2018 NBA Offseason Thread -- News, Free Agency, Trades, Etc

[immortal13 4,059]

He may end up in Bill Belichick territory

[kopp0e 1,135]

Interesting to see...

 

[kopp0e 1,135]

This chick has a pretty solid list, but in my opinion, I would place both Harden & Irvin higher at #4 & #5 , respectively...

 

[kopp0e 1,135]

Harden & RW team up once again, in off season action:

 

[dingleberryswitzer 2,724]

14 hours ago, Dutchrudder said:

That's only because the right system has been installed. Kerr built that system around his players, and it didn't happy all of a sudden, it did take time. He's basically figured out how best to use this roster, and I think a lot of bad coaches could come in and win a ring with it. At this point, if someone took over for Kerr, it would be akin to Barry Switzer taking over the Cowboys in 95. 

You're saying it took time?  Is one season considered a long time in nba?

[d2o 1,602]

10 hours ago, kopp0e said:

This chick has a pretty solid list, but in my opinion, I would place both Harden & Irvin higher at #4 & #5 , respectively...

 

I cant put Harden or Kyrie over AD cause AD is great on both ends.   Additionally I would have the Freak at least as high as PG

 

[kopp0e 1,135]

Well, I was basing my rankings on more or less title winning % (kind of)...

[d2o 1,602]

4 minutes ago, kopp0e said:

Well, I was basing my rankings on more or less title winning % (kind of)...

Meh, it takes more than a player to win a title so I'm not sure how that can work into the ranking.

[kopp0e 1,135]

8 minutes ago, d2o said:

Meh, it takes more than a player to win a title so I'm not sure how that can work into the ranking.

Your right, a standard set as natural talent is a better metric when you put it that way... 

[ChickenSandwich 9,798]

47 minutes ago, d2o said:

I cant put Harden or Kyrie over AD cause AD is great on both ends.   Additionally I would have the Freak at least as high as PG

 

AD maybe, but he hasn't even been able to put together one full great season yet, but Kyrie...over Harden?  I can't imagine many GMs who would take Kyrie over Harden

Edited August 21, 2018 by ChickenSandwich

[d2o 1,602]

8 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

AD maybe, but he hasn't even been able to put together one full great season yet, but Kyrie...over Harden?  Not a chance

28/11 while leading the league in blocks.   !st team All-NBA, 1st team All -defense 3rd in MVP voting this past season.   Does that not qualify as a great full season?

 

Actually he's pretty much had those same numbers for the last two seasons straight.    He gets nicked seemingly often so maybe that is what you mean but he has played 75 gms that last two yrs in a row.

 

Oh and I said I had  Kyrie over Harden.

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by d2o

[d2o 1,602]

6 minutes ago, d2o said:

28/11 while leading the league in blocks.   !st team All-NBA, 1st team All -defense 3rd in MVP voting this past season.   Does that not qualify as a great full season?

 

Actually he's pretty much had those same numbers for the last two seasons straight.    He gets nicked seemingly often so maybe that is what you mean but he has played 75 gms that last two yrs in a row.

 

Oh and I said I had  Kyrie over Harden.

 

Dammit!  I never said I had Kyrie over Harden.   Can't edit that post again for some reason

[UTDD 362]

On 8/21/2018 at 2:17 AM, kopp0e said:

This chick has a pretty solid list, but in my opinion, I would place both Harden & Irvin higher at #4 & #5 , respectively...

 

I think that list isn't too bad at all, although everyone will have disagreements.  I think right now going into this season I would have:

 

1. LBJ - I think he has been the best player in the NBA since at least 2009 or so, and arguably even earlier.  Clearly a Top 5 (I'd argue even higher) player all-time, clearly best player of his generation, the gap between him any anyone else in his era for an overall career is IMHO fairly large.  A GOAT level team is preventing him from more titles, that's just how it goes for him and why he won't catch Jordan.  98

2. Durant - Despite his weird social media stuff, he seems like a good guy and his talent is unreal.  I think like Shaq he is actually slightly underachieving for his natural talent because I think he arguably be like Michael Jordan dominant for scoring.  His physical tools for that skill might be the best I have ever seen.  96

3. Curry - I think he had an argument for best player in the world in 2016 (GOAT level offensive season IMHO) even over LeBron for that one season, but his playoff performances have him under Durant for me personally.  His gravity is crucial for Golden State's system, you can't be as dominant without it and the RPM and other advanced metrics clearly show that for their system.  96

4. Kawhi - HUGE if healthy of course.   You have to wonder about his mental game a little and his injury, and how he will play this season on a very good Toronto team that defensively looks really good on paper.  94   I also see numbers 4-6 on this list as very easy to argue one over another without sounding like a fool.  It's very close for all three.

5. Davis - Just stay healthy and just get this man some help, and he will shine even more.  94  

6. Harden - Maybe the best trickster in terms of drawing fouls I have seen in a long time since Ginobili.  He has a knack for getting to the line that is amazing to me and frustrating to watch if you are not a Harden fan.  Elite scorer, very close to elite passer as he truly can play both PG/SG without a hitch.  I think Durant and Curry are clearly better but in some ways I think Harden can handle being a solo act and having a huge burden to carry a team a little better than players ranker higher than him.  94

7.  Giannis - The future.  Needs a better outside shot.  I like his mental makeup, he is not as worrisome as some other big stars of this era. 93

8.  Westbrook - Many will have him higher, but I think his brain hasn't quite caught up to his talent yet in terms of maximizing his own talent (especially on his drives, he sometimes could actually slow down just right to get an and 1 like Iverson learned as he got older) and the talent around him.  Still, averaging a triple double is frankly amazing and I love his fearlessness and motor, if say Shaq had that motor I would have feared for the rest of the league and perhaps the 2002 Kings wouldn't have been jobbed by the refs because maybe it wouldn't have been needed.  93

9. Jokic - Severely underrated by many people, his skills overall are so great for a big man.  Everyone is rightfully excited about the KATs and Embiids of the world, but this guy can seriously play and is a walking triple double threat but can the team get in the playoffs and do some damage to get him more due? 92

10. Embiid - Defensively already an elite player, some of his offensive footwork and especially his turnovers need a lot of work.  I like his brashness a lot, and it's likely his own teammate will also be on this list in the near future as well.  92  

[BigOrange1 6,422]

1. Lebron

2. Durant

3. Curry

4. Harden

5. Davis

6. Kawhi

7. Westbrook

8. Giannis

9. Kyrie

10. Embiid

Notes:

• I think that Kawhi and Davis are probably better overall players than Harden, but Harden has achieved much more success than Davis for sure and he is more durable than both of them so he gets the nod in my book.
• I wouldn't want Westbrook as my team's #1 player, but i don't think it's fair to put anyone else above him.  He is unquestionably one of the 10 best overall players on the planet, and no one who is behind him for me is more accomplished than Westbrook.
• Kyrie is fascinating.  I'm not sure he's one of the 10 best players in the world, but he steps up on the biggest stage, has the best handle in the NBA and is one of the best shot makers i have ever seen.  If I need a bucket late, I'm not sure there is a player in the league I'd rather give the ball to than Kyrie.  That means something. 

[d2o 1,602]

56 minutes ago, BigOrange1 said:

1. Lebron

2. Durant

3. Curry

4. Harden

5. Davis

6. Kawhi

7. Westbrook

8. Giannis

9. Kyrie

10. Embiid

Notes:

• I think that Kawhi and Davis are probably better overall players than Harden, but Harden has achieved much more success than Davis for sure and he is more durable than both of them so he gets the nod in my book.
• I wouldn't want Westbrook as my team's #1 player, but i don't think it's fair to put anyone else above him.  He is unquestionably one of the 10 best overall players on the planet, and no one who is behind him for me is more accomplished than Westbrook.
• Kyrie is fascinating.  I'm not sure he's one of the 10 best players in the world, but he steps up on the biggest stage, has the best handle in the NBA and is one of the best shot makers i have ever seen.  If I need a bucket late, I'm not sure there is a player in the league I'd rather give the ball to than Kyrie.  That means something. 

yep, he is the best non-dunking finisher the game has ever seen IMO.    He makes ridiculous shots look effortless.

[hobbes2702 12,799]

4 hours ago, d2o said:

yep, he is the best non-dunking finisher the game has ever seen IMO.    He makes ridiculous shots look effortless.

Best handle the game has ever seen as well imo

[kopp0e 1,135]

It seems the Laker fans were upset PG didn't go home...

 

[kopp0e 1,135]

Proof for all, Kawhi went off the deep end...

 

[d2o 1,602]

10 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

Best handle the game has ever seen as well imo

correct

[Goo Punch 4,275]

LeBron

KD

AD

Kawhi

Steph

Harden

Giannis

Russ

Jokic

Embiid

 

[Goo Punch 4,275]

Boogie and Russ take the biggest hits in the rankings for what kind of teammates they are/their ability to get otherworldly stats without it affecting the outcome of the game.

[aggie08 21,424]

19 hours ago, BigOrange1 said:

• Kyrie is fascinating.  I'm not sure he's one of the 10 best players in the world, but he steps up on the biggest stage, has the best handle in the NBA and is one of the best shot makers i have ever seen.  If I need a bucket late, I'm not sure there is a player in the league I'd rather give the ball to than Kyrie.  That means something. 

I'm probably the closest it gets to a Kyrie "hater" around here--his offensive greatness doesn't elevate others; if you want to know what it means when someone says a player "dies on screens" defensively, Kyrie is example 1A; he doesn't have the leadership qualities that you get from other guys on a Top 10 list; he's got a little too much Kobe in him, and not just the desire to beat an entire defense on his own, but the showmanship to sometimes make a move or shot harder than it has to be--but I don't fault anyone for putting him in their Top 10, even if he's probably closer to 20 than 10 on mine (still think Boston should have traded him for Kawhi).  Being one of the 4-5 guys in the league who you can give the ball to and say, "Go get me a bucket," regardless of the moment, means a whole hell of lot.

[Goo Punch 4,275]

you're starting a team and you can only have one- Draymond or Kyrie. Who do you choose?

 

 very easy answer for me.

[Patrick Bateman 3,903]

That would be an interesting question..... Kyrie is 2 years younger but much more brittle with a degenerative knee.  One is an elite defender who's offense is inconsistent.  The other is an elite offensive player who's defense is usually poor (he does have his moments).  Depends on the medicals as Kyrie has missed over 60 games (+ playoffs) the last 3 seasons.  I think most GMs would prefer the scorer although Kyrie doesn't influence much outside of the court.  He's a strange dude.  Meanwhile, even though he's a dbag, most of his teammates love Draymond.... really interesting question.

[kopp0e 1,135]

1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

you're starting a team and you can only have one- Draymond or Kyrie. Who do you choose?

 

 very easy answer for me.

Kyrie...

In other news, the shot clock could get far more interesting...

 

[HookEm 2,442]

I would take Draymond all day every day. Top 3-4 defender in the NBA, but also one of the best passing bigs we have had in the last 20 years.

Much easier to find a decent PG than to replicate what Draymond brings to the table.

Who wins:
Rozier + Draymond (or)
Kyrie + Tristan Thompson

[d2o 1,602]

1 hour ago, HookEm said:

I would take Draymond all day every day. Top 3-4 defender in the NBA, but also one of the best passing bigs we have had in the last 20 years.

Much easier to find a decent PG than to replicate what Draymond brings to the table.

Who wins:
Rozier + Draymond (or)
Kyrie + Tristan Thompson

I would really hope for a better option than either to start a team honestly.

[hobbes2702 12,799]

4 hours ago, HookEm said:

I would take Draymond all day every day. Top 3-4 defender in the NBA, but also one of the best passing bigs we have had in the last 20 years.

Much easier to find a decent PG than to replicate what Draymond brings to the table.

Who wins:
Rozier + Draymond (or)
Kyrie + Tristan Thompson

As pointing out in the this thread, I love me some DG. That being said I think I go with Kyrie. DG has incredible game, is the leagues best defender, and directs an offense so incredibly well. However, Kyrie is one of very few guys in the league that can create their own shot at will and I’m of the opinion that you cannot win a title without one of those kind of guys, at least in the current NBA landscape.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,799]

I'll take DG if I had the greatest shooter of all time, a top 10 shooter of all time and a top SF of all time on my team.

 

Otherwise, KI if i knew his knees wouldn't explode

Edited August 23, 2018 by MNLonghornFUKM

[kopp0e 1,135]

Warriors are getting ready to try to run it back...

 

[HookEm 2,442]

To be clear, I think Kyrie is the better player. I just think Draymond is the more VALUABLE player due to the uniqueness of what he brings to the table.

[Vic Mackey 46,932]

[Vic Mackey 46,932]

39 minutes ago, HookEm said:

To be clear, I think Kyrie is the better player. I just think Draymond is the more VALUABLE player due to the uniqueness of what he brings to the table.

How valuable is Kyrie? Cavs didn't miss a beat without him. Neither did the Celtics. 

[hobbes2702 12,799]

9 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

How valuable is Kyrie? Cavs didn't miss a beat without him. Neither did the Celtics. 

The Cavs didn’t miss a beat without Kyrie? Did you watch the NBA the last three years?

[immortal13 4,059]

9 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

How valuable is Kyrie? Cavs didn't miss a beat without him. Neither did the Celtics. 

They don't win the 2016 title without him

[UTDD 362]

On 8/22/2018 at 1:42 PM, BigOrange1 said:

1. Lebron

2. Durant

3. Curry

4. Harden

5. Davis

6. Kawhi

7. Westbrook

8. Giannis

9. Kyrie

10. Embiid

Notes:

• I think that Kawhi and Davis are probably better overall players than Harden, but Harden has achieved much more success than Davis for sure and he is more durable than both of them so he gets the nod in my book.
• I wouldn't want Westbrook as my team's #1 player, but i don't think it's fair to put anyone else above him.  He is unquestionably one of the 10 best overall players on the planet, and no one who is behind him for me is more accomplished than Westbrook.
• Kyrie is fascinating.  I'm not sure he's one of the 10 best players in the world, but he steps up on the biggest stage, has the best handle in the NBA and is one of the best shot makers i have ever seen.  If I need a bucket late, I'm not sure there is a player in the league I'd rather give the ball to than Kyrie.  That means something. 

Kyrie is a really interesting debate internally for me.  I am heavily biased towards Duke players just as much as UT players already from my background, and I think he is just so fearless and clutch when it counts.  Maybe the best handle I have ever seen, certainly the best in the NBA right now.  His brain is a lot more like Jordan/Kobe than Durant/LeBron and that's a good thing to me even though he will never be as good as the latter two players.  My only concern in not slamming him into the top 10 quite easily are his durability and defensive concerns.    

[UTDD 362]

4 hours ago, HookEm said:

To be clear, I think Kyrie is the better player. I just think Draymond is the more VALUABLE player due to the uniqueness of what he brings to the table.

I'm right there with you there too.  Just an interesting stat - Top 50 analysis for careers weighting plus/minus called "impact plus/minus stat" which is closely correlated with certain other stats like RAPM (real adjusted plus minus), but basically an attempt to quantify player impact all-time in the NBA.  Weights peak ever, top 3 seasons, top 5 seasons, etc.  Certainly not a be all end all statistical ranking, but it's interesting to see Draymond at # 19 all-time which makes sense to me personally.

 

[52-80 19,081]

Any list with mookie blaylock can't be wrong

[UTDD 362]

7 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Any list with mookie blaylock can't be wrong

Certainly no stat in isolation is something that should ever be considered as definite as to anything except what that actual stat is specifically measuring.  Virtually any analytic can be cherry picked apart so to speak with isolated anomalies that do not make sense with one's general sense of basketball knowledge and one's own eye test if you have a good mind for the game.  PER for example is another stat commonly used by casual fans, but that stat as well shows anomalous entries with players that don't seem to fit well.  Even others like VORP (value over replacement) and BPM often show this as well.  Some stats that are not commonly shared with the public (prepared specifically for NBA teams privately) are quite advanced in the specific factors they want, but even those suffer the same flaw as all stats depend on variables that simply cannot apply well to all situations in terms of rating something that cannot be measured by that single stat.  

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,799]

How valuable is Kyrie? Cavs didn't miss a beat without him. Neither did the Celtics. 

They were a 4 seed, barely made it to 50 wins and didnt cruise to the finals.

Kyrie and Bron were elite...especially of KI could spell Bron from playing 46.5 mpg and continue the scoring load.

[Goo Punch 4,275]

Kyrie is essentially the optimal version of Melo if he were a pg. i put him in a similar class as westbrook, boogie, paul george, damon lillard, etc- impossible to deny the individual talent, and may even be clutch, but he can't lead your team to a title, and his impact on his teammates is at times dubious. 

 

which is is why i'm taking draymond green- he's only the best defender in the league, the best passing big aside from jokic, the most versatile player aside from lebron and giannis, and a winner who makes winning plays in big moments. to me the question only has one clear answer.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Goo Punch

[Swearengen 17]

id choose green simply for not being a flat earther

[kopp0e 1,135]

On 8/24/2018 at 10:37 AM, Goo Punch said:

Kyrie is essentially the optimal version of Melo if he were a pg. i put him in a similar class as westbrook, boogie, paul george, damon lillard, etc- impossible to deny the individual talent, and may even be clutch, but he can't lead your team to a title, and his impact on his teammates is at times dubious. 

 

which is is why i'm taking draymond green- he's only the best defender in the league, the best passing big aside from jokic, the most versatile player aside from lebron and giannis, and a winner who makes winning plays in big moments. to me the question only has one clear answer.

This generations Dennis Rodman...

[Swearengen 17]

8 hours ago, kopp0e said:

This generations Dennis Rodman...

Never go full retard

[kopp0e 1,135]

10 minutes ago, Swearengen said:

Never go full retard

It's a race no one should have to journey alone...

In honesty I think Dennis is a level above Dray, but that also leaves out the difference in officiating in games these days, as in the days of Rodman, there was more grinding defenses...

 

[kopp0e 1,135]

It is certainly a narrative pushed by the media at this time, the youth of today has no idea what the lacked witnessing in the 90's era of aggressive defense by "The Worm"...

Quote

Dennis Rodman's Legacy: Draymond Green Before Draymond Green ...

https://www.si.com/.../dennis-rodman-basketball-legacy-north-korea-draymond-green...

Jun 6, 2018 - Which Dennis Rodman should we remember? The unselfish, relentless Hall of Famer that was ahead of his time? Or the one popping up on ...

Here is a video displaying the common characteristics of the 2 on the court:

 

[kopp0e 1,135]

Backstory of how Dennis Rodman says he never spoke to neither Scottie Pippen nor Mike Jordan off the court...

 

[Swearengen 17]

I decided to look up the numbers instead of just preaching my opinion. so according to basketball-reference.com their career numbers are as followed:

RODMAN:

Games- 911, Seasons- 14

FG- 3, FGA- 5.8, FG% .521

2pt- 2.9, 2ptA- 5.4, eFG% .529

3pt- .1, 3ptA- .04, 3pt% .231

FT- 1.2, FTA- 2, FT% .584

ORB- 4.8, DRB- 8.4 AST- 1.8

STL- .7, BLK -.6, PTS 7.3

2x all star. 7x RBD champ. 2x all NBA. 8x all defensive. 2x def poy

GREEN:

Games- 70, Seasons- 6

FG- 3.3, FGA-7.6, FG% .438

2pt- 2.4, 2ptA- 4.8, eFG% .500

3pt- .9, 3ptA- 2.9, 3pt% .327

FT- 1.7, FTA- 2.3, FT% .707

ORB- 1.2, DRB- 5.7, AST- 4.6

STL- 1.4 BLK- 1.1, PTS- 9.3

3x all star. 1x STL champ. 2x all NBA. 4x all defensive. 1x def poy.

 

Now, without question, Dennis Rodman was one of the greatest defenders of all time. 8x all defensive speaks to that. Also, one of the greatest rebounders of all time. A true elite. 13+ rebounds a game is fucking ridiculous. And despite attempting so few shots has both a respectable  FG% and eFG%. The man is a hall of famer, a beast on the court. Fucked Madonna when that was actually worth braging about and has one of the most appropriate nicknames of all time. You will hear no argument from me about the greatness of Dennis Rodman.

 

HOWEVER, to dismiss Draymond Green as a poor mans Rodman is ridiculous and patently wrong. Green is a cog in one of the most dynamic offenses in NBA history. 4.6 AST as a PF is insane. He is a undersized defender just like the worm and is one of the best in the game. 4x all defensive team in only 6 seasons. He doesn't rebound as well as Rodman, again very few do, but with 1.4 STLs and 1.1 BLKs a game his numbers stack up more than well when compared to Rodman. And a 1x STL champ at 6'9" is Hakeem levels of good. Also, Green's numbers across the board in regards to 3pt shooting are highly superior to Rodman's.

Like I said, you get no argument from me about the greatness of Dennis Rodman. But Draymond Green is the evolution of Rodman. He's Rodman 3.0. He is a PF that facilitates his team's offense and shoots 3s at a .327 clip. He is might not rebound like the worm, but he is far superior on the offensive end of the court.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Swearengen
spelling

[Goo Punch 4,275]

3 hours ago, kopp0e said:

It's a race no one should have to journey alone...

In honesty I think Dennis is a level above Dray, but that also leaves out the difference in officiating in games these days, as in the days of Rodman, there was more grinding defenses...

 

above Dray? As a rebounder, sure. As an overall player? Not close. 

[kopp0e 1,135]

40 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

above Dray? As a rebounder, sure. As an overall player? Not close. 

Rodman was great & perfected two things: rebounds & irritating opponents... Draymond is great at two things: rebounding while irritating opponents & de facto leader, the former was the job of Jordan in the "running of the Bulls" era... Both great players, and Dray will get more credit once he retires, and folks look back on his career as a whole for his contributions...