DACA, immigration reform whatever

[GW Hayduke 1953]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The problem is the manipulation and ignorance of facts surrounding immigration.

First, we actually need the labor.  There are currently more jobs available than workers to fill them.

Second, immigrants (legal and illegal) are a net positive on the economy.

Third, immigrants (legal or illegal) are less likely to be incarcerated for criminal behavior than a natural born citizen.

I’m all for border security but there needs to be a streamlined process to allow people to come into the country without fear of persecution and contribute to the country if that’s what they want to do.

 

 

These points are accurate.  These issues are complicated.  Combine that with a sizable amount of our population's inability to understand complicated issues, folks with varying degrees of nativism and xenophobia, and organized propaganda taking advantage of all this, we get the alt-right, fox news, trumpkins, and online right-wing trolls spouting what they spout and unable to converse in any meaningful way.

CATO: "The criminal conviction and arrest rates for immigrants were well below those of native-born Americans. Moreover, the conviction and arrest rates for illegal immigrants were lower than those for native-born Americans."

https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant#full 

CBO: "Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax
revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Edited June 16, 2018 by GW Hayduke

[JimmyJames 12271]

36 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

They might win some battles, but they are losing the war. It might get better as some of their old white voters die off, but the GOP's current messaging is atrocious. I am of the opinion that it's going to lose them a few generations of younger and newer Americans. I view Donald Trump's ascendancy and domination of the party as its death rattle.

That’s why trumps endgame is an authoritarian state. The rubes either don’t realize it, don’t care, or would actually prefer it so long as they get to rule too.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Seems like separating kids from their mothers for a misdemeanor would fall into the “cruel and unusual punishment” category.

[RandomIdoit 657]

Mexico welcomes only foreigners who will be useful to Mexican society:

• Foreigners are admitted into Mexico “according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress.” (Article 32)

• Immigration officials must “ensure” that “immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance” and for their dependents. (Article 34)

 

This sounds pretty reasonable to me. I agree thay we should be better than these other contries, but allowing everyone in who seeks asylum is not the way. Unfortunately a lot of people think the US should just let in anyone. I like the proposed point system. It ensures that the ones who are more likely to contribute are given priority.

Edited June 16, 2018 by RandomIdoit

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

13 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

That’s why trumps endgame is an authoritarian state. The rubes either don’t realize it, don’t care, or would actually prefer it so long as they get to rule too.

Thank goodness Trump has been a failure at anything more complicated than a reality TV star.

[GW Hayduke 1953]

Mexico has a large amount of unskilled labor so they don't need additional unskilled laborers.

The US has a need for unskilled workers. 

Lets look at our current legal immigration process.  See the below link and the left side of the chart. 

https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/a87d1550853898a9b306ef458f116079.pdf

If you are unskilled and have no family in the US, your only option is illegal immigration.

Since the US has a demand for unskilled workers and that demand should be met to support our industries and economy, we have an obligation to ensure we provide a humane pathway for unskilled workers to enter and contribute to our economy.  

[RandomIdoit 657]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

Mexico has a large amount of unskilled labor so they don't need additional unskilled laborers.

The US has a need for unskilled workers. 

Lets look at our current legal immigration process.  See the below link and the left side of the chart. 

https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/a87d1550853898a9b306ef458f116079.pdf

If you are unskilled and have no family in the US, your only option is illegal immigration.

Since the US has a demand for unskilled workers and that demand should be met to support our industries and economy, we have an obligation to ensure we provide a humane pathway for unskilled workers to enter and contribute to our economy.  

This is a good argument. However, what does the US do after they allow unskilled immigrants in and then they start having children? They will need medical care, food stamps, and housing. So now we have people to fill those jobs, but we have to support them if they have children because they are unskilled and they are paid accordingly.

[Brisketexan 105273]

This is a good argument. However, what does the US do after they allow unskilled immigrants in and then they start having children? They will need medical care, food stamps, and housing. So now we have people to fill those jobs, but we have to support them if they have children because they are unskilled and they are paid accordingly.

Guest worker program. Individual worker has a temporary permit to be here and work. Doesn’t bring spouse etc.

We used to have various versions of this, and they worked fine.

But they didn’t create a golden issue to demagogue over, so that will never happen again.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Just now, RandomIdoit said:

They will need medical care, food stamps, and housing. So now we have people to fill those jobs, but we have to support them if they have children because they are unskilled and they are paid accordingly.

What makes you conclude an unskilled worker can’t make enough to support a family?  

Should workers in the United States have a right to a living wage? 

The health and education of children is probably the single greatest economic investment our tax dollars could go to.

More so than feeding our military and defense contractors.

[RandomIdoit 657]

8 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

What makes you conclude an unskilled worker can’t make enough to support a family?  

Should workers in the United States have a right to a living wage? 

The health and education of children is probably the single greatest economic investment our tax dollars could go to.

More so than feeding our military and defense contractors.

Because they are unskilled? How much do you think they get paid to pick produce? Minimum wage. Who thinks they can support a family on that? No one. People think they SHOULD but that doesn't mean they can.

Health and education is important and it is wise to invest in our children. The health and educational programs in the US are lacking, so we should add even more people for them to support? 

[Chrispy 132]

1 hour ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

So in your scenario,  Texas would have never been settled, because Mexico would have built a wall, and kept all of the white people out?  Is that where we are going?  

Spain recruited Anglo-Americans to it’s territory, including Texas, prior to Mexican independence.

[GW Hayduke 1953]

21 minutes ago, RandomIdoit said:

This is a good argument. However, what does the US do after they allow unskilled immigrants in and then they start having children? They will need medical care, food stamps, and housing. So now we have people to fill those jobs, but we have to support them if they have children because they are unskilled and they are paid accordingly.

Unskilled laborers make an income and pay taxes. For a full understanding of the issue, see the CBO report I linked above.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

It seems like we've all forgotten that a big part of the Poor Man's Mexican Dream is to come up here, make what amounts to a fortune back home, and move back to where they came from and upgrade their shack into a nice solid house. They don't all want to come up here and milk the system.

Which is a separate issue from the asylum seekers, but it constitutes a sizable portion of the Mexicans who come here. 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11820]

6 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

Spain recruited Anglo-Americans to it’s territory, including Texas, prior to Mexican independence.

Exctly.  And we are doing the opposite?   

[RandomIdoit 657]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

Unskilled laborers make an income and pay taxes. For a full understanding of the issue, see the CBO report I linked above.

And how much do they get back on their tax return? If they have children, they get back more than they paid into SS, Medicare, and Federal withholding. I used TurboTax as an estimator and a single parent with 2 children received almost $9,000 back.

[Sbbruin 21866]

A good opinion piece in the WaPo about the GOP crumbling under trumps perverted version of conservatism.  As a lifelong republican,  but one who refused to check the box for either candidate, I fear the GOP will irreparably fracture under this lunatic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/this-is-the-way-of-the-cult/2018/06/15/9a9c9346-70ad-11e8-afd5-778aca903bbe_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.069971352dc3&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1

[David Dennison 18945]

12 minutes ago, RandomIdoit said:

And how much do they get back on their tax return? If they have children, they get back more than they paid into SS, Medicare, and Federal withholding. I used TurboTax as an estimator and a single parent with 2 children received almost $9,000 back.

That is an indicator that the market economy is failing and that the government has to step in to help working families support their children.

[TornACL 7722]

14 minutes ago, RandomIdoit said:

And how much do they get back on their tax return? If they have children, they get back more than they paid into SS, Medicare, and Federal withholding. I used TurboTax as an estimator and a single parent with 2 children received almost $9,000 back.

This doesn't mean anything unless you tell us what you entered for annual income and annual taxes withheld. 

[RandomIdoit 657]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

That is an indicator that the market economy is failing and that the government has to step in to help working families support their children.

Maybe they should do that for the existing citizens before adding more people to the system.

[RandomIdoit 657]

8 minutes ago, TornACL said:

This doesn't mean anything unless you tell us what you entered for annual income and annual taxes withheld. 

I entered $20000 salary, $1000 withheld, 2 children.

[JohnnyRage 1617]

A lot of those illegals be making a killing on their tax returns.

[RandomIdoit 657]

4 minutes ago, JohnnyRage said:

A lot of those illegals be making a killing on their tax returns.

Nope. But people complain about the how bad low income people live in the US, and people want to add more low income people? How is that logical? 

[Chrispy 132]

34 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Exctly.  And we are doing the opposite?   

I’m not sure if that’s a question or a statement, either way I don’t follow. 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11820]

Clearly you don’t.  Spaniards and early Mexicans welcomed white immigrants.  White immigrants now want to build a wall to keep Browns out.  

[Chrispy 132]

5 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Clearly you don’t.  Spaniards and early Mexicans welcomed white immigrants.  White immigrants now want to build a wall to keep Browns out.  

Spain could not convince it’s own citizens to move to sparsely populated areas, so it recruited foreigners. The idea was these Anglo Americans would increase economic development and deter aggressive Indian tribes. We don’t face these issues today, so your analogy is rather uselsss. 

[F250 28814]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Seems like separating kids from their mothers for a misdemeanor would fall into the “cruel and unusual punishment” category.

It's immoral, removing a baby or toddler from their parents and then locking the child up separated from any family member without a dedicated primary caregiver is a horrible thing to do. Any human with a shred of humanity ought to be morally outraged by whats happening with these children.

Trump has done a lot of bad shit but this here is a stain on the soul of the nation and we are all culpable for this sin.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

9 minutes ago, F250 said:

It's immoral, removing a baby or toddler from their parents and then locking the child up separated from any family member without a dedicated primary caregiver is a horrible thing to do. Any human with a shred of humanity ought to be morally outraged by whats happening with these children.

Trump has done a lot of bad shit but this here is a stain on the soul of the nation and we are all culpable for this sin.

 

I agree with all this.  My breaking point on moral outrage with Trump was Charlottesville.  I will never forgive him for that shit.  It was at that moment I knew things were going to get a lot worse and he could get away with almost anything. 

This Trump family separation policy qualifies as state sponsored child abuse if not state sponsored terrorism. 

The scary part is I know it’s going to get worse.

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[GW Hayduke 1953]

1 hour ago, RandomIdoit said:

And how much do they get back on their tax return? If they have children, they get back more than they paid into SS, Medicare, and Federal withholding. I used TurboTax as an estimator and a single parent with 2 children received almost $9,000 back.

I don't know what they would get back. I'm not sure how it is relevant though. There are federal income taxes; however, there are also state and local taxes. 

[GW Hayduke 1953]

12 minutes ago, F250 said:

It's immoral, removing a baby or toddler from their parents and then locking the child up separated from any family member without a dedicated primary caregiver is a horrible thing to do. Any human with a shred of humanity ought to be morally outraged by whats happening with these children.

Trump has done a lot of bad shit but this here is a stain on the soul of the nation and we are all culpable for this sin.

 

The outrage is justified. Just like the outrage over the realization we were torturing prisoners.  Torturing and separating families are counter to American values. This is basic stuff.

IMO it takes a degree of xenophobia or nativism driven by propaganda that allows people to view immigrants as less-than-human to get to the point where separating families is OK or justified.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

3 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

The outrage is justified. Just like the outrage over the realization we were torturing prisoners.  Torturing and separating families are counter to American values. This is basic stuff.

IMO it takes a degree of xenophobia or nativism driven by propaganda that allows people to view immigrants as less-than-human to get to the point where separating families is OK or justified.

The thing is, Trump campaigned on torture and dehumanizing immigrants.  We are running out of excuses.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11820]

21 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

Spain could not convince it’s own citizens to move to sparsely populated areas, so it recruited foreigners. The idea was these Anglo Americans would increase economic development and deter aggressive Indian tribes. We don’t face these issues today, so your analogy is rather uselsss. 

Yes your are historically right, but who is going to mow your lawns, do your drywall and other tasks beneath you?  Ralph the fat diabetic down the street?  You?  Fuck no.  I had my house painted this week and the three guys that did it were immigrants. Did a good job and oh by the way, because I’m Texan I hablo espanol so I could mostly communicate. Everyone was happy in the end.  Ask trumps illlegal workers the same.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

I’m so glad Pence is getting this thrown in his fucking face.

[Chrispy 132]

29 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Yes your are historically right, but who is going to mow your lawns, do your drywall and other tasks beneath you?  Ralph the fat diabetic down the street?  You?  Fuck no.  I had my house painted this week and the three guys that did it were immigrants. Did a good job and oh by the way, because I’m Texan I hablo espanol so I could mostly communicate. Everyone was happy in the end.  Ask trumps illlegal workers the same.  

We seem to be talking past one another, I have zero objection to legal immigrants. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Chrispy

[retread 2951]

 

[Message Board User 12396]

 

[F250 28814]

28 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

 

No deal and fuck this guy. Using the punishment of children as a deterrent should never be an option.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

Fuck Bannon and Fuck Miller for injecting this toxin into our body politic. 

[ChickenSandwich 9849]

24 minutes ago, F250 said:

No deal and fuck this guy. Using the punishment of children as a deterrent should never be an option.

1000% the problem. Open borders or nothing.  You absolve the parent completely for putting their child in that position in the first place. You absolve Mexico and the countries they passed through as well. 

Why are illegal immigrants >> than minority Americans?  Where is your hill top for all of the American children separated from their parents from the criminal justice system (Kaepernick)?  We already can’t or don’t help those in most need  in our country but you want to double the problem. 

As long as one side will only approach the issue with emotional antidotes we will never fix our broken system. Those in power to make the policy and those who champion the cause turn a blind eye and insult the Americans already suffering today. 

Why are you ok with separating American families but not illegal immigrants?  How much extra have you contributed in taxes to cover the cost?  How many people live in you 3000sq ft home?  It’s easy to play white knight when your standard of living is in zero jeopardy. Everyone seems to agree that low skilled and manual labor jobs are rapidly disappearing, but we want to flood the country with more of these workers??  It is pure fucking insanity. It seems you won’t be happy until it’s the .1% and the rest on welfare. 

 

[ChickenSandwich 9849]

2 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Fuck Bannon and Fuck Miller for injecting this toxin into our body politic. 

Fuck Congress for doing nothing when given the chance and fuck Obama for making up his own rules constitution be damned. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Fuck Congress for doing nothing when given the chance and fuck Obama for making up his own rules constitution be damned. 

You really think Bubba in the Oklahoma trailer is gonna work in our chicken rendering plants? Shit's gotten so bad up there judges are sentencing crackers to go work in those places for no money (they've couched it as a drug rehab program) because Skeeter ain't gonna do that work. 

[F250 28814]

4 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

1000% the problem. Open borders or nothing.  You absolve the parent completely for putting their child in that position in the first place. You absolve Mexico and the countries they passed through as well. 

Why are illegal immigrants >> than minority Americans?  Where is your hill top for all of the American children separated from their parents from the criminal justice system (Kaepernick)?  We already can’t or don’t help those in most need  in our country but you want to double the problem. 

As long as one side will only approach the issue with emotional antidotes we will never fix our broken system. Those in power to make the policy and those who champion the cause turn a blind eye and insult the Americans already suffering today. 

Why are you ok with separating American families but not illegal immigrants?  How much extra have you contributed in taxes to cover the cost?  How many people live in you 3000sq ft home?  It’s easy to play white knight when your standard of living is in zero jeopardy. Everyone seems to agree that low skilled and manual labor jobs are rapidly disappearing, but we want to flood the country with more of these workers??  It is pure fucking insanity. It seems you won’t be happy until it’s the .1% and the rest on welfare. 

 

No Fuck face. I am making a moral claim that should be obvious to even the most cold hearted simpletons.

 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 hour ago, Message Board User said:

 

So, fuck those kids if their parents enter twice!

How about this deal:  fix the immigration system by passing comprehensive reform.  We'll even give one party the presidency and both houses of Congress.  And if you can't get anything done, fuck you when you try to make innocent kids suffer the consequences of America's inability to handle its borders. 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11820]

2 hours ago, Chrispy said:

We seem to be talking past one another, I have zero objection to legal immigrants. 

I reckon so.   Why is this a conversational political topic then.?      Ive lived in south/central Texas my entire life. Always been migrants. The welfare people you need to rail against are the white trash meth head SS collective that elected trump. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Judge Roybeanbag

[Judge Roybeanbag 11820]

I will pick that bat up and pound you in your spongy head until you get it.  

[Judge Roybeanbag 11820]

Sorry, I don’t brook liars,  charletns  and retards.  You are one of three.   Take your goddamned pick.  

Edited June 16, 2018 by Judge Roybeanbag

[SDG 3319]

5 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Seems like separating kids from their mothers for a misdemeanor would fall into the “cruel and unusual punishment” category.

Not that it makes it better: but this happens in America with US Citizens everyday.  Where's the outrage for that?  

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, SDG said:

Not that it makes it better: but this happens in America with US Citizens everyday.  Where's the outrage for that?  

The outrage doesn't apply because of the substantial difference in the situations.   Families aren't usually separated in America when a parent is charged with a misdemeanor because the parent would be quickly released, if even arrested at all. Even for felonies, citizens can often get bail and stay with their kids.  Citizens often have easily findable extended families to watch the kids in the event that the only parent is arrested or both parents are arrested and in jail/prison long-term.   Family separation is literally the last option when there is no other solution.  And even then, it's very sad when American kids have to go into the system.  It's just not the government's fault. 

In contrast, this situation involves the government intentionally separating families as the very first option, with the express goal of deterring future illegal entry through harsh and cruel consequences. The only crime is usually the misdemeanor of illegal entry or no crime at all, in the case of asylum seekers.  The parents aren't released pending a judge determining their status, like would happen in the comparable situation with citizens —that's how it was, and what Trump /Sessions changed.  And extended family is much less likely to be around to watch the kids because they are foreign. 

So, the outrage exists here because the situation is outrageous, and the government is purposely causing it despite having other options. 

[Sbbruin 21866]

Nope. But people complain about the how bad low income people live in the US, and people want to add more low income people? How is that logical? 

The world needs ditch diggers too.

[Chrispy 132]

1 hour ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Sorry, I don’t brook liars,  charletns  and retards.  You are one of three.   Take your goddamned pick.  

You’re off the rails, you have my sympathy. 

[GW Hayduke 1953]

3 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

1000% the problem. Open borders or nothing.  You absolve the parent completely for putting their child in that position in the first place. You absolve Mexico and the countries they passed through as well. 

Why are illegal immigrants >> than minority Americans?  Where is your hill top for all of the American children separated from their parents from the criminal justice system (Kaepernick)?  We already can’t or don’t help those in most need  in our country but you want to double the problem. 

As long as one side will only approach the issue with emotional antidotes we will never fix our broken system. Those in power to make the policy and those who champion the cause turn a blind eye and insult the Americans already suffering today. 

Why are you ok with separating American families but not illegal immigrants?  How much extra have you contributed in taxes to cover the cost?  How many people live in you 3000sq ft home?  It’s easy to play white knight when your standard of living is in zero jeopardy. Everyone seems to agree that low skilled and manual labor jobs are rapidly disappearing, but we want to flood the country with more of these workers??  It is pure fucking insanity. It seems you won’t be happy until it’s the .1% and the rest on welfare. 

 

Your comments make no sense. Lets look at your first paragraph of this comment.

"1000% the problem."  What is the problem? Where is the verb? What are you saying? 

"Open borders or nothing." There is no verb here. What are you saying? 

"You absolve the parent completely for putting their child in that position in the first place." This is a strawman. No one is absolving the parent completely of anything. You are attempting to argue against a position that no one is taking. A strawman is a sign of weakness.

"You absolve Mexico and the countries they passed through as well." This is another strawman. 

Your entire first paragraph had absolutely no meaning and made no sense.

Edited June 16, 2018 by GW Hayduke