DACA, immigration reform whatever

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

Business Insider picked up the story. They didn't add much in the way of new reporting. We're still largely going on the one nurse's whistleblower complaint. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/whistleblower-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center-2020-9

NBC News also picked up on it and spoke with several lawyers whose clients corroborated the story. It's an outrageous accusation so I'm going to want a whole lot more evidence. It wouldn't surprise me if true but I'm not rushing to judgment. I don't know if this qualifies as the story "gaining legs" or anything. It is what it is. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/nurse-questions-medical-care-operations-detainees-immigration-jail-georgia-n1240110

 

[Biff Tannen 46163]

This is wild shit. I really hope it’s not true. 
That said, can you imagine if Dotard were just the R nominee and this happened to a democratic president right before the first debate?  100% chance he would bring it up on the debate stage. 100%. 

[tx 3 putt 78675]

of course he was part of medicare scam, of course 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

19 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

This is wild shit. I really hope it’s not true. 
That said, can you imagine if Dotard were just the R nominee and this happened to a democratic president right before the first debate?  100% chance he would bring it up on the debate stage. 100%. 

No one wants it to be true. It’s overwhelmingly sad that it is even possibly true. That being said. If there was the slightest possibility that this was not a lone doctor doing this for money or whatever his reason, it is now because everyone else just took about eight steps back and left him alone. 

[lemonlime 5503]

1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

No one wants it to be true. It’s overwhelmingly sad that it is even possibly true. That being said. If there was the slightest possibility that this was not a lone doctor doing this for money or whatever his reason, it is now because everyone else just took about eight steps back and left him alone. 

Regardless, I guarantee you that there is lots of abuse of immigrants in these facilities.  This is, hopefully, and if true, the most egregious of the abuses.  But given the utter lack of oversight and the vulnerable population with little access to attorneys and with no family to intervene, the trump administration has set the stage for abuse after abuse.

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

14 hours ago, lemonlime said:

Regardless, I guarantee you that there is lots of abuse of immigrants in these facilities.  This is, hopefully, and if true, the most egregious of the abuses.  But given the utter lack of oversight and the vulnerable population with little access to attorneys and with no family to intervene, the trump administration has set the stage for abuse after abuse.

We've already heard allegations of systematic sexual abuse of detainees in ICE custody. 

https://www.propublica.org/article/ice-guards-systematically-sexually-assault-detainees-in-an-el-paso-detention-center-lawyers-say#988657

[tx 3 putt 78675]

if i was a daca, id be very worried about now 

[Brisketexan 106886]

1 minute ago, tx 3 putt said:

if i was a brown person whose parents or grandparents weren't natural born citizens, id be very worried about now 

FIF accuracy. If you think they aren't coming after US citizens whose parents were not citizens (legal residents or not, doesn't matter), you haven't been paying attention.  The "we only have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants" lie is one of the biggest lies of the past century.

[tx 3 putt 78675]

100% miller is going after 1st gen citizens in the 2nd term. The new Trump Supreme Court is ready to rubber stamp it. 

[Captainant 28529]

Color me shocked - OIG has actually announced that they'll look into the whistleblower complaint and not bury it

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/dhs-office-of-inspector-general-investigating-ice-detention-facility-confirms-there-will-be-interview-of-whistleblower/

Quote

A DHS OIG spokesperson confirmed to Law&Crime on Tuesday that the office will be interviewing Dawn Wooten and that it has initiated a review of the Irwin County Detention Center (ICDC) in Georgia. The facility is privately operated by LaSalle Corrections.

“DHS OIG takes these allegations very seriously. We will be interviewing Dawn Wooten, who initiated this complaint, to hear her allegations first-hand,” the statement said. “We have also initiated an evaluation of the Irwin County Detention Center, to include records reviews, interviews with detainees and staff, evaluation of medical care and services, and related matters.”

The DHS IG is Joseph V. Cuffari.

Law&Crime has learned that the interview is scheduled for Thursday afternoon.

Irvin McCullough, the Deputy Director of Legislation at the Government Accountability Project and a member of Wooten’s legal team, said in a statement that the group was pleased DHS OIG moved quickly to investigate Wooten’s whistleblower complaint.

“Whistleblowers spotlight misconduct to seek investigations and stop abuses,” McCullough said. “We’re glad the Inspector General is giving these disclosures the immediate investigation they deserve. The next step is ensuring that the investigation is a full one, where the watchdog interviews all the relevant witnesses, reviews all the relevant records, and gets to the very bottom of what’s happened at this facility.”

Members of Congress and groups representing Wooten have demanded an investigation of Wooten’s claims about a “high rate” of hysterectomies on ICDC detainees. Those allegations in the whistleblower complaint were first noticed and reported by Law&Crime. Wooten is a nurse who formerly worked full-time at ICDC. She was demoted in July, she believes, out of retaliation for raising concerns about the facility’s “unsafe work practices” and life-threatening neglect of detainees amid the COVID-19 pandemic.

According to Wooten, ICDC consistently used a particular gynecologist outside of the facility who almost always opted to remove all or part of the uterus of his female detainee patients.

“Everybody he sees has a hysterectomy—just about everybody,” Wooten said, adding that, “everybody’s uterus cannot be that bad.”

“We’ve questioned among ourselves like goodness he’s taking everybody’s stuff out…That’s his specialty, he’s the uterus collector. I know that’s ugly…is he collecting these things or something…Everybody he sees, he’s taking all their uteruses out or he’s taken their tubes out. What in the world,” she said, according to the complaint.

The Associated Press reported last Friday that more migrant women had come forward and alleged that they did not agree to or fully understand gynecological surgical procedures. But the AP also said that its review of the matter “did not find evidence of mass hysterectomies as alleged in a widely shared complaint filed” by Wooten.

Reading the tea leaves here... from Al Jazeera's coverage they included an additional detail that one of the complainants actually still doesn't know what was done to her. When she requested her medical docs ICDC provided more than 100 pages showing a diagnosis of cysts but nothing from the day of the surgery.

Nothing suspicious there... Glad it's not being swept under the rug

[Bama Chick 28596]

Leaving aside the absolute horror of performing unnecessary hysterectomies, these women will have not only lasting psychological damage but they now have to deal with the physical aftermath.

A hysterectomy isn’t like getting your appendix or tonsils removed in that once you recover from the surgery you can go back to normal.

It can permanently effect your bladder and bowels and urination and defecation. Their abdominal muscles will take a long time to heal - I don’t imagine prison surgeons are doing them vaginally or laparoscopically. If the ovaries were removed, they’ll experience severe menopausal symptoms - hot flushes, anxiety, weepiness, sweating, sleep disturbances, decreased vaginal lubrication which can make sex uncomfortable and painful. They’ll probably need to take hormone replacement therapy.

Add in the language barrier and most likely lack of access to basic follow up healthcare and these women are facing a lifetime of issues.

It’s incredibly sad and enraging.

[StassneyHorn 6767]

Thanks for the info, had no clue Bama

[Irwin F Fletcher 3555]

It may have been posted already but this is a great watch. Jordan Klepper is fantastic with these pieces.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

This may get swallowed up by the medical news, but it is important to pay attention to the sideshow as much as the main event:

Trump Administration Plan Would Cut Pay For Essential Farm Workers

The U.S. Agriculture Department’s decision to suspend a farm labor survey could lead to lower minimum wages in the fields.

Spoiler

The low-wage farm workers who’ve put food on America’s dinner tables throughout the coronavirus pandemic could soon see a pay cut courtesy of the Trump administration.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture is moving to phase out a quarterly survey that helps determine wage rates on farms that use the H-2A guestworker program.

The pay rate comes from a survey known as the adverse effect wage rate, or AEWR. It varies by region, and is meant to reflect the prevailing wage farms are offering. In most situations, H-2A employers have to pay workers according to the AEWR, the state minimum wage or the federal minimum wage ― whichever is highest. The idea is to keep farmers from paying guestworkers lower rates than they would pay Americans to do the same job. 

AEWRs range from $11 to $16 this year, whereas the federal minimum wage is still just $7.25 per hour. The AEWR is usually the highest of the possible rates, except in areas with robust local minimum wages, like California. That may help explain why growers aren’t huge fans of it. A recent analysis by the libertarian Cato Institute found that the difference between the AEWR rate and the minimum wage in each state averages 57%. 

If the administration suspends collecting data for the AEWR without another plan in place, many farms would be allowed to pay lower wages to field workers as early as next year. 

Labor groups are warning that such a move would depress income for foreign workers and U.S. citizens alike. Farms that use the H-2A program are required to pay at or above those wages not just to the visa holders, but to U.S. workers employed in similar roles.

Bruce Goldstein, president of the advocacy group Farmworker Justice, said poor guestworkers from Mexico and other countries are paid so little back home that they will accept any wage in the U.S. By pushing the legally required minimum wages lower, he said the Agriculture Department could end up displacing U.S. workers. 

“We’re talking about a couple hundred thousand farm workers potentially affected by this, both U.S.-born and guestworkers,” Goldstein said. “Wages are already low and this would allow them to be even lower. It undermines the whole point of the protections in the law.”

The Agriculture Department’s intention to suspend the survey was listed in the federal register this week and first reported by Business Insider.

The National Council of Agricultural Employers tried to sue to prevent wage hikes under the AEWR from happening in 2019. A lobbyist for the American Farm Bureau Federation penned an op-ed earlier this year arguing that the wage rates grow too fast and and the methodology behind them is faulty: “The real adverse effect to consider is the American farmers’ ability to stay open for business and compete against imports from countries with lower labor costs.”

Early in the pandemic, NPR reported that White House chief of staff Mark Meadows and Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue were exploring ways to help farmers by lowering the wages of H-2A workers.

Daniel Costa, an immigration law expert at the Economic Policy Institute, said that scrapping the survey would let the Agriculture Department use a different data source starting next year, and that it is almost certain to produce lower wage rates than the AEWR. Most workers would see their pay go down, particularly in the Southeastern states where the weak federal minimum wage prevails, he said.

Costa said the maneuvering by the Agriculture Department is consistent with Trump’s other policies on guestworker programs. The White House has said it wants to limit such programs to help U.S. workers, but in reality the number of visas for low-wage workers has grown under Trump’s watch, providing a pipeline of cheaper labor. Lowering pay could make the programs even more enticing.

“The wages should be fair,” Costa said. “If you set the wages so low that no [U.S. worker] will ever apply for these jobs, then yeah, you’re creating a labor shortage that leads to a justification for more guestworkers.” 

HuffPost asked the USDA if it has a plan to replace the AEWR with another wage metric but did not receive a response on Friday. The Labor Department announced in July 2019 that it planned to overhaul the H-2A program rules to use a different survey from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, but no such rule has been finalized.

According to the USDA, the average wage of a farmworker in the U.S. last year was $13.99, well below the $23.51 average outside of agriculture. Fifty-seven percent of farmworkers were of Mexican origin. Although they are less likely to be U.S.-born than workers in other fields, more than half were U.S. citizens. 

It’s possible that the Trump administration will let the 2020 wage rates produced by earlier surveys carry over into next year. In that case, many workers would not see a wage increase, but their earnings at least would not go down. 

But the United Farm Workers Foundation fears that if the survey disappears then the wage rates in most regions will default to the state or federal minimum. That could cost some workers a few dollars an hour, amounting to a huge drop in income over the course of a year.

Leydey Rangel, a spokesperson for the group, said cutting pay would be an awful way to reward field workers who’ve risked contracting coronavirus for months in order to maintain the food supply. 

“Really what the Trump administration here is doing is they are slashing farmworker wages in the middle of a global pandemic,” Rangel said. “This is the same federal government that declared them ‘essential.’”

 

 

[Captainant 28529]

Mexico says two women may have had non-consensual surgery in U.S. detention center

Quote

MONTERREY, Mexico (Reuters) - Mexico’s Foreign Ministry said it has identified two Mexican migrant women who may have had surgery performed on them without their consent while detained at a U.S. immigration center in the state of Georgia.

While being held at the Irwin center in Georgia, one Mexican woman was reportedly subject to gynecological surgery without her approval and without receiving post-operative care, the ministry said in a weekend statement.

The ministry said its findings were based on actions taken by consular staff and interviews Mexican officials conducted at the center.

Officials were also verifying the case of a second woman who may have been subject to surgical intervention “without her full consent,” without receiving an explanation in Spanish of the procedure, or her medical diagnosis, it added.

It did not name the women. The ministry last month said it had identified a woman possibly subjected to surgery in the center, but did not specify whether she had given her consent.

The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agency did not respond to a request for comment.

The ministry also said it is in touch with a lawyer about a possible class action lawsuit by Mexican women who have been detained at the facility.

In September, a complaint by a whistleblower nurse alleged medical abuse within the Georgia detention center, including unauthorized hysterectomies, a surgery to remove the uterus.

Reuters could not independently confirm those claims. In its statement, the Mexican foreign ministry said the first woman it referred to was not subject to a hysterectomy. It gave no further details on the second.

ICE Health Service Corps said in September that since 2018 only two people at the center were referred for hysterectomies, based on approved recommendations by specialists.

The contractor that runs the facility has said it strongly refutes the allegations and any implications of misconduct.

Sure seems like there's some "there" there

[Brisketexan 106886]

24 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Mexico says two women may have had non-consensual surgery in U.S. detention center

Sure seems like there's some "there" there

If there is, it is literally a crime against humanity.  I'm not stating that as hyperbole -- forced sterilization is specifically identified as a crime against humanity.

The US is a rogue state.  Chew on that.

[Pancho 46296]

These people deserve the worst punishment

 

[Captainant 28529]

Update to the forced sterilization story:

Link to the actual report sent to congress

Quote

At least 19 women have now come forward to allege they were pressured into unnecessary gynecological treatment and surgeries, including procedures that left them sterile, while they were imprisoned by Immigration and Customs Enforcement at the Irwin County Detention Center in Georgia. The women are mostly Black and Latina. They were all patients of Dr. Mahendra Amin, the primary gynecologist linked to the jail.

In a shocking new report submitted to Congress Thursday, an independent medical review team of nine board-certified OB-GYNs and two nursing experts examined more than 3,200 pages of the women’s medical records and said they found a lack of informed consent and a, quote, “disturbing pattern” of questionable gynecological surgical procedures. Today they’ll present their findings to the Senate Democratic Caucus.

This comes after whistleblowing nurse Dawn Wooten first spoke out in September about an alarmingly high rate of hysterectomies performed on women at the ICE jail, prompting congressional and federal investigations. An ICE spokesperson said the allegations in the new report raise, quote, “serious concerns that deserve to be investigated quickly and thoroughly.” Meanwhile, the private prison company that operates Irwin, LaSalle Corrections, said it could not comment during the impending investigation.

The report, authored by a panel of nine board-certified OBGYN's and two nursing experts, found a "disturbing pattern in which many women either underwent abdominal surgery or were pressured to have a surgery that was not medically indicated and to which they did not consent". The report also questions the possible complicity of ICDC in a pattern of abuse from a contracted OBGYN, including referring patients who had no GYN-related concerns and ordering psychiatric evaluations when women refused to undergo procedures recommended by the OBGYN.

None of the 19 women in this initial report received adequate informed consent. Dr. Amin's "findings" for surgery are not supported by any available source of information. Many of the patient records produced by ICDC and Dr. Amin are incomplete without imaging studies, operative notes, pathology reports, or hospital records.

 

....

 

I'm not feeling any better about this story.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

It's shameful and horrible is what it is.

[Bama Chick 28596]

And it gets even more shameful.

[HenryJames 67330]

Of course it’s 666.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Someone put THAT on Parler. Let those Q Tips puzzle over why the administration that they adore is the one orphaning children.

[Neonmoon 38130]

1 minute ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Someone put THAT on Parler. Let those Q Tips puzzle over why the administration that they adore is the one orphaning children.

Obviously because the “parents” were known pedophiles and this was stage 1 of Trumps plan to attack the sadistic cabal

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I really don't think two realities is a good idea for this country. It feels as if I've stepped through the looking glass or one of those novels I read as a child. I know this regime is doing this on purpose to instill feelings of despair and chaos, but the next two months are looking like a slog.

[Brisketexan 106886]

Just now, Mrs Whiggins said:

I really don't think two realities is a good idea for this country. It feels as if I've stepped through the looking glass or one of those novels I read as a child. I know this regime is doing this on purpose to instill feelings of despair and chaos, but the next two months are looking like a slog.

Most dangerous time in our history since the Civil War or Cuban Missile Crisis.  I'm 100% serious.  Shit is going to get more dangerous than even we can imagine.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Most dangerous time in our history since the Civil War or Cuban Missile Crisis.  I'm 100% serious.  Shit is going to get more dangerous than even we can imagine.

I've been reading Masha Gessen after I read her piece in The New Yorker and I'm actually glad I didn't read her earlier. It would've been too damn depressing.

[DigglerontheHoof 21550]

34 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I really don't think two realities is a good idea for this country. It feels as if I've stepped through the looking glass or one of those novels I read as a child. I know this regime is doing this on purpose to instill feelings of despair and chaos, but the next two months are looking like a slog.

I agree.  This is not a sustainable reality.   I, truly, don't know how it ends well.  The right is becoming our Taliban and I say that with no hyperbole. 

[Michael Knight 13217]

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

This is important not only for transparency, but today the infamous McCarthy (as in Kevin of the blatherskite branch of the McCarthys) was in El Paso talking about the BIDEN BORDER CRISIS. All caps intentional. He was accompanied by reps from Ohio, Florida, Louisiana, as well as Texas ...

[thrillhammer 686]

had to go almost to page three to find a thread about immigration.  i'm being told there is a border crisis.  is there a border crisis? 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

I think this needs to be front and center.  

The current immigration system is broken, and change needs to happen.  However, we are a nation of laws, and those laws, however flawed, should be followed until they can be changed.

This is getting more and more attention, especially as NY has allegedly come to a budget agreement.  

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-05/n-y-s-highest-earners-face-tax-hikes-under-proposed-budget-deal?srnd=premium&sref=knoriXqz

Most of this is going to hit corporations (which are already looking at leaving NYC and the state) and top earners (i.e. those making over 1M a year).  The key takeaway:

Lawmakers were nearing a budget agreement that would increase corporate and income taxes by $4.3 billion a year with additional revenue going to fund aid for schools, undocumented immigrants and small businesses, the Wall Street Journal reported Sunday, citing unnamed sources.

I cannot help but think that monies going to undocumented immigrants, when American citizens are struggling is going to be a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.  I guess my question is, how do we fix a completely broken system?  Obviously, disincentiving people from coming here should be a priority, and it seems like that should be done by requiring companies not to hire undocumented immigrants and punishing those that do.  But then we have to have a system in place to readily check someone's immigration status, and given the number of states and cities that have Sanctuary status, can that reasonably be done?

I know, this is an issue that has been outstanding for years, but the devestation due to the Pandemic puts this front and center as something that needs to be solved.

[tx 3 putt 78675]

On 4/2/2021 at 8:06 AM, thrillhammer said:

had to go almost to page three to find a thread about immigration.  i'm being told there is a border crisis.  is there a border crisis? 

 

the typical spring migration + they're not turning kids around. I thought I read that 78% (all) are turned away at the border. we need many more immigration judges, unbiased. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by tx 3 putt

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2651]

Starting to get a lot of migrants from central america trespassing on the family ranch, which is surprising since its about 40 miles from the border. Some even walk just walk up to the lodge asking for supplies, which makes it pretty nerves racking (especially since we normally have a bunch of little kids running around).   
 

Whats even more frustrating is that they cut open / destroy the high fence getting it.  Had to hire a neighbor to survey the fence daily to make sure none of the game escape. 
 

thinking about delaying the installation of a pool/lazy river, since we are worried about it getting fucked up when no one is there 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Xian

[Cement 314]

This is not a functional immigration policy.  

The Dems have incentivized border crossing and now we've got this mess.  Try watching this without getting ragey at this administration.

 

[Captainant 28529]

7 minutes ago, Cement said:

The Dems have incentivized border crossing and now we've got this mess.

Lolwut? How have they incentivized border crossings? What policy changes have they done to achieve that outcome?

[Cement 314]

11 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Lolwut? How have they incentivized border crossings? What policy changes have they done to achieve that outcome?

Perhaps incentivized is the wrong term - my apologies. 

But the migrants certainly feel that the borders are open or that they can use their own kids as anchor children for some reason that didn't exist a few months ago or last year.

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Cement

[Mole 4339]

And the year before?

[StassneyHorn 6767]

8 hours ago, Xian said:

Starting to get a lot of migrants from central america trespassing on the family ranch, which is surprising since its about 40 miles from the border. Some even walk just walk up to the lodge asking for supplies, which makes it pretty nerves racking (especially since we normally have a bunch of little kids running around).   
 

Whats even more frustrating is that they cut open / destroy the high fence getting it.  Had to hire a neighbor to survey the fence daily to make sure none of the game escape. 
 

thinking about delaying the installation of a pool/lazy river, since we are worried about it getting fucked up when no one is there 

Damn man, T&Ps

[F250 29199]

1 hour ago, Cement said:

This is not a functional immigration policy.  

The Dems have incentivized border crossing and now we've got this mess.  Try watching this without getting ragey at this administration.

 

Why are you ragey?

 

[F250 29199]

46 minutes ago, Cement said:

Perhaps incentivized is the wrong term - my apologies. 

But the migrants certainly feel that the borders are open or that they can use their own kids as anchor children for some reason that didn't exist a few months ago or last year.

 

We should have a global lockdown due to a pandemic every year!!! lulz

 

Fucking retard.

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by F250

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Biden should come out and say he has finished Trump’s border wall, except it’s invisible, and it will instantaneously disintegrate anyone attempting to illegally cross.  I swear to god this bullshit would work on a third of our voting population. 

[F250 29199]

On 4/5/2021 at 12:58 PM, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I think this needs to be front and center.  

The current immigration system is broken, and change needs to happen.  However, we are a nation of laws, and those laws, however flawed, should be followed until they can be changed.

This is getting more and more attention, especially as NY has allegedly come to a budget agreement.  

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-05/n-y-s-highest-earners-face-tax-hikes-under-proposed-budget-deal?srnd=premium&sref=knoriXqz

Most of this is going to hit corporations (which are already looking at leaving NYC and the state) and top earners (i.e. those making over 1M a year).  The key takeaway:

Lawmakers were nearing a budget agreement that would increase corporate and income taxes by $4.3 billion a year with additional revenue going to fund aid for schools, undocumented immigrants and small businesses, the Wall Street Journal reported Sunday, citing unnamed sources.

I cannot help but think that monies going to undocumented immigrants, when American citizens are struggling is going to be a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.  I guess my question is, how do we fix a completely broken system?  Obviously, disincentiving people from coming here should be a priority, and it seems like that should be done by requiring companies not to hire undocumented immigrants and punishing those that do.  But then we have to have a system in place to readily check someone's immigration status, and given the number of states and cities that have Sanctuary status, can that reasonably be done?

I know, this is an issue that has been outstanding for years, but the devestation due to the Pandemic puts this front and center as something that needs to be solved.

This only applies to New York and a migration of wealthy residents and businesses will benefit other states like Texas. Do Americans really care about the upper brackets in New York?

 

"The New York agreement would create two new tax brackets. Under the proposed plan, income between $5 million and $25 million would be taxed at 10.3% and income over $25 million would be taxed at 10.9%. The new rates would expire in 2027 under the proposed plan."

This is not going to put the immigration issue front and center unless maybe the people in these brackets attempt to scapegoat undocumented immigrants. Then some people like yourself might do the "undocumented immigrants are getting billions in funding who will think of the American workers who's multimillionaire bosses have to pay more taxes."

Ok, they won't say the last part they will say it's taking away from the working class and immigrants are a net negative but in reality they just don't want to pay more taxes and don't give a shit about the working class.

 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

Illegal border crossings were at a 50 year low under Obama/Biden. At some point there was a net negative influx of illegal immigrants as Obama deported more than were coming in, earning him the nickname “Deporter in Chief.” If you don’t like illegal immigration then surely you must have been an Obama supporter, right? And, being happy with historically low levels of illegal immigration, you probably voted for Hillary Clinton, right? If it ain’t broke, why fix it?

But along comes racist Don Trump making illegal immigration out to be a much worse problem than it was. He said he was going to build a wall from coast to coast. He threatened to halt even legal immigration (and in some cases did shut down legal points of entry and avenues to seek asylum). He cut off aid to Central American countries which only made the situation worse for asylum seekers. Trump incentivized a record spike in illegal immigration as those seeking asylum or work figured they’d better cross over while they still could.

Then Trump, Sessions, and Miller came up with the child separation policy. If you supported that then you are an immoral person. That was child abuse as policy in order to try to discourage migrants from coming. That was pure evil.

Of course Biden isn’t a monster like Trump and is going to enact humane immigration policy. It’s not his fault he followed a monster. So a bunch of migrants were encouraged to make the trip because we have a decent human being in the White House again. I vote for human decency. I’m not blaming Biden for a surge based on the fact that he’s not the sociopath that Donald Trump was. This too shall pass. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

4 hours ago, F250 said:

This only applies to New York and a migration of wealthy residents and businesses will benefit other states like Texas. Do Americans really care about the upper brackets in New York?

 

"The New York agreement would create two new tax brackets. Under the proposed plan, income between $5 million and $25 million would be taxed at 10.3% and income over $25 million would be taxed at 10.9%. The new rates would expire in 2027 under the proposed plan."

This is not going to put the immigration issue front and center unless maybe the people in these brackets attempt to scapegoat undocumented immigrants. Then some people like yourself might do the "undocumented immigrants are getting billions in funding who will think of the American workers who's multimillionaire bosses have to pay more taxes."

Ok, they won't say the last part they will say it's taking away from the working class and immigrants are a net negative but in reality they just don't want to pay more taxes and don't give a shit about the working class.

 

 

I think you misunderstand me.  I am actually one for open borders because I believe in the free movement of labor and and investment capital.  I understand that this just creates a safety net for the people that deliver food and work in restaurants.  What I am concerned about is increased taxes mean some of those wealthy will flee to Texas/Florida, and leave a smaller tax base.  Further, this will be compounded potentially by more undocumented immigrants coming to the northeast due to these programs.  So costs could increase, and the tax base decreases, and New York would be fucked.  It is also worrying to me because I could see backlash by people who these taxes don't impact.  

[F250 29199]

11 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I think you misunderstand me.  I am actually one for open borders because I believe in the free movement of labor and and investment capital.  I understand that this just creates a safety net for the people that deliver food and work in restaurants.  What I am concerned about is increased taxes mean some of those wealthy will flee to Texas/Florida, and leave a smaller tax base.  Further, this will be compounded potentially by more undocumented immigrants coming to the northeast due to these programs.  So costs could increase, and the tax base decreases, and New York would be fucked.  It is also worrying to me because I could see backlash by people who these taxes don't impact.  

There might be some wealth flight but I seriously doubt New York, particularly NYC would see a significant exodus of wealth. The other concern assumes undocumented immigrants are an economic burden which they are not. They pay local, state and federal taxes as well. They are primarily drawn to employment opportunities and serve a purpose in the economy despite what Lou Dobbs would have you think.

The last part has already been going on for years, the people least impacted by undocumented immigrants are the ones that bitch the most. "Dey took er jerbs!" But they love to watch Lou Dobbs and the like.

I do agree that the immigration system is broken but I don't see it getting fixed. The moment Joe, Nancy and Chuck propose a slight hint at reform Fox News will scream open borders and the Dems will immediately back down.

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

6 hours ago, F250 said:

There might be some wealth flight but I seriously doubt New York, particularly NYC would see a significant exodus of wealth. The other concern assumes undocumented immigrants are an economic burden which they are not. They pay local, state and federal taxes as well. They are primarily drawn to employment opportunities and serve a purpose in the economy despite what Lou Dobbs would have you think.

The last part has already been going on for years, the people least impacted by undocumented immigrants are the ones that bitch the most. "Dey took er jerbs!" But they love to watch Lou Dobbs and the like.

I do agree that the immigration system is broken but I don't see it getting fixed. The moment Joe, Nancy and Chuck propose a slight hint at reform Fox News will scream open borders and the Dems will immediately back down.

 

You haven't been paying attention over the last year.  We already have wealth flight, and it is going to get worse.  

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/07/15/new-york-city-expected-to-lose-more-than-300-million-from-tax-flight.html

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/449946-as-the-wealthy-flee-new-york-poorest-will-be-most-affected

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-06/goldman-plots-florida-base-for-asset-management-in-a-blow-to-nyc?sref=knoriXqz

[F250 29199]

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

You haven't been paying attention over the last year.  We already have wealth flight, and it is going to get worse.  

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/07/15/new-york-city-expected-to-lose-more-than-300-million-from-tax-flight.html

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/449946-as-the-wealthy-flee-new-york-poorest-will-be-most-affected

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-06/goldman-plots-florida-base-for-asset-management-in-a-blow-to-nyc?sref=knoriXqz

No, I don't really pay attention to New York city news very much. Sounds similar to San Francisco which I do follow for work reasons.

Still, undocumented immigrants are not the cause just like the homeless are not the reason people are leaving San Francisco. Those are just Fox News talking points.

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

18 minutes ago, F250 said:

No, I don't really pay attention to New York city news very much. Sounds similar to San Francisco which I do follow for work reasons.

Still, undocumented immigrants are not the cause just like the homeless are not the reason people are leaving San Francisco. Those are just Fox News talking points.

 

I did not say that undocumented immigrants are the reason that wealth is leaving NYC.  No, wealth is leaving NYC for places like Texas and Florida because it is a. cheaper to live there so their money goes further and b. significantly lower tax burden.  

You really are being obtuse aren't you?  Wealth flight is a real thing in NYC, and it is happening now.  It was starting in 2019, but the Pandemic accelerated it.  

NYC has a lot of wealth, but there are a lot of really poor people and a lot of undocumented immigrants.  If the wealthy leave, and your tax base goes with it, yeah, you are going to struggle to provide services.  Then tax creep happens.

[F250 29199]

12 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

You really are being obtuse aren't you?  Wealth flight is a real thing in NYC, and it is happening now.  It was starting in 2019, but the Pandemic accelerated it.  

NYC has a lot of wealth, but there are a lot of really poor people and a lot of undocumented immigrants.  If the wealthy leave, and your tax base goes with it, yeah, you are going to struggle to provide services.  Then tax creep happens.

I'm not being obtuse, I just don't understand why you keep trying to talk about wealth flight in the immigration thread. The only thing I have to go on is that you associated it with undocumented immigrants earlier in this thread while also echoing anti-immigration canards.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

44 minutes ago, F250 said:

I'm not being obtuse, I just don't understand why you keep trying to talk about wealth flight in the immigration thread. The only thing I have to go on is that you associated it with undocumented immigrants earlier in this thread while also echoing anti-immigration canards.

It's not that difficult to follow if you read the last few comments, IMO. Submitted for your edification and without comment:

Undocumented immigrants flooding in NY

Taxes raised, in part, to fund undocumented immigrant services in NY

Materially significant businesses and people who make up tax base in NY leave NY for FL/TX for tax reasons

Tax creep and unintentional negative consequences for the 80% of the tax base (middle and working class of NY) that can ill afford it