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hayden_horn

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mchookem
mchookem

bitching about immigrants not paying income tax while simultaneously bragging about paying immigrants with cash so they can avoid paying income tax. i did not have that on my bingo card.  

TSipper
TSipper

We owe this girl and her family nothing. I do not care if they are fleeing violence, that is not the responsibility of this country. 7 billion people on this planet, is it our job to take all of them

Chrispy
Chrispy

Spin it however you wish, this man forced his daughter into the river, not our policies. 

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JustBecause

JustBecause 112

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

An opinion piece from the Washington Examiner?  Really?  That's your source?

But, yes, there are people for open borders...they are called Libertarians.

So the information that is cited is incorrect?

 

Really?

 

From the Libertarians:

  • Libertarianism is a moral and political philosophy that argues in favor of a strong presumption of letting people engage freely in mutually consensual activity and on minimizing coercion in society. In the modern political context, libertarians generally focus on government-enforced and government-facilitated coercion.
  • The right to migrate can be considered a corollary of the libertarian view that people should be free to do what they please (individually or collectively) unless it violates the rights of others.
  • Libertarians’ view of obligations to strangers has two core premises. First, no obligations to strangers beyond respecting their rights. Second, a very strong obligation to respect their rights. Together, these premises argue in favor of not letting concerns about harms to fellow nationals be a justification for opposing free migration.
  • Although libertarian theory does not really offer a case against free migration, libertarians have argued against free migration on consequentialist grounds (in terms of the detrimental effects that an open borders policy would have on moving towards or maintaining a libertarian society) as well as via the anarcho-capitalist counterfactual.
  • Even many libertarians who do support freer migration do not consider freedom of migration a high-priority issue.

What the Libertarians really think about open boarders

Edited by JustBecause
Adding information about open borders
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DixonHur

DixonHur 11959

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, JustBecause said:

So the information that is cited is incorrect?

 

Really?

 

From the Libertarians:

  • Libertarianism is a moral and political philosophy that argues in favor of a strong presumption of letting people engage freely in mutually consensual activity and on minimizing coercion in society. In the modern political context, libertarians generally focus on government-enforced and government-facilitated coercion.
  • The right to migrate can be considered a corollary of the libertarian view that people should be free to do what they please (individually or collectively) unless it violates the rights of others.
  • Libertarians’ view of obligations to strangers has two core premises. First, no obligations to strangers beyond respecting their rights. Second, a very strong obligation to respect their rights. Together, these premises argue in favor of not letting concerns about harms to fellow nationals be a justification for opposing free migration.
  • Although libertarian theory does not really offer a case against free migration, libertarians have argued against free migration on consequentialist grounds (in terms of the detrimental effects that an open borders policy would have on moving towards or maintaining a libertarian society) as well as via the anarcho-capitalist counterfactual.
  • Even many libertarians who do support freer migration do not consider freedom of migration a high-priority issue.

What the Libertarians really think about open boarders

I like how you go to your chosen site to define what Libertarians believe instead of the actual Libertarian website...perhaps this will help..

Libertarians believe that if someone is peaceful, they should be welcome to immigrate to the United States.

Libertarians believe that people should be able to travel freely as long as they are peaceful. We welcome immigrants who come seeking a better life. The vast majority of immigrants are very peaceful and highly productive.

Indeed, the United States is a country of immigrants, of all backgrounds and walks of life…some families have just been here for more generations than others. Newcomers bring great vitality to our society.

A truly free market requires the free movement of people, not just products and ideas.

Whether they are from India or Mexico, whether they have advanced degrees or very little education, immigrants have one great thing in common: they bravely left their familiar surroundings in search of a better life. Many are fleeing extreme poverty and violence and are searching for a free and safe place to try to build their lives. We respect and admire their courage and are proud that they see the United States as a place of freedom, stability, and prosperity.

Of course, if someone has a record of violence, credible plans for violence, or acts violently, then Libertarians support blocking their entry, deporting, and/or prosecuting and imprisoning them, depending on the offense.

Libertarians do not support classifying undocumented immigrants as criminals. Our current immigration system is an embarrassment. People who would like to follow the legal procedures are unable to because these procedures are so complex and expensive and lengthy. If Americans want immigrants to enter through legal channels, we need to make those channels fair, reasonable, and accessible.

Link

 

Edited by DixonHur
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NowThis

NowThis 931

Posted
Posted

what is an "open boarder"?

So about the 400 caged humans, why not let them go into the US. Maybe some local churches will give them shelter, eventually they will find some manual labor work. Within a few months, I would recommend full citizenship. After all, they are never going back, so let them become Americans.  

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

An opinion piece from the Washington Examiner?  Really?  That's your source?

But, yes, there are people for open borders...they are called Libertarians.

Including one of Trump's own nominees to the fed:

https://beta-washingtonpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/beta.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/07/03/trump-fed-nominee-judy-shelton-once-advocated-open-borders-with-mexico/

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JustBecause

JustBecause 112

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

Last time I engaged a dumbass troll like this one the mods gave me a time out. Might have been deserved but, lesson learned. It’s probably the same guy anyway. So I’m parachuting out of this thread for the time being. 

Some of you on this thread and site really need to take a deep breath and a step back.  My reactions and posts were not in any way insulting to ANYONE but you all tend to pounce on anyone who slightly disagrees with you.  Some if the responses like "someone raping their mother" gets positive responses is just astounding.  Is this how you act in front of friends and co-workers?  Nope not in the least because here you are anonymous and everyone is Superman when there are no repercussions to your actions.  I never NEG anyone first.  Chillax

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11959

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, NowThis said:

to the land of America or deport? 

America.

Please provide an evidence based argument why not.  And before you cite "the law" please remember that illegal entry into the US is a misdemeanor. 

Do you also support caging someone for jay-walking?  Speeding?   

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NowThis

NowThis 931

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

America.

Please provide an evidence based argument why not.  And before you cite "the law" please remember that illegal entry into the US is a misdemeanor. 

Do you also support caging someone for jay-walking?  Speeding?   

read my post above. There's nothing that can be done to stop the flood of refugees. Since everyone here is against the wall, incarceration, or deportation - what other choice remains but to make them American citizens as soon as possible. Ankle chains are very inhumane and don't really have a practical purpsoe but some Surly confused people favor that for whatever reason.  There's no practical reason not to give them American citizenship as soon as the paperwork can be filled out. Heck, do it online at a processing center, probably take only 15-20 minutes per refugee. 

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11959

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, NowThis said:

read my post above. There's nothing that can be done to stop the flood of refugees. Since everyone here is against the wall, incarceration, or deportation - what other choice remains but to make them American citizens as soon as possible. Ankle chains are very inhumane and don't really have a practical purpsoe but some Surly confused people favor that for whatever reason.  There's no practical reason not to give them American citizenship as soon as the paperwork can be filled out. Heck, do it online at a processing center, probably take only 15-20 minutes per refugee. 

That's not an answer.  Why would you need to make them citizens immediately?

It's not a zero sum game.

Also, how about admitting you were wrong about Libertarians.  Otherwise you just look more like an uninformed hack

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NowThis

NowThis 931

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

That's not an answer.  Why would you need to make them citizens immediately?

It's not a zero sum game.

Also, how about admitting you were wrong about Libertarians.  Otherwise you just look more like an uninformed hack

it's the only logical answer.  What purpose does a delay in citizenship serve?  btw, i didn't post anything about Libertarians.  

are you for or against deportation of families who cross the border?

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9959

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, NowThis said:

it's the only logical answer.  What purpose does a delay in citizenship serve?  btw, i didn't post anything about Libertarians.  

are you for or against deportation of families who cross the border?

Let’s have a nation wide amnesty vote. I’m down. Pandering

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HtownHorn

HtownHorn 15235

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, hpslugga said:

I’ve already offered them. The fact that you don’t like them doesn’t change that reality and it only further advances my point: people like you would rather live in a fantasy world of Make Believe and Pretend than face reality. 

In your world America is cause of every ill in South America. So this is rich.

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11959

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, NowThis said:

it's the only logical answer.  What purpose does a delay in citizenship serve?  btw, i didn't post anything about Libertarians.  

are you for or against deportation of families who cross the border?

Oops, sorry, confused you for Just Because

Citizenship affords way more benefits than simply being a tourist or having a work permit.  There's a lost of real estate between having the ability to go shopping or work without being harassed by ICE, and being able to vote.

forgot to answer your second question...I'm against deporting families that cross the border.

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HtownHorn

HtownHorn 15235

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

America.

Please provide an evidence based argument why not.  And before you cite "the law" please remember that illegal entry into the US is a misdemeanor. 

Do you also support caging someone for jay-walking?  Speeding?   

So you are for the ICE removal operations this weekend? After all, these people were let in, and their day in court, and ordered removed.

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11959

Posted
Posted
Just now, HtownHorn said:

So you are for the ICE removal operations this weekend? After all, these people were let in, and their day in court, and ordered removed.

No, I'm against the idea of ICE.  I'm about 95-97% libertarian. 

See my post above for details on my immigration beliefs. 

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30593

Posted
Posted
On 7/8/2019 at 11:42 AM, triplehorn said:

Build the Wall ?

 

 

10470aralboat.jpg

 

Above: The vessel after the disease-ridden, raping, gang-belonging, murdering crew that was dragging it over a wall-less part of the border were arrested and hauled off.

Below: The lead ship of a caravan flotilla heading our way.

LgK2A.jpg

 

The president will propose a deep canal be built parallel to the wall to allow aircraft carriers to patrol these desert waters. He guarantees that Mexico will pay or he will increase tariffs. NO COLLUSION!

entersuez.jpg

 

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HtownHorn

HtownHorn 15235

Posted
Posted
Just now, DixonHur said:

No, I'm against the idea of ICE.  I'm about 95-97% libertarian. 

See my post above for details on my immigration beliefs. 

So you are against the people that go after the criminals that you claim should be deported. Interesting contradiction, much easier to say you want open borders and the end of American sovereignty. Tell me, if you went anywhere else in the world and entered that country illegally, what would be the consequences?

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4097

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

In your world America is cause of every ill in South America. So this is rich.

I’ve never said “every ill” mostly because i don’t believe it, and it’s not a reference to South America either. You’re not very good at this. Why is it that people like you absolutely depend on logical fallacies when you argue these issues? Why, instead of honestly addressing issues, giving facts/reasons/etc to support your positions, you instead believe in pure bullshit and then button it up with smartassed sounding phrases like “that’s rich” as if you had the foggiest clue what you were talking about? 

Edited by hpslugga
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HtownHorn

HtownHorn 15235

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

I’ve never said “every ill” mostly because i don’t believe it, and it’s not a reference to South America either. You’re not very good at this. Why is it that people like you absolutely depend on logical fallacies when you argue these issues? Why, instead of honestly addressing issues, giving facts/reasons/etc to support your positions, you instead believe in pure bullshit and then button it up with smartassed sounding phrases like “that’s rich” as if you had the foggiest clue what you were talking about? 

Because what you are saying is completely moronic.

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JustBecause

JustBecause 112

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

No, I'm against the idea of ICE.  I'm about 95-97% libertarian. 

See my post above for details on my immigration beliefs. 

The people who are still here after getting their day in court and were ordered deported should not obey the law? 

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30593

Posted
Posted
On 7/12/2019 at 8:43 AM, Zavala said:

 

No one denies that there is an immigration problem. Finding sensible and human policy is the issue.

I only watched a couple of those speakers. How many advocated concentration camps, unsanitary conditions, public vilification, and confiscation of babies?

This is disingenuous or stupid.

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NowThis

NowThis 931

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Oops, sorry, confused you for Just Because

Citizenship affords way more benefits than simply being a tourist or having a work permit.  There's a lost of real estate between having the ability to go shopping or work without being harassed by ICE, and being able to vote.

forgot to answer your second question...I'm against deporting families that cross the border.

what is the gap between having a work permit and on the track to citizenship and actually being a voting citizen? Aside from not being able to vote, what is the difference? 

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4097

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

America is not the bogeyman for every country that finds itself in a shitty situation.

Nobody said that it was a bogeyman. That’s just you making shit up again.

A couple pages ago, I listed specific examples (really just tips of icebergs) of US intervention in Central America that has directly impacted them today. 

You, on the other hand, completely ignore history at every given turn and give vague sentences like these and try to put a confident sounding spin on it, and you think you’re clever. You’re not clever, you are dishonest, you’re lying here and you’re absolutely wrong about absolutely everything that you’ve said. The thing is, I can actually prove that and I can prove these assertions. I don’t wish them to be true, but they are true. 

Edited by hpslugga
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hpslugga

hpslugga 4097

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

But it is for too many.

Seriously, it doesn’t need to be a “bogeyman” for “every country” in order for it to be true that our meddling in Central America has been the primary driver of these immigration/refugee crises.

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11959

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, HtownHorn said:

So you are against the people that go after the criminals that you claim should be deported. Interesting contradiction

Hello straw man...so your belief is that no one was ever deported prior to 2002?  You know ICE has only existed for 17 years, right? 

1 hour ago, HtownHorn said:

much easier to say you want open borders and the end of American sovereignty.

Sovereign State according to Black's Law:

A state with full sovereignty over all of its affairs, territory and existence.

Please explain how open borders would "end" America' sovereignty.

1 hour ago, HtownHorn said:

Tell me, if you went anywhere else in the world and entered that country illegally, what would be the consequences?

I was stopped in Mexico for not having a visa once...paid a small fine.  I think it was like $5.

I've also overstayed my visa in Europe before.  No one noticed, or seemed to care.

 

 

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 46168

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, F250 said:

 

 

 

First comment on the tweet, which I consistently see from people who claim that they are only concerned with following the law.  Of course when you dig deeper they fall back on the exact reasons from this article:

Replying to @CatoInstitute

Actually most people are OK with LEGAL immigration. It's the illegal immigration that we are all against. #IllegalImmigration #BorderCrisis

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11959

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, NowThis said:

what is the gap between having a work permit and on the track to citizenship and actually being a voting citizen? Aside from not being able to vote, what is the difference? 

That's a pretty fucking big one.  It's like asking, "what's the difference between being alive or dead...you know, apart from the being alive part"?

But if you need other examples, here you go:

  1. Having a US passport, which opens the world to you.  174 countries allow visa free travel for US citizens.
  2. Citizens cannot be deported for any crime
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NowThis

NowThis 931

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

That's a pretty fucking big one.  It's like asking, "what's the difference between being alive or dead...you know, apart from the being alive part"?

But if you need other examples, here you go:

  1. Having a US passport, which opens the world to you.  174 countries allow visa free travel for US citizens.
  2. Citizens cannot be deported for any crime

well if they are here for the rest of their lives, make them citizens immediately. Not really fair to impose tax burdens for permanent folks and not allow them to vote for years. Also unfair to not allow them to travel as freely as would citizens. Deportation for crimes is also deplorable, just imprison them as would anyone else. Heck if they steal a car, why not imprison them rather than setting them free back in Mexico? Lots of illegals are in jail right?

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11959

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, NowThis said:

well if they are here for the rest of their lives, make them citizens immediately. Not really fair to impose tax burdens for permanent folks and not allow them to vote for years. Also unfair to not allow them to travel as freely as would citizens. Deportation for crimes is also deplorable, just imprison them as would anyone else. Heck if they steal a car, why not imprison them rather than setting them free back in Mexico? Lots of illegals are in jail right?

If you're not going to debate the matter with facts, and simply rely on false dilemmas as the basis for your arguments then it's useless to engage you.  

If in fact, you are just too stupid to understand, then I apologize for the accusation, but you're still not worth of an honest debate.

Have a good life.

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NowThis

NowThis 931

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

If you're not going to debate the matter with facts, and simply rely on false dilemmas as the basis for your arguments then it's useless to engage you.  

If in fact, you are just too stupid to understand, then I apologize for the accusation, but you're still not worth of an honest debate.

Have a good life.

what if scenarios are the basis of policy.  Sorry to see that you don't want to address critical issues of life and death. 

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4097

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, NowThis said:

what if scenarios are the basis of policy

Actually, history and facts are the basis of policy.

And even when you tread into the what-if territory, it has to be realistic and based on evidence. For example, “what if the Iranian military air jumped into the US on jet propulsion packs, armed with fully automatic guns that shoot small tactical nuclear weapons at 150 weapons per second and kills all of us?!” is not a basis for foreign policy.

Edited by hpslugga
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retread

retread 2951

Posted
Posted

For the Rs, it's like no brown immigrants have ever come here. We have no idea what effect it would have. We don't know if they'd actually contribute or just drag down society. We can't take the chance that the browns will destroy our way of life. Many of them are dangerous gang members who will maraud through gated communities.

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30593

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, JustBecause said:

That's where you are wrong.  There are a lot of the Progressive left that believe there should be no borders.

I've heard this myself from such liberal spokespersons as Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, and the holy choir of Fox and Friends and all their friends, too. They're so much better at speaking for the libs than CNN, MSNBC, and Mother Jones.

The evidence is overwhelming!

 

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