DACA, immigration reform whatever

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,289]

The problem is no one is brave enough to fight for anything close to open borders. 

Imagine if the United States went really imperialist a 100 years ago and we owned all of Latin and South America.   This cruelty at the border is absurd when you really think about it, especially when you do a cost/benefit analysis. 

 

[Smax 3,799]

This is why ICE needs to be abolished. The institution knowledge it posseses is bad.

Yes abolish the agency in charge of customs and immigration...

Good lord

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

4 minutes ago, Smax said:

Yes abolish the agency in charge of customs and immigration...

Good lord

Think of it in terms you understand.   Repeal and replace. 

[F250 28,577]

1 minute ago, Mojo Hand said:

That doesn't follow.  First, fixing the system requires electing people who will fix the system, and that cannot happen without electing someone other than Trump.   Second, electing someone other than Trump will at minimum roll back all of the extra shit he's added on to the previous problematic system.   Third, Obama was particularly bad on this issue and out of step with Dems like Warren, who were calling him out at the time. 

Yes, we should be clear that the problem is broader than Trump and that ousting him alone won't end the problems overnight.  But Trump is nonetheless a major part of the problem, and electing a good Dem candidate will go a long way towards taking us on the right path. 

I am saying, simply replacing Trump as POTUS will not resolve the problem. Sure a kinder POTUS will likely remove Trump's policies but if that is all that's done then the actual problem will not be resolved, it will only temporarily go away.

The only way to fix this is through legislation and a POTUS that is willing to expend their political capital on pushing massive immigration reform. On top of that the POTUS will need the will of the voters. People need to demand massive reform not just a return to normalcy. Right now, its largely been a call for a return to normalcy.

I personally don't like Castro but he was spot on with his criticism of Beto on the issue of removing border crossings as a crime. Beto who is being touted as a immigration reformist doesn't go far enough. We need a candidate that will push a policy that goes back past the Bush DHS monster and even the Clinton reform.

Stopping now because I can go off the rails on this topic.

 

 

[F250 28,577]

12 minutes ago, elfenix said:

 

 

This is why ICE needs to be abolished. The institution knowledge it posseses is bad.

 

It needs to be abolished and thrown into the fire of Mount Doom.

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

5 minutes ago, F250 said:

I am saying, simply replacing Trump as POTUS will not resolve the problem. Sure a kinder POTUS will likely remove Trump's policies but if that is all that's done then the actual problem will not be resolved, it will only temporarily go away.

The only way to fix this is through legislation and a POTUS that is willing to expend their political capital on pushing massive immigration reform. On top of that the POTUS will need the will of the voters. People need to demand massive reform not just a return to normalcy. Right now, its largely been a call for a return to normalcy.

I personally don't like Castro but he was spot on with his criticism of Beto on the issue of removing border crossings as a crime. Beto who is being touted as a immigration reformist doesn't go far enough. We need a candidate that will push a policy that goes back past the Bush DHS monster and even the Clinton reform.

Stopping now because I can go off the rails on this topic.

 

 

Actually, this is exactly the thread to talk about that stuff on.  And I'm with you.   But I see the current uprising against Trump's concentration camps as actually moving that towards becoming a reality.   Dems are putting their cards on the table more than ever before on this issue.   The next Dem who is elected will have to back it up by overhauling the system.   Or, at least, that is my hope. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Mojo Hand

[DDD Dad 14,092]

Weren't we headed for wholesale immigration reform under W?  Whatever happened with that?

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

And I readily admit, with embarrassment, that this was not an issue I paid enough attention to before now.   My mindset was, reform efforts will always be a clusterfuck, immigration activists are suing Obama, and congressional Dems are pushing back on this issue, so it's being dealt with as well as it can be.  That is, just another Washington issue I can put on the backburner.   The child separation policy really drove this issue home and made me face what we are doing to human beings.  And I don't think that genie goes back in the bottle now, for me or millions of other Americans. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Mojo Hand

[hayden_horn 11,311]

9 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Weren't we headed for wholesale immigration reform under W?  Whatever happened with that?

republicans in congress.

it was seriously one policy that i felt bush was right on. but he got nowhere with his reasonable ideas.

edit: democrats couldn't get their shit together either, for the record.

Quote

The bill's sole sponsor in the Senate was Majority Leader Harry Reid, though it was crafted in large part as a result of efforts by Senators Kennedy, McCain and Kyl, along with Senator Lindsey Graham, and input from President George W. Bush, who strongly supported the bill. For that reason it was referred to in the press by various combinations of these five men's names, most commonly "Kennedy–Kyl". A larger group of senators was involved in creating the bill, sometimes referred to as the 'Gang of 12'.[1] Senator David Vitter of Louisiana led the opposition to the bill, clashing with McCain and Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska.[2]

At the same time, the Security Through Regularized Immigration and a Vibrant Economy Act of 2007 was being considered in the United States House of Representatives, although to considerably less public attention.

On June 7, three Senate votes on cloture (a move to end discussion) for the bill failed with the first losing 33–63, the second losing 34–61 and the third losing 45–50.[3] This had been thought by some observers to signal the end of the bill's chances, since on that day, after the first failing vote, Harry Reid had told reporters that, if another vote on cloture failed, "the bill's over with. The bill's gone."[4]

However, at the urging of President Bush, the bill was brought back for discussion in the Senate as bill S. 1639 on June 25.[5] On June 26, a motion to proceed passed the Senate, by a margin of 64–35 (under Senate rules it needed 60 votes).[6] A number of amendments to the bill were considered and rejected. On June 28, the bill failed to get the 60 votes necessary to end debate. The final cloture vote lost, 46–53.[7] This effectively ended its chances, and President Bush said he was disappointed at Congress's failure to act on the issue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by hayden_horn

[wildcat09 28,729]

33 minutes ago, elfenix said:

 

 

This is why ICE needs to be abolished. The institution knowledge it posseses is bad.

 

Both ICE and CBP.  They're full of evil fucks who joined up for the opportunity to be cruel to immigrants.

10 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Weren't we headed for wholesale immigration reform under W?  Whatever happened with that?

The most racist wing of the GOP killed it because it wasn't cruel enough to immigrants. Same thing happened under Obama.

[Pig Bellmont 8,637]

To be clear Obama didn’t arrest asylum seekers who presented themselves after illegally crossing and then falsely hold their children *indefinitely* as “unaccompanied minors”. Trump has paid private prisons to build these concentration camps to handle the sheer numbers of children and those facilities are overflowing. All this BUT OBAMA bullshit is disingenuous trolling and everyone giving it credence is missing the forest for the trees. 

And fuck ICE - I don’t see any reason CBP can’t handle those responsibilities 

[4th&Five 41,322]

People act like ICE has been around forever and can’t imagine what we would do without them. 

ICE was started in 2003. 

[F250 28,577]

17 minutes ago, elfenix said:

 

 

This is why ICE needs to be abolished. The institution knowledge it posseses is bad.

The institutional knowledge comment is an excellent point. If you look at the abuses from the Bush and Obama administration's, they are not all that different than the one's happening now under Trump.

It's not like Stephen Miller whispers in the agent's ear. These bastards have been doing this for a long time. Trump just removed the restraints from these dogs.

This reminds me of the time I was visiting a friend in Del Rio who was a BP agent at the time. We were having drinks with his BP friends and one them mentioned getting 60 "thonks" earlier in the day. Not getting the reference I asked for an explanation. The explanation was simple, a "thonk" is a headcount of captured illegals because that's the sound a Maglite makes when it hits someone's head. Shit got uncomfortable after they opened up about other practices.

 

 

[GSU&UT 1,798]

1 hour ago, Mojo Hand said:

And I readily admit, with embarrassment, that this was not an issue I paid enough attention to before now.   My mindset was, reform efforts will always be a clusterfuck, immigration activists are suing Obama, and congressional Dems are pushing back on this issue, so it's being dealt with as well as it can be.  That is, just another Washington issue I can put on the backburner.   The child separation policy really drove this issue home and made me face what we are doing to human beings.  And I don't think that genie goes back in the bottle now, for me or millions of other Americans. 

I'm with you. Fozz does have a point in that everyone's disgust of Trump is bringing light to issues that did exist before him, but I'm having a hard time believing that Obama acted with any sort of pleasuring in bringing about pain to a vulnerable population like this unlike Trump behind Stephen Miller's doing. They are trying to bring the legal crossings down to a trickle so that people are forced to cross illegally and in ever increasingly dangerous conditions only to have medical treatment intentionally withheld.

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

19 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

I'm with you. Fozz does have a point in that everyone's disgust of Trump is bringing light to issues that did exist before him

Even that argument, while having a grain of truth, is made disingenuously by Fozzz/DSA and other Trump apologists ike the "both sides" folks.  Their implication is that people only care now because of partisan, anti-Trump motivations, thus delegitimizing the opposition as hypocritical.   The reality is that Trump has galvanized opponents on this issue not simply because he's Trump, but because of his actions in taking previous policies to horrible extremes.   People can rationalize or ignore things to a point, but when that bubble is burst, everything else takes on a new light.   Most people weren't all that aware of or invested in these issues even for a year under Trump, until he took it too far by intentionally taking kids away from their families.   At that point, only the deplorables could still rationalize or ignore what our country was doing.   And the newly galvanized opposition is sincere, even if some of their criticisms go to issues that began before Trump. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Mojo Hand

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,289]

 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4,962]

It is still an important point to make so that everyone but the Tump Fellaters can agree that we need actual legislation to fix this instead of just relying on getting Trump out office.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,289]

Just now, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

It is still an important point to make so that everyone but the Tump Fellaters can agree that we need actual legislation to fix this instead of just relying on getting Trump out office.

Oh hey, this motherfucker needs to go too...

[Pig Bellmont 8,637]

this was caused by executive action alone, not new legislation. The administration doesn’t have to do this, and it can stop without an act of Congress 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4,962]

Yes, but getting rid of this administration does not rid future administrations of the ability to do so. Both need to happen, and one of those relies on legislation.

[atomheartbevo 89,157]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Imagine if the United States went really imperialist a 100 years ago and we owned all of Latin and South America.

We would all be married to women from the great state of Brazil?

[F250 28,577]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Imagine if the United States went really imperialist a 100 years ago and we owned all of Latin and South America.   This cruelty at the border is absurd when you really think about it, especially when you do a cost/benefit analysis.  

It never happened due to the same reason we are having a humanitarian crisis at the border now.

 

John C. Calhoun on why the U.S. shouldn't annex Mexico. Cliff notes version, it had nothing to do with respecting Mexican sovereignty but a simple desire to keep out brown skin people.

The next reason which my resolutions assign, is, that it is without example or precedent, wither to hold Mexico as a province, or to incorporate her into our Union. No example of such a line of policy can be found. We have conquered many of the neighboring tribes of Indians, but we have never thought of holding them in subjection—never of incorporating them into our Union. They have either been left as an independent people amongst us, or been driven into the forests.

I know further, sir, that we have never dreamt of incorporating into our Union any but the Caucasian race—the free white race. To incorporate Mexico, would be the very first instance of the kind of incorporating an Indian race; for more than half of the Mexicans are Indians, and the other is composed chiefly of mixed tribes. I protest against such a union as that! Ours, sir, is the Government of a white race. The greatest misfortunes of Spanish America are to be traced to the fatal error of placing these colored races on an equality with the white race. That error destroyed the social arrangement which formed the basis of society. The Portuguese and ourselves have escaped—the Portuguese at least to some extent—and we are the only people on this continent which have made revolutions without being followed by anarchy. And yet it is professed and talked about to erect these Mexicans into a Territorial Government, and place them on an equality with the people of the United States. I protest utterly against such a project.

Sir, it is a remarkable fact, that in the whole history of man, as far as my knowledge extends, there is no instance whatever of any civilized colored races being found equal to the establishment of free popular government, although by far the largest portion of the human family is composed of these races. And even in the savage state we scarcely find them anywhere with such government, except it be our noble savages—for noble I will call them. They, for the most part, had free institutions, but they are easily sustained among a savage people. Are we to overlook this fact? Are we to associate with ourselves as equals, companions, and fellow-citizens, the Indians and mixed race of Mexico? Sir, I should consider such a thing as fatal to our institutions.

The next two reasons which I assigned, were, that it would be in conflict with the genius and character of our institutions, and subversive of our free government. I take these two together, as intimately connected; and now of the first—to hold Mexico in subjection.

[Hank Scorpio 17,691]

21 hours ago, Js1 said:

Meghan McCain is a noun, a verb and “John McCain, MY FATHER”

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,289]

27 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

We would all be married to women from the great state of Brazil?

I need to work on colonizing Brazil.  

[Brisketexan 103,860]

Astounding. I'm watching Hitler's Circle of Evil on Netflix right now.  It's about the rise of his internal henchmen.  The parallels are uncanny.

Keep watching. Keep reading. The parallels between the gang of fourth-rate jackholes doing evil because that’s all they’re competent at doing are dead-one

Weren't we headed for wholesale immigration reform under W?  Whatever happened with that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007
 

Yeah...sadly, answered. W was on target, but his proposal wasn’t mean and racist enough for the GOP.

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

Holy shit.  Am I reading this right?  Federal asylum officials are asking the court to stop the Trump administration's policy that they are being forced to execute?

 

[Patrick Bateman 3,868]

 

[victory88 5,641]

Some of the people here defending trump and/or making excuses on the previous pages for purposely separating children and punishing them in these concentration camps should completely be ashamed of themselves. It's quite obvious you guys lack common decency?  These are human beings and kids.  We all have different views but this is unacceptable and ban worthy in my opinion.  Seriously... fuck you guys.

[Hate 20,065]

 

Yeah...sadly, answered. W was on target, but his proposal wasn’t mean and racist enough for the GOP.

 

Didn’t the Democrats control both the house and the senate in 2007? Just asking because I may be misrembering.

[Hate 20,065]

 

Yeah...sadly, answered. W was on target, but his proposal wasn’t mean and racist enough for the GOP.

 

Dp

[Chrispy 131]

7 hours ago, Hate said:

 

Didn’t the Democrats control both the house and the senate in 2007? Just asking because I may be misrembering.

Only white Republicans are racist, everyone else’s intentions are pure as the driven snow. At least that’s what the lobotomized sycophants on Surly tell me. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,489]

15 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

Only white Republicans are racist, everyone else’s intentions are pure as the driven snow. At least that’s what the lobotomized sycophants on Surly tell me. 

It's been pointed out numerous times by numerous posters both parties have failed to reform our immigration system. True to form, you can only interpret this through a lens that produces the monotonous narrative of good/bad, either/or, black/white and false equivalencies.

[retread 2,951]

 

[MidTexHorn 822]

My very evangelical mother just posted this little essay on Facebook from that paragon of Christian decency James Dobson: https://drjamesdobson.org/about/july-newsletter-2019?sc=hpslider1

So much bullshit, I don't even know where to start. He acknowledges the fucking humanitarian nightmare of it all and then proceeds to blame the liberals and say that prayer for Trump and his Wall are the only fix (I'm paraphrasing). Unreal what so called Christians in this country have become. My mom was a fucking missionary in Central America for crying out loud, and this is what she has been reduced to.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,289]

 

[F250 28,577]

20 minutes ago, MidTexHorn said:

My very evangelical mother just posted this little essay on Facebook from that paragon of Christian decency James Dobson: https://drjamesdobson.org/about/july-newsletter-2019?sc=hpslider1

So much bullshit, I don't even know where to start. He acknowledges the fucking humanitarian nightmare of it all and then proceeds to blame the liberals and say that prayer for Trump and his Wall are the only fix (I'm paraphrasing). Unreal what so called Christians in this country have become. My mom was a fucking missionary in Central America for crying out loud, and this is what she has been reduced to.

And there it is...

"Their numbers will soon overwhelm the culture as we have known it"

[hayden_horn 11,311]

8 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

man, at least have someone proofread your document.

but it sounds horrific. well done, republicans!

[Bama Chick 28,596]

And there it is...
"Their numbers will soon overwhelm the culture as we have known it"

That little bit of foulness just screams for a “Heil Trump!” as a closer.

[Brisketexan 103,860]

That little bit of foulness just screams for a “Heil Trump!” as a closer.

It’s never been about anything more than that. Everything else they say is completely disingenuous bullshit.

And they WILL say a lot. Because they know that their real reasons are loathsome and evil. But know that what they say - all of it - is bullshit.

Preserving our “cultural purity” is the driver. Always has been. Always will be.

21sr century nationalist nazi dreams.

[Foosters 17,673]

2 hours ago, MidTexHorn said:

My very evangelical mother just posted this little essay on Facebook from that paragon of Christian decency James Dobson: https://drjamesdobson.org/about/july-newsletter-2019?sc=hpslider1

So much bullshit, I don't even know where to start. He acknowledges the fucking humanitarian nightmare of it all and then proceeds to blame the liberals and say that prayer for Trump and his Wall are the only fix (I'm paraphrasing). Unreal what so called Christians in this country have become. My mom was a fucking missionary in Central America for crying out loud, and this is what she has been reduced to.

Fuck your mom.

[MidTexHorn 822]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

It’s never been about anything more than that. Everything else they say is completely disingenuous bullshit.

And they WILL say a lot. Because they know that their real reasons are loathsome and evil. But know that what they say - all of it - is bullshit.

Preserving our “cultural purity” is the driver. Always has been. Always will be.

21sr century nationalist nazi dreams.

Yup, and I'm seeing it first hand. My mom is not a nazi. She loves brown people. She has several in her family. She is not in any way racist that I've ever seen.

Yet here we are. I suspect there were many like her in Germany in the 1930s who didn't hate the Jews but were easily led down that path out of fear, manipulation, propaganda, economic worries, etc. Really sad to see it happening here, in my family, in 2019.

[MidTexHorn 822]

1 hour ago, Foosters said:

Fuck your mom.

Fuck you back, but I understand the sentiment

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

35 minutes ago, MidTexHorn said:

Yup, and I'm seeing it first hand. My mom is not a nazi. She loves brown people. She has several in her family. She is not in any way racist that I've ever seen.

Yet here we are. I suspect there were many like her in Germany in the 1930s who didn't hate the Jews but were easily led down that path out of fear, manipulation, propaganda, economic worries, etc. Really sad to see it happening here, in my family, in 2019.

What would she say if you asked her if she agreed with the thing about "Their  numbers will soon overwhelm the culture as we have known it"?   Does she "love brown people" but not their cultures? 

[DDD Dad 14,092]

1 hour ago, Foosters said:

Fuck your mom.

Pics?

[hayden_horn 11,311]

18 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

What would she say if you asked her if she agreed with the thing about "Their  numbers will soon overwhelm the culture as we have known it"?   Does she "love brown people" but not their cultures? 

a taco truck on every corner

[ChickenSandwich 9,771]

On 6/26/2019 at 2:27 PM, Pig Bellmont said:

To be clear Obama didn’t arrest asylum seekers who presented themselves after illegally crossing and then falsely hold their children *indefinitely* as “unaccompanied minors”. Trump has paid private prisons to build these concentration camps to handle the sheer numbers of children and those facilities are overflowing. All this BUT OBAMA bullshit is disingenuous trolling and everyone giving it credence is missing the forest for the trees. 

And fuck ICE - I don’t see any reason CBP can’t handle those responsibilities 

To be clear, they were not handling anywhere near the amount of claims being made now. It’s a clear abuse of they system that robs money from schools, hospitals and veterans.

 

 

The number of illegal aliens who were apprehended who, then, claimed credible fear, jumped 43%, from 38,300 in FY17 to 54,690 in FY18. The number of aliens who were deemed inadmissible at a U.S. port of entry, but who then claimed credible fear, more than doubled (up 121%), from 17,248 to 38,269.

In all, total claims of credible fear rose 67%, from 55,584 to 92,959. Accordingly, credible fear claims as a percentage of all illegal alien apprehensions and inadmissibles increased from 13% to 18%.

From 2000-2013, “fewer than 1 percent of those encountered by CBP initiated asylum claims,” CBP reports.

CBP Commissioner Kevin K. McAleenan is calling on Congress to address the abuse of America’s willingness to protect immigrants who are in actual danger:

“These numbers reflect a dramatic increase in initial fear claims by those encountered on the border, which is straining border security, immigration enforcement and courts, and other federal resources.”

“As the majority of these claims will not be successful when they are adjudicated by an immigration court, we need Congress to act to address these vulnerabilities in our immigration system which continue to negatively impact border security efforts.”

 

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/illegal-alien-asylum-claims-surge-67-fy18-skyrocket-121-ports-entry

Edited June 27, 2019 by ChickenSandwich

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

2 hours ago, Foosters said:

Fuck your mom.

His dad already did at least once. 

[Captainant 26,933]

23 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

To be clear, they were not handling anywhere near the amount of claims being made now. It’s a clear abuse of they system that robs money from schools, hospitals and veterans.

 

 

The number of illegal aliens who were apprehended who, then, claimed credible fear, jumped 43%, from 38,300 in FY17 to 54,690 in FY18. The number of aliens who were deemed inadmissible at a U.S. port of entry, but who then claimed credible fear, more than doubled (up 121%), from 17,248 to 38,269.

In all, total claims of credible fear rose 67%, from 55,584 to 92,959. Accordingly, credible fear claims as a percentage of all illegal alien apprehensions and inadmissibles increased from 13% to 18%.

From 2000-2013, “fewer than 1 percent of those encountered by CBP initiated asylum claims,” CBP reports.

CBP Commissioner Kevin K. McAleenan is calling on Congress to address the abuse of America’s willingness to protect immigrants who are in actual danger:

“These numbers reflect a dramatic increase in initial fear claims by those encountered on the border, which is straining border security, immigration enforcement and courts, and other federal resources.”

“As the majority of these claims will not be successful when they are adjudicated by an immigration court, we need Congress to act to address these vulnerabilities in our immigration system which continue to negatively impact border security efforts.”

 

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/illegal-alien-asylum-claims-surge-67-fy18-skyrocket-121-ports-entry

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/cns-news/

• Overall, we rate CNS News Questionable based on extreme right wing bias, promotion of propaganda and numerous failed fact checks.

[MidTexHorn 822]

46 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

What would she say if you asked her if she agreed with the thing about "Their  numbers will soon overwhelm the culture as we have known it"?   Does she "love brown people" but not their cultures? 

I suspect she didn't pay too much attention to that or what it means or the race baiting double meaning. If I did ask her that question, I think she'd say we don't want their culture of corruption and violence (MS-13 holla!).

[ChickenSandwich 9,771]

 total asylum applications through the end of 2017 are known, and have been surging. There were about 40,000 or 50,000 applications per year during the 2000s, but in 2017 asylum applications reached about 260,000.

 

https://thefederalist.com/2018/12/11/real-border-crisis-foreigners-gaming-americas-asylum-laws/