DACA, immigration reform whatever

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

Dp

Edited July 8, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[hpslugga 4,058]

18 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Then change the fucking rules. 

Again, I’m not sure why you chose to quote me earlier because that’s not what it was about. It’s about what drives these people to come here in the first place. My whole thing about that is that if you don’t want all those things to happen here, don’t give them a reason to come here. If they aren’t given a reason to come here, then they have no reason to come here. That’s what my entire post was about, and you've had precisely nothing to say about it.

18 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

We are a country of laws. 

The Leahy Law is one of those laws that our government routinely violates, and wouldn’t you know who won the pony, it creates immigration and refugee crises.

18 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

You talk to me as if I am a Trump supporter.

I couldn’t give two shits and a holler if you were or weren’t. He didn’t invent these arguments and he didn’t even create the concept of a wall (not that this was what we’re talking about). Nothing he’s ever said about immigration is original. This has nothing to do with him. Even if today he were to address the nation and say that he was wrong about everything he said about immigration, I would be saying the exact same things that I have been.

18 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

 However, there are real issues facing this country, and sticking our fingers in our ears or our heads in the sand is not going to make it go away. 

Again, you didn’t read a damned thing that I said. I never suggested sticking fingers in ears or any other entry. What I said was that our government needs to take measures to stop contributing to those people’s plight as it is a driver for them coming up here. Again, you’ve had nothing to say about that and you’re displaying a piss poor level of reading comprehension. 

 

[hpslugga 4,058]

35 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Then change the fucking rules. 

Again, I’m not sure why you chose to quote me earlier because that’s not what it was about. It’s about what drives these people to come here in the first place. My whole thing about that is that if you don’t want all those things to happen here, don’t give them a reason to come here. If they aren’t given a reason to come here, then they have no reason to come here. That’s what my entire post was about, and you've had precisely nothing to say about it.

Quote

We are a country of laws. 

The Leahy Law is one of those laws that our government routinely violates, and wouldn’t you know who won the pony, it creates immigration and refugee crises.

Quote

You talk to me as if I am a Trump supporter.

I couldn’t give two shits and a holler if you were or weren’t. He didn’t invent these arguments and he didn’t even create the concept of a wall (not that this was what we’re talking about). Nothing he’s ever said about immigration is original. This has nothing to do with him. Even if today he were to address the nation and say that he was wrong about everything he said about immigration, I would be saying the exact same things that I have been.

Quote

 However, there are real issues facing this country, and sticking our fingers in our ears or our heads in the sand is not going to make it go away. 

Again, you didn’t read a damned thing that I said. I never suggested sticking fingers in ears or any other entry. What I said was that our government needs to take measures to stop contributing to those people’s plight as it is a driver for them coming up here. Again, you’ve had nothing to say about that and you’re displaying a piss poor level of reading comprehension. 

 

[triplehorn 2,664]

Build the Wall ?

 

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,100]

19 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

The Leahy Law is one of those laws that our government routinely violates, and wouldn’t you know who won the pony, it creates immigration and refugee crises.

FYI, my argument is not to not let them in.  My question is how do these additional people impact our existing institutions and how are we going to reallocate resources in order to have the minimum impact to our instutions. 

As for your comment on the Leahy law, I personally think that the US Government should keep our collective nose out of other people's shit.  You are talking to someone who is a huge critic of our government and the way it runs things. 

That being said, whether these issues in Central and South America were caused by the US, or whether they would exist no matter our interference or not (and while I know it is easy to argue we caused this, but there is no guarantee that circumstances would be better without our involvement at all), we CANNOT provide for all the poor and uneducated in the world.  We have a finite amount of resources.  

Ultimately, my issue comes from additional people coming in, no matter color, religion, etc..., whether as an economic migrant or as a refugee, who are a burden to an overtaxed system.  The fact that no one is really talking about those issues shows me that both the major parties really have no desire to fix the broken system that we have, which is why I have a complete disdain for our federal government and continue to be amazed by those that believe they know best and can do the job better.  

[hpslugga 4,058]

14 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

That being said, whether these issues in Central and South America were caused by the US, or whether they would exist no matter our interference or not (and while I know it is easy to argue we caused this, but there is no guarantee that circumstances would be better without our involvement at all)

There's only one way to find out. If and when we attempt that and when we've rectified the evils that we've inflicted upon them, it'll be at that moment that we can say that our hands are clean of this and all that other stuff that you addressed. But we're not in that position, so it's pointless to speak of the issue as if we were. We can only control what we do and until we've gotten our shit straight, we've no right to chastise peoples and governments of other countries. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by hpslugga

[DigglerontheHoof 21,184]

1 hour ago, triplehorn said:

Build the Wall ?

 

 

We need to extend the wall all the way up the west coast, along the Gulf of Mexico and up the east coast.  And just to be sure, let's go ahead and build one along the Canadian border, as well.  Think of the (white) children!!!!!

[Captainant 27,644]

2 hours ago, triplehorn said:

Build the Wall ?

 

 

I'd bet mitch and his wife aren't real pleased about that

[retread 2,951]

KY's gonna need an extra $1B in federal funding now to make up for lost product.

[hobbes2702 13,031]

3 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Then change the fucking rules.  We are a country of laws.  You want to come here and work hard for a better life for your family?  Fantastic.  But you need to get in fucking line behind all those people trying to do it the right way.  Also, refine the refugee definition.  It is too broad and subjective as it stands.  There needs to be more guidelines.   

In 2007, for the first time, there was a stab at meaningful immigration reform.  It was torpedoed by the extreme left and the extreme right.  

And FYI, I know that the argument our own poor about the immigrants taking their job is horseshit. That is why I think public assistance should only go to those who cannot work, which includes the elderly, the disabled, and children.  Everyone else, tough shit.  I have very little sympathy for those who do not help them selves. 

Since you address the public education issue, I argue that no matter what you pay teachers, education starts in the home.  If the environment a child is raised in disregards education, then no matter how good the teacher or the school is, you are going to be hard pressed to get that child to succeed unless you can really get to them.  That is why I think programs like Junior Achievement and Big Brothers and Big Sisters are KEY to success, not just throwing money at teachers (though I do think they need to be paid more).  Also, with increased teacher pay, I also think there should be increased scrutiny.  Bad teachers should be shown the door.  Good teachers should be handsomely rewarded.  Unlike most, I know that standardized testing scores are NOT the way to measure that.   Rather, it would be a myriad of different metrics that should be looked at, some of which will not be apparent until later down the road.  

You talk to me as if I am a Trump supporter.  I have made it abundantly clear that I am not.  However, there are real issues facing this country, and sticking our fingers in our ears or our heads in the sand is not going to make it go away.  There are going to have to be choices that are made.  And some will mean that politicians will lose their jobs.  They are the cowards in that they are not willing to even have those conversations.  We need adults at the table, not our current elected officials.

 

You are posting the same tired bullshit just using more words.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,100]

1 hour ago, hpslugga said:

There's only one way to find out. If and when we attempt that and when we've rectified the evils that we've inflicted upon them, it'll be at that moment that we can say that our hands are clean of this and all that other stuff that you addressed. But we're not in that position, so it's pointless to speak of the issue as if we were. We can only control what we do and until we've gotten our shit straight, we've no right to chastise peoples and governments of other countries. 

You will find no argument from me there. I am very much a proponent of we need to get our own shit straight.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,100]

18 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

You are posting the same tired bullshit just using more words.

Considering I am rarely in this forum, I find that hard to believe.  Again, I think there are some tough questions we need to ask anytime we are looking at adjusting policies, and I think we need politicians that are looking beyond the next election cycle.  That is why meaningful change will never happen.  

The other issue, and we have touched upon it, is that people do not like to be told that their lot in life is their fault.  For many of our poor and uneducated, it is easier to blame the migrants  coming across our southern border than looking in the mirror and facing a hard truth.  There are a lot of people who have been left behind in this country, and it is largely their own fault.  There needs to be a real discussion about these folks as well, and how best to proceed.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,100]

3 hours ago, Js1 said:

Even the ones who come here legally (via employment or family) have to wait sometimes DECADES to become permanent residents and then citizens.  While paying taxes for services they will never get to utilize.  And if they do - BAM, Trump made that a precursor to being denied permanent residency.

Having a near permanent underclass of noncitizens (undocumented or otherwise) propping up our social services and economy, paying taxes while receiving no public assistance or benefits?

I have a lot of friends who came in via employment and family.  I have had to deal with it day in and day out.  I think the fact that they have waited 15+ years to become American citizens is horseshit.  I think we should make it easier for those who want to come and contribute to do so.  I have always thought that. 

[hobbes2702 13,031]

2 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Considering I am rarely in this forum, I find that hard to believe.  Again, I think there are some tough questions we need to ask anytime we are looking at adjusting policies, and I think we need politicians that are looking beyond the next election cycle.  That is why meaningful change will never happen.  

The other issue, and we have touched upon it, is that people do not like to be told that their lot in life is their fault.  For many of our poor and uneducated, it is easier to blame the migrants  coming across our southern border than looking in the mirror and facing a hard truth.  There are a lot of people who have been left behind in this country, and it is largely their own fault.  There needs to be a real discussion about these folks as well, and how best to proceed.  

Oh I should have clarified, you’re using the same tired anti immigration arguments that people have been using for 250 years. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,100]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

Oh I should have clarified, you’re using the same tired anti immigration arguments that people have been using for 250 years. 

Funnily enough, I am not anti-immigration at all.  But I can see that this is a much more complex issue than most make it out to be.  And the fact that a vast majority of this country does not understand those complexities, means that we get the shitty government that just keeps kicking this can down the road. 

Meaningful immigration reform would mean that we change the visa system to a merit based system, similar to what the UK and many European countries have.  We should have a Guest Worker program for those who cannot qualify for a visa.  After so many years on that Guest Worker program, those people become eligible for a visa.   Once you qualify for a Visa.  The clock starts ticking on citizenship.

I would also say that for certain things, non-citizens should be allowed to vote, like many were allowed to do for Brexit.  Hell, I think for local elections, like school district, county judges, and referendums, they should absolutely be able to vote as they are just as impacted as the rest of us.    

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

 

[4th&Five 41,521]

Dems still don’t understand wtf they’re dealing with. 

 

[Dropout 355]

The left leaning members do.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

On 7/9/2019 at 3:28 PM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

 

[Zavala 1,384]

 

[GSU&UT 1,798]

Meanwhile, that facebook group had the fucking head of the Border Patrol in it.

 

[Biff Tannen 45,670]

ICE Director Tom Homan went on a rant in a congressional hearing today where he repeatedly talked about migrants as "aliens".  It was...not a good look, as the woman behind him pointed out by mouthing "stop saying aliens".

start at 4:53

https://www.c-span.org/video/?462505-1/hearing-border-child-separation-policy&start=17623

[ChickenSandwich 9,830]

9th Circuit Court oof appeals hands Sanctuary cities a Loss.

 

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday ruled in favor of the Trump administration's efforts to prioritize federal dollars for local policing to towns and cities that complied with certain immigration policies. 

The ruling, a split 2-1 decision, said the Department of Justice (DOJ) was within its rights to withhold Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS) grants from sanctuary cities and states over their refusal to work with federal immigration enforcement authorities and instead prioritize agencies that focused on unauthorized immigration and agreed to give Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) access to jail records and immigrants in custody. 

 

The city of Los Angeles first sued the administration after it was denied a $3 million grant on the grounds that it did not receive the money because it did not focus on immigration for its community policing grant application. The decision reversed a district court’s ruling.

 

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/452862-9th-circuit-rules-in-favor-of-trump-admin-in-sanctuary-city-case

[WhatTheBuck 28,776]

10 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

ICE Director Tom Homan went on a rant in a congressional hearing today where he repeatedly talked about migrants as "aliens".  It was...not a good look, as the woman behind him pointed out by mouthing "stop saying aliens".

start at 4:53

https://www.c-span.org/video/?462505-1/hearing-border-child-separation-policy&start=17623

He was supposed to say "animals."

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

 

[Biff Tannen 45,670]

Listening to my wife try to explain to her mom why seeking asylum is legal.  All I keep hearing from the phone speaker is "OPEN BORDERS!".  It's not going well.  

[retread 2,951]

^ It's going to be brutal when TrumpRushFox unleash the Socialism label on the D nominee.

[WhatTheBuck 28,776]

2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Listening to my wife try to explain to her mom why seeking asylum is legal.  All I keep hearing from the phone speaker is "OPEN BORDERS!".  It's not going well.  

'You know, you're an adult. Have you ever in your life screamed about "OPEN BORDERS!" before Donald Trump became president? Have you stopped to consider the possibility that you're a weak-minded fool who is easily duped by a two bit con man?'

[Crusher 127]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 11:42 AM, triplehorn said:

Build the Wall ?

 

 

What the fuck does that have to with building a wall?  If anything it bolsters the argument for a wall. One if by land, two if by sea? If you get busted by sea, try another route.

Just be honest.... We have found tunnels , we have caught airplanes, we have caught boats and we have even caught submarines trying to bring illegal drugs to America. It all comes from South America. 

Just be honest.

[Crusher 127]

5 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

He was supposed to say "animals."

He spoke the truth!!! These guys are not trying to hurt the people they apprehend. 

I especially like the part where he points at the Congress and tells them to fix it if they don't like what is happening. The law is their job. If you don't like it change it!!! That is what Congress is supposed to do, that is their job.

Trump is just doing his job as head of the executive branch. Congress needs to start doing their job instead worrying about getting re-elected. 

 

[HtownHorn 14,674]

1 minute ago, Crusher said:

He spoke the truth!!! These guys are not trying to hurt the people they apprehend. 

I especially like the part where he points at the Congress and tells them to fix it if they don't like what is happening. The law is their job. If you don't like it change it!!! That is what Congress is supposed to do, that is their job.

Trump is just doing his job as head of the executive branch. Congress needs to start doing their job instead worrying about getting re-elected. 

 

Someone has to be the bad guy, so lets just throw a bunch of insults at Americans for doing their job, because we can't be the bad guys for our failures to change the laws. Of course, the Dems also want open borders, and there is no way that ever happens.

[hpslugga 4,058]

43 minutes ago, Crusher said:

Just be honest.

You are not interested in that

[Crusher 127]

8 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

You are not interested in that

Actually I am. 

But, I think that all the Demo prospects for President and all the Governor's of sanctuary states are directly to blame for what I think will be a disaster at the border. A lot of people are going to die. We cannot just let thousands of people illegally cross our borders.

Is that what you want? If so why?

[hpslugga 4,058]

43 minutes ago, Crusher said:

Just be honest.

You are not interested in that

[hpslugga 4,058]

6 minutes ago, Crusher said:

Actually I am. 

But, I think that all the Demo prospects for President and all the Governor's of sanctuary states are directly to blame for what I think will be a disaster at the border. A lot of people are going to die. We cannot just let thousands of people illegally cross our borders.

Is that what you want? If so why?

I’ve already illustrated what I want, and I’ve already illustrated why people like you cannot accept reality for what the fuck it is. 

[Crusher 127]

6 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

I’ve already illustrated what I want, and I’ve already illustrated why people like you cannot accept reality for what the fuck it is. 

So, what you want is a war? When you start talking about lack of boundaries people get upset. Now we are talking about property. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Crusher

[hpslugga 4,058]

4 minutes ago, Crusher said:

So, what you want is a war?

I will pay you $5,000 if you can show me any post I’ve made on this website that even vaguely supports that ridiculous straw man argument

[Bama Chick 28,596]

“Just doing their jobs .”

[NowThis 931]

mindboggling that Pence saw this, that BP didn't try to showcase something better, and Pence still spun this as the fault of the Dems in lack of funding

reminds me of this 

Edited July 13, 2019 by NowThis

[Crusher 127]

57 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

I will pay you $5,000 if you can show me any post I’ve made on this website that even vaguely supports that ridiculous straw man argument

This is the one right here. You are so sure that you are right that you can't see what's really happening anymore. That's how wars start.

 

[hpslugga 4,058]

15 minutes ago, Crusher said:

This is the one right here. 

Except it’s not and you’re just making shit up. Also, the idea that you, of all people, have the foggiest clue “what’s really happening” is a flat out fraud.

As I said, I’ve never even remotely stated that I’d like to see some war that you’re fantasizing about, and you’ll never be correct in arguing otherwise.

Edited July 13, 2019 by hpslugga

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Disgraceful.

[ChickenSandwich 9,830]

Still waiting to hear one solution on how to stop 80,000 false asylum claim each month. Lots of reeees, but zero solutions. 

Or open borders. 

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

We don't have 80,000 false asylum claims each month.  And we need to handle the ones who are arriving by devoting more more resources to processing them through the system.   Like more immigration judges, which Trump has resisted, and reinstating and expanding the ankle monitoring program and Family Case Management Program that Trump ended for no good reason.   More broadly, we need immigration reform to provide a legal way for many of these people to enter the country as non-asylees. 

[hpslugga 4,058]

5 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Still waiting to hear one solution on how to stop 80,000 false asylum claim each month. Lots of reeees, but zero solutions. 

Or open borders. 

I’ve already offered them. The fact that you don’t like them doesn’t change that reality and it only further advances my point: people like you would rather live in a fantasy world of Make Believe and Pretend than face reality. 

[Biff Tannen 45,670]

The idea that the president "doing his job" or Americans "doing their jobs" equals concentration camps and ripping kids away from their parents, in many cases FOREVER, is fucking horrifying.  If you think this is what America stands for you are a bad person.  

These are human beings looking for a better life.  They are by and large hard working people who will contribute to our society.  We have room for them and should be working to welcome them and have them start being a part of our great experiment.

We've gone through these times of fear before and I hope we will look back on this time like we do the rest.  Dissenting people were spurred on by fear, but were ultimately proven wrong.  I just wish social media weren't such a good propaganda tool for those dissenters.

[HenryJames 66,038]

I think the most important thing is that we respect the religious convictions of the Vice President.

[DixonHur 11,296]

6 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Still waiting to hear one solution on how to stop 80,000 false asylum claim each month. Lots of reeees, but zero solutions. 

Or open borders. 

4 point plan:

1.) A Marshall Plan style investment in Central America to rebuild what we destroyed.  If you cared to study history, you'd know why it's a mess and why these people are fleeing.

2.) Semi-open borders.  Create a "schengen" zone between North and Central America and make it easy to get a work visa if sponsored by an employer.  Allow market dynamics to govern employment, but raise the federal minimum wage to prevent slave wages.

Fun fact: did you know that the concept of open borders is a Libertarian ideal, not a liberal one?

3.) Medicare for all citizens and legal residents, with cost-plus care for all others.

4.) Legalize, regulate and tax all drugs.  Use the proceeds and savings (DEA war on drugs, domestic law enforcement, courts, prisons, etc.) To pay for addiction treatment research and care.

Bonus result: significantly fewer African Americans in prison due to drugs and gang activity will help improve racial incarceration disparities, and the economy at large.

That should be a good start.

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by DixonHur
Removed? That didn't belong