DACA, immigration reform whatever

[David Dennison 19543]

12 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

As the media moves on, for profit concentration camps are still a problem in the United States today.

So are for profit jails, for profit prisons, for profit emergency services, for profit soldiers, for profit education, for profit medicine.

Capitalism presents a variety of problems when it comes to incentives.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Mayhaps now isn’t the time to minimize the crimes against humanity in the concentration camps with semantic one upping. 

[Revolution512 1518]

On 7/3/2019 at 3:24 PM, David Dennison said:

Because this administration's policies are a complete failure. Donald Trump's rhetoric and his refusal to address the political upheaval in central America has only encouraged more people to come and seek asylum. 

He created this problem and his incompetence is exacerbating it.

People like you encourage it.

It's disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself.

You’re so full of shit. Do you pay attention to anything? The left is trying to capitalize on this crisis politically while offering what solution? Don’t talk about disgusting to anyone. The whole situation is fucked up and suddenly you care? While not understanding one goddamn thing about what’s really going on. I know, concentration camps. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/brandondarby/status/1146045973535309825

[David Dennison 19543]

9 minutes ago, Revolution512 said:

You’re so full of shit. Do you pay attention to anything? The left is trying to capitalize on this crisis politically while offering what solution? Don’t talk about disgusting to anyone. The whole situation is fucked up and suddenly you care? While not understanding one goddamn thing about what’s really going on. I know, concentration camps. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/brandondarby/status/1146045973535309825

Yeah. It's the left trying to capitalize on this crisis.

Tell us about the immigration bill with $25 billion in wall funding that Donald Trump torpedoed in 2018.

Now tell us again who's playing politics.

Oh, and just so you know, Barack Obama was excoriated on the left for his immigration policies.

Edited July 6, 2019 by David Dennison

[Mojo Hand 4580]

I guess it really has to be restated over and over again.

1) Obama's immigration policies were bad.  Trump's are significantly worse.  Just one basic summary:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/bad-sheer-inhumanity-detention-conditions-migrants-worse-under-trump-advocates-n1025961

2) Obama's policy ended in 2015 precisely because the left fought it politically and in the courts.  Including the vast majority of Dems in the House and Senate, who publicly called on the Obama administration to halt the policy:  https://m-huffpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7495282/amp

[Revolution512 1518]

2-3 months ago this was a “manufactured crisis”......both parties are failing miserably at this. 

[David Dennison 19543]

Just now, Revolution512 said:

2-3 months ago this was a “manufactured crisis”......both parties are failing miserably at this. 

It is a manufactured crisis. The administration's policies are creating it. It's a complete failure.

Donald Trump flat out rejected a bill that would have funded everything he claims to want. 

He'd rather have the issue to rile up his racist base of voters.

[WhatTheBuck 28931]

21 hours ago, David Dennison said:

So are for profit jails, for profit prisons, for profit emergency services, for profit soldiers, for profit education, for profit medicine.

Capitalism presents a variety of problems when it comes to incentives.

 

Don't forget for-profit TV news. 

[David Dennison 19543]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Don't forget for-profit TV news. 

Absolutely. 

[Revolution512 1518]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

It is a manufactured crisis. The administration's policies are creating it. It's a complete failure.

Donald Trump flat out rejected a bill that would have funded everything he claims to want. 

He'd rather have the issue to rile up his racist base of voters.

You’re hopeless. 

[David Dennison 19543]

Just now, Revolution512 said:

You’re hopeless. 

Why did Donald Trump kill the bipartisan immigration bill that included $25 billion for border security?

[WhatTheBuck 28931]

6 minutes ago, Revolution512 said:

You’re hopeless. 

Probably. But he's not wrong here. Trump declined $25 Billion for his wall in order to deny a path to citizenship for 2-year-olds brought here 20 years ago. They're educated, they work, pay taxes, aren't criminals, and by every objective measure are productive members of society. But they're brown. We can't have that. 

Trump has increased the flow of migrants by threatening to close the border and to restrict the criteria for amnesty. (Sorry, the possibility that you might get killed if you don't flee your country just might not cut it anymore.) And by cutting off aid to the home countries of the migrants. He's encouraged illegal border crossings by restricting access to legal points of entry to asylum seekers. Trump has unquestionably made the problem worse.

A reasonable person might conclude that he did so intentionally for purely political purposes, so that he can make the crisis seem more severe. I mean, if he solved the problem, what would he campaign on in 2020? The only other possibility is that he's a rank incompetent who hasn't a fucking clue what he's doing. And if that's your take then you might be right. It's hard to say. Because he is without question a complete fucking moron. 

[EuroHorn 3295]

On 7/3/2019 at 11:07 PM, David Dennison said:

It's one of the main causes in Europe. Get used to it.

 

[Revolution512 1518]

24 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Why did Donald Trump kill the bipartisan immigration bill that included $25 billion for border security?

That information is pretty easy to obtain. I don’t answer for this administration. But to act like it’s all the fault of one moron is a joke. 

[Brisketexan 106907]

 

Of course...the point is...climate change is causing INCREASED desertification. Places that used to sustain agriculture...now don’t. So people have to leave them.

God you people are so fucking stupid that it hurts.

[retread 2951]

Meanwhile 80 immigrants are still standing in a room rated for 40 ppl, and older women are being told to drink out of the toilet. MAGA.

[hpslugga 4097]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Of course...the point is...climate change is causing INCREASED desertification. Places that used to sustain agriculture...now don’t. So people have to leave them.

God you people are so fucking stupid that it hurts.

Dude, you’re addressing someone whose schtick is using a half sentence to reply to someone else and following it with an ellipsis to make it seem intelligent.

Edited July 6, 2019 by hpslugga

[David Dennison 19543]

8 minutes ago, Revolution512 said:

That information is pretty easy to obtain. I don’t answer for this administration. But to act like it’s all the fault of one moron is a joke. 

It is the fault of one moron. He said he would veto the bill. It would have passed the Senate otherwise.

[cactusflinthead 27627]

8 minutes ago, Revolution512 said:

That information is pretty easy to obtain. I don’t answer for this administration. But to act like it’s all the fault of one moron is a joke. 

That would be Stephen Miller. Trump was ready to sign. Remember that meeting with Schumer and Pelosi and how it got deep sixed after Miller had a fit. Now,  it's all on the Dotard. He's dug in and can't figure out how to turn an embarrassment into a win. Needs more aggy on the team, they're experts at it.

[retread 2951]

Wasn't John Kelly involved as well?

[cactusflinthead 27627]

Just now, retread said:

Wasn't John Kelly involved as well?

Considering the coin he's making now, I'd say that is correct. 

[retread 2951]

What a country.

[David Dennison 19543]

4 minutes ago, retread said:

What a country.

[retread 2951]

I mean, we send all of these immigrants to these private prisons, and the prisons tell us that they're going to take great care of them. What else are we supposed to do?

[Mojo Hand 4580]

It's the central truth of the Reagan Revolution.   For Republicans, "small government" means the government borrowing money, to cut checks to minimally regulated private companies who take over government responsibilities, so that other Republicans running those companies make enormous profits that largely go untaxed. 

[David Dennison 19543]

2 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

It's the central truth of the Reagan Revolution.   For Republicans, "small government" means the government borrowing money, to cut checks to minimally regulated private companies who take over government responsibilities, so that other Republicans running those companies make enormous profits that largely go untaxed. 

It's why Ronald Reagan was one of the worst presidents we've ever had.

[achooloco 1086]

1 hour ago, Revolution512 said:

You’re so full of shit. Do you pay attention to anything? The left is trying to capitalize on this crisis politically while offering what solution? Don’t talk about disgusting to anyone. The whole situation is fucked up and suddenly you care? While not understanding one goddamn thing about what’s really going on. I know, concentration camps. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/brandondarby/status/1146045973535309825

We were mad then dipshit. 

[Brisketexan 106907]

We were mad then dipshit. 

And...we had an admin that actually could be shamed into doing the right thing. Slowly, but it was possible.

 

I wasn’t an Obama fan (and, despite the current admin making his admin look like the golden age by comparison, still ain’t a huge fan), and the fact that he 1) took a shorty approach to immigration and 2) chose to spend all of his political capital on healthcare, leaving none for immigration, pissed me off. But the admin didn’t choose cruelty for the sake of cruelty - they had no Stephen Miller, masturbating gleefully to the thought of brown people suffering.

 

The purposeful cruelty of this admin is 1) the entire fucking point, and 2) has destroyed all standing and credibility we have ever had as champions of human rights. We now get to lecture absolutely NOBODY on how shitty they are. Which is just fine with Trump...he’s fucking “in love” with leaders who execute thousands of their own own people for political thought crimes.

 

Fuck trump and fuck Revolution for supporting him and his evil minions.

[hpslugga 4097]

32 minutes ago, achooloco said:

We were mad then dipshit. 

When Obama was doing it, the uproar was coming from the same base of people that it’s coming from now. The difference? Well there really isn’t one except for the mental block right wingers have when it comes to 1) maintaining the delusion that “the left” and “The Democratic Party” are in any way near the same entity 2) their infantile obsession with whataboutism 3) the fact that even in the context of #1, Obama’s opposition party raised precisely zero protest over this. Seriously, what Republican demonstrations were there in opposition to these facilities in 2014? 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

For some additional perspective, the Obama family detention initiative —which, note, did not include systematic family separations — was launched on June 20, 2014.   Over the ensuing months, the left rose up against it and lawsuits were filed.   By May 2015, most Dems in Congress, plus candidate Hillary Clinton, were publicly calling on Obama to halt the program.   A federal judge ordered it to be halted on July 24, 2015, which was the beginning of the end.   So, 13 months for opponents of the policy to achieve success. 

In comparison, Jeff Sessions announced the administration's "zero tolerance" policy on April 6, 2018, although the family separation policy actually started on a smaller scale in July 2017.  Even using April 2018 as the start, we are 15 months in and it is getting worse and worse.   15 months until they started getting called concentration camps.    With no members of the president's party calling for the end. 

So, even aside from the fact that Trump's policies are significantly worse than Obama's, and even aside from the fact that the left did vocally oppose Obama on the issue at the time, the timeline is an additional reason why the rhetoric is getting more heated right now.  And rightfully so.

[HenryJames 67380]

 

[Message Board User 12406]

Open borders yall.

 

[Pancho 46325]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Edited July 8, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Js1 87187]

Old stupid white evangelicals are the fucking worst. 

[hpslugga 4097]

On 7/3/2019 at 1:33 AM, slorch said:

IDGAF, nor do we owe them anything.  The notion that we do because they made the trek is bullshit.

Aside from everything that's already been said to you regarding this repugnant pair of sentences, it's not even about "owing them because they made the trek." In fact I've yet to read anything serious that in any way implies that.

But since you mentioned it, if we owe them anything, it's for creating the catastrophic conditions in which they lived that served as the catalyst for making ANY trek. I cannot for the life of me understand why people like you, Chrispy, ChickenSandwhich, et al are trying so hard to pretend that history and that reality aren't there. I cannot understand for the life of me understand why you'd rather feverishly concoct a fraudulent picture of the world that can only be derived from make believe and pretend. You guys seriously think in your own minds that you're "telling it like it is," and you're not. You're climbing up a tree to tell a lie in lieu of standing on the ground to tell the truth. What's worse is that the tortured logic and rhetoric that you guys are using has precisely zero power of persuasion. When responsible people browse the internet (or whatever database they fancy) and they see things like:

"Operation PBSUCCESS,"
"Francisco Ventura and José Humberto Mejía,"
"Oscar Romero,"
"Roberto D'Aubuisson,"
"Maura Clarke, Ita Ford, Dorothy Kazel, and Jean Donovan,"
"Lt. Col. Sigifredo Ochoa,"
"El Mozote Massacre,"
"US rejections of El Salvadoran peace talks,"
"Ignacio Ellacuría, Segundo Montes, Ignacio Martín-Baró, Joaquín López y López, Juan Ramón Moreno, and Amando López," 
"Roberto Suazo Córdova"
"Manuel Zelaya 2009 coup d'etat"
"Juan Orlando Hernandez"
"Nicaraguan Contras"
"Nicaragua v. United States ICJ"
"Effects of the Drug War on Latin America"

...they're not going to like what they read about them, especially when they learn those are tips of a few icebergs, and they won't be moved in the slightest by the typical political theatrics that you guys are employing. It's no different than John Silber's Make-Shit-Up-24-Hours-A-Day-And-Call-It-Straight-Shooting schtick. 

You guys go back and forth between just flat out denying that these histories exist, mitigating their impact, or the even more grotesque route of offering apologetics in defense of them in the disgraceful manner that Chrispy did with his garbled I'm-a-partisan-non-partisan horseshit. I'm not interested in having a conversation about an issue like immigration with someone whose value of history is such that it cannot accept basic historic realities, and good luck finding anyone worth a shit who is interested. That refusal alone proves beyond any reasonable doubt that you and those others don't really care about illegal immigration.

If you did care, you'd be howling at the US government to terminate any and all practices that facilitate and/or encourage it. The foreign military policy is but one component (it's the biggest, but it's just one). Don't forget the fact that employers (especially the largest ones) who employ illegals (mostly for jobs none of us citizens would even consider) do so free of any real fear of prosecution, the ill effects of the Drug War on those countries, NAFTA, etc. You guys don't talk about any of that, though.

Foreign policy? Gotta kill all the commies! We cannot allow other countries dictate the course of their own affairs! They have to do what we want them to do!
Drug war? Gotta burn all that weed and cocaine and kill all those damn dealers!
Looking the other way when businesses are hiring illegals? STERNLY WORDED LETTERS!!!

That's y'alls M.O. You guys just make excuses, blame everyone and everything else except your own government for what it's actually done, and believe in bullshit that's on the level of "Christopher Columbus discovered Ohio in 1942." At this point, I cannot tell you anything other than you have the obligation to concede the various points that have been raised against you and that you need to, at the very least, rehabilitate your argument. What you guys have presented so far is fractal wrongness, and simply restating it isn't going to cut it.

Edited July 8, 2019 by hpslugga

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

Aside from everything that's already been said to you regarding this repugnant pair of sentences, it's not even about "owing them because they made the trek." In fact I've yet to read anything serious that in any way implies that.
But since you mentioned it, if we owe them anything, it's for creating the catastrophic conditions in which they lived that served as the catalyst for making ANY trek. I cannot for the life of me understand why people like you, Chrispy, ChickenSandwhich, et al are trying so hard to pretend that history and that reality aren't there. I cannot understand for the life of me understand why you'd rather feverishly concoct a fraudulent picture of the world that can only be derived from make believe and pretend. You guys seriously think in your own minds that you're "telling it like it is," and you're not. You're climbing up a tree to tell a lie in lieu of standing on the ground to tell the truth. What's worse is that the tortured logic and rhetoric that you guys are using has precisely zero power of persuasion. When responsible people browse the internet (or whatever database they fancy) and they see things like:
"Operation PBSUCCESS,"
"Francisco Ventura and José Humberto Mejía,"
"Oscar Romero,"
"Roberto D'Aubuisson,"
"Maura Clarke, Ita Ford, Dorothy Kazel, and Jean Donovan,"
"Lt. Col. Sigifredo Ochoa,"
"El Mozote Massacre,"
"US rejections of El Salvadoran peace talks,"
"Ignacio Ellacuría, Segundo Montes, Ignacio Martín-Baró, Joaquín López y López, Juan Ramón Moreno, and Amando López," 
"Roberto Suazo Córdova"
"Manuel Zelaya 2009 coup d'etat"
"Juan Orlando Hernandez"
"Nicaraguan Contras"
"Nicaragua v. United States ICJ"
"Effects of the Drug War on Latin America"
...they're not going to like what they read about them, especially when they learn those are tips of a few icebergs, and they won't be moved in the slightest by the typical political theatrics that you guys are employing. It's no different than John Silber's Make-Shit-Up-24-Hours-A-Day-And-Call-It-Straight-Shooting schtick. 
You guys go back and forth between just flat out denying that these histories exist, mitigating their impact, or the even more grotesque route of offering apologetics in defense of them in the disgraceful manner that Chrispy did with his garbled I'm-a-partisan-non-partisan horseshit. I'm not interested in having a conversation about an issue like immigration with someone whose value of history is such that it cannot accept basic historic realities, and good luck finding anyone worth a shit who is interested. That refusal alone proves beyond any reasonable doubt that you and those others don't really care about illegal immigration.
If you did care, you'd be howling at the US government to terminate any and all practices that facilitate and/or encourage it. The foreign military policy is but one component (it's the biggest, but it's just one). Don't forget the fact that employers (especially the largest ones) who employ illegals (mostly for jobs none of us citizens would even consider) do so free of any real fear of prosecution, the ill effects of the Drug War on those countries, NAFTA, etc. You guys don't talk about any of that, though.
Foreign policy? Gotta kill all the commies! We cannot allow other countries dictate the course of their own affairs! They have to do what we want them to do!
Drug war? Gotta burn all that weed and cocaine and kill all those damn dealers!
Looking the other way when businesses are hiring illegals? STERNLY WORDED LETTERS!!!
That's y'alls M.O. You guys just make excuses, blame everyone and everything else except your own government for what it's actually done, and believe in bullshit that's on the level of "Christopher Columbus discovered Ohio in 1942." At this point, I cannot tell you anything other than you have the obligation to concede the various points that have been raised against you and that you need to, at the very least, rehabilitate your argument. What you guys have presented so far is fractal wrongness, and simply restating it isn't going to cut it.

The immigration system, as it stands, is shitty. And I am not addressing refugees. If you actually meet the definition of a refugee (and a lot of these people do not), then we absolutely should streamline the process and let them in.

However, I have a serious question. A lot of these people have no education and no skills. How will they support themselves and their families? Those who bring children will enroll them in an already overcrowded public education system, generally needing ESL services. When they are sick, they will tax a system already burdened with too many who cannot pay.

That IMO is the crux of the issue. If they want to come here, and work their ass off, great. Come on in. However, we need to work out what services they are eligible for and which they are not. We also need to figure out how to pay for it.

Hell, we need to do that with our own poor and uneducated.

[Captainant 28547]

9 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

However, I have a serious question. A lot of these people have no education and no skills. How will they support themselves and their families? Those who bring children will enroll them in an already overcrowded public education system, generally needing ESL services. When they are sick, they will tax a system already burdened with too many who cannot pay

What, and West Virginia, Kentucky, and every other dueling banjo state just get a pass? Those fuckers suck hundreds of billions of dollars from the federal teat and give us such great returns like Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham 

[Js1 87187]

LOL as if they aren't already working in restaurant kitchens, landscaping, homebuilding, cleaning houses and hotels, etc. "HoW wILl tHeY sUpPoRt ThEmSeLvEs?!?!?!"

[Mojo Hand 4580]

12 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

The immigration system, as it stands, is shitty. And I am not addressing refugees. If you actually meet the definition of a refugee (and a lot of these people do not), then we absolutely should streamline the process and let them in.

However, I have a serious question. A lot of these people have no education and no skills. How will they support themselves and their families? Those who bring children will enroll them in an already overcrowded public education system, generally needing ESL services. When they are sick, they will tax a system already burdened with too many who cannot pay.

That IMO is the crux of the issue. If they want to come here, and work their ass off, great. Come on in. However, we need to work out what services they are eligible for and which they are not. We also need to figure out how to pay for it.

Hell, we need to do that with our own poor and uneducated.

We should do an experiment where, for a couple hundred years, we take the world's tired, poor and huddled masses who are yearning to breath free.  We can call it America, and see if it becomes the greatest country in the world. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

16 minutes ago, Js1 said:

LOL as if they aren't already working in restaurant kitchens, landscaping, homebuilding, cleaning houses and hotels, etc. "HoW wILl tHeY sUpPoRt ThEmSeLvEs?!?!?!"

Yep. They have no expectation of receiving support from the "system" and most even try to avoid anything that requires making themselves known to a bureaucracy.  This, sadly, includes single mothers working multiple jobs whose only use of the "system" is enrolling their kids in the local public school.  Under Obama, strides had been made in bringing people who are present here out into the open.  That was all quickly undone.  Deportations of parents make national news now.  People are going back into the shadows.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

What, and West Virginia, Kentucky, and every other dueling banjo state just get a pass? Those fuckers suck hundreds of billions of dollars from the federal teat and give us such great returns like Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham 

That's my point. We need to take care of our own poor masses before we take care of the rest of the world's uneducated poor.

[elfenix 34752]

So, deport Mitch?

[Js1 87187]

9 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

That's my point. We need to take care of our own poor masses before we take care of the rest of the world's uneducated poor. 

Our poor masses want their public assistance while they bitch about the black and brown people using it or stealing their jobs. 

The rest of the world's poor masses seem to come in and do the work the American poors won't do (cook, clean, pick fruit, build houses, mow the lawn, take care of some rich white family's children). 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

What, and West Virginia, Kentucky, and every other dueling banjo state just get a pass? Those fuckers suck hundreds of billions of dollars from the federal teat and give us such great returns like Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham 

That's my point. We need to take care of our own poor masses before we take care of the rest of the world's uneducated poor.

It doesn't work like that, and it never has in America.   Most immigrants come, work hard, raise good families, and become productive members of our society.   That process is what has made our country what it is.   There will always be a portion of society who struggles, and we need to help them, but that is independent of immigration issues. 

Our country is based on the notion that most people will take advantage of our freedoms and opportunities to make something of their lives.   If that isn't true, what have we been trying to do here?  And how has it worked for so long, with literally every group of people that has immigrated? 

[hpslugga 4097]

28 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

The immigration system, as it stands, is shitty. And I am not addressing refugees. If you actually meet the definition of a refugee (and a lot of these people do not), then we absolutely should streamline the process and let them in.

However, I have a serious question. A lot of these people have no education and no skills. How will they support themselves and their families? Those who bring children will enroll them in an already overcrowded public education system, generally needing ESL services. When they are sick, they will tax a system already burdened with too many who cannot pay.

That IMO is the crux of the issue. If they want to come here, and work their ass off, great. Come on in. However, we need to work out what services they are eligible for and which they are not. We also need to figure out how to pay for it.

Hell, we need to do that with our own poor and uneducated.

First, that's an issue that's independent of what I was addressing. Slorch, Chrispy et al weren't anywhere near bringing up those topics. They're just right wing lunatics who believe that the way to deal with this issue, which I repeat they do not take nearly as seriously as their rhetoric indicates, is to shame immigrants/refugees to fucking death and to treat them like absolute shit when they do come here. I'm not sure why you chose to quote me to air out that grievance.

So just to start, define "a lot of these people," and how do you know they don't fit the definition of a refugee? A refugee is, per the UN, "someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group. Most likely, they cannot return home or are afraid to do so."

I cannot find a single possible way that any of these Hondurans that are caravanning up here do NOT meet that definition. That's really the brilliance (as well as the idiocy) of US propaganda. A bunch of people are coming up here as refugees, so what do we do? Challenge the assertion that they're refugees. How do we do that? Again, obscure the political situation. My experience has been that most of the people who take the position that you take aren't even aware that these are Central Americans (in this particular case, Hondurans) who are coming up here. They're under the misunderstanding that it's all Mexicans. That's a remarkable feat of obscuring the situation.

The Zelaya coup was a textbook example of this type of obscuring as well. Zelaya introduced a handful of positive, popular social programs that were meant to improve the standard of living of the average Honduran. He then proposed a non-binding referendum that was to ask the population "would you support a re-writing of the constitution?" Immediately, the right-wingers throw their hands up and start running around like chickens with severed heads accusing Zelaya of trying to rid the constitution of the amendment that says no Honduran can serve as president for more than 1 term. A "power grab," they called it.

So they kidnap him, escort him to another country, and someone else takes over. They also removed 4 Supreme Court justices based entirely on the grounds that they'd voiced opposition to the coup, a move that the ICHR condemned rather strongly. 

Then enter Hernandez who "wins" the 2013 election, and just boldly inserts himself in the 2017 election, bearing in mind that aforementioned provision in the constitution that says no Honduran can serve as president for more than 1 term is still in effect. They never rewrote the constitution and they never amended that provision. He just put himself in the election and "won" again, so what those effeminate right-wingers "feared" about Zelaya actually did happen with Hernandez, and those pussies couldn't be bothered to protest it in the slightest. Why? Well clearly it's only ok when they actually do it, but not when some slightly left-of-center president even vaguely proposes it. I distinctly remember arguing that exact event with several shaggy posters and not one of them has said "you know, I was wrong about that. That was just a power play by the right wingers." They've been unusually silent about it, even though they have an obligation to correct a hideous and glaring error.

What's happened since Hernandez was "reelected?" Well two thirds of the country now lives in poverty political freedoms are profoundly insecure, there is definitely violence being perpetrated https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/12/honduras-government-deploys-dangerous-and-illegal-tactics-to-silence-population/, social services are basically nonexistent because the government is so obviously corrupt, etc. This is about as close to Guatemala and El Salvador of the 1980's that we've seen. So what does our political leadership and, to no small extent, the elite media do? Downplay the situation. Shame the people who leave. It's an abject disgrace. Don't believe the hype.

Second, your remark about the "overcrowded public education system" has a very simple fix: tell your government to stop fucking teachers and administrators at every given turn. Stop fucking them on pay, which de-incentivizes people to go into that line of work to begin with, and that has the odd consequence of having large average class sizes. You won't get that result with Trump/DeVos. With them, you get the exact opposite because they don't know about education, they don't care about education, and they only see profits to be made from education.

Third, the idea about them not being educated/skilled and/or part of the workforce and abusing the health system is just a joke. Aside from what everyone else has already explained to you, for every one of these people you could find doing that, I can find literally hundreds of citizens who commit these abuses. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

Then change the fucking rules.  We are a country of laws.  You want to come here and work hard for a better life for your family?  Fantastic.  But you need to get in fucking line behind all those people trying to do it the right way.  Also, refine the refugee definition.  It is too broad and subjective as it stands.  There needs to be more guidelines.   

In 2007, for the first time, there was a stab at meaningful immigration reform.  It was torpedoed by the extreme left and the extreme right.  

And FYI, I know that the argument our own poor about the immigrants taking their job is horseshit. That is why I think public assistance should only go to those who cannot work, which includes the elderly, the disabled, and children.  Everyone else, tough shit.  I have very little sympathy for those who do not help them selves. 

Since you address the public education issue, I argue that no matter what you pay teachers, education starts in the home.  If the environment a child is raised in disregards education, then no matter how good the teacher or the school is, you are going to be hard pressed to get that child to succeed unless you can really get to them.  That is why I think programs like Junior Achievement and Big Brothers and Big Sisters are KEY to success, not just throwing money at teachers (though I do think they need to be paid more).  Also, with increased teacher pay, I also think there should be increased scrutiny.  Bad teachers should be shown the door.  Good teachers should be handsomely rewarded.  Unlike most, I know that standardized testing scores are NOT the way to measure that.   Rather, it would be a myriad of different metrics that should be looked at, some of which will not be apparent until later down the road.  

You talk to me as if I am a Trump supporter.  I have made it abundantly clear that I am not.  However, there are real issues facing this country, and sticking our fingers in our ears or our heads in the sand is not going to make it go away.  There are going to have to be choices that are made.  And some will mean that politicians will lose their jobs.  They are the cowards in that they are not willing to even have those conversations.  We need adults at the table, not our current elected officials.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

No one would give a shit if a million Canadians flooded across the border of North Dakota.

This is about maintaining white power.

It’s painfully obvious. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

9 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Then change the fucking rules.  We are a country of laws.  You want to come here and work hard for a better life for your family?  Fantastic.  But you need to get in fucking line behind all those people trying to do it the right way.  

The people coming to the ports of entry right now are following the rules.   And "they should come legally" is an entirely different argument than "we should not allow poor, uneducated immigrants at all," which us the argument you were making. 

Beyond that, the notion that it's the "illegals" flouting the rules is disingenuous bullshit.   Our system is built on encouraging them to come and then using the "rules" to exploit them as an illegal underclass.   And yes, that system should be fixed, but not based on the false notion that they are undesirable people.

[Js1 87187]

Even the ones who come here legally (via employment or family) have to wait sometimes DECADES to become permanent residents and then citizens.  While paying taxes for services they will never get to utilize.  And if they do - BAM, Trump made that a precursor to being denied permanent residency.

Having a near permanent underclass of noncitizens (undocumented or otherwise) propping up our social services and economy, paying taxes while receiving no public assistance or benefits?

Edited July 8, 2019 by Js1