DACA, immigration reform whatever

[XR4ticlone 122]

50 minutes ago, scottsins said:

 

Re: 4B people who “would no doubt love to come here”, WTF does that have to do with the actual issue being discussed? Is this thread a debate with one side advocating truly open borders? Cite, please.

Cite the leftist advocating for controlled borders, law enforcement, or against Sanctuary Cities.  I mean other than the ones running for office...because regardless of what you think the American people evidently don't want all of this or Dems wouldn't run on closing the borders.

No one in America is asking these people to come here. 

US Law clearly states they are not welcome to come here illegally.

They're fleeing from shit holes where they face death?  Then why is air conditioned, three hots and a cot considered a concentration camp? 

 

[kevwun 15,774]

Now that is some fine hyperbole.

[zork 629]

3 hours ago, HtownHorn said:

I know this will come as a shock to most of you, but under the Obama administration immigrant children were turned over to human traffickers because of lack of due diligence on their part.

To those of you who were saying Obama didn't separate families, well these people don't believe you.

 

How can this be possible?  Just send them to Rio Grande instead:

https://www.google.com/maps/@-53.7782916,-67.7340832,12z?hl=en

[hobbes2702 13,032]

5 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Cmon buddy, simple question. Should be a simple answer. 

Nothing is simple when you don’t understand the difference between facts and falsehoods

[TornACL 7,698]

59 minutes ago, scottsins said:

 

 

Re: 4B people who “would no doubt love to come here”, WTF does that have to do with the actual issue being discussed? Is this thread a debate with one side advocating truly open borders? Cite, please.

 

He's gone back to that tired talking point over and over and over again despite every attempt to steer him towards the actual discussion.

For Clone it's either violate human rights or let everyone in freely. There is no in between. No gray area. I haven't decided if that's because he lacks the intelligence to contemplate gray areas, or if he's just blinded by racism. As of right now, my money is on "both".

 

[Dahobbs 17,534]

There are degrees of wrong. But there are not degrees of evil. Evil is evil. And everyone who supports, condones, or deflects from the evil of this policy is evil. 

[atomheartbevo 89,652]

36 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

Jesus, I can't believe there are still people out there wanting to charge THIS particular hill for the cheeto bandito.  It's okay to support most of the man's policies and still have the balls to speak out when he's dead wrong.  That's not my particular stance, but you spineless fucks do realize that's a possibility here right?

There is a reason why TexAgs, and aggy in general, love Trump.  Condition a group of people enough, and they will charge any hill for you. 

[Dahobbs 17,534]

6 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

Cite the leftist advocating for controlled borders, law enforcement, or against Sanctuary Cities.  I mean other than the ones running for office...because regardless of what you think the American people evidently don't want all of this or Dems wouldn't run on closing the borders.

No one in America is asking these people to come here. 

US Law clearly states they are not welcome to come here illegally.

They're fleeing from shit holes where they face death?  Then why is air conditioned, three hots and a cot considered a concentration camp? 

 

Terrible human being. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,583]

7 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

Cite the leftist advocating for controlled borders, law enforcement, or against Sanctuary Cities.  I mean other than the ones running for office...because regardless of what you think the American people evidently don't want all of this or Dems wouldn't run on closing the borders.

No one in America is asking these people to come here. 

US Law clearly states they are not welcome to come here illegally.

They're fleeing from shit holes where they face death?  Then why is air conditioned, three hots and a cot considered a concentration camp? 

 

Just for the record, I am not liking this. How does the internet work?

[BabaYaga 15,290]

1 hour ago, Pig Bellmont said:

That’s not at all what I said or analogous to criminally charging everyone crossing the border, even asylum seekers, resulting in children being ripped from their parents by the thousands. Fuck you and fuck your bullshit rationalizations. Congrats tho - you can report to your Russian troll farm that you really pwned some libs. Meanwhile infants and toddlers are kept in detention centers and little or no effort is made by the government to reunite the families when the parents are released. The government can’t even accurately account for every separated child. It’s unconstitutional, inhumane, and you are a shit person. 

"Ripped from their parents" - congratulations, you even got the nomenclature of the talking point down.  Again, isn't it convenient that this is an issue "now".  Disingenuous bullshit is what it is.  Where was your selective outrage when the Human Impact Partners published their study in 2013 citing an estimated 150,000 children were separated from their parents in 2012 alone.  The majority under the age of 10.  So they devolve into an argument of semantics on where they are separated rather than the fact of separation.  Families were still separated, but it was "different".  Housing children with adults in detention centers - which the previous administration was warned were havens of sexual attacks and depravity.  Or the terrifying "Chase and Scatter" tactics designed to break up travelling groups, resulting in children dying or being abandoned in the wilderness.  Obama built a massive deportation machine, which involved the systematic detention of children and separation of families. Advocates organized against the administration on these issues for years - and not a fucking peep from the sycophants on this board.  This went on for almost a decade.  So no, this isn't nor ever has been about justification - but calling out the selective rage bullshit this board loves to hop on to now than gun control is dying back, the blue wave is dwindling, and the Dem's desperately need another topic before the midterms.

 

 

[Pancho 44,759]

 

[Celery Man 20,934]

9 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

Cite the leftist advocating for controlled borders, law enforcement, or against Sanctuary Cities.  I mean other than the ones running for office...because regardless of what you think the American people evidently don't want all of this or Dems wouldn't run on closing the borders.

No one in America is asking these people to come here. 

US Law clearly states they are not welcome to come here illegally.

They're fleeing from shit holes where they face death?  Then why is air conditioned, three hots and a cot considered a concentration camp? 

 

I've avoided the concentration camp thing just out of Godwin's law (it's tough though), but I think the issue is the taking children away from parents thing that continues to be the topic of this discussion.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,583]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

"Ripped from their parents" - congratulations, you even got the nomenclature of the talking point down.  Again, isn't it convenient that this is an issue "now".  

 

Yep. When it started happening and which you've had countless opportunities to refute. 

 

Weird. 

[atomheartbevo 89,652]

16 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

There aren't many, but I too am stupefied that there are posters here defending this practice. 

It happens. Mack had his defenders after 5-7.  Even Kevin Rumlin had his defenders on TexAgs towards the end. 

Once you dig a deep enough hole, you start to think there’s no reason to stop. Look at Trump on twitter.  He doesn’t realize how guilty his tweets make him look.  He also doesn’t realize that few believe him. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by atomheartbevo

[RandomIdoit 655]

Just now, Celery Man said:

I've avoided the concentration camp thing just out of Godwin's law (it's tough though), but I think the issue is the taking children away from parents thing that continues to be the topic of this discussion.

Do not separate them. Do not put them in detention centers. Do not let them roam free in the US before their court date. Can we agree on this?

[SmokeyTheBear 5,562]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

"Ripped from their parents" - congratulations, you even got the nomenclature of the talking point down.  Again, isn't it convenient that this is an issue "now".  Disingenuous bullshit is what it is.  Where was your selective outrage when the Human Impact Partners published their study in 2013 citing an estimated 150,000 children were separated from their parents in 2012 alone.  The majority under the age of 10.  So they devolve into an argument of semantics on where they are separated rather than the fact of separation.  Families were still separated, but it was "different".  Housing children with adults in detention centers - which the previous administration was warned were havens of sexual attacks and depravity.  Or the terrifying "Chase and Scatter" tactics designed to break up travelling groups, resulting in children dying or being abandoned in the wilderness.  Obama built a massive deportation machine, which involved the systematic detention of children and separation of families. Advocates organized against the administration on these issues for years - and not a fucking peep from the sycophants on this board.  This went on for almost a decade.  So no, this isn't nor ever has been about justification - but calling out the selective rage bullshit this board loves to hop on to now than gun control is dying back, the blue wave is dwindling, and the Dem's desperately need another topic before the midterms.

 

 

You know what could undercut this talking point? Trump changing the "law" without conditions. He could be a hero in all this if it is as you say. He could come out on TV and say, "We found a law from Obama that is so unethical, so immoral that we had to change it right away for the good of these kids. Regardless of their parents transgressions." Instead we get, "This serves as a good deterrent to immigration" and "give me my wall, and i'll stop having to do this act". 

[Celery Man 20,934]

3 minutes ago, RandomIdoit said:

Do not separate them. Do not put them in detention centers. Do not let them roam free in the US before their court date. Can we agree on this?

Strong agree on one.  Let's just go ahead and start there, and discuss the other two issues separately so as to avoid the appearance that children are being held hostage from their parents to advance an agenda, any agenda, on immigration reform.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Celery Man

[BabaYaga 15,290]

2 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Strong agree on one.  Let's just go ahead and start there, and discuss the other two issues separately so as to avoid the appearance that children are being held hostage from their parents to advance an agenda, any agenda, on immigration reform.

Then where are thousands of people going to be housed?  Break down those logistics for us then?

[Spankytoes 1,739]

I am so torn on this issue…

Obviously, the idea of kids being ripped from their parents is abhorrent. The kids should not have to bear any consequences for their parent’s actions, even if their heart was in the right place to make a better life for their family.

However, that’s an emotionally charged distraction for people knowingly, willingly and blatantly trying to circumvent the established immigration procedures set by Federal Law. We have a process that a lot of people are not willing to follow because it’s inconvenient and expensive. Yes, we are a nation of immigrants and America should be the light that leads this charge. However, the time for mass undocumented immigration here ended a long time ago. If a family does illegally enter this country, they will also have to illegally gain employment to support themselves while the vast majority of the time not paying taxes and benefiting from a pay-in system setup to aid citizens and legal residents. It absolutely astonishes me how many people love the Constitution but forget the implications of the 3^rd Amendment because it’s not their OWN house.  I feel terrible if a husband murders his wife leaving young children behind. But we don’t campaign for the husband to be pardoned for his actions due to the welfare of the children.

Trump said that DACA was going to be repealed when he was campaigning. Homeland Security announced the intentions to repeal last July. Whether you agree with that decision or not, which is 100% legal to rescind, it shouldn’t be a surprise. There is a large contingent, myself included, that does not agree with what DACA stands for. Either you have a law that’s enforceable for all or you don’t. You are supposed to close loopholes in the law, not create them for flexibility…especially when it deals with foreign citizens.

But, I have a heart, and a family, too. That's what makes it complicated. It's easy to armchair QB when you're not affected directly.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Spankytoes

[F250 28,767]

Equinox just marched in here and threw down the gauntlet by dropping his drawers and then began furiously fingering his asshole. Although that wasnt enough, he then started shoving multiple fingers in there to the horror of everyone else. When people protested by saying it was unsanitary, he started licking his fingers saying shit was really chocolate. All the while laughing and giving the finger to everyone looking, giggling as he mumbled "a peanut, chocolate and peanuts, mmm."

 

 

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

"Ripped from their parents" - congratulations, you even got the nomenclature of the talking point down.  Again, isn't it convenient that this is an issue "now".  Disingenuous bullshit is what it is.  Where was your selective outrage when the Human Impact Partners published their study in 2013 citing an estimated 150,000 children were separated from their parents in 2012 alone.  The majority under the age of 10.  So they devolve into an argument of semantics on where they are separated rather than the fact of separation.  Families were still separated, but it was "different".  Housing children with adults in detention centers - which the previous administration was warned were havens of sexual attacks and depravity.  Or the terrifying "Chase and Scatter" tactics designed to break up travelling groups, resulting in children dying or being abandoned in the wilderness.  Obama built a massive deportation machine, which involved the systematic detention of children and separation of families. Advocates organized against the administration on these issues for years - and not a fucking peep from the sycophants on this board.  This went on for almost a decade.  So no, this isn't nor ever has been about justification - but calling out the selective rage bullshit this board loves to hop on to now than gun control is dying back, the blue wave is dwindling, and the Dem's desperately need another topic before the midterms.

 

 

It took you all day to come up with yet another inapposite stat.   We're still waiting for you to answer the questions posed hours ago.  How many children arriving at the border with their parents were separated under Obama?   And how can you maintain that this is the same policy Obama had while also arguing that Obama let families loose on the street instead of locking up the parents and separating the children? 

[RandomIdoit 655]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Then where are thousands of people going to be housed?  Break down those logistics for us then?

Mexico can grant them a temporary visa (in addition to the travel visas they already are granting) and let them live there until their court date. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,583]

America was a quark under Obama.

[atomheartbevo 89,652]

1 minute ago, Spankytoes said:

I am so torn on this issue…

Obviously, the idea of kids being ripped from their parents is abhorrent. The kids should not have to bear any consequences for their parent’s actions, even if their heart was in the right place to make a better life for their family.

However, that’s an emotionally charged deterrent for people knowingly, willingly and blatantly trying to circumvent the established immigration procedures set by Federal Law. We have a process that a lot of people are not willing to follow because it’s inconvenient and expensive. 

The risk of death is not a deterrent for these people.  Last year, three hundred or so died near the border. And that’s mostly people looking to mow lawns or build houses, not the asylum seekers who are more desperate to escape their situation. 

[BabaYaga 15,290]

1 minute ago, Mojo Hand said:

It took you all day to come up with yet another inapposite stat.   We're still waiting for you to answer the questions posed hours ago.  How many children arriving at the border with their parents were separated under Obama?   And how can you maintain that this is the same policy Obama had while also arguing that Obama let families loose on the street instead of locking up the parents and separating the children? 

Read the fucking study instead of playing semantics.  You like to posit what they did was "different".  That the 25,000 children detained in 80 centers is irrelevant.  That the estimated 150,000 children separated from their families in 2012 never fucking happened.   

[Celery Man 20,934]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Then where are thousands of people going to be housed?  Break down those logistics for us then?

Is there a logistical benefit that is gained from removing the children from their families?

[BabaYaga 15,290]

3 minutes ago, RandomIdoit said:

Mexico can grant them a temporary visa (in addition to the travel visas they already are granting) and let them live there until their court date. 

They can.  They won't.

[David Dennison 18,854]

1 minute ago, RandomIdoit said:

Mexico can grant them a temporary visa (in addition to the travel visas they already are granting) and let them live there until their court date. 

Why would they do that when it's not their problem?

[Spankytoes 1,739]

Just now, atomheartbevo said:

The risk of death is not a deterrent for these people.  Last year, three hundred or so died near the border. And that’s mostly people looking to mow lawns or build houses, not the asylum seekers who are more desperate to escape their situation. 

That was my bad. I meant to put "distraction". Had "D" on the brain.

Wait...

[Js1 85,313]

7 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

However, that’s an emotionally charged distraction for people knowingly, willingly and blatantly trying to circumvent the established immigration procedures set by Federal Law. We have a process that a lot of people are not willing to follow because it’s inconvenient and expensive.

Many of these families are trying to legally claim asylum and being denied the ability to even enter at the Port of Entry  in order to legally do so.

They are willingly and blatantly circumventing established procedures because CBP/DHS are NOT LETTING THEM GO ABOUT THE LEGAL WAY DO IT.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,583]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Read the fucking study instead of playing semantics.  You like to posit what they did was "different".  That the 25,000 children detained in 80 centers is irrelevant.  That the estimated 150,000 c"hildren separated from their families in 2012 never fucking happened.   

Okaayyyy……"fuck those numbers I brought up!"

[RandomIdoit 655]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Why would they do that when it's not their problem?

They are complicit in the immigration problem. They give them visas to allow them to travel through Mexico. Why is Mexico not granting them asylum? Are we going to play the "not our problem" game? If so, how are these immigrants the US's problem?

Edited June 18, 2018 by RandomIdoit

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Read the fucking study instead of playing semantics.  You like to posit what they did was "different".  That the 25,000 children detained in 80 centers is irrelevant.  That the estimated 150,000 children separated from their families in 2012 never fucking happened.   

I read the study.  I have it open in front of me right now.    It isn't a study.  It's a rough estimate based on several identified limitations and assumptions, and in any event has nothing to do with border separation policy.   I'll be glad to discuss further, once you tell us how many children were separated from their parents at the border by means of illegal entry charges under Obama, as well as how that argument squares with your contradictory claim that Obama let families loose on the streets instead of separating them.

What are the answers to those questions you refuse to answer? 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Mojo Hand

[BabaYaga 15,290]

Just now, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

Okaayyyy……"fuck those numbers I brought up!"

Yes.  Let's ignore tens of thousands of separations by one administration and focus on separations of another and then get all fucking pissed off about it right before a critical election cycle!

[BabaYaga 15,290]

Just now, RandomIdoit said:

how are these immigrants the US's problem?

Votes....

[BabaYaga 15,290]

1 minute ago, Mojo Hand said:

separated from their parents at the border

Like I said, semantics...

[Spankytoes 1,739]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

Many of these families are trying to legally claim asylum and being denied the ability to even enter at the Port of Entry  in order to legally do so.

They are willingly and blatantly circumventing established procedures because CBP/DHS are NOT LETTING THEM GO ABOUT THE LEGAL WAY DO IT.

"Procedure" is not law. Procedure can change at any time, especially with a 6 month window for adaption. Law has to go through the process bound in the Constitution. (Insert your favorite Schoolhouse Rocks video here) The law, as of September 2017, is being followed.

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Like I said, semantics...

So zero that fit my "semantics"?   None? 

[WhatTheBuck 28,776]

Damn, the Trump trolls are out in force today. 

[Pig Bellmont 8,713]

4 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

It took you all day to come up with yet another inapposite stat.   We're still waiting for you to answer the questions posed hours ago.  How many children arriving at the border with their parents were separated under Obama?   And how can you maintain that this is the same policy Obama had while also arguing that Obama let families loose on the street instead of locking up the parents and separating the children? 

The “whataboutism” withers with any scrutiny, and no, the policies enacted since this April are not the same as those under Obama. But he knows that. He’s being intellectually dishonest to distract from the thousands of innocent children, some as young as 8 months old, taken from their parents since this April. 

I fundamentally don’t understand the argument that “this horrible thing that is totally preventable actually was also committed by someone else”. How about this: let’s agree that it’s a horrible thing and it needs to stop. If it appeases your racist nature to blame Obama, then fine. 

[Chuckie Finster 22,694]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Damn, the Trump trolls are out in force today. 

Days like today make it obvious that it is a few people controlling all of them.  They've each taken turns for an hour or so dominating this thread with very little overlap.

[David Dennison 18,854]

2 minutes ago, RandomIdoit said:

They are complicit in the immigration problem. They give them visas to allow them to travel through Mexico. Why is Mexico not granting them asylum? Are we going to play the "not our problem" game? If so, how are these immigrants the US's problem?

If they are within our borders, they have constitutional rights even if they aren't seeking political asylum. If they show up at our border seeking political asylum, they have legal rights granted to them by law. Our constitution and our laws make them our problem.

[Zepol87 9,185]

I don't care which president did it. Taking away toddlers from their parents and putting them in cages after saying you are taking them for a bath is incredibly fucked up, we are fucking these children up in the head. 

How the hell are some of you idiots defending this practice? 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,583]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Yes.  Let's ignore tens of thousands of separations by one administration and focus on separations of another and then get all fucking pissed off about it right before a critical election cycle!

So, we're back (through the magic of sarcasm) the repetitive ham-fisted conflation of apples and oranges and your refusal to own your bs claim, which honestly is pretty murky when you lash out at your own numbers. 

 

[Pig Bellmont 8,713]

2 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Days like today make it obvious that it is a few people controlling all of them.  They've each taken turns for an hour or so dominating this thread with very little overlap.

[Equinox logs into BabaYaga sock account]

[WhatTheBuck 28,776]

3 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

[Equinox logs into BabaYaga sock account]

BabaYaga should stay in her hut. 

[Js1 85,313]

8 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

I don't care which president did it. Taking away toddlers from their parents and putting them in cages after saying you are taking them for a bath is incredibly fucked up, we are fucking these children up in the head. 

How the hell are some of you idiots defending this practice? 

Politics is team sports for the GOP. See blindly apologizing for transgressions in Waco, College Station, State College and Norman.  It doesn't matter how bad, MY TEAM is doing it and I therefore will defend MY TEAM.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Js1

[ChickenSandwich 9,833]

no solutions, just personal attacks....What are the real options....

1. Detain the children with their families -  - - Dems sue saying unlawful to detain children more than 30 days, even with parent (resulting in an explosion of children illegally crossing the border)

Option 2 - release them to family members, often illegal themselves, and have 80% never show up for a court date.  This is unacceptable. (resulting in open borders and more illegal crossings with children)

Option 3 house them separately from family and actually know where they are.  Only option left unless we are sending them home with family immediately or let them claim asylum in Mexico or Canada. 

The Democrats have forced this situation and maybe simply enforcing the law and not championing catch and release open border policies is actually the most humane for the illegal immigrant the Americans citizens forced to lower their already low standard of living for elite liberal guilt.

If this forces them to make a change then so be it.  They have shown zero desire except to encourage and exacerbate the situation. 

If you care so much for these children you will sit down and vote for immigration reform, if not you will continue personal attacks until you get your open border way.

The media will stop at nothing to get their open borders, and they want nothing more than for this to continue.  It is win win for them, status quo for open borders or blow back from the child care

[David Dennison 18,854]

1 minute ago, ChickenSandwich said:

no solutions, just personal attacks....What are the real options....

1. Detain the children with their families -  - - Dems sue saying unlawful to detain children more than 30 days, even with parent (resulting in an explosion of children illegally crossing the border)

Option 2 - release them to family members, often illegal themselves, and have 80% never show up for a court date.  This is unacceptable. (resulting in open borders and more illegal crossings with children)

Option 3 house them separately from family and actually know where they are.  Only option left unless we are sending them home with family immediately or let them claim asylum in Mexico or Canada. 

The Democrats have forced this situation and maybe simply enforcing the law and not championing catch and release open border policies is actually the most humane for the illegal immigrant the Americans citizens forced to lower their already low standard of living for elite liberal guilt.

If this forces them to make a change then so be it.  They have shown zero desire except to encourage and exacerbate the situation. 

If you care so much for these children you will sit down and vote for immigration reform, if not you will continue personal attacks until you get your open border way.

The media will stop at nothing to get their open borders, and they want nothing more than for this to continue.  It is win win for them, status quo for open borders or blow back from the child care

The Democrats have all of the leverage. The Democrats are going to get everything they want on immigration if this goes on much longer.

[SmokeyTheBear 5,562]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

no solutions, just personal attacks....What are the real options....

1. Detain the children with their families -  - - Dems sue saying unlawful to detain children more than 30 days, even with parent (resulting in an explosion of children illegally crossing the border)

Option 2 - release them to family members, often illegal themselves, and have 80% never show up for a court date.  This is unacceptable. (resulting in open borders and more illegal crossings with children)

Option 3 house them separately from family and actually know where they are.  Only option left unless we are sending them home with family immediately or let them claim asylum in Mexico or Canada. 

The Democrats have forced this situation and maybe simply enforcing the law and not championing catch and release open border policies is actually the most humane for the illegal immigrant the Americans citizens forced to lower their already low standard of living for elite liberal guilt.

If this forces them to make a change then so be it.  They have shown zero desire except to encourage and exacerbate the situation. 

If you care so much for these children you will sit down and vote for immigration reform, if not you will continue personal attacks until you get your open border way.

The media will stop at nothing to get their open borders, and they want nothing more than for this to continue.  It is win win for them, status quo for open borders or blow back from the child care

And here I thought DACA was immigration reform. The title of this thread must have confused me.