2018 NBA Offseason Thread -- News, Free Agency, Trades, Etc

[aggie08 21505]

*with the obvious caveat being if Kawhi lights the world on fire next year, then you do everything you can to land a legit Top 5 player, regardless of potential drama.

[Vic Mackey 47089]

...

[ernest_t_bass 1196]

Math?

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

Who cares....

Hall of Fame this weekend..... Dirk weighs in.  LOL!  Gotta love him, but he brings up a great discussion. 

Two of the top 10 PGs are going into the HOF this weekend.  Who was better?  Both played for what seemed like forever, was one better in their prime vs overall?  USA vs Canada.  Dallas vs Phoenix.  Who you got?  Nice guy Nash or Drunky abuser Kidd?

1	Jason Kidd*	1995	2013	1391	1350	36.0	4.5	11.2	.400	1.4	4.1	.349	3.0	7.1	.429	.464	2.2	2.8	.785	1.3	5.0	6.3	8.7	1.9	0.3	2.9	1.8	12.6
2	Steve Nash*	1997	2014	1217	1053	31.3	5.2	10.6	.490	1.4	3.2	.428	3.8	7.4	.518	.556	2.5	2.8	.904	0.5	2.5	3.0	8.5	0.7	0.1	2.9	1.6	14.3

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=zaQZv

Who you got as we're in the offseason.....

[CBT 1282]

I love Kidd for 2011, but it's Nash 100%. 

[HookEm 2467]

Nash

[Goo Punch 4275]

Steve Nash is one of the best all around athletes of his generation. A two time NBA MVP who could have gone pro in soccer or hockey, and probably anything else he tries his hand at. Unreal athlete.

[UTDD 362]

I'm trying to imagine Nash playing today in Golden State's offense with that roster minus Curry.  That would be a lot of fun to watch.  I think today's game would benefit his skill set even more than during his playing days.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18550]

Tough call between Nash and Kidd. Each had giant holes in their games. Nash was a turnstile on defense. Kidd couldn't shoot. I'd lean toward Kidd overall, though. I think he did a better job at making the players around him better.

[Goo Punch 4275]

7 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Tough call between Nash and Kidd. Each had giant holes in their games. Nash was a turnstile on defense. Kidd couldn't shoot. I'd lean toward Kidd overall, though. I think he did a better job at making the players around him better.

jason kidd couldn't shoot and yet Nash was one of the greatest shooters ever. it's not even close. Nash shot .490/.428/.904 for a career. That's insane. both were similar as play makers except for the fact that Nash was a remarkable shooter as well. Nash >>>>> Kidd.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18550]

Shooting is literally the only thing that Nash could do better than Kidd on a basketball court. Granted, Nash was one of the best shooters ever, but that's only one part of the game. Nash was one of the worst defensive players I've ever seen. I just can't get past that for however many buckets he scored or assisted on, he was just as likely to give back up at the other end of the court.

Kidd had such a larger impact on both sides of the court. He was a fantastic defender (9 times 1st or 2nd team all-defense) and one of the best rebounding point guards of all time. He also impacted the game in a way that rarely shows up in the box score. He had an innate vision and feel for the game and basketball IQ that you could not teach.

[aggie08 21505]

Shooting is, literally, the most important singular skill in basketball.

[Goo Punch 4275]

I can acquire all the defense i want to support Nash, but there's no replacing 50/40/90 along with his playmaking ability. When the game is on the line I want the ball in the hands of the guy who can get his own shot just as easily as he can create one for a teammate.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Goo Punch

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Nash was the catalyst for some very fun teams in Dallas and Phoenix. from an entertainment standpoint, Ill take Nash. I wasnt exactly sold on Kenyon Martin, Jason Kidd, Kerry Kittles and Keith Van Horn doing anything exciting

[Mitch Cumsteen 18550]

3 hours ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Nash was the catalyst for some very fun teams in Dallas and Phoenix. from an entertainment standpoint, Ill take Nash. I wasnt exactly sold on Kenyon Martin, Jason Kidd, Kerry Kittles and Keith Van Horn doing anything exciting

That's not Jason Kidd's fault. You think Steve Nash is dragging those scrubs to the NBA finals? Hell, Steve Nash never dragged ANYBODY to the NBA finals. If you weren't entertained by Jason Kidd's basketball playing, then I don't know what to tell you. 

5 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

I can acquire all the defense i want to support Nash, but there's no replacing 50/40/90 along with his playmaking ability. When the game is on the line I want the ball in the hands of the guy who can get his own shot just as easily as he can create one for a teammate.

And I'll take the guy who has a greater impact on both ends of the court during the other 47 minutes of the game.

5 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Shooting is, literally, the most important singular skill in basketball.

Really? Would you rather have Steve Nash or Magic? I'm not trying to downplay the importance of shooting in the game, but go down whatever list you can find of the greatest players in NBA history and none of them (other than Larry Bird) were considered great shooters. MJ - not a great shooter. LBJ - not a great shooter. Magic, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, etc. None of them were great shooters. Most of them weren't even considered good shooters. There are a hundred ways to impact a basketball game other than shooting, and in my humble opinion, Jason Kidd did just about all of them better than Steve Nash.

[gsoda3 3263]

 nash could get a shot anytime he wanted as long as it was inside the 3 point line.  he can't do what steph does.

[Goo Punch 4275]

28 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

That's not Jason Kidd's fault. You think Steve Nash is dragging those scrubs to the NBA finals? Hell, Steve Nash never dragged ANYBODY to the NBA finals. If you weren't entertained by Jason Kidd's basketball playing, then I don't know what to tell you. 

And I'll take the guy who has a greater impact on both ends of the court during the other 47 minutes of the game.

Really? Would you rather have Steve Nash or Magic? I'm not trying to downplay the importance of shooting in the game, but go down whatever list you can find of the greatest players in NBA history and none of them (other than Larry Bird) were considered great shooters. MJ - not a great shooter. LBJ - not a great shooter. Magic, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, etc. None of them were great shooters. Most of them weren't even considered good shooters. There are a hundred ways to impact a basketball game other than shooting, and in my humble opinion, Jason Kidd did just about all of them better than Steve Nash.

Shooting is the only thing that J'Covan Brown has on Demarcus Holland. Who did you rate more highly? Defense win championships in a team sense, but offensive players and offensive plays actually win titles. Nash is so far ahead of Kidd offensively it's not even debatable. Jason Kidd was mediocre in every facet of scoring, yet that's who you want with the ball in his hands at the end of the game? Over Steve Nash? You're acting as if individual defense is more important than individual offense, and i don't know anybody else who feels that way. You can get defense everywhere; what you cant get anywhere is a play maker and point guard like Nash, who is at least Jason Kidd's equal as a creator and light years ahead of him as a shooter

Edited September 7, 2018 by Goo Punch

[aggie08 21505]

4 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

That's not Jason Kidd's fault. You think Steve Nash is dragging those scrubs to the NBA finals? .

In the 00's Eastern Conference? Probably.

[aggie08 21505]

4 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Really? Would you rather have Steve Nash or Magic? I'm not trying to downplay the importance of shooting in the game, but go down whatever list you can find of the greatest players in NBA history and none of them (other than Larry Bird) were considered great shooters. MJ - not a great shooter. LBJ - not a great shooter. Magic, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, etc. None of them were great shooters. Most of them weren't even considered good shooters. There are a hundred ways to impact a basketball game other than shooting, and in my humble opinion, Jason Kidd did just about all of them better than Steve Nash.

Sure, shooting on its own isn't enough to make a player great. Steve Kerr isn't on anyone's all-time list. But when two players are close in status, I'll take the better shooter every day of the week.

I think Nash is a little underrated today. MVP's are a big deal, but when you think of his, everyone's first reaction is, "Yeah, but Shaq should have won one of those, and he never even made it to the Finals." While true (thanks Robert Horry), it downplays Nash's importance on the game. He's as responsible as anyone for dragging the league out the iso ball dark ages and shaping modern offenses. He was the first guy since Magic that made it cool to be a pass first player.

[ernest_t_bass 1196]

Beautiful thing about opinions is that everyone has one, and everyone is entitled to their own.

The shitty thing about opinions is that Derka's is always right.  Don't believe me?  Just ask him.

[UTDD 362]

7 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

 nash could get a shot anytime he wanted as long as it was inside the 3 point line.  he can't do what steph does.

No one can do what Steph does especially causing such gravity from opposing defenses, but Nash was nearly a 43% shooter from 3 for his career, which is pretty amazing frankly and just below Steph's career percentage (.436 vs .428).  Plus, his shooting tailed off his last four years (3 years under 40% from 3 versus only one injury season shooting under 40% in just 40 games prior to that in his entire career) as he aged (he was over 36 from that point) so his percentage before that was even higher.  I think he would be fine with today's schemes favoring his style of play even more than during his own playing days and his playmaking would still be dangerous.  His poor defense would still be bad though.

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

7 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Sure, shooting on its own isn't enough to make a player great. Steve Kerr isn't on anyone's all-time list. But when two players are close in status, I'll take the better shooter every day of the week.

I think Nash is a little underrated today. MVP's are a big deal, but when you think of his, everyone's first reaction is, "Yeah, but Shaq should have won one of those, and he never even made it to the Finals." While true (thanks Robert Horry), it downplays Nash's importance on the game. He's as responsible as anyone for dragging the league out the iso ball dark ages and shaping modern offenses. He was the first guy since Magic that made it cool to be a pass first player.

Wasn't Kidd a pass first player???  He was in the Finals much earlier than Nash was when he found D'Antoni.  For argument sake, I think you have to take the MDA effect into account with Nash as well,  a system which highlights and pushes forward point guards.  One could make the argument, Nash was the vessel in which MDA worked his magic, not Nash as a force of nature himself.  Nash was a good player in Dallas but wasn't capturing imaginations there.

 

[aggie08 21505]

1 hour ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Wasn't Kidd a pass first player???  He was in the Finals much earlier than Nash was when he found D'Antoni.  For argument sake, I think you have to take the MDA effect into account with Nash as well,  a system which highlights and pushes forward point guards.  One could make the argument, Nash was the vessel in which MDA worked his magic, not Nash as a force of nature himself.  Nash was a good player in Dallas but wasn't capturing imaginations there.

 

But, as pointed out earlier, the Nets weren't exactly cool (until Vinsanity came aboard), and Kidd was never in realistic MVP conversation even during his prime. Those Finals teams were just seen as fodder for the West. They would have struggled to get out of the first round in the West and were largely treated as such. They were just a cute story.

I agree with you on D'antoni. He obviously deserves credit as well (and the Kings and Mavs before him) for bucking the status quo. But, as he's proven, his offenses don't exactly work everywhere. He's lucked into two (now three with Paul) of the best, most creative ballhandlers/playmakers of all time. 

[aggie08 21505]

Correction: I forgot that Kidd did finish 2nd to Duncan in MVP voting one year.

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

46 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

But, as pointed out earlier, the Nets weren't exactly cool (until Vinsanity came aboard), and Kidd was never in realistic MVP conversation even during his prime. Those Finals teams were just seen as fodder for the West. They would have struggled to get out of the first round in the West and were largely treated as such. They were just a cute story.

I agree with you on D'antoni. He obviously deserves credit as well (and the Kings and Mavs before him) for bucking the status quo. But, as he's proven, his offenses don't exactly work everywhere. He's lucked into two (now three with Paul) of the best, most creative ballhandlers/playmakers of all time. 

I'm not really understanding what being "cool" has to do with who's a better basketball player.  You're statement about dragging the league out of the ISO era seems misapplied.  The difference was in the rule changes implemented by the NBA, which was going through and offensive dark ages.  MDA's system was the most high profile in taking advantage of these new rules but it wasn't because Nash was some force of nature like Magic or Jordan or Lebron, or even Steph who's distance has influenced the game.  But again, it doesn't matter who's cooler.   Although I would actually posit that Kidd, at one time, was considered pretty cool.  In 2008, the NBA released their top 10 jersey sales through their stores for the decade and Kidd was 8th, behind Dwyane Wade and in front of Vince Carter. 

As you already noted, Kidd was 2nd in MVP voting and 5th in 99'.  He was top 10 5 times in MVP and made 2 more All star teams (10-8).  Kidd also led in 1st All NBA teams over Nash, 5-3 and as noted by Mitch, when it comes to the other half of basketball, defense, there was no contest.  Don't get me wrong, I love me some Steve Nash and Jason Kidd is sort of a dick who hits women so I'm not comparing the men, just the basketball players....

 

[Goo Punch 4275]

6 hours ago, ernest_t_bass said:

Beautiful thing about opinions is that everyone has one, and everyone is entitled to their own.

The shitty thing about opinions is that Derka's is always right.  Don't believe me?  Just ask him.

oh my god, i had the gall to defend my take? 

 

jesus christ nancy, find more inane crap to whine about. 

[gsoda3 3263]

No one can do what Steph does especially causing such gravity from opposing defenses, but Nash was nearly a 43% shooter from 3 for his career, which is pretty amazing frankly and just below Steph's career percentage (.436 vs .428).  Plus, his shooting tailed off his last four years (3 years under 40% from 3 versus only one injury season shooting under 40% in just 40 games prior to that in his entire career) as he aged (he was over 36 from that point) so his percentage before that was even higher.  I think he would be fine with today's schemes favoring his style of play even more than during his own playing days and his playmaking would still be dangerous.  His poor defense would still be bad though.

Yeah Nash was a good three point shooter, but a lot of his threes came off pick and rolls instead of one on one situations where he created his own shot. He'd be great in the modern Houston system.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18550]

10 hours ago, aggie08 said:

I think Nash is a little underrated today. MVP's are a big deal, but when you think of his, everyone's first reaction is, "Yeah, but Shaq should have won one of those, and he never even made it to the Finals." While true (thanks Robert Horry), it downplays Nash's importance on the game. He's as responsible as anyone for dragging the league out the iso ball dark ages and shaping modern offenses. He was the first guy since Magic that made it cool to be a pass first player.

I gotta be honest, when talking about a pass first player, I think of Jason Kidd 100 times over before ever considering Steve Nash. Nash didn't make it cool to be a pass first point guard. He made it cool to play in MDA's offense and run a thousand pick and rolls with Amare Stoudemire. And he was fucking great at it.

Let's not act like Kidd was some sort of detriment on the offensive end of the court because he couldn't shoot the ball like Nash. He led the league in assists per game 5 times and finished second another 3 times. And he wasn't doing it in a 7 seconds or less up and down free for all. 

 

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

Regardless of where folks fall on the Nash vs Kidd debate, it's a fun conversation and a lot better than worrying about how much Lebron makes per game.  Hope it continues as it's so close there is really no definitive answer...... unless you disagree with me!  lol.

 

[Goo Punch 4275]

5 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I gotta be honest, when talking about a pass first player, I think of Jason Kidd 100 times over before ever considering Steve Nash.

 

Jason Kidd- 8.7 APG, 11.2 FGA

Steve Nash- 8.5 APG, 10.6 FGA

[aggie08 21505]

It also depends how you personally define greatness. If we're splitting hairs, Jason Kidd probably had the better overall career. I suppose that makes him the better player. But, at their peaks, I think Nash was the superior, more impactful player by a decent margin.

Nash definitely has a sizeable lead in getting the highest number of marginal players fucking paid. Richard Jefferson and San Antonio may disagree.

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

13 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

It also depends how you personally define greatness. If we're splitting hairs, Jason Kidd probably had the better overall career. I suppose that makes him the better player. But, at their peaks, I think Nash was the superior, more impactful player by a decent margin.

Now someone is sniffing the right answer......

 

[ernest_t_bass 1196]

1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

oh my god, i had the gall to defend my take? 

 

You do realize that it is possible to defend one's "take" without shitting on others, right?  You're the absolute fucking worst. 

[Goo Punch 4275]

10 minutes ago, ernest_t_bass said:

You do realize that it is possible to defend one's "take" without shitting on others, right?  You're the absolute fucking worst. 

seriously- you are the only person here taking offense to anything i'm saying. nothing i've said has approached "shitting on" anyone. you're crying over nothing and making mountains out of, i dunno, whatever is smaller than a mole hill. get a grip. or just put me in ignore, as it is clear that you do not have the capacity to view any of my posts without losing your composure. 

 edit: or don't. just continue to be a giant baby who gets upset at literally every post i make. your call.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Goo Punch

[Mitch Cumsteen 18550]

28 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Jason Kidd- 8.7 APG, 11.2 FGA

Steve Nash- 8.5 APG, 10.6 FGA

Numbers be damned, it was more a comment about their styles of play. Nash, because he was such a good shooter, always seemed to be looking for his shot first and had to be defended accordingly. Kidd, because he was a shitty shooter, always seemed to be trying to set up his teammates first. All of this being subjective, of course, but that's just how I saw them.

 

31 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Nash definitely has a sizeable lead in getting the highest number of marginal players fucking paid. Richard Jefferson and San Antonio may disagree.

Are you serious? Marginal players like Amare Stoudemire and Joe Johnson, who both made all star teams while NOT being teammates with Nash? Or are you talking about Kenyon Martin, Kerry Kittles and the aforementioned Dick Jefferson.

[aggie08 21505]

20 minutes ago, ernest_t_bass said:

You do realize that it is possible to defend one's "take" without shitting on others, right?  You're the absolute fucking worst. 

Who, exactly, is getting "shit on" by Derka prioritizing offense and shooting over Kidd's overall skillset in his argument? Feels like a pretty civil difference of opinion to me.

[Goo Punch 4275]

49 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

It also depends how you personally define greatness. If we're splitting hairs, Jason Kidd probably had the better overall career. I suppose that makes him the better player. But, at their peaks, I think Nash was the superior, more impactful player by a decent margin.

Nash definitely has a sizeable lead in getting the highest number of marginal players fucking paid. Richard Jefferson and San Antonio may disagree.

ftr i love both guys and this is probably the post that says it best for me.

[immortal13 4059]

The 50/40/90 factor puts Nash over Kidd in my book. That is an exclusive club that Kidd never sniffed. 

[CBT 1282]

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Lol. Love Dirk. What do rocket and spurs fans think of him? I'd guess they "hate him" because hes a rival player but really they like and respect him.

[Dutchrudder 11141]

Dirks cool in my book. Legit shooter, possibly the best euro player of all time, good guy all around, and a transcendent 2011 playoffs that got his franchise their first ring over the hated Miami superteam. I think that's pretty cool, and more than most guys can hope for in their careers. It's also pretty awesome how loyal he has been to the Mavericks, even while living in the era of Lebron and KD stacking teams in their favor to the point we know who will win the championship before the season starts. Gotta give him big kudos for not bailing or forcing a trade like weaker minded players.

[Goo Punch 4275]

lol, "weaker minded players."

[gsoda3 3263]

possibly the best euro of all time....???

 

also it's worth remembering jkidd's second stint with dallas, he was not a bad shooter at all.  he was one of the nba's better shooters in terms of 3P% and 3PM, especially in the playoffs.

[zork 629]

5 hours ago, Dutchrudder said:

Dirks cool in my book. Legit shooter, possibly the best euro player of all time, good guy all around, and a transcendent 2011 playoffs that got his franchise their first ring over the hated Miami superteam. I think that's pretty cool, and more than most guys can hope for in their careers. It's also pretty awesome how loyal he has been to the Mavericks, even while living in the era of Lebron and KD stacking teams in their favor to the point we know who will win the championship before the season starts. Gotta give him big kudos for not bailing or forcing a trade like weaker minded players.

Should have had that other ring that was stolen as well.(by the Dallas mayor jinx)

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

6 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

possibly the best euro of all time....???

 

also it's worth remembering jkidd's second stint with dallas, he was not a bad shooter at all.  he was one of the nba's better shooters in terms of 3P% and 3PM, especially in the playoffs.

Well I have it between Dirk and Nikolov Tskitshivilli

[aggie08 21505]

12 hours ago, Dutchrudder said:

Dirks cool in my book. Legit shooter, possibly the best euro player of all time, good guy all around, and a transcendent 2011 playoffs that got his franchise their first ring over the hated Miami superteam. I think that's pretty cool, and more than most guys can hope for in their careers. It's also pretty awesome how loyal he has been to the Mavericks, even while living in the era of Lebron and KD stacking teams in their favor to the point we know who will win the championship before the season starts. Gotta give him big kudos for not bailing or forcing a trade like weaker minded players.

And his reward for his loyalty? Cuban immediately gutted a championship team, despite Dirk's repeated hometown discounts, in the hopes of landing some distant free agent that never came to be.

Admittedly, the Mavs' title in 2011 is my favorites championship in my lifetime. Just unmatched in terms of storylines, team v. collection of superstars (and putting a timeout on the "Not 1, not 2, not 3..." premature celebration), redemption, legacies, actually quality of play. If any rings should count as more than one title, it's this one.

[SilasCoade 2622]

8 hours ago, zork said:

Should have had that other ring that was stolen as well.(by the Dallas mayor jinx)

Refs gifted that 2006 Finals to Miami. Fucking Wade shot free throws anytime a defender breathed on him.

[Kermit 3157]

Dirk’s a national treasure. Sure, I hated him when Dallas played San Antonio but that’s rivalry shit. He’s a class act all the way and the NBA will be a worse place when he’s gone. Also, he revolutionized his position which is pretty cool. 

[BigOrange1 6442]

yeah, nothing at all to hate about dirk.  

[d2o 1602]

2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

And his reward for his loyalty? Cuban immediately gutted a championship team, despite Dirk's repeated hometown discounts, in the hopes of landing some distant free agent that never came to be.

Admittedly, the Mavs' title in 2011 is my favorites championship in my lifetime. Just unmatched in terms of storylines, team v. collection of superstars (and putting a timeout on the "Not 1, not 2, not 3..." premature celebration), redemption, legacies, actually quality of play. If any rings should count as more than one title, it's this one.

100% this.