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Easter thread (for those who are interested)

Armybrat

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Armybrat

Armybrat 40617

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No family gathering here yet. One son & wife are in Cancun, another picking his boys up at the other grandma’s house in Waco. The 3rd son is at home.

Easter dinner will consist of them coming by to pick up their shares of the crepe enchilada dinner Mrs. Brat has spent preparing for two days.

Lest we forget what Easter means to the Christian world, here is a beautiful version of Leonard Cohen’s Hallelujah sung by two young sisters:

 

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Hagbard Celine

Hagbard Celine 10599

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watched Ten Commandments for the 40th+ time last night and checked in on the gonzo/bruin game during commercials.

I always thought the commercialization of Easter was a post-war thing, but the first Easter-Egg roll on the whitehouse lawn was 1800s

the more you know:

abraham, moses, jesus and muhammad all died on earth, none ascended.

abraham was buried in the old city of Hebron (west bank)

moses died on Mount Nebo and was buried there

jesus has 5 different competing burial locations, although jersualem church of the holy sepulcher has the largest number of believers

but there is a common misconception outside of islam regarding the final fate of muhammad

A few months after the farewell pilgrimage, Muhammad fell ill and suffered for several days with fever, head pain, and weakness. He died on Monday, 8 June 632, in Medina, at the age of 62 or 63, in the house of his wife Aisha.

Muhammad was buried where he died in Aisha's house. During the reign of the Umayyad caliph al-Walid I, al-Masjid an-Nabawi (the Mosque of the Prophet) was expanded to include the site of Muhammad's tomb. The Green Dome above the tomb was built by the Mamluk sultan Al Mansur Qalawun in the 13th century, although the green color was added in the 16th century, under the reign of Ottoman sultan Suleiman the Magnificent. Among tombs adjacent to that of Muhammad are those of his companions (Sahabah), the first two Muslim caliphs Abu Bakr and Umar, and an empty one that Muslims believe awaits Jesus.

When Saud bin Abdul-Aziz took Medina in 1805, Muhammad's tomb was stripped of its gold and jewel ornamentation. Adherents to Wahhabism, Saud's followers, destroyed nearly every tomb dome in Medina in order to prevent their veneration, and the one of Muhammad is reported to have narrowly escaped.[202] Similar events took place in 1925, when the Saudi militias retook—and this time managed to keep—the city. In the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam, burial is to take place in unmarked graves. Although the practice is frowned upon by the Saudis, many pilgrims continue to practice a ziyarat—a ritual visit—to the tomb.

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Did church on the intertron. Beautiful weather today with no wind.

Spent Friday with my mom, who lives 90 miles away.

We get to see both sons at the end of this month.  Can't wait...and their momma still doesn't know.  It will be first time we've been together since NOV 2019.

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WhatTheBuck

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This is my eighth Easter in this community and I’ve never seen anyone post this before so I suppose it’s okay if I do. Are you ready to accept Dan Barker’s Easter Challenge?

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/freethoughtnow/easter-challenge/

Quote

An Easter Challenge For Christians

I HAVE AN EASTER challenge for Christians. My challenge is simply this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof. My straightforward request is merely that Christians tell me exactly what happened on the day that their most important doctrine was born.

Believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, “And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.” (I Corinthians 15:14-15)

The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul’s tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened.

Since the gospels do not always give precise times of day, it is permissible to make educated guesses. The narrative does not have to pretend to present a perfect picture – it only needs to give at least one plausible account of all of the facts. Additional explanation of the narrative may be set apart in parentheses. The important condition to the challenge, however, is that not one single biblical detail be omitted. Fair enough?

I have tried this challenge myself. I failed. An Assembly of God minister whom I was debating a couple of years ago on a Florida radio show loudly proclaimed over the air that he would send me the narrative in a few days. I am still waiting. After my debate at the University of Wisconsin, “Jesus of Nazareth: Messiah or Myth,” a Lutheran graduate student told me he accepted the challenge and would be contacting me in about a week. I have never heard from him. Both of these people, and others, agreed that the request was reasonable and crucial. Maybe they are slow readers.

 

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9 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

watched Ten Commandments for the 40th+ time last night and checked in on the gonzo/bruin game during commercials.

I always thought the commercialization of Easter was a post-war thing, but the first Easter-Egg roll on the whitehouse lawn was 1800s

the more you know:

abraham, moses, jesus and muhammad all died on earth, none ascended.

abraham was buried in the old city of Hebron (west bank)

moses died on Mount Nebo and was buried there

jesus has 5 different competing burial locations, although jersualem church of the holy sepulcher has the largest number of believers

but there is a common misconception outside of islam regarding the final fate of muhammad

 

Both Christians and Muslims believe Jesus ascended into heaven.

Traditional Christian doctrine holds that Jesus was killed, buried in stone tomb, and on the third day was resurrected. After a period appearing to the Apostles and some others, He ascended into heaven . 
 

Muslims have competing theories on the mechanics, but the basic belief is that the Romans believed they crucified and killed Jesus but in fact He ascended into heaven.  Death and resurrection not part of the story.

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Hagbard Celine

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Both Christians and Muslims believe Jesus ascended into heaven.

Where did the ascension take place?

Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee

Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)

Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)

John: No ascension

Paul: No ascension

Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)

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Hagbard Celine

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Paine also points out that everything in the bible is hearsay. For example, the message at the tomb (if it happened at all) took this path, at minimum, before it got to our eyes: God, angel(s), Mary, disciples, Gospel writers, copyists, translators. (The Gospels are all anonymous and we have no original versions.)

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Patricio Swayze

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Where did the ascension take place?
Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee
Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)
Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)
John: No ascension
Paul: No ascension
Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)

Wait, so not even the apostles can agree on whether homeboy got uploaded? Hell of a religion y’all bunch of weirdos got.
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deadshank

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9 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

Where did the ascension take place?

Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee

Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)

Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)

John: No ascension

Paul: No ascension

Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)

Paul?  The Book of Paul?

 

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formermav43

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19 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

Where did the ascension take place?

Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee

Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)

Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)

John: No ascension

Paul: No ascension

Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)

Bethany is located just outside Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives.

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33 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

Where did the ascension take place?

Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee

Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)

Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)

John: No ascension

Paul: No ascension

Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)

So first, I’m not arguing on a message board what did/didn’t happen just pointing out that it seemed your post was describing what Christians believe and seemed to get it wrong.

Paul mentions the ascension multiple times, he doesn’t mention where and he wasn’t a Gospel writer anyway and was doing something entirely different in his letters.  Those Gospel writers that do mention an Ascension are consistent on the place (Bethany is a town very close to Jerusalem, like an easy walk, on the slope of the  Mt. of Olives)— but disagree on the timing. 

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Hagbard Celine

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13 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

So first, I’m not arguing on a message board what did/didn’t happen just pointing out that it seemed your post was describing what Christians believe and seemed to get it wrong.

Paul mentions the ascension multiple times, he doesn’t mention where and he wasn’t a Gospel writer anyway and was doing something entirely different in his letters.  Those Gospel writers that do mention an Ascension are consistent on the place (Bethany is a town very close to Jerusalem, like an easy walk, on the slope of the  Mt. of Olives)— but disagree on the timing. 

by stating that "christians believe" and "moslems believe" you are in fact arguing on a message board about what did/didn't happen because your position is that there is a homogenous monolithic global "single" christian belief shared by all christians and a global "single" muslim belief shared by all muslims.

in the case of the latter, you clearly didn't read my original post:

Among tombs adjacent to that of Muhammad are those of his companions (Sahabah), the first two Muslim caliphs Abu Bakr and Umar, and an empty one that Muslims believe awaits Jesus.

if muslims believe in jesus' ascension, why, 600 years after jesus' death, did they build a tomb for him on earth next to the tomb of the prophet muhammad who died on earth in 631 or 632, and why do "they" continue to believe to this very day that the tomb is for jesus?

 

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WhatTheBuck

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14 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Those Gospel writers that do mention an Ascension are consistent on the place (Bethany is a town very close to Jerusalem, like an easy walk, on the slope of the  Mt. of Olives)— but disagree on the timing. 

Don’t hurt yourself with those mental gymnastics. 

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Hagbard Celine

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here's the rest of whatthebuck's posted link that is necessary for anyone wanting to continue

+++

Many bible stories are given only once or twice, and are therefore hard to confirm. The author of Matthew, for example, was the only one to mention that at the crucifixion dead people emerged from the graves of Jerusalem, walking around showing themselves to everyone–an amazing event that could hardly escape the notice of the other Gospel writers, or any other historians of the period. But though the silence of others might weaken the likelihood of a story, it does not disprove it. Disconfirmation comes with contradictions.

Thomas Paine tackled this matter two hundred years ago in The Age of Reason, stumbling across dozens of New Testament discrepancies:

“I lay it down as a position which cannot be controverted,” he wrote, “first, that the agreement of all the parts of a story does not prove that story to be true, because the parts may agree and the whole may be false; secondly, that the disagreement of the parts of a story proves the whole cannot be true.“

Since Easter is told by five different writers, it gives one of the best chances to confirm or disconfirm the account. Christians should welcome the opportunity.

One of the first problems I found is in Matthew 28:2, after two women arrived at the tomb: “And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.” (Let’s ignore the fact that no other writer mentioned this “great earthquake.”) This story says that the stone was rolled away after the women arrived, in their presence.

Yet Mark’s Gospel says it happened before the women arrived: “And they said among themselves, Who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.”

Luke writes: “And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.” John agrees. No earthquake, no rolling stone. It is a three-to-one vote: Matthew loses. (Or else the other three are wrong.) The event cannot have happened both before and after they arrived.

Some bible defenders assert that Matthew 28:2 was intended to be understood in the past perfect, showing what had happened before the women arrived. But the entire passage is in the aorist (past) tense, and it reads, in context, like a simple chronological account. Matthew 28:2 begins, “And, behold,” not “For, behold.” If this verse can be so easily shuffled around, then what is to keep us from putting the flood before the ark, or the crucifixion before the nativity?

Another glaring problem is the fact that in Matthew the first post-resurrection appearance of Jesus to the disciples happened on a mountain in Galilee (not in Jerusalem, as most Christians believe), as predicted by the angel sitting on the newly moved rock: “And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him.” This must have been of supreme importance, since this was the message of God via the angel(s) at the tomb. Jesus had even predicted this himself sixty hours earlier, during the Last Supper (Matthew 26:32).

After receiving this angelic message, “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.” (Matthew 28:16-17) Reading this at face value, and in context, it is clear that Matthew intends this to have been the first appearance. Otherwise, if Jesus had been seen before this time, why did some doubt?

Mark agrees with Matthew’s account of the angel’s Galilee message, but gives a different story about the first appearance. Luke and John give different angel messages and then radically contradict Matthew. Luke shows the first appearance on the road to Emmaus and then in a room in Jerusalem. John says it happened later than evening in a room, minus Thomas. These angel messages, locations, and travels during the day are impossible to reconcile.

Believers sometimes use the analogy of the five blind men examining an elephant, all coming away with a different definition: tree trunk (leg), rope (tail), hose (trunk), wall (side), and fabric (ear). People who use this argument forget that each of the blind men was wrong: an elephant is not a rope or a tree. You can put the five parts together to arrive at a noncontradictory aggregate of the entire animal. This hasn’t been done with the resurrection.

Another analogy sometimes used by apologists is comparing the resurrection contradictions to differing accounts given by witnesses of an auto accident. If one witness said the vehicle was green and the other said it was blue, that could be accounted for by different angles, lighting, perception, or definitions of words. The important thing, they claim, is that they do agree on the basic story–there was an accident, there was a resurrection.

I am not a fundamentalist inerrantist. I’m not demanding that the evangelists must have been expert, infallible witnesses. (None of them claims to have been at the tomb itself, anyway.) But what if one person said the auto accident happened in Chicago and the other said it happened in Milwaukee? At least one of these witnesses has serious problems with the truth.

Luke says the post-resurrection appearance happened in Jerusalem, but Matthew says it happened in Galilee, sixty to one hundred miles away! Could they all have traveled 150 miles that day, by foot, trudging up to Galilee for the first appearance, then back to Jerusalem for the evening meal? There is no mention of any horses, but twelve well-conditioned thoroughbreds racing at breakneck speed, as the crow flies, would need about five hours for the trip, without a rest. And during this madcap scenario, could Jesus have found time for a leisurely stroll to Emmaus, accepting, “toward evening,” an invitation to dinner? Something is very wrong here.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Of course, none of these contradictions prove that the resurrection did not happen, but they do throw considerable doubt on the reliability of the supposed witnesses. Some of them were wrong. Maybe they were all wrong.

This challenge could be harder. I could ask why reports of supernatural beings, vanishing and materializing out of thin air, long-dead corpses coming back to life, and people levitating should be given serious consideration at all. Thomas Paine was one of the first to point out that outrageous claims require outrageous proof.

Protestants and Catholics seem to have no trouble applying healthy skepticism to the miracles of Islam, or to the “historical” visit between Joseph Smith and the angel Moroni. Why should Christians treat their own outrageous claims any differently? Why should someone who was not there be any more eager to believe than doubting Thomas, who lived during that time, or the other disciples who said that the women’s news from the tomb “seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not” (Luke 24:11)?

Paine also points out that everything in the bible is hearsay. For example, the message at the tomb (if it happened at all) took this path, at minimum, before it got to our eyes: God, angel(s), Mary, disciples, Gospel writers, copyists, translators. (The Gospels are all anonymous and we have no original versions.)

But first things first: Christians, either tell me exactly what happened on Easter Sunday, or let’s leave the Jesus myth buried next to Eastre (Ishtar, Astarte), the pagan Goddess of Spring after whom your holiday was named.

Here are some of the discrepancies among the resurrection accounts:

 

What time did the women visit the tomb?

Matthew: “as it began to dawn” (28:1)

Mark: “very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun” (16:2, KJV); “when the sun had risen” (NRSV); “just after sunrise” (NIV)

Luke: “very early in the morning” (24:1, KJV) “at early dawn” (NRSV)

John: “when it was yet dark” (20:1)

 

Who were the women?

Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)

Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)

Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)

John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)

 

What was their purpose?

Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)

Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)

Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)

John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)

 

Was the tomb open when they arrived?

Matthew: No (28:2)

Mark: Yes (16:4)

Luke: Yes (24:2)

John: Yes (20:1)

 

Who was at the tomb when they arrived?

Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)

Mark: One young man (16:5)

Luke: Two men (24:4)

John: Two angels (20:12)

 

Where were these messengers situated?

Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)

Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)

Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)

John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)

 

What did the messenger(s) say?

Matthew: “Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.” (28:5-7)

Mark: “Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.” (16:6-7)

Luke: “Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.” (24:5-7)

John: “Woman, why weepest thou?” (20:13)

 

Did the women tell what happened?

Matthew: Yes (28:8)

Mark: No. “Neither said they any thing to any man.” (16:8)

Luke: Yes. “And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest.” (24:9, 22-24)

John: Yes (20:18)

 

When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?

Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)

Mark: Yes (16:10,11)

Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)

John: No (20:2)

 

When did Mary first see Jesus?

Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)

Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)

John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)

 

Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?

Matthew: Yes (28:9)

John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)

 

After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?

Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)

Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)

Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)

John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)

Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)

 

Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?

Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)

Mark: To two in the country, to eleven “as they sat at meat” (16:12,14)

Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)

John: In a room, at evening (20:19)

 

Did the disciples believe the two men?

Mark: No (16:13)

Luke: Yes (24:34–it is the group speaking here, not the two)

 

What happened at the appearance?

Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, “Go preach.” (28:17-20)

Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said “Go preach” (16:14-19)

Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)

John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)

 

Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?

Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday

Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday

John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)

Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)

 

Where did the ascension take place?

Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee

Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)

Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)

John: No ascension

Paul: No ascension

Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)

Edited by Hagbard Celine
whatthebuck not washpark
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I’m pretty sure again my original post I wrote “traditional Christian doctrine holds that....” I’m having a hard time figuring out what you’re so worked up about. It’s not really a shockingly controversial statement to say that this is what traditionally, Christians have indeed believed. 
 

Shia and Sunni Muslims absolutely believe in Jesus’ ascension and it is a Hadith that he will come back, destroy the antichrist, and then die and be buried next to Muhammad in the tomb you are referring to. The Ahmadi sect believes that he escaped the cross and died in India, so the tomb you’re talking about isn’t really relevant— they have a different place where they think he is.  And there’s a strong dispute within Islam over whether Ahmadis are Muslim. 
 

I’m not sure why you’re upset over a pretty factual description of what the two major non-Jewish Abrahamic religions have traditionally claimed on this. I’m not saying either one is correct or historical. 
 


 


 

 

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8 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Don’t hurt yourself with those mental gymnastics. 

It’s not really mental gymnastics, the village exists to this day, is located on the Mount of Olives a couple miles from Jerusalem.  Some Gospel writers claim Jesus hung out there prior to the entry into Jerusalem. The time line is irreconcilable. The geography not so much.

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Hagbard Celine

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4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’m pretty sure again my original post I wrote “traditional Christian doctrine holds that....” I’m having a hard time figuring out what you’re so worked up about. It’s not really a shockingly controversial statement to say that this is what traditionally, Christians have indeed believed. Shia and Sunni Muslims absolutely believe in Jesus’ ascension and it is a Hadith that he will come back, destroy the antichrist, and then die and be buried next to Muhammad in the tomb you are referring to. The Ahmadi sect believes that he escaped the cross and died in India, so the tomb you’re talking about isn’t really relevant— they have a different place where they think he is.  And there’s a strong dispute within Islam over whether Ahmadis are Muslim. I’m not sure why you’re upset over a pretty factual description of what the two major non-Jewish Abrahamic religions have traditionally claimed on this. I’m not saying either one is correct or historical. 

not worked up.  i went from your second post, not the first, where you did caveat with "traditional"

with your additional facts in this post above we are now in agreement, with the exception to the question (to which i don't know the answer which is why i asked) why the jesus tomb next to muhammad was built in the first place.  you say it is because "they" expect the 2nd coming which is so complex i can't even begin to digest it all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28685

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24 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s not really mental gymnastics, the village exists to this day, is located on the Mount of Olives a couple miles from Jerusalem.  Some Gospel writers claim Jesus hung out there prior to the entry into Jerusalem. The time line is irreconcilable. The geography not so much.

I grew up in Amish country. I know all about tourist traps.

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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 27112

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Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

Maybe getting you to read your bible, for one. In a perfect world it would also mean getting you to think about it. 

Oh I’ve done both. You seem to want to make a point here. Why don’t you just come out and say it?

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formermav43

formermav43 4599

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Just now, Sawbonz said:

Oh I’ve done both. You seem to want to make a point here. Why don’t you just come out and say it?

You know what the point is.

This is every thread remotely connected to religion on the internet ever. As it was in the beginning is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

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Doc Reeves

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24 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Contemporary Americans continually attempt to proscribe current values on the past. The Gospels are not history. Treating them as such will lead to a dissatisfaction.

True, but they do have history in them which give way to an entire world of theories, hypothesis and speculation which in ways help define people’s faith just as much as the events themselves.

I think your point is absolutely correct that people of Christian faith are greatly unaware of the evolution of their faith and think that the views they hold today must have been similar at the core to Christians of the past. I mean, there’s been significant evolution in just the last 50-60 years.

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WhatTheBuck

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21 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

And that’s supposed to accomplish what?

In your case? Nothing, apparently. Absolutely nothing. Do you even own a bible? If so, have you ever read it? If you call yourself a Christian, does your scripture have anything to do with what you believe?

Right now I’m guessing no, no, and no. 

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Sawbonz

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Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

In your case? Nothing, apparently. Absolutely nothing. Do you even own a bible? If so, have you ever read it? If you call yourself a Christian, does your scripture have anything to do with what you believe?

Right now I’m guessing no, no, and no. 

You would be wrong on all counts. Still waiting for you to make your point

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washparkhorn

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3 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

You would be wrong on all counts. Still waiting for you to make your point

He's just here to mock people of faith on Easter. My Methodist faith tells me to pray for him, but not judge him for his questionable taste. We all follow different paths when it comes to matters of faith. 

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WhatTheBuck

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11 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

He's just here to mock people of faith on Easter. My Methodist faith tells me to pray for him, but not judge him for his questionable taste. We all follow different paths when it comes to matters of faith. 

Recommending that Christians read their bibles on Easter Sunday. Such heresy. String me up. 

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1 hour ago, Hagbard Celine said:

not worked up.  i went from your second post, not the first, where you did caveat with "traditional"

with your additional facts in this post above we are now in agreement, with the exception to the question (to which i don't know the answer which is why i asked) why the jesus tomb next to muhammad was built in the first place.  you say it is because "they" expect the 2nd coming which is so complex i can't even begin to digest it all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming

I’m not trying to “other” Muslims or paint them as a monolith, clearly with a billion or so Muslims there’s a lot of room for how individuals experience Islam. But still, at some point you have to speak in categories or else the concept of a shared faith disappears. 
 

The thing to remember about Jesus in Islam is that he’s a Muslim Prophet. He’s not divine, he’s not passing on the foundations of Christianity— he’s a Muslim prophet and Christians, Jews, and Romans alike get him all wrong.  Hence the need for Muhammad to set things straight yet again, for the last time. And in Islam, Jesus will come back  around the same time as the Madhi, who will appear at the end of the world to eliminate evil and injustice and will establish Islam.  Jesus— who never died— is kind of going to be the Mahdi’s right hand man and according to Muslims is actually going to take down the Christian churches and turn Christians into Muslims. And when Jesus dies after coming back the second time, he’ll need an honorable tomb next to the Prophet and so they have one waiting for him. 
 

The Mahdi’s identity gets super complicated and here is where you begin to wander into Sunni vs. Shia territory and step on toes if you get too insistent.

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