is enough to make me wish you good day and I suppose we should get back to the business of Kanye on here.  

[hobbes2702 13083]

Just now, Lobo said:

There aren't any anymore, so you'll be hard pressed to encourage it.  Way to joke about suicide too by the way, hilarious stuff.  There are people in the world who know Rommel wasn't a Nazi, Trump is a horrible human being and President, Kavanaugh won't make a great Justice, and Hillary Clinton is overrated.  They're called people with a modicum of intelligence.  By the way,

I'm also Jewish.  Your comical lack of knowledge about WWII is enough to make me wish you good day and I suppose we should get back to the business of Kanye on here.  

Oh I’m not joking about suicide. I’m deadly serious that anyone defending Nazi’s or any Nazi’s should kill themselves.

[Guest Lobo]

When you find some members of the National Socialist German Worker's Party...I'll join you in wishing them their own demise.  

Let me know when/where they turn up because there are actually still a few on the loose and Mossad will pay handsomely for credible intel.  

Edited October 14, 2018 by Lobo

[Helobious 9467]

4 hours ago, Lobo said:

And thank you to Hobbes for encouraging suicide.  Pointing out facts is not the same as defending him.  Again, by your outstanding logic...several thousand officers of various Allied Forces who allowed his museum and visited his grave should have killed themselves for defending him, right?  Everyone that fights for a country during a war automatically belongs to that nation's in-power political party?   You're also gonna be really surprised when you find out why Rommel wasn't at Normandy.  He wasn't busy murdering Jews, it was his wife's birthday.  Christ, do you read books ever?  

Is this moronic leap in logic that developed our current political climate.  All white people right of center in America are Nazis according to scholars of history like Hobbes.  And all people left of center are anti-American socialists in the eyes of Trump Supporters.  This is how we get here, by ignoring history, mental shortcuts, and telling people who recognize factual nuance in history that they should take their own lives whenever possible.  Outstanding stuff Hobbes.  You are officially dumber than Kanye West.  At least he gets money and a hot wife out of insanity.  What'd you get?  

He wasn't a member of the Nazi party. He just used his talents and abilities to help them accomplish their objectives, in a very very big way. If you really stop and think about it, that actually makes him far worse than Joe German who simply joined the Nazis and agreed with their worldview. 

 

[Guest Lobo]

Okay, point taken.  I wonder if some of you realize that thousands upon thousands of Allied officers vehemently disagree with you and they were there and you barely understand WWII history.  You really think it's just a wild coincidence that the records of every Italian, Japanese, and German general officer have been poured over and that Rommel's just "slipped through the cracks"?  You are literally disagreeing with the official position at a half dozen Allied war colleges to this day.  But you must know more than they do.  And any officer who leads a nation during a war is automatically taking up the positions of that nation's in-power political party?  That is literally your contention.  Any general officer who operates a command during a controversial party ruling is worse than the general membership of that party.  Tell me how that's different than what you just said.  

 

[hobbes2702 13083]

14 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Okay, point taken.  I wonder if some of you realize that thousands upon thousands of Allied officers vehemently disagree with you and they were there and you barely understand WWII history.  You really think it's just a wild coincidence that the records of every Italian, Japanese, and German general officer have been poured over and that Rommel's just "slipped through the cracks"?  You are literally disagreeing with the official position at a half dozen Allied war colleges to this day.  But you must know more than they do.  And any officer who leads a nation during a war is automatically taking up the positions of that nation's in-power political party?  That is literally your contention.  Any general officer who operates a command during a controversial party ruling is worse than the general membership of that party.  Tell me how that's different than what you just said.  

 

Shut the fuck up. He helped in the improsonment, torture, and genocide of millions of people but I guess that’s ok cuz he was just following orders right?

And for someone who seems to consider themselves so superior in knowledge about Rommel I’m surprised you haven’t heard of the Rommel myth. Maybe do a bit more research.

Edited October 15, 2018 by hobbes2702

[Guest Lobo]

I can only assume you have a tome of Rommel's war crimes?  If he helped murder millions of innocent people, surely that is documented somewhere...right?  You are intellectually lazy and picked a prominent German military leader based on a google search because of your limited education and intellectual prowess.  I've simply taken to listing facts about him and you can't get out of the corner you painted yourself in.  I can honestly get you into a room with a handful of respected Allied war college instructors and I want to see your presentation.  The British helped build him a museum you shit for brains.  And you tell me to shut the fuck up?  

Just post the official Nuremberg record of his role in the genocide of millions of people and I'll stop posting facts and you can get back to blowing cats or whatever it is you do on ACL weekend.  

Edited October 15, 2018 by Lobo

[hobbes2702 13083]

6 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I can only assume you have a tome of Rommel's war crimes?  If he helped murder millions of innocent people, surely that is documented somewhere...right?  You are intellectually lazy and picked a prominent German military leader based on a google search because of your limited education and intellectual prowess.  I've simply taken to listing facts about him and you can't get out of the corner you painted yourself in.  I can honestly get you into a room with a handful of respected Allied war college instructors and I want to see your presentation.  The British helped build him a museum you shit for brains.  And you tell me to shut the fuck up?  

I’m not the one who brought up Rommel but I guess your super intellect and education has trouble keeping up.

And yea see when he lead the German military against allied forces he was doing so to protect Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany was in the middle of a genocide. So yea he helped. 

Your only facts are things that are actively disputed. In fact there is plenty of research and documentation that shows the Rommel you speak of was actually a creation of Nazi propaganda.

So yea, shut the fuck up

Edited October 15, 2018 by hobbes2702

[Guest Lobo]

You should seriously be teaching the Tankers at West Point. I've never seen such intellectual prowess with regard to military history.  I've never met a single officer who agrees with you, but then-we've never been in the presence of such genius.  We walk in your shadow all-star.  

[hobbes2702 13083]

You sure do enjoy defending Nazi’s and their enablers.

[Stilicho 1405]

21 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Okay, point taken.  I wonder if some of you realize that thousands upon thousands of Allied officers vehemently disagree with you and they were there and you barely understand WWII history.  You really think it's just a wild coincidence that the records of every Italian, Japanese, and German general officer have been poured over and that Rommel's just "slipped through the cracks"?  You are literally disagreeing with the official position at a half dozen Allied war colleges to this day.  But you must know more than they do.  And any officer who leads a nation during a war is automatically taking up the positions of that nation's in-power political party?  That is literally your contention.  Any general officer who operates a command during a controversial party ruling is worse than the general membership of that party.  Tell me how that's different than what you just said.  

 

Thousands upon thousands?

I actually do happen to be a student of history, with a fancy diploma and everything, and the Rommel Myth has been fleshed out pretty clearly by historians and journalists alike.  The reasons why "half dozen Allied war colleges" hold such positions is due more to hagiography and national pride than true history.

Rommel was not a "card carrying" member of the Nazi party, but he was an early champion of Hitler and Hitler's rise to power.  He was, on top of being a pioneering field marshall in terms of mobilized infantry and tank warfare, a political opportunist and fortune seeker.  Historically, he appears to have found very little "controversial" about Hitler's reign and subsequent war until reversals in North Africa, the Eastern Front, and his own failures in Normandy.  His ties to the July 20th plot have always been somewhat specious and hard to pin down, thus adding a patina of legitimacy to the myth itself.

To be honest, he is no more deserving of "respect" from Allied soldiers than his Nazi-turned-American collaborator Wernher Von Braun.  But public perception and a desire to one up the Soviets in the Cold War led to a recasting of specific Nazis and Nazi-supporters as "good Germans".  This is pretty evident in the American push and subsequent enactment of the Marshall Plan as a means to rebuild West Germany into a bulwark against the "dreaded" spread of Stalinism.

I do, however, agree that this probably isn't the thread to be arguing over old WWII debates.  Specifically since its about a narcissistic lunatic like Kanye West.

@hayden_horn is there an appropriate forum to start a thread about these age old debates? 

[Guest Lobo]

his museum was built at the end of the Cold War, so I'm wondering where the recasting was in that story?.  And all those British and U.S. officers who made a trip to his grave are apparently nazi-symphatizers since they openly supported an officer who was in the opinion of this learned body...a war criminal.  I look forward to telling three West Point instructors tomorrow that everything they know...is wrong.  

[hobbes2702 13083]

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

his museum was built at the end of the Cold War, so I'm wondering where the recasting was in that story?.  And all those British and U.S. officers who made a trip to his grave are apparently nazi-symphatizers since they openly supported an officer who was in the opinion of this learned body...a war criminal.  I look forward to telling three West Point instructors tomorrow that everything they know...is wrong.  

Yea propaganda works. What are you not getting?

[mdmost 43060]

Who knew Kanye meeting with Trump would lead to Nazi talk.

[Stilicho 1405]

10 minutes ago, Lobo said:

his museum was built at the end of the Cold War, so I'm wondering where the recasting was in that story?.  And all those British and U.S. officers who made a trip to his grave are apparently nazi-symphatizers since they openly supported an officer who was in the opinion of this learned body...a war criminal.  I look forward to telling three West Point instructors tomorrow that everything they know...is wrong.  

I don't believe they're Nazi sympathizers, inasmuch as they adhere to Nazi principles.  They do opt for a sort of "hero worship" that dovetails nicely with late 1940s and early 1950s belief in "the good German" as a means to rebuilding the German state to serve as a battleground for the Cold War.  The fact that that he wasn't an officials member of the party and that he committed suicide during the fallout of the July 20th plot, again gives them the leeway to play fast and loose with history.  Here's a question for you:

Why does history and, in your example, military historians take a lesser view of Petain than they do Rommel?

Edited October 15, 2018 by Stilicho

[Stilicho 1405]

7 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Who knew Kanye meeting with Trump would lead to Nazi talk.

It's Nazis all the way down bro.

[Guest Lobo]

13 minutes ago, Stilicho said:

I don't believe they're Nazi sympathizers, inasmuch as they adhere to Nazi principles.  They do opt for a sort of "hero worship" that dovetails nicely with late 1940s and early 1950s belief in "the good German" as a means to rebuilding the German state to serve as a battleground for the Cold War.  The fact that that he wasn't an officials member of the party and that he committed suicide during the fallout of the July 20th plot, again gives them the leeway to play fast and loose with history.  Here's a question for you:

Why does history and, in your example, military historians take a lesser view of Petain than they do Rommel?

Vichy French.  Only country to lose the same war, twice.  Petain's prowess came in the Great War, before the true demonstration of mechanized warfare.  He would have been judged differently had he held his higher regard in WWII instead.  

[Stilicho 1405]

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

Vichy French.  Only country to lose the same war, twice.  Petain's prowess came in the Great War, before the true demonstration of mechanized warfare.  He would have been judged differently had he held his higher regard in WWII instead.  

But was he not looking out for his the well-being of his country and fellow countrymen?  Did he not sign a devil's bargain to defend a controversial government, not because he actually believed in the government, but because he believed that by supporting it he could limit the damage to a country he had so famously defended two decades prior?

I understand why history takes a dim view of Petain.  Because he failed to emerge victorious in the last battle history recounts.  But you pose the same basic arguments as to why history, specifically Allied history, respects Rommel.  If it's simply a matter of tactics and results and political beliefs, as you point out above, than why isn't Zhukov considered at least the equal to Rommel in Allied war colleges?  

[bad_teammate 13226]

Kanye's love of Trump is spurred partially by his rejection by Obama #sad

[Longhorn_Fan68 33900]

they're both idiots. they're perfect for each other