2018 NBA Offseason Thread -- News, Free Agency, Trades, Etc

[aggie08 21431]

1 hour ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Well. Those guys are going to also need to make their shots. playing with the best shooter of all time and a guy whos capable of scoring 37 points in a quarter makes his impact on offense much more level while comparing what his impact is on defense for the same team.

 

GS finished the season 8-9 after Steph went down. a few of their games, KD/KT and DG all sat, so say they really went 8-6. thats probably a 46 win team. DG should be really stepping up his offense more if hes that skilled and pick up some of Currys slack. not shoot like curry but score more than 2-7 with 9 points and 12 assists.

Can you imagine how ridiculous it would sound if Dennis Rodman, on top of his extensive defensive and rebounding contributions, also led the Bulls in assists and routinely ran their offense, including initiating their league-best transition game, and someone said, "Yeah, but he can't shoot 3's!"

This is essentially your argument in a nutshell.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

25 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Can you imagine how ridiculous it would sound if Dennis Rodman, on top of his extensive defensive and rebounding contributions, also led the Bulls in assists and routinely ran their offense, including initiating their league-best transition game, and someone said, "Yeah, but he can't shoot 3's!"

This is essentially your argument in a nutshell.

Yes its ridiculous. Just like you telling ldogg that its not 20 years ago and the game has changed.................then literally keep using a comp player from 20 years ago to help your case. WTF?

 

Yes DG is a one of a kind player for GS. Yes i think his #s are high because hes surrounded by 2 sharp shooters and the best offensively skilled player in the league. No i dont think DG has the same numbers or offensive impact for a different team nor do i see that teams wins spiking if DG joined them because im taking into account the talent gap between his GS teammates and his new teammates.

 

thats my argument in a nutshell

Edited August 4, 2018 by MNLonghornFUKM

[Mack Tripper 696]

Draymond talk not going away

[aggie08 21431]

27 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Yes its ridiculous. Just like you telling ldogg that its not 20 years ago and the game has changed.................then literally keep using a comp player from 20 years ago to help your case. WTF?

 

Yes DG is a one of a kind player for GS. Yes i think his #s are high because hes surrounded by 2 sharp shooters and the best offensively skilled player in the league. No i dont think DG has the same numbers or offensive impact for a different team nor do i see that teams wins spiking if DG joined them because im taking into account the talent gap between his GS teammates and his new teammates.

 

thats my argument in a nutshell

C'mon man, I know you're smarter than this. Draymond is the evolution of Rodman. Every bit as impactful on the defensive end, with vision, passing, and a high basketball IQ to boot. Sounds like a surefire Hall-of-Famer to me.

I can't help but laugh when you guys keep going back to the "he wouldn't be as good on another team" well (again, that's true for all but a handful of players) when every team in the league has been looking and drafting and praying for a small ball center half as good as Draymond to try to keep up. If you're still judging Draymond purely by numbers (which still show a great player), then you and I watch basketball very differently.

Edited August 4, 2018 by aggie08

[Underdog 28451]

Dray fuck Madonna?  Advantage=...  Dray?

[aggie08 21431]

31 minutes ago, Mack Tripper said:

Draymond talk not going away

Shit, I don't even like the dude. I wish he wasn't as vital to the Warriors as he is, so they could trade him, and I wouldn't have to listen to about 75 games per season of Draymond yelling "AND 1!", yelling in general, and conducting himself like a petulant child. But you'd have to be purposefully ignorant to deny his tremendous importance to that team, or think that he wouldn't be incredibly useful on any other team.

Edited August 4, 2018 by aggie08

[Goo Punch 4275]

1 hour ago, Llogg said:

not comparing Barnes and Draymond. Using Barnes to illustrate the impact being on a super team has on individual play.

yes you are comparing the two of them.

[Goo Punch 4275]

there are simply some people who value scoring to an absurd degree, who overestimate every scorer and underestimate every non-scorer. J'Covan Brown was a volume shooter with terrible percentages, had abysmal shot selection, an and an extremely low basketball iq, was a black hole on defense, and took way more attempts from three (28%) than he did from the FT line (90%). Hes *maybe* a top 25-30 player in UT history and yet many people act as if he was Travis May or reggie freeman. Conversely you have people who see that draymond isn't a natural shooter or scorer and they will never ever ever believe that he can still be a great player simply because he isn't a prolific scorer. 

 

as far as i can tell these are people who simply don't understand what all goes into making a great basketball player. if he scores he's great, if he doesn't he sucks. movement off the ball, basketball iq, rebounding positioning, passes to the shooting pocket, recognizing opposing sets, mastery of ones own sets on both ends, hustle, versatility- these things are lost on people who only very casually follow the game and/or have never played. we've recently seen the same thing with the people who've said, "oh yeah, trevor ariza, HUGE loss for the rockets (roll eyes)". He may not be an all star, but he had his role, he played it well, and he was a big part of their team that will be missing next year. but again, he's not an offensive savant, so his departure means nothing.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Goo Punch

[hobbes2702 12804]

3 hours ago, Llogg said:

@aggie08 Look at Harrison Barnes. 2015-16 GSW net rating +10.5. 2016-17 DAL net rating -2.1. His average VORP last two seasons with GSW ~1.4. Last two seasons with DAL VORP 0.0. He was looked at as a good get, good defender with offensive upside. Take him out of the GSW system and he's at best JAG. You put Klay on the Spurs in 2014 or 2015 and they are Western conf champs. Draymond wouldn't move the needle that much for those teams as they already had very solid team defense.

Is this real life? Barnes?

[SilasCoade 2620]

14 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Is this real life? Barnes?

Concrete thinking and an inability to abstract concepts from examples reflects poorly on you, not me.

[Goo Punch 4275]

7 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Concrete thinking and an inability to abstract concepts from examples reflects poorly on you, not me.

you are clueless yet pompous. dynamite combination. comparing barnes to draymond, as if each would be affected equally by leaving the warriors is completely regarded. being snarky and flippant to everyone who points his out only makes you an ass.

[hobbes2702 12804]

Cool. You clearly have no fucking clue what you’re talking about. 

[hobbes2702 12804]

8 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

you are clueless yet pompous. dynamite combination. comparing barnes to draymond, as if each would be affected equally by leaving the warriors is completely regarded. being snarky and flippant to everyone who points his out only makes you an ass.

What if Harrison Barnes numbers dropped because he no longer had DG running his offense? There’s an interesting topic of debate.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Shit, I don't even like the dude. I wish he wasn't as vital to the Warriors as he is, so they could trade him, and I wouldn't have to listen to about 75 games per season of Draymond yelling "AND 1!", yelling in general, and conducting himself like a petulant child. But you'd have to be purposefully ignorant to deny his tremendous importance to that team, or think that he wouldn't be incredibly useful on any other team.

Maybe a natural hatred with some reserved judgement

[kopp0e 1135]

2 hours ago, Mack Tripper said:

Draymond talk not going away

Someone made a good point, he is this generation's "poor man's Dennis Rodman", in getting under oppositions skin... In some cases, those tech foul shots arethe difference in either winning or losing on the nights the Warriors "didn't come out to play"...

[aggie08 21431]

The point was that he's much better and more complete than Rodman, has a perfect defensive skillset for the modern game, a nearly-perfect (yeah, his shooting blows) complimentary offensive game, and helped revolutionize the NBA to the point that every true center not named AD struggles to keep up.

Close though.

Edited August 4, 2018 by aggie08

[Goo Punch 4275]

8 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

The point was that he's much better and more complete than Rodman, has a perfect defensive skillset for the modern game, a nearly-perfect (yeah, his shooting blows) complimentary offensive game, and helped revolutionize the NBA to the point that every true center not named AD struggles to keep up.

Close though.

and he's damn sure more important to the warriors than klay thompson.

[Michael Knight 12891]

2 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

and he's damn sure more important to the warriors than klay thompson.

He's more important to them than Kevin Durant

[TonyTexas 10482]

He's more important to them than Kevin Durant

Now that’s just silly

[ernest_t_bass 1196]

[BradInATX 9208]

Curious as to everyone's thoughts as to why players who are average or below defensively suddenly look capable on defense when they go to GSW. For a specific example, I'd refer to you to Kevin Durant. 

Draymond's numbers would surely go down a bit if he left the Warriors, but the flipside to that is that the Warriors defensive stats (and general ability) would drop significantly across the board. Durant is an average defender who has suddenly looked good since he went to the Warriors. Curry was a turnstile who is adequate now. All of those would revert to the mean and the Warriors team would suffer quite a bit. They'd likely be a rich man's version of the Baron Davis Warriors teams who would score stupid numbers of points and also give them up, rather than the balanced two-way team they've become.

I fucking hate Draymond Green but he's a tremendous basketball player and I agree with the notion that he's the 2nd most important player on their team. Not 2nd best, but 2nd most valuable, behind Steph. If you can't see Draymond's value then you probably never played basketball outside of your neighborhood pick-up chucking threes game. That loud, childish mother fucker impacts the game on just about every single play. Hate the dude but respect his game, as anyone who knows anything should.

We'll probably never "settle" this argument because there's no way the Warriors let him walk in free agency. Klay probably, but they'll do what they need to do to keep Draymond next year. They know.

Edited August 5, 2018 by BradInATX

[kopp0e 1135]

A ranking of what expected starting rosters will look like:

Quote

Ranking Every NBA Team's Projected Starting 5 After Free Agency ...

https://bleacherreport.com/.../2789035-ranking-every-nba-teams-projected-starting-5-...

1 day ago - Breathe it in, basketball junkies —for the majority of NBA fanbases, optimism will never taste sweeter than it does right now. Free agency is effectively behind us, ...

 

[aggie08 21431]

Golden State started to turn the corner a little defensively under Mark Jackson (literally the only good thing he did as coach) when he finally convinced Steph and Klay to at least try on that end. But they didn't enter the top 10 until Draymond started getting more minutes his second year, they traded for Iggy, and Bogut played most of the season. They immediately jumped to #1 in Kerr's first season with Draymond starting and Iggy accepting his role as 6th man.

Bogut's gone and Iggy obviously can't be a defensive foundation piece game in and game out anymore. Dray's the anchor.

KD got a few All-Defense votes in OKC, but he's never been consistently solid. Having less of an offensive burden in Golden State--and having Draymond behind him--allows him to hunt shot blocks and contest more aggressively. Draymond allows everyone to focus on a defensive role that they're capable of playing, while he does the heavy lifting and moves guys to the right spots. 

[Dutchrudder 11115]

KD also has the advantage of being a 6'11 small forward going against guys that are usually 3-4 inches shorter than him.

[immortal13 4059]

20 hours ago, BradInATX said:

Durant is an average defender 

You went full retard

[Dutchrudder 11115]

Western Conference win totals from @LVSuperBook just dropped -

Warriors 62.5
Rockets 54.5
Thunder 50.5
Lakers 48.5
Jazz 48.5
Nuggets 47.5
Pelicans 45.5
Timberwolves 44.5
Spurs 43.5
Trail Blazers 41.5
Clippers 35.5
Grizzlies 34.5
Mavericks 34.5
Suns 28.5
Kings 25.5

[gsoda3 3236]

mavs are going to win more than 34.5

[BradInATX 9208]

6 hours ago, immortal13 said:

You went full retard

You must be new to watching the NBA. He was considered a defensive liability for the first few years of his career, slowly morphing into average towards the end of his tenure with OKC. He didn't get recognition for being good to very good until he went to the Warriors, which was my point.

I did perhaps overlook the possibility that he got better when he left the Thunder because Oklahoma sucks, so there's that.

[immortal13 4059]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

You must be new to watching the NBA. He was considered a defensive liability for the first few years of his career, slowly morphing into average towards the end of his tenure with OKC. He didn't get recognition for being good to very good until he went to the Warriors, which was my point.

I did perhaps overlook the possibility that he got better when he left the Thunder because Oklahoma sucks, so there's that.

You said "is", bruh

[BradInATX 9208]

9 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

You said "is", bruh

I did, that was sort of the point of my post. I'm of the belief that Durant is an average to slightly above average defender (as believed and shown during his entire tenure at OKC) who is made to look like an all-defense caliber player by the presence of Draymond and to a lesser extent, Iggy and the Warriors system. I don't think he suddenly turned into a great defender, I think his surroundings made him look that way. 

[immortal13 4059]

12 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

I did, that was sort of the point of my post. I'm of the belief that Durant is an average to slightly above average defender (as believed and shown during his entire tenure at OKC) who is made to look like an all-defense caliber player by the presence of Draymond and to a lesser extent, Iggy and the Warriors system. I don't think he suddenly turned into a great defender, I think his surroundings made him look that way. 

Or maybe, just maybe, he is a really good defensive player. 

[BradInATX 9208]

7 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Or maybe, just maybe, he is a really good defensive player. 

He wasn't at Texas and he wasn't at OKC. What changed?

[immortal13 4059]

7 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

He wasn't at Texas and he wasn't at OKC. What changed?

He got better.

Man, this isn't as difficult a concept as you are making it. 

[BradInATX 9208]

13 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

He got better.

Man, this isn't as difficult a concept as you are making it. 

I suppose you could make the argument that he, after nine full years in the NBA, made a random giant leap in defensive ability and execution in the course of a four month offseason. I think it's much more likely that you're correct in that it's a simple concept; that moving to the Warriors with Draymond and Iggy was the reason for the change, not a completely unprecedented improvement in ability in a player's 9th season in the NBA.

It happens all the time. I'm a Spurs fan and have watched bad defenders come be serviceable on the Spurs, and serviceable defenders come be very good defenders. 

But no use arguing in circles.. agree to disagree. Doesn't make KD any less of a player, he's still probably 3rd best in the league and a first ballot HOFer. My original point had nothing to do with KD anyway, I was talking about Draymond..

Edited August 6, 2018 by BradInATX

[hobbes2702 12804]

KD didn’t get massively better as a defender. He’s always been a bit underrated in that. The difference now is that with DG he can hunt for blocks instead of just being played on ball. He’s allowed to rim protect and play help defense which he never got to do in OKC.

[immortal13 4059]

16 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

I suppose you could make the argument that he, after nine full years in the NBA, made a random giant leap in defensive ability and execution in the course of a four month offseason. I think it's much more likely that you're correct in that it's a simple concept; that moving to the Warriors with Draymond and Iggy was the reason for the change, not a completely unprecedented improvement in ability in a player's 9th season in the NBA.

It happens all the time. I'm a Spurs fan and have watched bad defenders come be serviceable on the Spurs, and serviceable defenders come be very good defenders. 

But no use arguing in circles.. agree to disagree. Doesn't make KD any less of a player, he's still probably 3rd best in the league and a first ballot HOFer. My original point had nothing to do with KD anyway, I was talking about Draymond..

Who are you ranking above KD?

[BradInATX 9208]

8 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Who are you ranking above KD?

LeBron and (probably) Curry - but I'm not looking for that debate. I'd disagree if you wanted to put KD at 2, but wouldn't argue that hard about it.

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

I'm not sure how much folks watch or understand defense in the NBA.  It's a nuanced activity and I'll admit, although I try to understand the best I can, I'm no expert.  That written, KD was an atrocious defender when he came to Texas.  Rick Barnes joked about it all the time.  How KD was the worst defender he had ever coached or something along those lines.  Rick taught Kevin a lot of the defensive fundamentals but even throughout his first 4-5 years in the NBA, as Kevin was becoming perhaps it's greatest scorer, he was still an average defender, at best, probably a little below average.  He now is an above-average defender and when he tries, he's a pretty damn good on the ball defender and becoming a much better help defender (something he ironically attributes to Draymond's influence). 

The issue for Kevin is generally effort and awareness on defense.  He sometimes drifts and watches way too much of the game.  It's why he's probably a better OTB defender than help at this point, because it's easier to understand and Kevin is physically blessed with ridiculous length and above-average foot speed.  Still, Kevin doesn't do as much as he probably should consistently.  He doesn't block out well (see game 1 of the Finals), he watches too much, he's caught flat footed on closeouts too much, he doesn't slide down as quickly sometimes.  Now sometimes he does do all of these things and when he does, he turns into Durantula, the only player in the league on Lebron's level.  He also is a willing and attentive defender much more consistently than he used to be in OKC, mainly because he takes pride in becoming better and has worked on it, he doesn't have to hunt as much for his offense and can put more effort on his defense, and because the culture in GS holds him more accountable. 

KD's next vision for himself should be to work towards something that may never have been done and that's a 25-10-5-1-1 guy on .500/.400/.900.  I don't think a player has ever done such a thing although I may be wrong.  Larry Bird got close a couple of times...... That's what the new KD should try for and what he's capable of, all around ridiculousness.  For a guy nearly 7 foot, he needs to rebound better and should start there.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Patrick Bateman

[BigOrange1 6422]

46 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

LeBron and (probably) Curry - but I'm not looking for that debate. I'd disagree if you wanted to put KD at 2, but wouldn't argue that hard about it.

curry is not better than durant.

[Michael Knight 12891]

3 hours ago, BradInATX said:

LeBron and (probably) Curry - but I'm not looking for that debate. I'd disagree if you wanted to put KD at 2, but wouldn't argue that hard about it.

You forgot Manu Ginobili

[zork 629]

9 hours ago, BradInATX said:

I suppose you could make the argument that he, after nine full years in the NBA, made a random giant leap in defensive ability and execution in the course of a four month offseason. I think it's much more likely that you're correct in that it's a simple concept; that moving to the Warriors with Draymond and Iggy was the reason for the change, not a completely unprecedented improvement in ability in a player's 9th season in the NBA.

It happens all the time. I'm a Spurs fan and have watched bad defenders come be serviceable on the Spurs, and serviceable defenders come be very good defenders. 

But no use arguing in circles.. agree to disagree. Doesn't make KD any less of a player, he's still probably 3rd best in the league and a first ballot HOFer. My original point had nothing to do with KD anyway, I was talking about Draymond..

KD was also just turning 19 years old a month before his rookie NBA season(born 9/1998, drafted 6/2007, rookie 10/2007). 

How many 19/20/21/22 year old players are considered super defenders at the NBA level?  Much less those scoring as much as he was?  Saying he improved greatly his 5-6th year in the league makes sense given his age.  I'm biased though.  Love KD.

Quote

At the conclusion of the season, he was named the NBA Rookie of the Year behind averages of 20.3 points, 4.4 rebounds, and 2.4 assists per game.^[2] He joined Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James as the only teenagers in league history to average at least 20 points per game over an entire season.^[34]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Durant#Oklahoma_City_Thunder_(2008–2016)

Edited August 7, 2018 by zork

[Vic Mackey 46935]

[Goo Punch 4275]

Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Bill Walton, Grant Hill, Penny

Edited August 7, 2018 by Goo Punch

[SilasCoade 2620]

8 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

Rose, T-Mac, Livingston, Sampson, Sabonis. Choices admittedly limited by era I'm most familiar with.

[immortal13 4059]

Len Bias

[Vic Mackey 46935]

...

[d2o 1602]

10 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

Penny, TMac, Grant Hill, Len Bias, Bill Walton

[d2o 1602]

The amount of people who believe Doncic can't miss is really interesting to me.

[Vic Mackey 46935]

24 minutes ago, d2o said:

The amount of people who believe Doncic can't miss is really interesting to me.

I am skeptical about any 'can't miss player', especially foreign ones. I believe this was the same kind of talk that one dude from 2003 or 2004 had. Can't remember his name but I think the Pistons drafted him.

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

There's a distinction between can't miss and certified star. It's just a barometer of where people think his floor is. I'd honestly be shocked if Doncic wasn't at least as good as someone like Joe Ingles, Tyreke Evans, or Bojan Bogdanovic. The question is whether he'll be in the realm of an allstar level player.