Capitalism and Amazon - Taxes, Unions, and other Red Meat for Moneyed Businesses and People Haters

[bad_teammate 13132]

38 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I mean, unions did kind of fuck themselves by becoming mobbed up,

Look at what the workers are wearing! They're asking for it!

Quote

There was a documentary about Detroit not too long ago where American Axle was trying to keep a plant open in the Detroit area and negotiating with the union over how much of production to move to Mexico.  This was at a time when most production had been moved overseas, so the threat was not empty.

The management reps seemed like they were actively trying to work with and help the union/members and the union reps, who seemed dumb, were just "Nope. Nope. Nope."  Suffice it to say that plant became Mexican Axle.

You picked the wrong villain in this story.

2 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

But a good conservative capitalist is only worried about profits in the short term, so it's ok.  

Don't absolve liberals. They are exactly the same in this regard.

They cater to and crow about the stock market just like conservatives. They adore and worship their billionaire friends just like conservatives.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

Just woke up and catching up on the thread, THIS is the b_t I’m here for.

I’ll respond in a bit, but your hypothesis is not completely wrong in that I’m not very informed and educated in Marxist theory and beliefs, though I’d like to be (if for no reason than to be able to argue against it better in my communities) and so I appreciate your inputs, and I am guilty of employing some loaded language to bait you into what you’ve been doing the last page which is awesome and was necessary to break through your sardonic humor stiff arm.

edit to add that language was non-Union labor 😂 Get it? Employed. sorry, just my sophomoric teenage and early 20’s humor.

Edited April 10, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[TwiceHorn 31283]

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

this whole idea that trying to get maximum value for what you have to sell is some sort of radical Communist idea. 

Shit, that's what management is already trying to do, ruthlessly and relentlessly.

I guess that's that "corporate communism" MTG was talking about.  Maybe she's some kind of genius!

[TwiceHorn 31283]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Look at what the workers are wearing! They're asking for it!

You picked the wrong villain in this story.

Don't absolve liberals. They are exactly the same in this regard.

They cater to and crow about the stock market just like conservatives. They adore and worship their billionaire friends just like conservatives.

Well, going by the experience of Germany, labor and management cooperated to prevent the massive offshoring of jobs when the curtain fell and the writing was on the wall.  American labor doesn't seem to be capable of such conciliation.

I said management bears a lot of blame, too, but it's a two-way street.

Labor gave itself a black eye by permitting itself to get mobbed up.  

There's not a doubt in my mind that in Detroit, American labor fucked up bad by not acknowledging the pressures facing US automakers from foreign competition and from offshoring American jobs.  They insisted on the same sweetheart deals that Detroit's bloated margins in postwar decades would sustain and didn't give an inch when the writing was on the wall.  So they kept their high wages and benefits for unskilled labor until all the jobs went away.  Brilliant!

Now, some of that is probably oversold by political interests, but the average non-union worker continues to have that perception of labor:  mobbed-up, likely to get your job eliminated, using your dues to take political positions with which the laborer may not agree, etc. etc.

Edited April 10, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[956 Worldwide 34444]

For sure labor played their role, but there is so much to spread around with blame.  The main one being that Detroit designed and built absolute shit for decades, and while some of that was on the line workers, a lot more was on the the bean counters and executives.  What’s amazing is that anyone bought a single US made crapcan aside from full-size pickups at all from the late 1970s on.

Japanese execs at Toyota and Honda said “how can I make this car as high quality as possible for an affordable price.”  Detroit said “where can I cut corners as much as possible and still get a rube to pay for it.” Two totally different philosophies and they drank our milkshake.  Should have been obvious from the moment they started importing the Honda motorcycle that it would happen eventually. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

For sure labor played their role, but there is so much to spread around with blame.  The main one being that Detroit designed and built absolute shit for decades, and while some of that was on the line workers, a lot more was on the the bean counters and executives.  What’s amazing is that anyone bought a single US made crapcan aside from full-size pickups at all from the late 1970s on.

Japanese execs at Toyota and Honda said “how can I make this car as high quality as possible for an affordable price.”  Detroit said “where can I cut corners as much as possible and still get a rube to pay for it.” Two totally different philosophies and they drank our milkshake.  Should have been obvious from the moment they started importing the Honda motorcycle that it would happen eventually. 

No doubt US automakers screwed the pooch on multiple levels.

Really effective labor might actually have helped them screw the pooch less often.

[bad_teammate 13132]

2 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

... I am guilty of employing some loaded language to bait you into what you’ve been doing the last page which is awesome and was necessary to break through your sardonic humor stiff arm.

An easier way of getting genuine responses is to ask genuine questions and offer genuine ideas.

Quote

 I’m not very informed and educated in Marxist theory and beliefs, though I’d like to be (if for no reason than to be able to argue against it better in my communities

So you don't even know what it is, but you know you want to argue against it? 

Logic

Edited April 10, 2021 by bad_teammate

[JimmyJames 12271]

6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

No doubt US automakers screwed the pooch on multiple levels.

Really effective labor might actually have helped them screw the pooch less often.

US labor laws don’t and have never given unions the power to have effected that kind of change. US laws regulate a negotiated process, but once the process fails, which it will if capital decides it wants to outlive the temporary pain, capital wins. 
 

It’s why a guy with a billion dollar bankroll can win at blackjack or craps, whereas a guy with 5k in bankroll will inevitably lose. 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

5 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

An easier way of getting genuine responses is to ask genuine questions and offer genuine ideas.

So you don't even know what it is, but you know you want to argue against it? 

Logic

When you put it that way, it’s funny, and I’ll take the L.

[JimmyJames 12271]

It also doesn’t help that companies have employment defense law firms on retainer with 1000s of highly intelligent lawyers who specialize complete only on employment and labor law who have entire divisions of 100s of lawyers dedicated to prevent unions from forming anywhere. I’m sure the Amazon defense was Herculean. It worked. They are all typically very good lawyers who are very effective at this one specialty. They also aren’t usually total assholes although of course some are, which is relatively rare in the legal profession. So nobody really pays attention to this.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

51 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

US labor laws don’t and have never given unions the power to have effected that kind of change. US laws regulate a negotiated process, but once the process fails, which it will if capital decides it wants to outlive the temporary pain, capital wins. 
 

It’s why a guy with a billion dollar bankroll can win at blackjack or craps, whereas a guy with 5k in bankroll will inevitably lose. 

What I meant is that since the UAW went down with the US industry in the 80s, the UAW has become much more proactive in QC and process-improvement initiatives at the Big 3, training their own people and providing incentives for training that make their members more employable in and out of the auto industry.  Labor has a lot to offer a manufacturing business and can bargain on things other than wages, hours and benefits.

[JimmyJames 12271]

52 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

What I meant is that since the UAW went down with the US industry in the 80s, the UAW has become much more proactive in QC and process-improvement initiatives at the Big 3, training their own people and providing incentives for training that make their members more employable in and out of the auto industry.  Labor has a lot to offer a manufacturing business and can bargain on things other than wages, hours and benefits.

Maybe so. But at the end of the day, what exactly has that got them? 

[SKJ 1305]

On 4/9/2021 at 3:39 PM, pyrohornIII said:

But if you own stock in Amazon like the OP, you obviously don't give a fuck about it, do you?  In fact you even come here to not so subtly thump your entitled chest.   

 

He owns 4 shares though

[DonkeyCigars 144]

Is it just me, or did Bezos's final letter to shareholders sound like a love letter to bad_teammate?

Bezos discussed the recent union vote in Bessemer, AL, which Amazon defeated but that nonetheless drew national attention to employees' frustrations with working conditions. Bezos admitted, "We need a better vision for how we create value for employees—a vision for their success." 

He left us with this wisdom, "The world wants you to be typical–in a thousand ways, it pulls at you. Don't let it happen."

You can read letter here: https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/2020-letter-to-shareholders?utm_source=morning_brew

 

[elfenix 34172]

On 4/10/2021 at 11:17 AM, TwiceHorn said:

Well, going by the experience of Germany, labor and management cooperated to prevent the massive offshoring of jobs when the curtain fell and the writing was on the wall.  American labor doesn't seem to be capable of such conciliation.

germany also requires representation of labor on corporate boards for companies over a certain size, and not just some token vote either.  i doubt that's making it into delaware law any time soon.

[956 Worldwide 34444]

This bullshit right here from that letter is a prime example of the comedian bit “you’re supposed to take care of your kids!” This dude sent out a letter to shareholders proudly touting the fact that Amazon lets its employees go to the potty AND have a lunch break. Holy shit! And they can talk to their bosses, too! 
 

Quote

Employees are able to take informal breaks throughout their shifts to stretch, get water, use the rest room, or talk to a manager, all without impacting their performance. These informal work breaks are in addition to the 30-minute lunch and 30-minute break built into their normal schedule.

 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

On 4/9/2021 at 3:39 PM, pyrohornIII said:

But if you own stock in Amazon like the OP, you obviously don't give a fuck about it, do you?  In fact you even come here to not so subtly thump your entitled chest.   

 

@here crosspost from stonks

Rumor mills are saying Amazon (AMZN) will announce a stock split today after hours when they report earnings. Load up now!

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

On 4/29/2021 at 2:33 PM, Hank Scorpio said:

 

I hope it works out for everyone!

[Beau Vine 54004]

On 4/9/2021 at 10:02 PM, Gatorubet said:

I went back to Ohio
But my city was gone
There was no train station
There was no downtown
South Howard had disappeared
All my favorite places
My city had been pulled down
Reduced to parking spaces
Ay, oh, way to go, Ohio

She said she needed a break
A little time to think
But then she went to Cleveland
With some guy named Leland
That she met at the bank.

There's nothing wrong with Ohio
Except the snow and the rain.
I really like Drew Carey
And I'd love to see
The Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame.

So when your done
Doing whatever
And when you're through
Doing whoever
You know Denton county
Will be right here waiting for you.

[Beau Vine 54004]

Man, I almost hate to say this, but I have a lot of former students who work at Amazon, and I have literally never heard anything bad from them, unless you consider "they expect you to work really hard" to be bad.  

And by "former students" I mean that a bunch of them were in my class and decided to drop out of college because they were doing so well at Amazon; none of them were Einsteins, so I don't think this will cost us a cure for cancer.  

Shit, one of my daughter's best friends growing up failed out of UTSA because he couldn't make himself go to class.  He has worked at Amazon for the last three years, and now they're paying his tuition to go back to school.  

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

Sounds like you should go work for Amazon instead of making students drop out of school. 

[Caponata 151]

The man is getting trashed for going on Tucker Carlson. Imo it's a good thing to have left-leaning pro-union people on Fox, maybe can change some their viewers minds. 

[safe sex 11684]

Did you read the tweet thread? He addresses your thought 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

Heh heh. Decided to drop this as here in case anyone hasn't seen it.