NCAA Statement on Transgender Participation

[crash_davis 23113]

5 minutes ago, troph said:

there's a lot of bullshit in this thread.  there's a fair amount of reasoned thought too.  I was planning to stay out of it because this is a dog whistle issue for the haters and my comments will be parsed, taken out of context and the most extreme examples will be used against me.

But I'll play.  If a fair discussion can be had, I'll provide an anecdote and then some additional commentary.

I play tennis. Men at my USTA rating smoke me every time - every time. My coach almost laughs when I say something like I could keep up with him. I win and lose against other women. I work harder than most and pay more to learn than most, I'm improving and moving up. When I move up a level, I lose most matches. Once I figure it out, adjust, learn the new skills and strategies, I start to compete.  18 months after moving up, I starting winning more.  Then I move up again.  I'm at my ceiling almost and will be an above average club tennis player.  Mostly because I obsess over it and I work my ass off.  I still face women - stay at home moms - that hit harder than I do. Some have more mental toughness than I do.  Many don't.  What's the point here? Almost all non-professional, non-world class athletics are about competing, playing, learning physical skills, learning life skills, metaphor for life (RIP Augie), and having fun.  you can't take that away from people, and that's exactly what a lot of you want whether you admit it or not.

second, politics. you can't say on the one hand a trans kid can't transition and has to wait until they are older, then say oh sorry, you didn't transition early enough, you can't play.  that's infuriating bullshit.  complete fucking bullshit.  fuck every last politician doing this.  this is the webster definition of fucked up discrimination, othering, systematic discrimination, exclusion, and attempt to erase and eliminate. hell is waiting for all in power that take this position.

from there, I think trans folks can compete in their gendered class but I think the organizations in charge are probably not stringent enough on who should be able to compete. I think it's even more of an issue in the individual sports that are purely physical and less mental/strategic.  singles tennis has so much more than strength (I've been smoked by a team with two ladies over 65 years old more than I care to count (doubles)), but the core Olympic sports like running, jumping, throwing, swimming, cycling, not so much.  It's hard not to see that.  not sure what to do about it.  I don't think it's an outright ban, I think it's something else. But again, this is totally fucked up unfair when coupled with the red meat politics of banning early transition.

finally, it sucks but no trans athlete can ever win for any reason other than they are trans.  I play on losing tennis teams so I can avoid this issue. despite the fact that I'm a middle of the road competitor - winning and losing in my competitive bracket. my worst nightmare is being on a winning team. 

in the end, most of this is about letting kids ... and middle aged adults have fun.  if you want to dog whistle I can't do anything about that.  but if you want to look at this issue for what it is, we are talking a very small percentage of cases that might need to be dealt with, and I don't have the answer but can support a closer look at it.

there's a reason most kids athletic sports have age brackets. you don't want older kids competing against younger kids. so a 15 year old kid competes against 11-12 year olds and kicks their asses. what's the fucking accomplishment in that? nothing against the 15 year old kid, but that was never a competition. it's perverse and denies the younger kids the respect and reward that they spent hours practicing.

this is no fucking different. for this woman to look herself in the mirror and act like she accomplished something is a joke. 

 

[troph 24798]

Just now, crash_davis said:

there's a reason most kids athletic sports have age brackets. you don't want older kids competing against younger kids. so a 15 year old kid competes against 11-12 year olds and kicks their asses. what's the fucking accomplishment in that? nothing against the 15 year old kid, but that was never a competition. it's perverse and denies the younger kids the respect and reward that they spent hours practicing.

this is no fucking different. for this woman to look herself in the mirror and act like she accomplished something is a joke. 

 

objection, non-responsive.

this is what I'm talking about. don't quote me when you aren't talking with me. don't quote me when you are talking at me.  take your dog whistle and shove it up your ass.

[52-80 19157]

4 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

I think this is really the solution, redefining or defining with greater specificity the women's division and everything else is the "open" division. But what group is going to take on defining what it is to be "born a woman".

What's the motivation for existing divisions at all - whether Age based, weight based, 'gender' based, geography based, etc?

To protect a specific class (needing the specificity for womens division)? 

To equalize potential?  opportunity?  level of competition?

If it's anything of the latter, we should have division based on athletic markers - testosterone levels, hematocrit levels, muscle density, VO2 max, etc

As far as anyone knows, that there exists Mens vs Women in 99% of competition is because it creates a 'natural' (i.e. non arbitrary) class (literally half of the planet), without any ulterior, controversial motive.  And 99% of the public is okay with that.  Implicit in that is it was defined by the most obvious and natural distinction: penis vs vagina.  Nobody cared how feminine or masculine you acted; or what clothes you liked to wear; or how loose or tight your vagina is.  Nobody is suppressing your want to gendercross or genderfluidity.  It's simply if you have P, you compete with the Ps. 

 

 

[Brisketexan 105139]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

you aren't saying this. but the start of the solution is with the politics of transition. Fix that and most of these issues will go away. Right now it's 50/50 on which is easier - transitioning earlier or later. for me it was 0/100 I had to be an established adult then destroy my life to do it.  that needs to be 90/10 in favor of early transition.  maybe when society isn't fucked up about transition we can say sorry, you transitioned too late.  But until we fix the root cause, this talk about athletics comes across as nothing but more discrimination. 

Fair point.

But then we have the separate discussion about transition, and when it's appropriate.  And setting aside how ridiculously politicized it's become, you and I both know that's a touchy and challenging issue all on its own, with no easy, simple, or direct answer.

Being trans is hard.  Society figuring out how to accept, accommodate, and appropriately treat trans people is hard.  There are very few easy answers.

[Samson's Wig 3192]

Just now, troph said:

I'm sorry, but don't you get it? this isn't about baseball, this is about life. don't you fucking get it? /Augism.

more seriously, sports is everything to a lot of people. I'm an aging 46 year old with a bum shoulder, tendonitis in my elbow, I have lower back pain and am resigned to the fact that tennis will probably lead me to knee replacements and worn out elbows when I'm older. and you know what?  my pursuit of happiness demands I keep playing. Everyone has a right to play.  EVERYONE.  There is a solution here, an easy one and for most trans athletes the answer is LET THEM FUCKING TRANSITION AS KIDS EARLY AND COMPETE. 

I'm right there with you on every point except that anyone has a "right" to play sports.  Perhaps this is an issue of semantics, but that term gets thrown around much too loosely.  At this point the more common use of the word has won the day, but the meaning of a legal right still means something within the context of a discussion like this one.  It may be fair that everyone should be able to play sports, but there is no inherent right.

And I'm also an aging person who enjoys playing tennis, basketball, and hockey.  I also acknowledge that people like you and me are privileged to be able to do so.  If we're going to talk about a right to play sports, poor folks have a much bigger beef than the trans community.  But we're not talking about the right to play sports.  We're talking about the right to win awards, break records, get famous, and get endorsement deals.  That's the false premise.  If this was just about being able to play tennis at the muckity-muck club with fellow well-to-do suburban dwellers there wouldn't be much to discuss.

 

[troph 24798]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Fair point.

But then we have the separate discussion about transition, and when it's appropriate.  And setting aside how ridiculously politicized it's become, you and I both know that's a touchy and challenging issue all on its own, with no easy, simple, or direct answer.

Being trans is hard.  Society figuring out how to accept, accommodate, and appropriately treat trans people is hard.  There are very few easy answers.

with all due respect it's not a separate discussion. the root cause of the complaints about unfair competition is discrimination by the very people complaining.  until that is seen for what it is, this is not a problem with a solution except to say fuck the trans people.  we shouldn't say that to ANYONE. not girls, not women, not cisgender women, not trans women, not trans kids, not black men and black boys, not mexicans, ukrainians (I mean fuck the russians), disabled, people, etc.  the root cause is discrimination, not at the point of who gets to compete but the power and agency of the individual and the parents to do what's best for them.  that's the beginning and the end and why these conversations are infuriating. it's two faced bullshit. you can't transition, well, too late now you can't compete. 

and it's a very easy answer brisket, don't do this. families should be the decision makers about the health and wellbeing of their kids. science should guide them, doctors and mental health professionals should guide them. you, politicians, and anyone who has not one single stake in that family's well being should be 100% excluded from the decision.  it's pretty god damned simple actually.

Edited March 18, 2022 by troph

[clapclapclap 9000]

 

[troph 24798]

12 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

I'm right there with you on every point except that anyone has a "right" to play sports.  Perhaps this is an issue of semantics, but that term gets thrown around much too loosely.  At this point the more common use of the word has won the day, but the meaning of a legal right still means something within the context of a discussion like this one.  It may be fair that everyone should be able to play sports, but there is no inherent right.

And I'm also an aging person who enjoys playing tennis, basketball, and hockey.  I also acknowledge that people like you and me are privileged to be able to do so.  If we're going to talk about a right to play sports, poor folks have a much bigger beef than the trans community.  But we're not talking about the right to play sports.  We're talking about the right to win awards, break records, get famous, and get endorsement deals.  That's the false premise.  If this was just about being able to play tennis at the muckity-muck club with fellow well-to-do suburban dwellers there wouldn't be much to discuss.

 

If it's not a right, it's about as close to it as you can get in a free society. it's impact on mental health, self-esteem, personal empowerment, etc. etc. suggests it's pretty close to sacrosanct - and I'm not talking about ultra competitive, I'm talking little league and rec leagues.

As for the trans versus poor community.  Last I checked, the average income of a trans adult was under $20,000.  you're talking intersectionality now. make it better for poor people you make it better for trans people, unless you single them out as I've said - no help for you, you're too young. oops, now you're too old. sorry.

as for the distinction between well to do middle agers and breaking records, my original comment I suggested a solution was needed. I also think we should separate out all competition (i.e early youth sports, rec league dumbassery, etc) from the ultra competitive (NCAA high level, high school high level, olympics, etc.). if we make that separation then we are talking about a small percentage and that helps everyone.  I think the first solution is fix the problem for the next generation - not with a ban - but with a green light for families to take care of their trans kids.  and for right now, the sports organizations should be more stringent, not an out right ban but the rules as stated aren't working.

Edited March 18, 2022 by troph

[Brisketexan 105139]

And, I am one predictable SOB.  If I'm thinking something, the fine folks at The Economist likely already thought of it, and thought of it better than I did: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/03/19/sports-should-have-two-categories-open-and-female?utm_medium=social-media.content.np&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=editorial-social&utm_content=discovery.content&fbclid=IwAR35dl3YpyY63d7Afd6MWGjdMNj8_JglrZIcYQegG6lWMyCtgkjAZucI6P4

Quote

Trans women in sport
Sports should have two categories: “open” and “female”

Biology doesn’t always matter. But sometimes it matters a great deal

 

Lia thomas, a student at the University of Pennsylvania, is an excellent swimmer. She often beats her rivals by tens of seconds, breaking records. Her success is based on three things. One is natural talent. Another is relentless training. And the third is biology.

For although she identifies as a woman, Ms Thomas was born male. Since humans cannot change their sex (unlike their self-identified gender), she remains that way. 

 

[troph 24798]

@Brisketexan it's way more complicated than what the economist says. some trans women respond to hormones in ways that put them clearly in the typical female range on physical attributes.  but for those in that class, it could take 1 year or it could take 5 years. there are at least 4 ways I'm aware of to take estrogen. how a body responds to a similar dose can be different based on how they take the treatment.  even some, despite trying the highest doses and all treatment methods simply can't feminize enough for their liking and in this case to compete.  I honestly suspect that's what's going on with a lot of these trans women who compete for medals. they have the right hormone levels but the hormones themselves did jack squat. I have friends like this. it's brutal for them. I won the lottery that way I guess, I lift weights and can't have manly muscles if I tried.  I've lost friends because hormones worked for me and not for them. sucks but biology is intricate and nuanced, not black and white like the Economist is making it out to be.

The Economist is a disaster on trans issues, haven't read one editorial that was positive (may have missed one). their statement is gross as a blanket statement, even if true for Lia Thomas. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by troph

[Jive Turkey 12598]

10 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Almost all non-professional, non-world class athletics are about competing, playing, learning physical skills, learning life skills, metaphor for life (RIP Augie), and having fun.  you can't take that away from people, and that's exactly what a lot of you want whether you admit it or not.

talk about non-responsive to the issue at hand.  the issue is whether Lia Thomas should be allowed to compete in the NCAA swimming national championships.  we're not talking about a rec league or the tennis league at the country club, and nobody here seems to be advocating denying transgender persons the ability to compete there.  what we're talking about here are world class, Olympic caliber athletes, where the stakes are a helluva lot higher.  the women who finished 2, 3, and 4 behind Lia all are Olympians.  UT's own Erica Sullivan won a silver medal at the Tokyo games.  yet they got dusted by a formerly average male swimmer who was swimming as a man a few years ago.  and yeah, Lia plans on trying out for the women's Olympic team in 2024.  so if any of these women are denied a spot on the Olympic team, that's endorsement and sponsorship money.  that's more consequential than getting second place at the club.

[troph 24798]

9 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

talk about non-responsive to the issue at hand.  the issue is whether Lia Thomas should be allowed to compete in the NCAA swimming national championships.  we're not talking about a rec league or the tennis league at the country club, and nobody here seems to be advocating denying transgender persons the ability to compete there.  what we're talking about here are world class, Olympic caliber athletes, where the stakes are a helluva lot higher.  the women who finished 2, 3, and 4 behind Lia all are Olympians.  UT's own Erica Sullivan won a silver medal at the Tokyo games.  yet they got dusted by a formerly average male swimmer who was swimming as a man a few years ago.  and yeah, Lia plans on trying out for the women's Olympic team in 2024.  so if any of these women are denied a spot on the Olympic team, that's endorsement and sponsorship money.  that's more consequential than getting second place at the club.

and you parsed one bolded phrase out of my original post which was not in response to anyone. 

Here's all my bolded comments from that post:

Quote

Almost all non-professional, non-world class athletics are about competing, playing, learning physical skills, learning life skills, metaphor for life (RIP Augie), and having fun.  you can't take that away from people, and that's exactly what a lot of you want whether you admit it or not.

 you can't say on the one hand a trans kid can't transition and has to wait until they are older, then say oh sorry, you didn't transition early enough, you can't play. 

 I think the organizations in charge are probably not stringent enough on who should be able to compete.

it sucks but no trans athlete can ever win for any reason other than they are trans.   my worst nightmare is being on a winning team. 

 I don't have the answer but can support a closer look at it.

the answer is no, she should not. I've not said that outright but I damn sure made it clear changes are needed, including at the governing organizations on the rules to compete.

I guarantee you I won't get similar respect and answers to the questions I raise.  you want to really and genuinely solve this issue?  go to the root cause. it's not Lia Thomas. It's discrimination against kids and families. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by troph

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Aren't most all top athletes born with a biological advantage?

[crash_davis 23113]

31 minutes ago, troph said:

objection, non-responsive.

this is what I'm talking about. don't quote me when you aren't talking with me. don't quote me when you are talking at me.  take your dog whistle and shove it up your ass.

the whole whistle or just the tip? 

[troph 24798]

@Cheeseweasel once again your avatar man.  how that guy made it? facepalm for sure!

[Brisketexan 105139]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

@Brisketexan it's way more complicated than what the economist says. some trans women respond to hormones in ways that put them clearly in the typical female range on physical attributes.  but for those in that class, it could take 1 year or it could take 5 years. there are at least 4 ways I'm aware of to take estrogen. how a body responds to a similar dose can be different based on how they take the treatment.  even some, despite trying the highest doses and all treatment methods simply can't feminize enough for their liking and in this case to compete.  I honestly suspect that's what's going on with a lot of these trans women who compete for medals. they have the right hormone levels but the hormones themselves did jack squat. I have friends like this. it's brutal for them. I won the lottery that way I guess, I lift weights and can't have manly muscles if I tried.  I've lost friends because hormones worked for me and not for them. sucks but biology is intricate and nuanced.

The Economist is a disaster on trans issues, haven't read one editorial that was positive (may have missed one). their statement is gross as a blanket statement, even if true for Lia Thomas. 

I don't share your experience or perspective, so I appreciate you sharing it.

What I will note is that just the paragraph you posted above is incredibly complex -- and you know that, saying as much in the bolded conclusion.  Are we to measure hormone levels, or are we to measure the effect that the hormones had?  And if so, what is the line?  Do we measure some metric of muscle mass?  Something else? 

In matters of deciding who gets to compete in what division of a given sport, intricate and nuanced complexity renders the task damned near impossible.  The fact that we don't even have established metrics because the process of biological transition is a pretty novel one in human history makes the difficult even harder.

We have to acknowledge that most everyone, even many of the most progressive among us, have a problem with Lia Thomas showing up in the women's division and kicking all the women's asses.  It's visibly and fundamentally unfair.  Her path has done a great disservice to trans people and trans athletes.  We should not just reflexively respond and have no path for trans athletes.  But we should not accept a path that moots the existence of a women's division for most sports.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

@Cheeseweasel once again your avatar man.  how that guy made it? facepalm for sure!

Yeah, it really is perfect for 99% of my responses. Peak Surly.

[crash_davis 23113]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

the answer is no, she should not. I've not said that outright but I damn sure made it clear changes are needed, including at the governing organizations on the rules to compete.

I guarantee you I won't get similar respect and answers to the questions I raise.  you want to solve this issue.  go to the root cause. it's not Lia Thomas. It's discrimination against kids and families. 

fucking lulz. no one is saying the kid can't compete. he/she just needs to compete against the gender that he/she was when he/she exited the pussy. 

[Brisketexan 105139]

5 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Counterpoint -- after living Daly's life, 95% of us would have died 10 years ago.   We wouldn't still be running around playing golf, drinking a fifth of jack a day, and banging Hooter's waitresses.  That man is an ATHLETE.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Counterpoint -- after living Daly's life, 95% of us would have died 10 years ago.   We wouldn't still be running around playing golf, drinking a fifth of jack a day, and banging Hooter's waitresses.  That man is an ATHLETE.

Now imagine if he and Keith Richards had a kid....

[Vic Mackey 47037]

Sucks for all the women who train their whole lives to beat by a biological male. You can't change biology no matter how many surgeries and procedures you have. This person went through puberty as a male and biologically has an advantage over females. Hence why they separate men and women in almost every sport. 

Same shit as Lebron now saying he is a trans and going to play in the WNBA. He's still biologically a male.

Kudos to the states who have put a stop to this shit at the high school level. And you can only compete based on what you were born as. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, Vic Mackey said:

Same shit as Lebron now saying he is a trans and going to play in the WNBA.

Sorry. I'm still not watching it.

[crash_davis 23113]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Sorry. I'm still not watching it.

don't discriminate, bro.

[midtown 3345]

4 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Same shit as Lebron now saying he is a trans and going to play in the WNBA. He's still biologically a male.

Well there is an opening for a male player in the WNBA since the other one is in jail in Russia

[phdhorn 6224]

2 hours ago, ONE YARD said:

awesome. bet it was exciting to see live.  everyone there was able to see history broken. 

I watched the replay.  For a bit a little closer than I thought, but after about 250Y Thomas was at least a body length or more in front, and widened the lead. It was over after the first 100 yards (shocker). 

The 500 is just above a sprint, so you'd certainly expect at least 2 swimmers to be neck/neck, and the winners within a body length of each other at most.  Not even close, and of course completely expected for anyone who's followed this.

Here's just before the finish - Thomas is in red circle, Emma Weyant (2nd) in blue, and Erica Sullivan (3rd) in yellow. 



As you can see, it was 1 1/2 body lengths at best.   You also have to wonder how Weyant and Sullivan approached this, knowing they were absolutely going to get their clocks cleaned unless Thomas suffers a heart attack or something midway through.  You have GOT to be "fuck this shit" to some degree.  Neither of them sure looked very happy on the podium, did they?

I don't think any reasonable person would say Thomas should never get the chance to compete for medals/championships, but it shouldn't be this.   I suppose I don't think she should pull herself from competition - she can only swim in what's available.  But anyone who thinks that this is anywhere near a fair thing should have their head examined.  Someone had better figure this shit out or else it'll be a clown show.

[immamac 42850]

28 minutes ago, troph said:

@Brisketexan it's way more complicated than what the economist says. some trans women respond to hormones in ways that put them clearly in the typical female range on physical attributes.  but for those in that class, it could take 1 year or it could take 5 years. there are at least 4 ways I'm aware of to take estrogen. how a body responds to a similar dose can be different based on how they take the treatment.  even some, despite trying the highest doses and all treatment methods simply can't feminize enough for their liking and in this case to compete.  I honestly suspect that's what's going on with a lot of these trans women who compete for medals. they have the right hormone levels but the hormones themselves did jack squat. I have friends like this. it's brutal for them. I won the lottery that way I guess, I lift weights and can't have manly muscles if I tried.  I've lost friends because hormones worked for me and not for them. sucks but biology is intricate and nuanced, not black and white like the Economist is making it out to be.

The Economist is a disaster on trans issues, haven't read one editorial that was positive (may have missed one). their statement is gross as a blanket statement, even if true for Lia Thomas. 

I think this is way less complex than everyone is making this. 

This person was on the MENS NCAA SWIMMING TEAM of a D1 school LAST YEAR. There is an easy way to do this, if you ever play mens sports in NCAA you can only compete with men. If you never competed before then whatever. 

I don't think it's weird or unfair or bias or bigoted to have a reasonable "if you competed with men before you compete with the men" rule.

[52-80 19157]

Lia Thomas absolutely should be allowed to compete in whatever sports she wants.

But unless we're only speaking to the mirror, has there been 1 single cogent argument in this thread on why Lia Thomas should be allowed to compete in the Womens division?

[Vic Mackey 47037]

2 minutes ago, immamac said:

I think this is way less complex than everyone is making this. 

This person was on the MENS NCAA SWIMMING TEAM of a D1 school LAST YEAR. There is an easy way to do this, if you ever play mens sports in NCAA you can only compete with men. If you never competed before then whatever. 

I don't think it's weird or unfair or bias or bigoted to have a reasonable "if you competed with men before you compete with the men" rule.

Absolutely. This shit is just dumb. You can't compete in the men's division one year and another year, the women. Tell me how this is fair at all. I'll wait...

[TurkeyChew 383]

It's hard to discern troph's point (or points?) in her posts because I think it's such a sensitive and personal topic, but did she say even she agrees that this is a travesty to competition? If so, obviously something in the system is broken and you have nearly unanimous agreement on the unfairness of it all. I would expect NCAA to have to do something.

[BabaYaga 15298]

1 hour ago, troph said:

they'd whip your ass too brother.

Probably.  But this is about competitive sports.  We have countless cases of low ranked natal males beating the highest level of elite natal female athletes...highlighting key biological distinctions between the two. 

Is the solution you are proposing to only allow those athletes that transitioned at an extremely early age in their development to compete?  For example, if they have not transitioned before puberty, then they are ineligible?  Interesting premise and not without merit, but it comes with a lot of other issues about transitioning at such a young age that are probably better suited for another thread.  

[BabaYaga 15298]

2 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

It's hard to discern troph's point (or points?) in her posts because I think it's such a sensitive and personal topic, but did she say even she agrees that this is a travesty to competition? If so, obviously something in the system is broken and you have nearly unanimous agreement on the unfairness of it all. I would expect NCAA to have to do something.

Third league?  Men's/women's/trans?  

[Brisketexan 105139]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Probably.  But this is about competitive sports.  We have countless cases of low ranked natal males beating the highest level of elite natal female athletes...highlighting key biological distinctions between the two. 

Is the solution you are proposing to only allow those athletes that transitioned at an extremely early age in their development to compete?  For example, if they have not transitioned before puberty, then they are ineligible?  Interesting premise and not without merit, but it comes with a lot of other issues about transitioning at such a young age that are probably better suited for another thread.  

Agree on the bolded - and I'm interested in that conversation (I suspect I'd mostly be listening, as I am far from well-informed in the biology of transition).  And maybe that is a way to create a bright line division, but as we know, even setting politics aside, it's a complicated question.

[BabaYaga 15298]

8 minutes ago, immamac said:

I think this is way less complex than everyone is making this. 

This person was on the MENS NCAA SWIMMING TEAM of a D1 school LAST YEAR. There is an easy way to do this, if you ever play mens sports in NCAA you can only compete with men. If you never competed before then whatever. 

I don't think it's weird or unfair or bias or bigoted to have a reasonable "if you competed with men before you compete with the men" rule.

Reasonable enough to allow women to compete with the males, but not the other way around.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

How does this comply with the letter and spirit of Title IX?

[crash_davis 23113]

for one of the previous world cup training, the US women's national soccer team scrimmaged a top florida high school aged men's/boy's select soccer team. this was the year they won the world cup. it was a closed practice/scrimmage session.

the USWNT got absolutely smoked by the select team. the select team would send long balls and the boys simply out ran the women. 

that this is even a discussion is a joke to women working their asses off to compete.

Edited March 18, 2022 by crash_davis

[Johnny Sack 8397]

[You don't know me 1161]

So the woman that finished 9th is not an All-American.  I'd like to get her take on this.

[crash_davis 23113]

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

i guess they even lost to an Under-15 boys team. 

again, there's a HUGE difference between male and female bodies. the best full grown women can't compete against 15 yr old boys. 

[troph 24798]

I've shared my perspective, y'all have fun.

Edited March 18, 2022 by troph

[Deej 76791]

2 hours ago, midtown said:

You don't go from being an average male athlete to one of the top female athletes without a massive physical advantage.

Probably just from  a cleaner line through the water without the bulge. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

3 minutes ago, Deej said:

Probably just from  a cleaner line through the water without the bulge. 

This guy still has a pecker.

[crash_davis 23113]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

This guy still has a pecker.

rudder to make her go in a straighter line????

[Deej 76791]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

This guy still has a pecker.

[immamac 42850]

25 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Lia Thomas absolutely should be allowed to compete in whatever sports she wants.

But unless we're only speaking to the mirror, has there been 1 single cogent argument in this thread on why Lia Thomas should be allowed to compete in the Womens division?

No, and I don't think anyone cares about the transgender thing - they care that she was a D1 level scholarship athlete in the MENS level. 

I don't give a shit if you take fucking hormones or get into a brutal accident. Once you have been at a D1 mens level you don't just with some pills regress to what is anywhere near fair at a D1 womens level. 

[Don Johnson 4753]

Just now, immamac said:

No, and I don't think anyone cares about the transgender thing - they care that she was a D1 level scholarship athlete in the MENS level. 

I don't give a shit if you take fucking hormones or get into a brutal accident. Once you have been at a D1 mens level you don't just with some pills regress to what is anywhere near fair at a D1 womens level. 

Yeah.  No one would give a shit if it was the other way around.  

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

28 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

 I would expect NCAA to have to do something.

ha! The NCAA has turned their head to this and many other noticeable discrepancies in  recent years. Corrupt and worthless organization in regards to the athletes. The MALE shouldn't have been allowed in the pool with the women on her own team vs. being at the National Championships. 

WOMEN THEMSELVES (athletes) are going to have to make the change and REFUSE to compete against someone that is not competing where they should. I would have loved it if all the WOMEN in the race false started and jumped/dove en masse into the pool, that would have made a statement and thus set the tone with how the majority of female athletes feel about this BS situation.

[TurkeyChew 383]

3 minutes ago, BillyGoatHill said:

ha! The NCAA has turned their head to this and many other noticeable discrepancies in  recent years. Corrupt and worthless organization in regards to the athletes. The MALE shouldn't have been allowed in the pool with the women on her own team vs. being at the National Championships. 

WOMEN THEMSELVES (athletes) are going to have to make the change and REFUSE to compete against someone that is not competing where they should. I would have loved it if all the WOMEN in the race false started and jumped/dove en masse into the pool, that would have made a statement and thus set the tone with how the majority of female athletes feel about this BS situation.

NCAA got dragged on twitter after a woman posted their gym which was inferior to the mens, almost a year to the date today, at the NCAAW tourney. 

This year, they are getting equal swag, equal hotel/gyms, and NCAA is using the term "March Madness" for their tourney this year as well (never had done before).

I think with enough pressure, the NCAA will have to do something-- as impossible as that might be (as Brisket points out, there are no good or easy solutions here).

That said, Swimming does not equal Basketball in the realm of "give a crap" in today's attention economy.

Edited March 18, 2022 by TurkeyChew

[BabaYaga 15298]

27 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

that this is even a discussion is a joke to women working their asses off to compete.

As  father of one, this is sensitive to me.  I also have some perspective.  My brothers daughter is flirting with a gender change.  She's already changed her name and pronouns, so we'll see what the next steps are.  I support and still love my niece immensely, but also have to take a step back and see the broader implications.  

 

[UncleSonny 6572]

 

12 minutes ago, immamac said:

No, and I don't think anyone cares about the transgender thing

Well…some clearly do:

17 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

This guy still has a pecker.

 

6 minutes ago, BillyGoatHill said:

The MALE shouldn't have been allowed in the pool with the women

 

[BabaYaga 15298]

6 minutes ago, BillyGoatHill said:

WOMEN THEMSELVES (athletes) are going to have to make the change and REFUSE to compete against someone that is not competing where they should.

Martina Navratilova spoke up early about this.  She was such a huge and pivotal catalyst for women's rights and she got her ass cancelled in a hurry.  I think most natal female athletes feel the same and self-censor to avoid the public backlash.