DACA, immigration reform whatever

[RomaVicta 29,593]

1 hour ago, NowThis said:

so what is your solution RV? Everyone can complain about the status quo, no one has answers. Let you be the second (i was the first). 

So, if the US decides that those seeking asylum should be detained and burned alive, just complaining about that status quo doesn't really mean much? This is your new low level of argument? 

I prefer the status quo prior to Trump's decision to detain all asylum seekers and subject them to concentration camps while stealing their children. The Family Case Management Program was a far better policy where asylum seekers showed up for adjudication of their cases. I made a link so that you and your pals can look at it.

The status quo prior to FCMP raised ire in the electorate. That administration responded with a solution. Whomever complained about that status quo (I wasn't really aware of it to be honest) back then prompted a solution that they likely had not thought of themselves.

You see, in a republic, the voters count on elected officials to represent their interests and make policy accordingly.

Voters once said, "We're not doing enough about AIDS. Get busy on that!" I doubt that any of them knew the chemicals that would need to be combined to create the cocktails that have changed the immediate death sentence that that disease used to be.

Please continue to compare the Obama and Trump administration's approach to dealing with a larger than normal influx of asylum seekers.  Be more thorough, fair, and balanced. Try to get beyond the part where they were both presented with problems and proceed to the parts where they react.

You may now board the express train to Hell. Bon voyage.

[RomaVicta 29,593]

6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Anyone else ready to support violent insurrection against ICE facilities like the one undertaken by Emma Durutti (deadname Willem van Spronson)?

As we treat social media as politics, others are taking the defense of innocent people to the streets. For or against, start deciding which side you're on now.

I'm not there. This act was indiscriminate. I'm guessing the ICE spokesperson is lying about the threat to detainees, but I wouldn't support harming random ICE agents in protest. Even specific agents should have to answer in court for any misdeeds.

So, no. Violence may have a place at some point, but this isn't the time or place.

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

49 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I still don’t understand how we can logistically house, feed, administrate that many immigrants a month? 

The cool thing about human beings is that they usually figure out a way to do that for themselves. 

[bad_teammate 13,022]

1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

I'm not there. This act was indiscriminate. I'm guessing the ICE spokesperson is lying about the threat to detainees, but I wouldn't support harming random ICE agents in protest. Even specific agents should have to answer in court for any misdeeds.

I don't think the purpose was to harm ICE agents. That's easy enough to do with an AR-15 (which the bomber had made "ghost" style). From the manifesto and description of events, it seems like an attempt to disable buses and damage infrastructure. Weathermen-style stuff is how the left does violent insurrection, not mass slaughter of human life.

I also would oppose the indiscriminate murder of ICE agents. Physical destruction of infrastructure? I'm 100% supportive of that.

If we start getting mass deaths out of these camps? I'm cool with both.

Quote

So, no. Violence may have a place at some point, but this isn't the time or place.

When and where? I'm not arguing that the attempted bomber was right, but it would be useful to have a framework to build from because popular opinion (read "common sense") will always tell you that violence is wrong, even when they're stuffing more bodies into the gas chambers.

We often approach these things as if we live outside of history, and as a result, inflection points can pass us by. I can absolutely see this inspiring copycats.

[NowThis 931]

13 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

1. So, if the US decides that those seeking asylum should be detained and burned alive, just complaining about that status quo doesn't really mean much? This is your new low level of argument? 

I prefer the status quo prior to Trump's decision to detain all asylum seekers and subject them to concentration camps while stealing their children. The Family Case Management Program was a far better policy where asylum seekers showed up for adjudication of their cases. I made a link so that you and your pals can look at it.

The status quo prior to FCMP raised ire in the electorate. That administration responded with a solution. Whomever complained about that status quo (I wasn't really aware of it to be honest) back then prompted a solution that they likely had not thought of themselves.

You see, in a republic, the voters count on elected officials to represent their interests and make policy accordingly.

Voters once said, "We're not doing enough about AIDS. Get busy on that!" I doubt that any of them knew the chemicals that would need to be combined to create the cocktails that have changed the immediate death sentence that that disease used to be.

Please continue to compare the Obama and Trump administration's approach to dealing with a larger than normal influx of asylum seekers.  Be more thorough, fair, and balanced. Try to get beyond the part where they were both presented with problems and proceed to the parts where they react.

You may now board the express train to Hell. Bon voyage.

no one is being burned alive AFAIK.  If they were, then "don't burn them alive, give them citizenship" would be a good policy. Simply asking for a plan does not make for a new low level of argument.  Don't be so silly.

The 2008-2016 years saw too many deportations, Obama was too harsh as well.  Did Obama deport more than any President in history? 

 

 

and so many were non-criminals 

 

whatever happened to welcoming arms, the Statue of Liberty?  Give us your tired, your guys with 40" verticals? 

[RomaVicta 29,593]

14 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I don't think the purpose was to harm ICE agents. That's easy enough to do with an AR-15 (which the bomber had made "ghost" style). From the manifesto and description of events, it seems like an attempt to disable buses and damage infrastructure. Weathermen-style stuff is how the left does violent insurrection, not mass slaughter of human life.

I also would oppose the indiscriminate murder of ICE agents. Physical destruction of infrastructure? I'm 100% supportive of that.

If we start getting mass deaths out of these camps? I'm cool with both.

When and where? I'm not arguing that the attempted bomber was right, but it would be useful to have a framework to build from because popular opinion (read "common sense") will always tell you that violence is wrong, even when they're stuffing more bodies into the gas chambers.

We often approach these things as if we live outside of history, and as a result, inflection points can pass us by. I can absolutely see this inspiring copycats.

Interesting post. 

I thought I'd read that the attacker had explosives in the car.

Attacking an infrastructure that supports an evil policy is subtler. The vandals would be subject to the law. If they're willing to face that if caught, my heart says more power to them. On the other hand, I think there are more effective demonstrations of protest. A large crowd blocking buses by laying on the road might be good. A constant vigil outside the cams might do something.

Admittedly, these forms of peaceful protests have been diluted of their meaning over the decades. People generally don't take much notice. The women's march in opposition to Trump was a good moment, but there has been no repeat. I'm actually surprised by that.

I will further admit that I would likely cheer the slashing of ICE tires, doxing agents who said terrible things on the facebook page, paint balloons on government vehicles, and other resistance at that level. I'm not sure that I take the right position, but it sure feels right.

These actions against the many insidious arms of the Trump administration may be a good next step. If it comes to violence, at least the better side will have practiced for it.

Edited July 14, 2019 by RomaVicta

[DixonHur 10,863]

I don't recall you Trumpkins supporting Obama's immigration policy.  

I wonder why.  Was it the tan suit or the black skin?

[RomaVicta 29,593]

4 minutes ago, NowThis said:

no one is being burned alive AFAIK.  If they were, then "don't burn them alive, give them citizenship" would be a good policy. Simply asking for a plan does not make for a new low level of argument.  Don't be so silly.

Yea, I'll work on that.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,488]

No, the "tonks" aren't getting burned alive. That would be bad.

[RDCanecutter 26,013]

9 hours ago, Enchubben said:

 

The funny thing about this, and by funny I mean sad, is that

1. The dudes raising that Mexican flag are probably scared shitless of visiting actual Mexico,

2. The people locked inside probably are not Mexican, and probably had a shitty time if they were ever there, and despise that flag, and

3. Actual Mexicans in Actual Mexico are probably puzzled by this.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,488]

53 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I don't recall you Trumpkins supporting Obama's immigration policy.  

I wonder why.  Was it the tan suit or the black skin?

Priorities. 

 

And Obama's shortcomings and subsequent rectifications regarding immigration have already been addressed, and likely will continue to be addressed until Trumpkins slowly dribble off, give up on the false equivalencies efforts and move on to ignoring other questions that would enlighten the rest of the world to what they specifically support.

[RDCanecutter 26,013]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

I don't think the purpose was to harm ICE agents. That's easy enough to do with an AR-15 (which the bomber had made "ghost" style). From the manifesto and description of events, it seems like an attempt to disable buses and damage infrastructure. Weathermen-style stuff is how the left does violent insurrection, not mass slaughter of human life.

The Weathermen were ready to bomb the O-club at Fort Drum (?) with officers and wives inside, but their bomb maker fucked up and blowed up himself, another girl, and their entire house.

After that, they got more peaceful

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,488]

...and then the Bannons of the world will come swoooping in claiming the left just doesn't get it because they refuse to listen to Trump supporters.

[RomaVicta 29,593]

17 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

The funny thing about this, and by funny I mean sad, is that

1. The dudes raising that Mexican flag are probably scared shitless of visiting actual Mexico,

2. The people locked inside probably are not Mexican, and probably had a shitty time if they were ever there, and despise that flag, and

3. Actual Mexicans in Actual Mexico are probably puzzled by this.

Yea. Shoulda raised the Guatemalan flag since that's the paradise Trump wants to send them to via cattle car. There, their work will set them free! 

Edited July 14, 2019 by RomaVicta

[NowThis 931]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Yea, I'll work on that.

no one is burning people alive, this isn't about ISIS but ICE baby.  All true liberals must maximize a humane flow of migrants to this land of migrants. We must eliminate deportations except for known criminals (but how to know?) and do away with ankle locks which are a form of slavery and dehumanize the person who is going to be a US citizen in a few years anyway. Seriously, wtf is the purpose of the ankle monitor? 

[David Dennison 17,815]

3 minutes ago, NowThis said:

no one is burning people alive, this isn't about ISIS but ICE baby.  All true liberals must maximize a humane flow of migrants to this land of migrants. We must eliminate deportations except for known criminals (but how to know?) and do away with ankle locks which are a form of slavery and dehumanize the person who is going to be a US citizen in a few years anyway. Seriously, wtf is the purpose of the ankle monitor? 

To monitor.

[NowThis 931]

Just now, David Dennison said:

To monitor.

to monitor innocent people as they roam across the US? This is not a good use of taxpayer $.  I am for the total elimination of ICE, do you want to do the same? 

[RomaVicta 29,593]

14 minutes ago, NowThis said:

no one is burning people alive, this isn't about ISIS but ICE baby.  All true liberals must maximize a humane flow of migrants to this land of migrants. We must eliminate deportations except for known criminals (but how to know?) and do away with ankle locks which are a form of slavery and dehumanize the person who is going to be a US citizen in a few years anyway. Seriously, wtf is the purpose of the ankle monitor? 

I won't engage with someone who doesn't understand metaphor.

[NowThis 931]

4 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I won't engage with someone who doesn't understand metaphor.

oh i understand metaphor, but we need to go beyond silliness into reality and substance. Do you have the time and energy for that? 

[WhatTheBuck 28,633]

55 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

...and then the Bannons of the world will come swoooping in claiming the left just doesn't get it because they refuse to listen to Trump supporters.

We've heard it all before. 

[bad_teammate 13,022]

Always fun when Canecutter's mask slips

[RomaVicta 29,593]

1 hour ago, NowThis said:

oh i understand metaphor

So, you suppose that I believe that persons are being burned alive or that that is a serious proposal? You're obtuse. Flit away now. We're done.

[bad_teammate 13,022]

Hey @RomaVicta I forgot to say that post above to me was really thoughtful and awesome. Thanks.

[David Dennison 17,815]

1 hour ago, NowThis said:

to monitor innocent people as they roam across the US? This is not a good use of taxpayer $.  I am for the total elimination of ICE, do you want to do the same? 

Yes. 

[retread 2,951]

From last summer (Family Case Management Program)

 https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/obama-era-pilot-program-kept-asylum-seeking-migrant-families-together-n885896

Quote

According to The Associated Press, cost the government $36 per day per family. By the end, it served 954 people in total, according to a 2017 Department of Homeland Security Inspector General report.

Trump has slammed policies or programs that let undocumented immigrants live in the country while awaiting immigration proceedings, using the term "catch and release" to decry the protections afforded to children and families seeking asylum in the U.S. and inaccurately claiming that the laws force ICE to release dangerous criminals.

Quote

Detaining the families who cross the U.S.-Mexico border illegally — even if they request asylum, as many have under the Trump administration's new "zero tolerance" policy — is more expensive than any monitoring method. Keeping families together can cost nearly $300 per person, per day. Detaining migrant children separately from their parents can cost as much as $775 per day in the tent cities the Trump administration has rushed to construct to handle the surge of children removed from their parents.

Edited July 15, 2019 by retread

[bad_teammate 13,022]

Fucking AMEN

 

[Jim Tom Pinch 120]

On 7/13/2019 at 11:45 PM, David Dennison said:

Wrong.

Not wrong at all. But keep fucking that chicken.

[Jim Tom Pinch 120]

23 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

It's like being sent to Gitmo for a traffic violation. 

Actually, it’s nothing like that. But I understand that it’s important to liberals that it be framed that way due to your need to import votes to prop up your morally and intellectually bankrupt ideology.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,488]

19 minutes ago, Jim Tom Pinch said:

Actually, it’s nothing like that. But I understand that it’s important to liberals that it be framed that way due to your need to import votes to prop up your morally and intellectually bankrupt ideology.

Do you agree with the president there were 3 to 5 million illegal voters in the last presidential election?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,247]

13 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

The funny thing about this, and by funny I mean sad, is that

1. The dudes raising that Mexican flag are probably scared shitless of visiting actual Mexico,

2. The people locked inside probably are not Mexican, and probably had a shitty time if they were ever there, and despise that flag, and

3. Actual Mexicans in Actual Mexico are probably puzzled by this.

This is one of those stories that looks like it was staged.  I mean, raise a Mexican flag?  It’s just all too dumb and sells so perfectly for propaganda purposes to the right.

  It would also be incredibly easy to stage.  I’d love to see some follow up reporting on this and perhaps and interview with the guy raising the flag.  Find out what his motivations were because if you’re going to raise a flag, an upside down American flag makes more sense. 

[JimmyJames 12,267]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This is one of those stories that looks like it was staged.  I mean, raise a Mexican flag?  It’s just all too dumb and sells so perfectly for propaganda purposes to the right.

  It would also be incredibly easy to stage.  I’d love to see some follow up reporting on this and perhaps and interview with the guy raising the flag.  Find out what his motivations were because if you’re going to raise a flag, an upside down American flag makes more sense. 

I can pretty much guarantee you it was staged. 

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

Great thread

 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4,962]

17 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

The funny thing about this, and by funny I mean sad, is that

1. The dudes raising that Mexican flag are probably scared shitless of visiting actual Mexico,

2. The people locked inside probably are not Mexican, and probably had a shitty time if they were ever there, and despise that flag, and

3. Actual Mexicans in Actual Mexico are probably puzzled by this.

Heck, even this gringo has tried to convince his mexican coworker that going to the interior of Mexico is relatively safe. But to be fair, my coworker's family is from Tamaulipas and has had multiple family members abducted and or killed. His wife, though is from San Miguel de Allende where your biggest problem is getting ripped off by high prices. 

[workswithseed 2,012]

 

[retread 2,951]

38 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Great thread

 

Quote

Peter Sagal @petersagal

The first programs he put in place, broadly known as the Nuremberg laws, were designed to isolate and segregate German Jews from the general population and civil life, as well as expropriating their wealth... forcing them to emigrate.

As as we might say today, "self-deport."

And many German Jews did, in fact, do so. This is why one of the ironies of the Holocaust is that a minority of the victims of this German genocide were German Jews.

It wasn't until the Nazis invaded Poland, and then western Russia, with its vast Jewish populations, that the "Jewish problem" became so acute that the Nazis came up with the "final solution." I mean, there were too many! Where were they supposed to go?

It's a commonplace that a genocide starts slowly with a program of dehumanization, segregation, alienation. But it's not part of some conscious secret plot. Many good Germans, who later on manned the chambers, would have been horrified at the thought of mass murder in, say, 1936.

But once you've decided a population is a threat to the majority, once you've successfully denied them civil and human rights, eventually you run up against a problem: there's just too many of them. What do you do then?

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by retread

[retread 2,951]

 

[Bama Chick 28,595]

Good. Fuck those assholes.

[Captainant 26,927]

16 minutes ago, retread said:

 

That's a pretty clear-cut violation of the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, of which the United States is a signatory along with nearly every other member of the UN. Specifically along article 3 of the binding international treaty that's been in place since the 50s, ya know "when america was great".

[Bozo_Casanova 25,945]

Never mind I’m not interested

[RDCanecutter 26,013]

4 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Heck, even this gringo has tried to convince his mexican coworker that going to the interior of Mexico is relatively safe. But to be fair, my coworker's family is from Tamaulipas and has had multiple family members abducted and or killed. His wife, though is from San Miguel de Allende where your biggest problem is getting ripped off by high prices. 

You and your coworker may both be right. Mexican cops treat people who look Mexican like an ATM but get all respectable when a gringo rolls through. For added fun travel with a gringa who's Italian or somesuch that they assume is Mexican until she opens her mouth, then you get to see them do mental whiplash.

I suppose the criminals work the same way the cops do since they are business partners. I follow the My Blue Heaven "Tip Everybody" policy, because they may only have time to kidnap one person that day, and maybe the halcon doesn't happen to point you out to the snatch-n-grab squad.

San Miguel de Allende was real pretty and the place to go if you need to satisfy your Big Retired White Woman in a Frida Tshirt fetish. There was the gringo discount on everything. I was there with white Mexicans who descend from a Scotsman who went down there 100 years ago and reproduced. We ordered tequila and the waiter brought us rum. Daddy White Mexican let rip with commentary in that same clipped accent as AMLO uses, things got sorted out, and we got tequila.

Probably with spit in it.

[workswithseed 2,012]

56 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Never mind I’m not interested

Okay. 

[4th&Five 41,246]

Obama built them I’m just overfilling them! It’s not my fault!

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,247]

 

[Biff Tannen 45,237]

On 7/15/2019 at 3:55 PM, 4th&Five said:

Obama built them I’m just overfilling them! It’s not my fault!

 

Problem is, this is all the right needs to believe it.  Propaganda achieved.

[JimmyJames 12,267]

23 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Problem is, this is all the right needs to believe it.  Propaganda achieved.

Fuck the right and what they believe. Stop worrying about the minority of shitbags that support the shitstain in chief. Their opinion does not matter. They cannot win without cheating. Worry more about the latter part where their corrupt leaders try to cheat to win. The opinion of those trump supporting people is completely irrelevant. Wish it wasn’t true but it is. 

[Biff Tannen 45,237]

1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

Fuck the right and what they believe. Stop worrying about the minority of shitbags that support the shitstain in chief. Their opinion does not matter. They cannot win without cheating. Worry more about the latter part where their corrupt leaders try to cheat to win. The opinion of those trump supporting people is completely irrelevant. Wish it wasn’t true but it is. 

Well they are related.  If the corrupt leaders think they have enough support to get away with it, they will continue.  You don't get to cheat and win without a sizeable part of the electorate letting you do it.

[JimmyJames 12,267]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

Well they are related.  If the corrupt leaders think they have enough support to get away with it, they will continue.  You don't get to cheat and win without a sizeable part of the electorate letting you do it.

The corrupt republican leaders have enough support to get away with it and they will continue. It is up to the democrats to make sure they don’t and that necessarily means they “send lawyers, guns and money.”The only branch of the Republican Party that is not completely corrupt at this point is the federal courts.  

[Jim Tom Pinch 120]

On 7/15/2019 at 12:33 AM, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

Do you agree with the president there were 3 to 5 million illegal voters in the last presidential election?

I have no idea how many illegal aliens voted in the last election. Are you dumb enough to believe none did?

[Fozzz 152]

Our shock troops have a pretty sick sense of humor.

 

 

[hayden_horn 11,311]

rep elijah cummings is one of my favorite congressmen:

this really is must-see video