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2018 NBA Offseason Thread -- News, Free Agency, Trades, Etc

Patrick Bateman

By Patrick Bateman
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UDontKnow
UDontKnow

Same way he got his HIV.

Vic Mackey
Vic Mackey

Good lord you can stop this act now. The last 2 seasons, you try and downlplay this superteam you decided to root for. At every turn, you break down this team like they are so flawed and vulnerable. T

Orca of Peace
Orca of Peace

that Klay barrage against OKC changed the shape of the NBA for years. If OKC wins that series, plays CLE and wins the NBA finals, KD stays IMO. Maybe Lebron wins a couple more titles and stays in Clev

d2o

d2o 1602

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Seriously. They just removed the possibility of trading love for youth and picks to do a real rebuild. He has no value as an albatross contract now.

Also should make people re-think the "LBJ was making all of the bad signings"   

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d2o

d2o 1602

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6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Love is 30 right? So he’s on the hook 30 million at age 34? Holy shit

Its an extension.  He had a yr left so he will probably get something like 35-40M (with annual raises) at 35!

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3903

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The Love thing is interesting.  After Lebron left Miami, it was Bosh, not Wade, who became their best player and lynch pin before he had the unfortunate heart condition.  Personally, I think I'd rather just rebuild, but I guess Gilbert thinks they can do so, even with Love, and doesn't want to go the tanking route.  They can't truly reset until summer of 2020 anyway.  Hill and Smith's deals are non-guaranteed and Tristan and Clarkson will be on expiring deals.  Try to extend Nance in the next year and then you have Love, Nance, Sexton, whatever they draft and cap space in 2020 to try and rebuild to playoff contender....

 

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12799

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22 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Because we didn't have Luc B playing either which is a much more equal comparison.  Now if GS was missing Curry then you might have a point.

You think Mbah a Moute (I assume that’s what you’re talking about) is an equal comparison to Iggy? Haha. Wow. 

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Chad

Chad 1728

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1 hour ago, Llogg said:

Seriously. They just removed the possibility of trading love for youth and picks to do a real rebuild. He has no value as an albatross contract now.

Anything is possible, by the time the trade deadline rolls around if Cleveland is struggling they could unload Love to a needy team with cap space desperate for an all-star caliber big. The Clippers were able to dump off Blake Griffin and his ridiculous contract.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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1 hour ago, d2o said:

Also should make people re-think the "LBJ was making all of the bad signings"   

not really. we know lebron was behind the signings of several of his hand chosen teammates. the cavs signing their only remaining "star" to an extension has nothing to do with the guys lebron recruited and brought to cleveland.

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texasstrong12

texasstrong12 4668

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Both the Rockets and Warriors had significant losses in that series but I think most people probably undervalue the importance of Iggy. Especially in the Warriors system. 

What makes that Warriors "death lineup" so good is the versatility with Green at the 5. The Warriors were a completely different team when they had to play Looney or Javale at the 5 vs Green. They are still really good with a traditional 5 type but there's a reason the Iggy lineup is the lineup everyone talks about. 

Scary thing is the Warriors now have an above average big with Cousins. That's if he's healthy. They can probably small ball you to death and run you off the court with a more traditional big. 

 

Edited by texasstrong12
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Dutchrudder

Dutchrudder 11115

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Iggy is basically the Warriors Ariza if we are looking for comparisons.

Losing CP3 is more like losing Curry, but of course Curry is a better player.   

Both teams were at full strength for the first 3 games, and the series was 2-1 GS. Iggy going down definitely played a role in it the remaining 4 games, but losing him is not equivalent to losing CP3. 

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joeycovers

joeycovers 377

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1 minute ago, Goo Punch said:

it isn't about the numbers, it's about the role/impact on the team.

What impact exactly did he have? They were 2-1 With him and 2-2 without him. He had a +/-  of 0, -22, and +26. what metric are you using that's suggesting he was such a key cog vs Houston?

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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this is very simple. golden state's best lineup includes iggy, period. the same cannot be said about about luc mbah a moute. i'm not surprised that the same guy who disingenuously referred to melo as a hof addition to the rockets is now insisting that mbah a moute is as important to the rockets as iggy has been to golden state.

Edited by Goo Punch
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d2o

d2o 1602

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Iggy is a key piece for GSW.   He is not AS important as he was back a few yrs ago.  We have no idea what impact Luc would give as he was hurt almost all season.  

Saying that a 7 gm series "wasn't even close" is stupid

 

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joeycovers

joeycovers 377

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17 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

this is very simple. golden state's best lineup includes iggy, period. the same cannot be said about about luc mbah a moute. i'm not surprised that the same guy who disingenuously referred to melo as a hof addition to the rockets is now insisting that mbah a moute is as important to the rockets as iggy has been to golden state.

Your right. It is very simple. They have almost identical reg season stats in the 2017-18 NBA season.  They both are very solid wing defenders. Iggys role is running point when needed and slasher . Moute is a 3D guy and slasher.

But lets forget all that because Iggy was Finals MVP 4 years ago so they cant possibly be similar. When Moute went down the Rox were playing with 7 guys. Then without CP3 we had 6. They needed him badly all series and was never healthy enough to provide any production. 

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joeycovers

joeycovers 377

Posted
Posted

                Iggy            Moute

MPG        25.3            25.6

FG             46%             48%

3%             28%              36%

RPG          3.8                 3.0

APG          3.3                  .9

PPG          6.0                7.5

 

No comparison though? 🙄🙄     

 

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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once again, this isn't about numbers, it's about impact. you can continue to completely ignore this fact all you want but it's really not even up for debate- iggy has been (quite clearly) more important to/impactful for the warriors than mbah a moute has been for the rockets. quoting their numbers doesn't change that. it isn't the numbers he puts up, it's the effect his role has on the team as a whole. 

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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joeycovers- when andre roberson went down, did okc simply lose 5 points and 4.7 rebounds per game, or did they lose something more? couldnt they have simply replaced him with any other random joe who averages 5 and 4, or does roberson perhaps bring something to okc that doesn't translate when you look at his box score? continuing to ignore this type of context does not further your argument.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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welp, i'm done. in the last 24 hours you've referred to melo as a hall of fame addition to the rockets, you've insisted that luc richard mbah a moute is just as important to the rockets as nba finals mvp andre iguodala is to the warriors, and now you deny that the loss of roberson impacted the oklahoma city thunder, citing +/- as evidence that they didn't miss him. have fun discussing hoops with someone else.

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joeycovers

joeycovers 377

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3 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

welp, i'm done. in the last 24 hours you've referred to melo as a hall of fame addition to the rockets, you've insisted that luc richard mbah a moute is just as important to the rockets as nba finals mvp andre iguodala is to the warriors, and now you deny that the loss of roberson impacted the oklahoma city thunder, citing +/- as evidence that they didn't miss him. have fun discussing hoops with someone else.

Melo cant be referred to as a future HOF addition but Iggy can be referred to as Finals MVP?

 

Quote wrong above. that was meant for Iggy. 

 

I get what your saying. But back to the original point. Moute affected the Rockets team just as much as Iggy did GS.

 

Did you watch the Rockets all year? Did you watch rotations etc?  Any person who did knows how important he was to Houston

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9798

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1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

this is very simple. golden state's best lineup includes iggy, period. the same cannot be said about about luc mbah a moute. i'm not surprised that the same guy who disingenuously referred to melo as a hof addition to the rockets is now insisting that mbah a moute is as important to the rockets as iggy has been to golden state.

And Rockets fans will tell you that the best Houston lineup was when Ariza went down for over a month in the second half.  Luc was inserted into the starting lineup and Houston went on a 16-0 run(9-0 before Ariza came back off the bench, didn’t start ).  They had a starting 5 of CP3, JH, Cap, PJ and Luc. It was the best combo of size, defense, shooting and slashing. He also suffered his second shoulder injury at that point and never returned to even close to 100% for the playoffs. 

He was quite possibly a bigger loss than Iggy to the Rockets. As shown above, the healthy Rockets had zero trouble with Iggy and the lineup of death.  The young athletic 7 footers were actually better for GS against Houston because of the size on JH and Paul. 

This is also a reason they let Ariza walk. They were at their best without him, but they could not count on Lucs health so he was replaced with Ennis and co. 

Houston didn’t get to start their best lineup of the season at full strength once during the playoffs. 

Edited by ChickenSandwich
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HtownHorn

HtownHorn 14468

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50 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

this is very simple. golden state's best lineup includes iggy, period. the same cannot be said about about luc mbah a moute. i'm not surprised that the same guy who disingenuously referred to melo as a hof addition to the rockets is now insisting that mbah a moute is as important to the rockets as iggy has been to golden state.

Actually most of Houston's best lineups included Mbah a Moute, especially against Golden State. Where the Gordon, Harden, Luc, Paul, and Tucker lineup had a 177.3 ORtg and was a +35.5 per 100 possessions during the regular season against the Warriors.

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9798

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5 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

This Mbah a Moute fellow sure sounds like a guy a team would be itching to re-sign!

If he could stay on the floor sure. But he cost the same as Green + Melo. 

He missed 19 games in the regular season and couldn’t make it back for the playoffs (or hit a lay up). 

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3903

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10 minutes ago, joeycovers said:

 Hes not the same player he once was.  What impact? That he is a part of cute group that has a nickname?  His +/- was +2 over 3 games he played.  What metric of impact are you using? Your eye test? 

He had a .610 TS%, .171 WS/48, 4.8 BPM, 122 ORtg, and 102 DRtg in the playoffs.  Those numbers overall are comparative to his 2nd season with the Warriors, when they won a championship and he won a Finals MVP.  There's no doubt Iggy is in decline and probably can't play at a high level over 82 games anymore, but he was excellent in the playoffs.  Way better than he had been in several years.  And better than LMaM has ever been in his career.  He was definitely missed, not simply for his role in the Hampton's five lineup but more for what the role he played otherwise and how the Warriors had to try compensate in their rotations.  We know the Warriors front office made some poor decisions in their playoff roster this year, inexplicably going very big centric.  Without Iguodala the Warriors rotations were thrown into disarray as they had to rely pour minutes on guys like Looney and Nick Young. 

The WCF was a very close series even if 4 of the games final margins weren't, just as losing Iguodala was a very impactful short-term loss for the Warriors.  I think other teams should learn from that series, it almost turned on a AI injury.  What if the injury would have been Klay?  Or Steph?  The Rockets go the Finals.  The issue is there are probably only 2 teams close enough to the Warriors right now where a major injury would turn the series (GSW mainly cruised with Steph rehabbing back).  More teams should try and get closer to them because they're certainly mortal......

 

 

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52-80

52-80 19081

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Posted
21 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

Houston blew a lead in game 7 with CP3 injured and after an unprecedented 0 for 20something or 30something (whatever it was) cold streak on 3s.  

Nothing unprecedented about James Harden's 3pt cold streak in the playoffs.

.244 against Warriors this year

.240 against Thunder last year

.310 against Warriors yera before that.

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texasstrong12

texasstrong12 4668

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15 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

You Rockets myopians are about to make me side with Charles Barkley on the analytics argument. 

The Luc Mbah Moute vs Iggy debate is why there's a large group of people that despise the analytics community. This from someone that definitely sides with analytics. 

The funny thing is the same group of people using analytics as a justification for why Luc Mbah Moute is comparable to Iggy are the ones defending Melo. When almost every metric/analytic out there proves Melo is a trash player at this point of his career. 

Which is the biggest problem with analytics. People pick and choose random analytics they like and subjectively apply it to whatever fits their narrative. I probably do this so not really criticizing others. 

Edited by texasstrong12
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Chad

Chad 1728

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https://sports.yahoo.com/nba-buzz-busy-off-season-003744987.html

The writer perceives the Melo signing to be a shit signing as well as anyone who isn't a fan of the rockets. It's ok Melo is a future hall of famer and he only costs 2.5 million. He sucked because he played with Westbrook/Paul George and because Donovan is one of the worst coaches in the league, etc etc etc. Stick to hanging your we took the Warriors to 7 games and won the most regular season games banner in an aggy like fashion.

Quote

5. Rockets: Maybe it's just me, but I'm totally unimpressed by the Rockets' offseason. Losing versatile, defensive minded forwards like Trevor Ariza and Luc Mbah A Moute in favor of a rapidly declining Carmelo Anthony figures to make Houston weaker on both ends. Plus, Mike D'Antoni did not get along well with Anthony when he was head coach of the Knicks and it's hard for me to believe the reunion will work out any better.

 

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d2o

d2o 1602

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9 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

So for cap and luxury tax purposes, Melo actually only counts for 1.5 million. They cap Vet Min deals at 1.5 to prevent teams from being discouraged from signing them vs a rookie for 700k.  

yeah the rest of the 2.5 is made up by the league

 

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9798

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4 hours ago, texasstrong12 said:

The Luc Mbah Moute vs Iggy debate is why there's a large group of people that despise the analytics community. This from someone that definitely sides with analytics. 

The funny thing is the same group of people using analytics as a justification for why Luc Mbah Moute is comparable to Iggy are the ones defending Melo. When almost every metric/analytic out there proves Melo is a trash player at this point of his career. 

Which is the biggest problem with analytics. People pick and choose random analytics they like and subjectively apply it to whatever fits their narrative. I probably do this so not really criticizing others. 

But they aren't defending Melo.  He cost 1.5 million and is at best the 4th or 5th scoring option on a team that encourages EVERYONE to shoot.  Ariz missed nearly 1/4 games during the regular season, and so did Luc for a combined $20 million.  Ariza was incredibly inconsistent on offense in the playoffs and Luc was a no show.  20 million for that?

Green - 6-8 (O)

James Ennis -6-7(D)

MCW 6-6 (D)

+ Melo (O)

for less than half the cost.  This fits well with Houston's defensive rotation of long players.  We can argue the Rockets didn't IMPROVE from last season, but IMO they did replace what Ariza and Luc do for the Rockets with 2 players instead of 4 and at less than half the cost.

Houston is also in a good spot to grab a piece at the deadline.  A 34 year old Ariza wasn't taking this team to the finals, but could be a great add at the trade deadline if bought out by lotto bound Phoenix.

Iggy is the better player than Luc, but as the teams were constructed, head to head his loss was equal to that of Luc who helped Houston to a 16-0 second half run when in the starting lineup.  A big part of why that is, is because of the surrounding talent.  The Warriors simply didn't need him last season, and the Rockets had tons of success against the Hampton's line up. 

It's preposterous to compare Iggy to CP3's injury.  Most seem to think it was a foregone conclusion the Warriors would have won 2 straight including game 7 on the road with a health Paul.  It's like the series before the injury was forgotten after the laughable Cleveland final.  They were lucky.

Edited by ChickenSandwich
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aggie08

aggie08 21424

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19 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

He had a .610 TS%, .171 WS/48, 4.8 BPM, 122 ORtg, and 102 DRtg in the playoffs.  Those numbers overall are comparative to his 2nd season with the Warriors, when they won a championship and he won a Finals MVP.  There's no doubt Iggy is in decline and probably can't play at a high level over 82 games anymore, but he was excellent in the playoffs.  Way better than he had been in several years.  And better than LMaM has ever been in his career.  He was definitely missed, not simply for his role in the Hampton's five lineup but more for what the role he played otherwise and how the Warriors had to try compensate in their rotations.  We know the Warriors front office made some poor decisions in their playoff roster this year, inexplicably going very big centric.  Without Iguodala the Warriors rotations were thrown into disarray as they had to rely pour minutes on guys like Looney and Nick Young. 

The WCF was a very close series even if 4 of the games final margins weren't, just as losing Iguodala was a very impactful short-term loss for the Warriors.  I think other teams should learn from that series, it almost turned on a AI injury.  What if the injury would have been Klay?  Or Steph?  The Rockets go the Finals.  The issue is there are probably only 2 teams close enough to the Warriors right now where a major injury would turn the series (GSW mainly cruised with Steph rehabbing back).  More teams should try and get closer to them because they're certainly mortal......

 

 

This right here.  It's not just about who you lose (though Iggy's impact on both ends of the court are far more substantial than the numbers express); it's about who you have to play instead.  In 2016, it was having to start Ezeli and play Varejao in Game 7 of the Finals because their center depth behind Bogut was trash.  In 2018, they overcompensated by having only center depth, so their lineup options went to shit w/o Iggy, often leaving 3 or 4 non-playmakers on the floor together, and making them much easier to guard. Kerr has never--and likely will never--embrace the D'Antoni thinking of playing your 7 best guys for 48 minutes in the playoffs.

LMaM was missed too, but I thought that Houston's defense was still largely excellent.  They needed help offensively, and it's hard to trust players like LMaM--even if he were healthy--to provide that in huge playoff games.  It's just a different game than the regular season, especially playing a defense as menacing as Golden State's. Houston, one of the greatest offenses ever, only broke 100 twice in 7 games largely because the Warriors are so damn good at making sure that limited offensive players (like LMaM) essentially disappear.

All that said, this new narrative that the Warriors were just toying with their food, and demolished Houston when they needed to is total horseshit.  I can promise you that falling behind by double-digits in consecutive elimination games wasn't part of the plan.  Golden State was looking forward to that series all year and wanted to absolutely humiliate Houston because of the trash talk from Capela, Gordon, and others throughout the season.  Every locker room report from team insiders said as much in the days leading up to Game 1.  They thought they were going to roll through them.  Maybe they do still win in 5 with a healthy Iggy, but they'll be the first to admit that they didn't expect Houston to have that much fight in them, nor have the ability to play 48 minutes of locked in, near mistake free defense.

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3903

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8 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Iggy is the better player than Luc, but as the teams were constructed, head to head his loss was equal to that of Luc who helped Houston to a 16-0 second half run when in the starting lineup.  A big part of why that is, is because of the surrounding talent.  The Warriors simply didn't need him last season, and the Rockets had tons of success against the Hampton's line up. 

It's preposterous to compare Iggy to CP3's injury.  Most seem to think it was a foregone conclusion the Warriors would have won 2 straight including game 7 on the road with a health Paul.  It's like the series before the injury was forgotten after the laughable Cleveland final.  They were lucky.

That's just subjective silliness.  Stop it.  

Here's a better question.... As currently constructed, are the Rockets better than last year?  Are the Warriors?

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