Capitalism and Amazon - Taxes, Unions, and other Red Meat for Moneyed Businesses and People Haters

[DonkeyCigars 144]

Super curious to read a discussion of the Union election going on right now by the progressives who hate Amazon and love Unions, like @bad_teammate (I pick on you because I like you, apologize for the assumption you are a big pro-Union guy, but I thought I've seen that over the past 6 months)

Also, if I may as an AMZN shareholder, offer a jab (though not a victory lap by any means) in the side here, latest news is that the Nays are leading:

At the end of Thursday, more than two-thirds of the tallied votes were against unionizing, with no votes outnumbering yes votes 1,100 to 463.

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/08/985498425/amazon-union-election-no-votes-outnumber-yes-votes-at-end-of-1st-day-of-counting?

Edited April 9, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[Royalfan5 2348]

If you want a discussion, you got to take it up with the Surly Shop Steward first before you post the thread. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Royalfan5
dropped a word

[wildcat09 29265]

Just now, Royalfan5 said:

If you want a discussion, you got to take it with the Surly Shop Steward first before you post the thread. 

I think he's busy at the moment breaking some Pinkerton's legs.

[bad_teammate 13133]

sorry pal, I'm on my break

[RDCanecutter 26289]

Dudes voted however they wanted to vote. Whatever the outcome, my plan was to avoid using Amazon as much as possible because Bezos looks funny.

OP can still make money off me by investing in Amsterdam Acrylics, Speedball Art Supplies, or Bota box wines.

[washparkhorn 9935]

Home of the Brave

[pyrohornIII 4809]

Fuck Amazon.  

[bad_teammate 13133]

3 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

Fuck Amazon.  

This.

The union vote doesn't carry any special significance. Decades of anti-union action and messaging from both wings of the DC establishment and anti-union messages within corporate-owned media have done their job of souring the working classes against the idea of solidarity. Our mass culture hero-worships the capitalist masters and celebrates the destruction of jobs and industries.

[956 Worldwide 34450]

I keep hearing about how unions kill jobs and prosperity. I also keep watching union membership collapse and real wages stagnate or decline while income inequality skyrockets. It’s almost like they aren’t telling us whose prosperity unions damage....

[StassneyHorn 6540]

They’re paying me 15/hr to pick groceries and stare at milfs at Whole Foods. Fun part time gig, lots of available training for free to expand your tech knowledge if you choose to. 

[bad_teammate 13133]

5 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

They’re paying me 15/hr to pick groceries and stare at milfs at Whole Foods. Fun part time gig, lots of available training for free to expand your tech knowledge if you choose to. 

Just look the other way when I pocket an asparagus water, all right bud?

[Underdog 28457]

Can we get more info on Whole Foods MILFs, please. 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

14 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Can we get more info on Whole Foods MILFs, please. 

Not in Alabama you can’t. 

[StassneyHorn 6540]

Stealing at least one item from Whole Foods is a requirement, there is zero security.

Not a milf, but this girl below works here at the SW Austin store. Not even the hottest girl here on my own sliding scale, but definitely the only one who dresses like this on the internet for the world to see. Has an only fans if you feel inclined to help her. Nudes on Reddit. I always deliver.

https://www.instagram.com/agathaa_anne/?hl=en

[pyrohornIII 4809]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I keep hearing about how unions kill jobs and prosperity. I also keep watching union membership collapse and real wages stagnate or decline while income inequality skyrockets. It’s almost like they aren’t telling us whose prosperity unions damage....

But if you own stock in Amazon like the OP, you obviously don't give a fuck about it, do you?  In fact you even come here to not so subtly thump your entitled chest.   

 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

This.

The union vote doesn't carry any special significance. Decades of anti-union action and messaging from both wings of the DC establishment and anti-union messages within corporate-owned media have done their job of souring the working classes against the idea of solidarity. Our mass culture hero-worships the capitalist masters and celebrates the destruction of jobs and industries.

This is the good stuff. The Choco from the Hartz Mountains and the reason for this thread.

Edited April 9, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[DonkeyCigars 144]

19 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

But if you own stock in Amazon like the OP, you obviously don't give a fuck about it, do you?  In fact you even come here to not so subtly thump your entitled chest.   

 

AMZN stock is up on the news that the union lost. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/amazons-stock-rises-toward-7-week-high-after-workers-vote-against-forming-a-union-2021-04-09

 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[bad_teammate 13133]

lol you're gloating about getting to lick at someone else's scraps

[DonkeyCigars 144]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

lol you're gloating about getting to lick at someone else's scraps

Not gloating at all. I honestly could not care less about the results, I think AMZN as a corporation sucks and would never work there as mentioned in another thread, but I also think they are a fantastic business, especially AWS.

With this Unionizing vote, with the piss in a bottle controversy, the Twitter feuds, Bezos' physical transformation the last decade into a comic book movie villain, and the news they don't pay tax (though Bezos went on record supporting a corporate tax hike), I thought we could centralize all the amazing pro-labor content that gets peppered on this site, because it's crack to me. I'm a weak man.

But also, real lol at your angsty lol.

[Bama Chick 28596]

There’s lots of stories rumbling around about some super shady shit that Amazon pulled around this vote.

Pressuring the post office over drop boxes and outright intimidation.

Dirty, dirty stuff, y’all.

[immamac 42527]

I've taken shits more interesting than the topic of this thread. 

[Biff Tannen 45500]

1 hour ago, immamac said:

I've taken shits more interesting than the topic of this thread. 

Motion to change thread title to this.

[workswithseed 2037]

4 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Home of the Brave

Detroit?

[washparkhorn 9935]

Cleveland.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

There’s lots of stories rumbling around about some super shady shit that Amazon pulled around this vote.

Pressuring the post office over drop boxes and outright intimidation.

Dirty, dirty stuff, y’all.

I heard something about it being dirty pool because Amazon put a mailbox out front. What and why is that bad? I’ll Google it in parallel, but if someone can explain that would be great.

Edited April 9, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[bad_teammate 13133]

2 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

But also, real lol at your angsty lol.

sorry bud YOU are the angry one I am not mad Online

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

I mainly use Amazon to buy pairs of boots to lick.

[pyrohornIII 4809]

1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

There’s lots of stories rumbling around about some super shady shit that Amazon pulled around this vote.

Pressuring the post office over drop boxes and outright intimidation.

Dirty, dirty stuff, y’all.

I saw on TV yesterday how Amazon had put all this anti union propaganda all over the factory, including framed posters under glass in the restroom stalls.   

Here's the link on the article from CNN on the mailbox controversy:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/08/tech/amazon-union-mailbox/index.html

 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

1 hour ago, pyrohornIII said:

I saw on TV yesterday how Amazon had put all this anti union propaganda all over the factory, including framed posters under glass in the restroom stalls.   

Here's the link on the article from CNN on the mailbox controversy:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/08/tech/amazon-union-mailbox/index.html

 

Installing a USPS mailbox, to enfranchise and add convenience (which you don’t have to use if you choose not to), is not good and is intimidation to pro-Union Democrats. This feels kinda familiar to other news, but a bit inconsistent, right?

[DonkeyCigars 144]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

sorry bud YOU are the angry one I am not mad Online

You are the best poster on this God forsaken site. Don’t let this town change you.

[Gatorubet 30121]

Cleveland.

I went back to Ohio
But my city was gone
There was no train station
There was no downtown
South Howard had disappeared
All my favorite places
My city had been pulled down
Reduced to parking spaces
Ay, oh, way to go, Ohio

[Bullneck 18989]

6 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Not gloating at all. I honestly could not care less about the results, I think AMZN as a corporation sucks and would never work there as mentioned in another thread, but I also think they are a fantastic business, especially AWS.

With this Unionizing vote, with the piss in a bottle controversy, the Twitter feuds, Bezos' physical transformation the last decade into a comic book movie villain, and the news they don't pay tax (though Bezos went on record supporting a corporate tax hike), I thought we could centralize all the amazing pro-labor content that gets peppered on this site, because it's crack to me. I'm a weak man.

But also, real lol at your angsty lol.

^^^^ This is the chef's kiss part.  You're so cool you don't like Amazon AND you don't like unions.  You don't like Twitter feuds or Jeff Bezos.  

[Bullneck 18989]

5 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Motion to change thread title to this.

THIS THREAD TITLE HAS BEEN EDITED BY TEXAGS STAFF

[DonkeyCigars 144]

10 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

^^^^ This is the chef's kiss part.  You're so cool you don't like Amazon AND you don't like unions.  You don't like Twitter feuds or Jeff Bezos.  

That's right. I wear skinny jeans, smoke American Spirits and have a songbird tattooed on my inner forearm where it looks like it's sitting on the neck of my guitar when I play at gigs you've never even heard of, too.

Edited April 10, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[Bullneck 18989]

You're that guy Vic knows who moved to Colorado, aren't you? Justin Weiss Smith.

This you?

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Bullneck

[hobbes2702 12849]

@DonkeyCigars how old are you? The way you write and the posts you make are like the shit I posted on the old old site when I was like 12 (literally). Except I posted about naming the defense and you’re licking Amazon’s taint.

Edited April 10, 2021 by hobbes2702

[DonkeyCigars 144]

17 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

@DonkeyCigars how old are you? The way you write and the posts you make are like the shit I posted on the old old site when I was like 12 (literally). Except I posted about naming the defense and you’re licking Amazon’s taint.

I’m an old man.

You know the old riddle, “What creature walks on four legs in the morning, two legs in the afternoon, and three legs in the evening?”

I’m the 3-legged son of a gun.

And I’m really not a big Amazon apologist, I promise. I can both enjoy reading and listening to people discuss really progressive, Marxist labor theory and beliefs while also at the same time enjoy when theory gets it’s teeth kicked-in. Why not both?

Wait, you really were posting on message boards at 12 years old or are you on of those who use literally incorrectly? Because that’s pretty impressive and scary, if so.

Edited April 10, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[tantric superman 4667]

9 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

The union vote doesn't carry any special significance. Decades of anti-union action and messaging from both wings of the DC establishment and anti-union messages within corporate-owned media have done their job of souring the working classes against the idea of solidarity.

Plus the fact that if organized, the employees will pay union dues and their salaries won't go any higher.

The problem is that solidarity doesn't sell unless you are in a shop where people are or are preparing to be long time employees.  I'm not sure what the tenure for these Amazon folks are company wide but I bet it's short enough to be a big disadvantage for organizing. 

[tantric superman 4667]

9 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Our mass culture hero-worships the capitalist masters and celebrates the destruction of jobs and industries.

I don't doubt this plays a part, but what manager would want to manage in a union environment vs. a non-union environment?

Unions are an added expense.  The way to quickly increase the number of union shops is for governments to require all government contracts to go to union shops.

You can make it easier for unions to win elections, but that efforts are easy to push against since companies are private entities with a whole lot of rights.

 

 

[tantric superman 4667]

5 hours ago, pyrohornIII said:

I saw on TV yesterday how Amazon had put all this anti union propaganda all over the factory, including framed posters under glass in the restroom stalls. 

Because US labor laws allow companies to put their anti union messages on company property -- because it belongs to the company. 

I'd expect both the union and the company to pull out all the stops in winning the election.  If the company violated the law, then they will have a re-vote or the Board will grant some kind of relief. 

 

[tantric superman 4667]

Amazon - The average tenure for an Amazon employee is 9 to 12 months... Glassdoor.

When your attrition is that high, it's really hard to gain any footing, unless you have some really good "salts" and management is REALLY shitty.  I'll admit, every story I heard on the Amazon election was completely and totally one sided in favor of the union. 

[F250 28696]

2 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

@DonkeyCigars how old are you? The way you write and the posts you make are like the shit I posted on the old old site when I was like 12 (literally). Except I posted about naming the defense and you’re licking Amazon’s taint.

My guess is he is easily in his early twenties or mentally dwarfed with a fat gut and small peen. Dude has serious issues.

 

[staboner 4959]

eenie meenie miney moe i smell tahoe

Edited April 10, 2021 by staboner

[bad_teammate 13133]

7 hours ago, tantric superman said:

I don't doubt this plays a part, but what manager would want to manage in a union environment vs. a non-union environment?

Don't know and absolutely don't care.

7 hours ago, tantric superman said:

Plus the fact that if organized, the employees will pay union dues and their salaries won't go any higher.

Facts > theory
Union workers make more money. Unions keep the economic playing field more level.

Quote

The problem is that solidarity doesn't sell unless you are in a shop where people are or are preparing to be long time employees.  I'm not sure what the tenure for these Amazon folks are company wide but I bet it's short enough to be a big disadvantage for organizing. 

Not sure what your argument is here. You think Amazon's warehouse and driving employees are all just using it as a temporary springboard? Do you really believe this stuff?

It's temporary for them because it fucking sucks and pay is low. And it is that way to make sure margins look good to passive investors who want to make income off of the work of those laborers whose pay and work situations suck. As those situations improve for the workers, the value of the stock for passive investors goes down.

7 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I can both enjoy reading and listening to people discuss really progressive, Marxist labor theory and beliefs while also at the same time enjoy when theory gets it’s teeth kicked-in. Why not both?

You haven't demonstrated how that theory is getting its teeth kicked in. I would like to hear the explanation.

[956 Worldwide 34450]

FFS, labor and trade unions are not Marxist in either theory or practice.  Marx thought unions could develop into a revolutionary mass movement but griped too often that they were preoccupied with making the lives and conditions of workers better instead of upending The whole system. The Soviets created a system analogous to “company unions” that were entirely subservient to the Party and the ruling apparatchiks.

Unions are nothing more than people who have labor to sell organizing themselves to more effectively negotiate a better deal  for their product (labor). GTFO out of here with this whole idea that trying to get maximum value for what you have to sell is some sort of radical Communist idea. 

[bad_teammate 13133]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

FFS, labor and trade unions are not Marxist in either theory or practice.

Daughter won't eat her peas? That's Marxism.
Field hand wants a raise? Right there you got Marxism.
Son a little too interested watching as mama mends a dress? Well, pal, that's a Marxism before god and everyone.

I'm not entirely sure what Donkey means by Marxist theory being kicked in its teeth, and I don't think he knows what he means, either. I think it's a fancy-feelin' way of saying "lol libs got owned" as we watch things happen which are discussed and explained in Marxist theory.

- If I have capital, I can use it to pay someone to do work that will produce more capital and profit.
- The less I can pay that worker without hurting the price too much, the more profit I have.
- This inequality creates tension.
- Tension eventually manifests as overthrow of pre-existing order and/or full-on revolution.

We're inside bullet points #1-3. I guess Donkey's presumption is that #4 will never happen? (Again, I don't think he has an organized idea about any of this. I think it's just lib-owning.)

Quote

Marx thought unions could develop into a revolutionary mass movement but griped too often that they were preoccupied with making the lives and conditions of workers better instead of upending The whole system.

Yes, but I would put it more like he disliked them when they were apolitical. Unions address symptoms more than causes when they are apolitical.

[956 Worldwide 34450]

@bad_teammate true, but an apolitical trade union with an honest seat at the bargaining table offers a potential way out of that tension. And that’s what overly zealous representatives of capital forget, that bursts of truly destructive energy are more likely to come from a completely beaten down labor class— not a healthy one that is playing an active role in its own prosperity. 

[bad_teammate 13133]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

@bad_teammate true, but an apolitical trade union with an honest seat at the bargaining table offers a potential way out of that tension. And that’s what overly zealous representatives of capital forget, that bursts of truly destructive energy are more likely to come from a completely beaten down labor class— not a healthy one that is playing an active role in its own prosperity. 

Ideally, yeah. Also, union organizing is something actually within the realm of an individual's power and control. 

Unions matter. This is why capital has worked so hard to destroy them.

[TwiceHorn 31299]

I mean, unions did kind of fuck themselves by becoming mobbed up, and, in Detroit (which I'm sure was a microcosm of elsewhere), alternately too cozy with management and too intransigent in bargaining.

There was a documentary about Detroit not too long ago where American Axle was trying to keep a plant open in the Detroit area and negotiating with the union over how much of production to move to Mexico.  This was at a time when most production had been moved overseas, so the threat was not empty.

The management reps seemed like they were actively trying to work with and help the union/members and the union reps, who seemed dumb, were just "Nope. Nope. Nope."  Suffice it to say that plant became Mexican Axle.

Collective bargaining by labor should be a positive thing.  But in practice, so much collateral shit gets brought into it.

Management shoulders a lot of blame, too.

But in this day and age, they should be more cooperative.  Not cozy, but working together like European labor and management mostly do.

Tl;dr unions kind of need to reinvent themselves.

Edited April 10, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[pyrohornIII 4809]

41 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Daughter won't eat her peas? That's Marxism.
Field hand wants a raise? Right there you got Marxism.
Son a little too interested watching as mama mends a dress? Well, pal, that's a Marxism before god and everyone.

I'm not entirely sure what Donkey means by Marxist theory being kicked in its teeth, and I don't think he knows what he means, either. I think it's a fancy-feelin' way of saying "lol libs got owned" as we watch things happen which are discussed and explained in Marxist theory.

- If I have capital, I can use it to pay someone to do work that will produce more capital and profit.
- The less I can pay that worker without hurting the price too much, the more profit I have.
- This inequality creates tension.
- Tension eventually manifests as overthrow of pre-existing order and/or full-on revolution.

We're inside bullet points #1-3. I guess Donkey's presumption is that #4 will never happen? (Again, I don't think he has an organized idea about any of this. I think it's just lib-owning.)

Yes, but I would put it more like he disliked them when they were apolitical. Unions address symptoms more than causes when they are apolitical.

The less that worker takes home, the less they have to spend on products/services of both those who employ them and other goods/services providers.  While it increases profits for the owner in the short term, it decreases them longer term.   

But a good conservative is only worried about profits in the short term, so it's ok.