NCAA Statement on Transgender Participation

[Newdoc 3452]

7 hours ago, Don Johnson said:

The we should eliminate separation between men's and women's athletics and 99.99% of women will just have to deal with the fact they didn't win the "genetic lottery."

I actually don't agree with allowing the genetic male to compete in this realm but my point is that we have a traditional separation in our culture for sports competition based on a relatively objective mark (biological gender). The transgender community wants to move that point of division.

I'm playing devil's advocate in pointing out that there are inherent and significant advantages in having athletic parents with morphology that lends to their progeny to excel in certain sports. Should I claim it's unfair that I am not 6'10" and run a 4.5 40 and demand that 6"10" people shouldn't compete against me in basketball or football? Our society is rapidly accepting postmodern truth and gender for many has become fluid.

[52-80 19239]

This is just blatant gender appropriation

[MonkeyDoughnut 10355]

1 hour ago, Newdoc said:

I actually don't agree with allowing the genetic male to compete in this realm but my point is that we have a traditional separation in our culture for sports competition based on a relatively objective mark (biological gender). The transgender community wants to move that point of division.

I'm playing devil's advocate in pointing out that there are inherent and significant advantages in having athletic parents with morphology that lends to their progeny to excel in certain sports. Should I claim it's unfair that I am not 6'10" and run a 4.5 40 and demand that 6"10" people shouldn't compete against me in basketball or football? Our society is rapidly accepting postmodern truth and gender for many has become fluid.

We talking about same sex or different sex here? Want to make sure of the arbitrary (yet very historical I get it) distinction being made.

[Deej 76903]

5 hours ago, BillyGoatHill said:

Much like the East German swimmers in the 72 Olympics that had a state sponsored steroid program. In the relays and many other of the races they won by half a pool length. The US team has still refused to accept their silver medals that the IOC has locked in a vault, even after the fall of the iron curtain and the east German swimmers admitting to their doping program and the medals that they received ( now taken back, but the gold never awarded to the rightful swimmers).

 

Well, Vince didn't get his Heisman after it was taken away from Regina Bush.

[52-80 19239]

41 minutes ago, Deej said:

Well, Vince didn't get his Heisman after it was taken away from Regina Bush.

regina bush sounds like a 1980s phenomenon

[HRSchenker 2273]

I don't agree with the criticism of Lia Thomas. Can you really blame them for operating within the rules of the system? We allow people to change the gender on their birth certificate. Some states are allowing parents to put an X on their child's birth certificate for gender. Title IX guarantees Lia Thomas the right to compete and you can't deny that right on the basis of sex. 

This is the result of a system so many people have fought to create. Is it fair? Probably not. I think it's ridiculous that Thomas is our women's national champion in college swimming. But the only people who seem to be really vocal about it are men. Why aren't the athletes speaking out? BTW that's a rhetorical question. We all know why they're not speaking out. 

[midtown 3348]

1 minute ago, HRSchenker said:

I think it's ridiculous that Thomas is our women's national champion in college swimming.

In one event as of now not in all of whatever you decide to be aka womans swimming.   I do agree she is playing by the rules that the NCAA put forth.  They really are to blame in al this but also I think she isn't wining a lot of fans by insisting on using the womens locker room with her cock out.  Pretty freaking selfish from my viewpoint

[midtown 3348]

Btw.  In case anyone is wondering she finished tied for 5th in the 200.  UTs Kelly Pash finishes 3rd

Edited March 18, 2022 by midtown

[Scary Stranger 1715]

49 minutes ago, midtown said:

Btw.  In case anyone is wondering she finished tied for 5th in the 200.  UTs Kelly Pash finishes 3rd

She has sandbagged several times this year.  This was one of those. 

[ChickenSandwich 9850]

1 hour ago, HRSchenker said:

I don't agree with the criticism of Lia Thomas. Can you really blame them for operating within the rules of the system? We allow people to change the gender on their birth certificate. Some states are allowing parents to put an X on their child's birth certificate for gender. Title IX guarantees Lia Thomas the right to compete and you can't deny that right on the basis of sex. 

This is the result of a system so many people have fought to create. Is it fair? Probably not. I think it's ridiculous that Thomas is our women's national champion in college swimming. But the only people who seem to be really vocal about it are men. Why aren't the athletes speaking out? BTW that's a rhetorical question. We all know why they're not speaking out. 

So compete in the male/open division. 
 

Mens sports are basically open as it is. There are no rules preventing a female from competing in the MLB, NBA, NFL or the USMNT. Anyone is free to tryout and make the team. 
 

This shouldn’t be an issue. Everyone is free to compete, there is a separate biological female division for obvious reason. Politics is the only reason this is difficult. 

[Newdoc 3452]

2 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

We talking about same sex or different sex here? Want to make sure of the arbitrary (yet very historical I get it) distinction being made.

Same sex. I think someone in favor of transgender people in sports can start begging the question and ask about all the other factors that make sports unfair for people of different morphology. If you take M. Phleps as an example. He trained hard but he is also built like a freakish combination of a frog and a dolphin giving him a genetic leg up on men and the world.

We could tilt the conversation into languages, math, science, theater, etc. There are people in this world that just do things better than you or I because their genetic coding allows them to do it better no matter how much we work on that same skill. I cannot learn five languages fluently with nearly the proficiency of a couple of people I know. It then becomes up to our society to put value on those talents. Swimming fast in a pool or hitting a tennis ball over a net doesn't do much for society as a whole but a lot of people enjoy the competition.

I know I wouldn't be so Spock like about it if it were my daughter competing against the trans swimmer. There should very much be an asterisk on these records being broken if we are talking strictly "women's" swimming titles.

[midtown 3348]

I didn't know she was sandbagging races. Seemed odd

[OU Sucks 8911]

1 hour ago, HRSchenker said:

But the only people who seem to be really vocal about it are men. Why aren't the athletes speaking out? BTW that's a rhetorical question. We all know why they're not speaking out. 

Wat?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

28 minutes ago, midtown said:

I didn't know she was sandbagging races. Seemed odd

People are pissed at him. 

[HRSchenker 2273]

23 minutes ago, OU Sucks said:

Wat?

From the article 

Quote

Thomas’s teammates did not identify themselves in the letter. It was sent by Nancy Hogshead-Makar, a 1984 Olympic swimming gold medalist, lawyer and chief executive of Champion Women, a women’s sports advocacy organization. She said in a telephone interview that she sent the letter on the swimmers’ behalf so they could avoid retaliation; in the letter, the swimmers claim they were told “we would be removed from the team or that we would never get a job offer” if they spoke out against Thomas’s inclusion in women’s competition.

Everyone loves to talk about their morals and ethics until it requires sacrifice. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

4 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

From the article 

Everyone loves to talk about their morals and ethics until it requires sacrifice. 

Or they don’t want their lives ruined for stating something that is common sense.  That’s not on them.  That’s on the absurdity of the woke lynch mob.  

Edited March 19, 2022 by Johnny Sack

[52-80 19239]

15 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

From the article 

Everyone loves to talk about their morals and ethics until it requires sacrifice. 

"First they came for the athletes, and I did not speak out, for I was not a transgender swimmer."

[Scary Stranger 1715]

I didn't know she was sandbagging races. Seemed odd

Been a couple of races where her time was like 15 seconds slower than the previous race. That kind of difference isn’t having a bad race. Haven’t looked at what this race’s time was compared to prior.

[po elvis 2076]

2 minutes ago, Scary Stranger said:

Been a couple of races where her time was like 15 seconds slower than the previous race. That kind of difference isn’t having a bad race. Haven’t looked at what this race’s time was compared to prior.

honestly could just be the time of the month.

[Scary Stranger 1715]

honestly could just be the time of the month.

https://i.gifer.com/CIQQ.gif

[Wulaw Horn 19147]

I don’t get what Lia is getting out of doing this. She’s been around the sport and knows what kind of advantage it is. You can see that by her modifying her times to fit whatever she thinks she needs to do to win in the court of public opinion. 

 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

34 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I don’t get what Lia is getting out of doing this. She’s been around the sport and knows what kind of advantage it is. You can see that by her modifying her times to fit whatever she thinks she needs to do to win in the court of public opinion. 

 

Lia is dragging his balls all over women’s swimming.  

[troph 24905]

The bullshit folks are allowed to post in the name of cheap humor - it’s disgusting. @immamac @hayden_horn and whoever else is in charge should be ashamed. Reasoned discourse isn’t wanted. And before anyone says I’m butt hurt you need to read what I actually wrote - I said things need to change. This isn’t about the swimmer it’s about allowing people to post vile crap about my people which means me. Fuck all of you that post vile garbage. Fuck all of you that allow it. Fuck all of you that don’t call it out. Y’all are assholes. For real. I’m out. This is the only place in my world that I have to listen to vile bullshit. Not a boat or RV thread, a fishing story or a baseball thread that warrants me sticking around. I’ve got people in my life to love and raise, I have people that love me and think I’m pretty fucking cool. this shit is nothing but a distraction and it’s become a toxic one. I’m tired of being reasonable. Y’all can have it. Hope y’all enjoyed the laughs. Close to 30 years on these boards. It’s not worth it.  I’m out.  Goodbye and good luck. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by troph

[Ag with kids 581]

10 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

There are 6 "biological" sexes of note: X, XX, XXY, XY, XYY, XXXY

I assume you are talking reproductive capabilities at birth where is yes/no

The fact is the men's and women's categories were just easy broad grouping categories that excluded a portion of people. Times have changed to recognize that portion of people who were excluded up until now. If they are to be included in sports competition as we know it the competitions themselves would have to change, or we can just continue to exclude them.

 

I posted this earlier, but...

There should be TWO categories...

 

OPEN:  ANYONE can compete here.  X, XX, XXY, XY, XYY, XXXY doesn't matter.

WOMEN:  ONLY XY can compete here.

Everything other than XX and XY are basically biological aberrations  (which is why they're so rare).  I'm not denigrating them, just pointing that out.

[crash_davis 23115]

46 minutes ago, troph said:

The bullshit folks are allowed to post in the name of cheap humor - it’s disgusting. @immamac @hayden_horn and whoever else is in charge should be ashamed. Reasoned discourse isn’t wanted. And before anyone says I’m butt hurt you need to read what I actually wrote - I said things need to change. This isn’t about the swimmer it’s about allowing people to post vile crap about my people which means me. Fuck all of you that post vile garbage. Fuck all of you that allow it. Fuck all of you that don’t call it out. Y’all are assholes. For real. I’m out. This is the only place in my world that I have to listen to vile bullshit. Not a boat or RV thread, a fishing story or a baseball thread that warrants me sticking around. I’ve got people in my life to love and raise, I have people that love me and think I’m pretty fucking cool. this shit is nothing but a distraction and it’s become a toxic one. I’m tired of being reasonable. Y’all can have it. Hope y’all enjoyed the laughs. Close to 30 years on these boards. It’s not worth it.  I’m out.  Goodbye and good luck. 

quit being a bitch. we are speaking out for fairness of women athletes and by doing so we are attacking your "people"? no one attacked you.

on this site, we make fun of EVERYONE, blacks, gays, hispanics, asians, redneck, fat people, stupid people, poor people, rich people, etc. why should trans people be off limits just because you are hyper fucking sensitive? 

i'm going to watch some dave chappelle.

[mooseoutfront 3643]

23 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

I posted this earlier, but...

There should be TWO categories...

 

OPEN:  ANYONE can compete here.  X, XX, XXY, XY, XYY, XXXY doesn't matter.

WOMEN:  ONLY XY can compete here.

Everything other than XX and XY are basically biological aberrations  (which is why they're so rare).  I'm not denigrating them, just pointing that out.

XY is male.

XX is female.

Probably a typo, but an important one. 

[crash_davis 23115]

 

Surly Horns

A Place For Broken Brained Assholes

 

moose out front should've told ya.

[mooseoutfront 3643]

8 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

quit being a bitch. we are speaking out for fairness of women athletes and by doing so we are attacking your "people"? no one attacked you.

on this site, we make fun of EVERYONE, blacks, gays, hispanics, asians, redneck, fat people, stupid people, poor people, rich people, etc. why should trans people be off limits just because you are hyper fucking sensitive? 

i'm going to watch some dave chappelle.

This right here.

Being treated equally means you are eligible to be made fun of. It’s the common denominator around here. 
 

Reattach your sac. 

[4doorsMoreWhores 107]

14 hours ago, midtown said:

You don't go from being an average male athlete to one of the top female athletes without a massive physical advantage.   Let her compete but its insane that she should take a place away from a female athlete.   Award two firsts if you have to.   

Two firsts? Get the fuck outta here with that bullshit

[4doorsMoreWhores 107]

13 hours ago, troph said:

there's a lot of bullshit in this thread.  there's a fair amount of reasoned thought too.  I was planning to stay out of it because this is a dog whistle issue for the haters and my comments will be parsed, taken out of context and the most extreme examples will be used against me.

But I'll play.  If a fair discussion can be had, I'll provide an anecdote and then some additional commentary.

I play tennis. Men at my USTA rating smoke me every time - every time. My coach almost laughs when I say something like I could keep up with him. I win and lose against other women. I work harder than most and pay more to learn than most, I'm improving and moving up. When I move up a level, I lose most matches. Once I figure it out, adjust, learn the new skills and strategies, I start to compete.  18 months after moving up, I start winning more.  Then I move up again.  I'm at my ceiling almost and will be an above average club tennis player.  Mostly because I obsess over it and I work my ass off.  I still face women - stay at home moms - that hit harder than I do. Some have more mental toughness than I do.  Many don't.  What's the point here? Almost all non-professional, non-world class athletics are about competing, playing, learning physical skills, learning life skills, metaphor for life (RIP Augie), and having fun.  you can't take that away from people, and that's exactly what a lot of you want whether you admit it or not.

second, politics. you can't say on the one hand a trans kid can't transition and has to wait until they are older, then say oh sorry, you didn't transition early enough, you can't play.  that's infuriating bullshit.  complete fucking bullshit.  fuck every last politician doing this.  this is the webster definition of fucked up discrimination, othering, systematic discrimination, exclusion, and attempt to erase and eliminate. hell is waiting for all in power that take this position.

from there, I think trans folks can compete in their gendered class but I think the organizations in charge are probably not stringent enough on who should be able to compete. I think it's even more of an issue in the individual sports that are purely physical and less mental/strategic.  singles tennis has so much more than strength (I've been smoked by a team with two ladies over 65 years old more than I care to count (doubles)), but the core Olympic sports like running, jumping, throwing, swimming, cycling, not so much.  It's hard not to see that.  not sure what to do about it.  I don't think it's an outright ban, I think it's something else. But again, this is totally fucked up unfair when coupled with the red meat politics of banning early transition.

finally, it sucks but no trans athlete can ever win for any reason other than they are trans.  I play on losing tennis teams so I can avoid this issue. despite the fact that I'm a middle of the road competitor - winning and losing in my competitive bracket. my worst nightmare is being on a winning team. 

in the end, most of this is about letting kids ... and middle aged adults have fun.  if you want to dog whistle I can't do anything about that.  but if you want to look at this issue for what it is, we are talking a very small percentage of cases that might need to be dealt with, and I don't have the answer but can support a closer look at it.

Just have a separate "trans only" division. Problem solved

[po elvis 2076]

4 hours ago, troph said:

The bullshit folks are allowed to post in the name of cheap humor - it’s disgusting. @immamac @hayden_horn and whoever else is in charge should be ashamed. Reasoned discourse isn’t wanted. And before anyone says I’m butt hurt you need to read what I actually wrote - I said things need to change. This isn’t about the swimmer it’s about allowing people to post vile crap about my people which means me. Fuck all of you that post vile garbage. Fuck all of you that allow it. Fuck all of you that don’t call it out. Y’all are assholes. For real. I’m out. This is the only place in my world that I have to listen to vile bullshit. Not a boat or RV thread, a fishing story or a baseball thread that warrants me sticking around. I’ve got people in my life to love and raise, I have people that love me and think I’m pretty fucking cool. this shit is nothing but a distraction and it’s become a toxic one. I’m tired of being reasonable. Y’all can have it. Hope y’all enjoyed the laughs. Close to 30 years on these boards. It’s not worth it.  I’m out.  Goodbye and good luck. 

duly noted. time of the month jokes about women are off limits.

[SL Xpress 7518]

4 hours ago, troph said:

The bullshit folks are allowed to post in the name of cheap humor - it’s disgusting. @immamac @hayden_horn and whoever else is in charge should be ashamed. Reasoned discourse isn’t wanted. And before anyone says I’m butt hurt you need to read what I actually wrote - I said things need to change. This isn’t about the swimmer it’s about allowing people to post vile crap about my people which means me. Fuck all of you that post vile garbage. Fuck all of you that allow it. Fuck all of you that don’t call it out. Y’all are assholes. For real. I’m out. This is the only place in my world that I have to listen to vile bullshit. Not a boat or RV thread, a fishing story or a baseball thread that warrants me sticking around. I’ve got people in my life to love and raise, I have people that love me and think I’m pretty fucking cool. this shit is nothing but a distraction and it’s become a toxic one. I’m tired of being reasonable. Y’all can have it. Hope y’all enjoyed the laughs. Close to 30 years on these boards. It’s not worth it.  I’m out.  Goodbye and good luck. 

Do what you want, but I will tell you the biggest problem in this country with second place being a long distance away has been our creation of echo chambers. It’s not fair to ask of you to be some kind of person on the front lines for the issues/perspective you espouse when you have the perception you’re in enemy territory. I’m not going to tell you not to take offense, that it’s “not personal” and that “everyone gets made fun of.” If I were in your shoes that would not feel compelling to me. 

What I will say is if you feel like a lone wolf for a position/tribe you advocate - in this case LGBTQ, and specifically transgender - then maybe you’re exactly what this community needs. 

Tribalism is at its most dangerous when there’s no exposure to the other side. It creates an ignorance. Inherently as a tribal species we begin to demonize the other side, which can lead to seeing it as an existential threat that has to be marginalized and/or exterminated. We don’t have our preconceived notions effectively challenged. By FAR the most effective counter to tribalism is some kind of personal relationship imbued with respect and admiration for a member of the opposing tribe. That never forms in an echo chamber. 

The advent of the internet, the profitable dissection of our society into tranches, each with their preferred presentation of information, means that each tribe seeks out fellow members who then echo the group think, create litmus tests for what is required to be a member of the tribe, and then paint any who oppose those litmus tests as fundamentally flawed and evil. 

I’m not saying you’re saving the world by posting on surlyhorns. That’s absurd. Maybe you never make a difference at all. I don’t know. But I do know the true battle we’re in as a society is the battle between our most basic tribal impulses - impulses that aren’t going anywhere, btw - and our brain’s amazing cognitive ability to overcome those impulses if presented with compelling persuasion. Honestly, sometimes that compelling persuasion is not on the positive end. Shame, fear, guilt, pain can be tools to repress our natural instincts as well. But so can love, respect, admiration, passion, and conviction. 

I’ll tell you up front I’m not in favor of biological men who identify as women being allowed to compete in women’s sports. I will also say I am not an LGBTQ ally on most issues. That said, we need more love in this world, and people should be encouraged to love who they want. Whatever discomfort I might feel in this regard is my problem, that deals with my issues and background, not on the people who just want to love one another. 

In any case, I’m convicted you’re an important voice on this board. You are a great community member who interacts with everyone in constructive/positive ways. If you’re feeling embattled right now I appreciate you’re feeling that way, and don’t want to delegitimize it in any way. That said, that feeling of being embattled may be exactly the reason you’re supposed to be posting on here. We need to hear an alternative perspective from someone we trust and respect that gets outside our own echo chambers. 

[pops 7006]

7 hours ago, mooseoutfront said:

This right here.

Being treated equally means you are eligible to be made fun of. It’s the common denominator around here. 
 

Reattach your sac. 

I mean....most perfect username checking out in the history of the site?

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13523]

I imagine many trans people are upset with the horrible things that have been said over the past few days but honesty it all starts that the woman in question. She shouldn’t have participated. By all rules, she has a right to participate. But she chose to set off this criticism. Her selfishness set back trans acceptance and a whole new slew of laws will soon be created. Even worse than what many states are already proposed or passed.

Whenever a trans woman wins a sports championship against other women, it will always be viewed as suspect. People may celebrate her win. Competitors may even will say they’re ok with it. But they’re not. The silence in defending this swimmer’s win is deafening.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

This shit is insane.  He still has his franks and beans.  He changes in the same locker room.  He is attracted to women.   His teammates are uncomfortable due to this.  I don’t see how feminists aren’t losing their shit over this.  Our world has lost its damn mind.  

[Pam Cummings 9654]

8 hours ago, troph said:

The bullshit folks are allowed to post in the name of cheap humor - it’s disgusting. @immamac @hayden_horn and whoever else is in charge should be ashamed. Reasoned discourse isn’t wanted. And before anyone says I’m butt hurt you need to read what I actually wrote - I said things need to change. This isn’t about the swimmer it’s about allowing people to post vile crap about my people which means me. Fuck all of you that post vile garbage. Fuck all of you that allow it. Fuck all of you that don’t call it out. Y’all are assholes. For real. I’m out. This is the only place in my world that I have to listen to vile bullshit. Not a boat or RV thread, a fishing story or a baseball thread that warrants me sticking around. I’ve got people in my life to love and raise, I have people that love me and think I’m pretty fucking cool. this shit is nothing but a distraction and it’s become a toxic one. I’m tired of being reasonable. Y’all can have it. Hope y’all enjoyed the laughs. Close to 30 years on these boards. It’s not worth it.  I’m out.  Goodbye and good luck. 

I think its shitty as fuck for this person to be ruining this competition for these other athletes that have trained really hard. That they used "being trans" to do it makes no difference to me; this person is a cheat and a POS and it certainly is a bad look for the trans community.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Pam Cummings

[Billy Pilgrim 1984]

4 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

Do what you want, but I will tell you the biggest problem in this country with second place being a long distance away has been our creation of echo chambers. It’s not fair to ask of you to be some kind of person on the front lines for the issues/perspective you espouse when you have the perception you’re in enemy territory. I’m not going to tell you not to take offense, that it’s “not personal” and that “everyone gets made fun of.” If I were in your shoes that would not feel compelling to me. 

What I will say is if you feel like a lone wolf for a position/tribe you advocate - in this case LGBTQ, and specifically transgender - then maybe you’re exactly what this community needs. 

Tribalism is at its most dangerous when there’s no exposure to the other side. It creates an ignorance. Inherently as a tribal species we begin to demonize the other side, which can lead to seeing it as an existential threat that has to be marginalized and/or exterminated. We don’t have our preconceived notions effectively challenged. By FAR the most effective counter to tribalism is some kind of personal relationship imbued with respect and admiration for a member of the opposing tribe. That never forms in an echo chamber. 

The advent of the internet, the profitable dissection of our society into tranches, each with their preferred presentation of information, means that each tribe seeks out fellow members who then echo the group think, create litmus tests for what is required to be a member of the tribe, and then paint any who oppose those litmus tests as fundamentally flawed and evil. 

I’m not saying you’re saving the world by posting on surlyhorns. That’s absurd. Maybe you never make a difference at all. I don’t know. But I do know the true battle we’re in as a society is the battle between our most basic tribal impulses - impulses that aren’t going anywhere, btw - and our brain’s amazing cognitive ability to overcome those impulses if presented with compelling persuasion. Honestly, sometimes that compelling persuasion is not on the positive end. Shame, fear, guilt, pain can be tools to repress our natural instincts as well. But so can love, respect, admiration, passion, and conviction. 

I’ll tell you up front I’m not in favor of biological men who identify as women being allowed to compete in women’s sports. I will also say I am not an LGBTQ ally on most issues. That said, we need more love in this world, and people should be encouraged to love who they want. Whatever discomfort I might feel in this regard is my problem, that deals with my issues and background, not on the people who just want to love one another. 

In any case, I’m convicted you’re an important voice on this board. You are a great community member who interacts with everyone in constructive/positive ways. If you’re feeling embattled right now I appreciate you’re feeling that way, and don’t want to delegitimize it in any way. That said, that feeling of being embattled may be exactly the reason you’re supposed to be posting on here. We need to hear an alternative perspective from someone we trust and respect that gets outside our own echo chambers. 

This incredibly insightful post is right on target. Social media has created a situation where you can only get the news you want to hear without seeing all sides of a situation. Like he said, we should get all points of view on a topic otherwise we vilify a segment of the population because we create a dangerous echo chamber where we all unanimously deem “this side good, that side bad”. Silencing a dissenting opinion is a dangerous thing. The cloakroom nerds should go and read SLX’s post and think about it.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

This shit is insane.  He still has his franks and beans.  He changes in the same locker room.  He is attracted to women.   His teammates are uncomfortable due to this.  I don’t see how feminists aren’t losing their shit over this.  Our world has lost its damn mind.  

He raced a good race. Be happy for him

[TwiceHorn 31534]

22 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah.....even among the most progressive folks I know, they see and have an issue with the approach of "changed gender, now compete in the other gender's sports."  Acknowledging the cold hard fact that in most athletic endeavors, males have a material advantage, it is simply unfair to allow a person who is male in the ATHLETIC respect (testosterone during developing periods, muscle development, etc.) compete in women's sports.  I think most are okay with it the other direction -- a biologically born woman transitioning to male and competing in male events, because that person has not extra advantage.

None of this takes away from empathy for the challenges of being trans, having to live your life in that circumstance, and wanting to compete.  I understand -- and again, the most progressive folks I know understand -- how much you want to "live a normal life."  But in matters that measure biological feats (and that's what athletics is), it is illogical and unfair to deny the role of biology in setting the bar.

We acknowledge inherent biological factors in sports like wrestling and boxing, where there are weight classes.  Male or female, we don't allow a 6 foot tall heavyweight to identify as a bantamweight and beat the fuck out of a 5 foot tall boxer.

Maybe the solution is -- where it's possible -- to have an "open" division.  Male, female, trans, anyone who wants can swim the 100m freestyle in the "open" division.

Ultimately, this issue is HARMFUL for the trans community, because while a great many people have real empathy, and want to make their path as easy as possible, fundamental ideals of fairness tells people that you don't remedy a situation by creating a counter fundamental unfairness, particularly one that shits on a group (women) who have had to fight for a long-ass time just to get something approaching parity in athletic opportunity.

I concede that it is "unfair."  This is probably one area where gender is more than a social construct, and those are pretty rare.

That it's harmful to the transgender community is an interesting observation.  And probably accurate.  Also kind of sets up an issue between transmasc and transfem, as I think the transfem are going to raise the issue more often than transfem, if not exclusively.

I think that the Lia Thomas situation is a real outlier and it's not going to become an endemic problem, especially at the higher levels of sport:  college, olympic, professional.

At the more amateur levels of sport, it raises some interesting questions about the nature of competition and the value of "winning."

But I am virtually certain that the issue should be left to the sanctioning bodies of the various sports, to resolve in accordance with the best interests of the sport.

I am equally certain that legislatures have no place in this at all, especially at the level at which they can regulate it (meaning states mostly high school and below and feds mostly college and above).

 

[4doorsMoreWhores 107]

21 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

Sucks for all the women who train their whole lives to beat by a biological male. You can't change biology no matter how many surgeries and procedures you have. This person went through puberty as a male and biologically has an advantage over females. Hence why they separate men and women in almost every sport. 

Same shit as Lebron now saying he is a trans and going to play in the WNBA. He's still biologically a male.

Kudos to the states who have put a stop to this shit at the high school level. And you can only compete based on what you were born as. 

 

[Captainant 27755]

14 minutes ago, Billy Pilgrim said:

This incredibly insightful post is right on target. Social media has created a situation where you can only get the news you want to hear without seeing all sides of a situation. Like he said, we should get all points of view on a topic otherwise we vilify a segment of the population because we create a dangerous echo chamber where we all unanimously deem “this side good, that side bad”. Silencing a dissenting opinion is a dangerous thing. The cloakroom nerds should go and read SLX’s post and think about it.

I thinks Trophs point in saying "fuck this shit I'm out" is that she's been posting here long enough to know that y'all aren't looking for dissenting opinions - shit this whole thread has been people saying "well yeah that's pretty fucked and unfair up for someone to switch from men's to women's and win it all".

in this case, can you point out where the "cloakroom nerds" were arguing otherwise, or otherwise making a significantly different point? You and sack and rittenhouse meme man and MN horn are all weeping and gnashing your teeth over how to the wOkE lEfT is being so outrageous to support this, but it's not what the dialogue of this thread has been. Your insistence on this false pretense frustrates any real conversation and instigates the echo chamber you claim to abhor.

And to SLX's main point, you're touching on the paradox of tolerance. There is no tolerable way to other someone or intentionally misgender them as brother deacon Sack did, aside from being a sack of shit. There's no tolerable reason to criminalize parents for raising a child that decided they're a different gender.

Accordingly, there is no equally valid "other side" unless you're accepting that making people less than (and in some cases criminalizing and taking away their children) is the America you want to create for your children.

This thread started out ok, but quickly got DT'd. It's a shame. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Captainant

[Johnny Sack 8397]

6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I thinks Trophs point in saying "fuck this shit I'm out" is that she's been posting here long enough to know that y'all aren't looking for dissenting opinions - shit this whole thread has been people saying "well yeah that's pretty fucked and unfair up for someone to switch from men's to women's and win it all".

in this case, can you point out where the "cloakroom nerds" were arguing otherwise, or otherwise making a significantly different point? You and sack and rittenhouse meme man and MN horn are all weeping and gnashing your teeth over how to the wOkE lEfT is being so outrageous to support this, but it's not what the dialogue of this thread has been. Your insistence on this false pretense frustrates any real conversation and instigates the echo chamber you claim to abhor.

And to SLX's main point, you're touching on the paradox of tolerance. There is no tolerable way to other someone or intentionally misgender them as brother deacon Sack did, aside from being a sack of shit. There's no tolerable reason to criminalize parents for raising a child that decided they're a different gender.

Accordingly, there is no equally valid "other side" unless you're accepting that making people less than (and in some cases criminalizing and taking away their children) is the America you want to create for your children.

This thread started out ok, but quickly got DT'd. It's a shame. 

I didn’t misgender him.  You did.  He has a penis and testicles.  He is a male.  He isn’t a woman any more than he is a magical unicorn.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

And yes mutilating a prepubescent minor is child abuse.  
 

If an 11 year old has body dysmorphia — say anorexia —  you wouldn’t get him or her a gastric bypass.  

[Billy Pilgrim 1984]

10 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I thinks Trophs point in saying "fuck this shit I'm out" is that she's been posting here long enough to know that y'all aren't looking for dissenting opinions - shit this whole thread has been people saying "well yeah that's pretty fucked and unfair up for someone to switch from men's to women's and win it all".

in this case, can you point out where the "cloakroom nerds" were arguing otherwise, or otherwise making a significantly different point? You and sack and rittenhouse meme man and MN horn are all weeping and gnashing your teeth over how to the wOkE lEfT is being so outrageous to support this, but it's not what the dialogue of this thread has been. Your insistence on this false pretense frustrates any real conversation and instigates the echo chamber you claim to abhor.

And to SLX's main point, you're touching on the paradox of tolerance. There is no tolerable way to other someone or intentionally misgender them as brother deacon Sack did, aside from being a sack of shit. There's no tolerable reason to criminalize parents for raising a child that decided they're a different gender.

Accordingly, there is no equally valid "other side" unless you're accepting that making people less than (and in some cases criminalizing and taking away their children) is the America you want to create for your children.

This thread started out ok, but quickly got DT'd. It's a shame. 

I’m saying the cloakroom is an echo chamber and the fact you don’t recognize it proves my point.

[TwiceHorn 31534]

9 hours ago, troph said:

The bullshit folks are allowed to post in the name of cheap humor - it’s disgusting. @immamac @hayden_horn and whoever else is in charge should be ashamed. Reasoned discourse isn’t wanted. And before anyone says I’m butt hurt you need to read what I actually wrote - I said things need to change. This isn’t about the swimmer it’s about allowing people to post vile crap about my people which means me. Fuck all of you that post vile garbage. Fuck all of you that allow it. Fuck all of you that don’t call it out. Y’all are assholes. For real. I’m out. This is the only place in my world that I have to listen to vile bullshit. Not a boat or RV thread, a fishing story or a baseball thread that warrants me sticking around. I’ve got people in my life to love and raise, I have people that love me and think I’m pretty fucking cool. this shit is nothing but a distraction and it’s become a toxic one. I’m tired of being reasonable. Y’all can have it. Hope y’all enjoyed the laughs. Close to 30 years on these boards. It’s not worth it.  I’m out.  Goodbye and good luck. 

Please don't go.  I know it's tiresome, but you are a valued poster here, and, as SLX said, your perspective on these issues is invaluable as is your presence here.  If nothing else, you are or should be a reminder to us all that trans folk are human and deserve to be treated as such.

 

[Captainant 27755]

6 minutes ago, Billy Pilgrim said:

I’m saying the cloakroom is an echo chamber and the fact you don’t recognize it proves my point.

Yes, that is the talking point you've learned.

 

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Please don't go.  I know it's tiresome, but you are a valued poster here, and, as SLX said, your perspective on these issues is invaluable as is your presence here.  If nothing else, you are or should be a reminder to us all that trans folk are human and deserve to be treated as such.

It's not Trophs job to remind sack and the other people cracking jokes at her expense that trans people are people.

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

And yes mutilating a prepubescent minor is child abuse.  
 

If an 11 year old has body dysmorphia — say anorexia —  you wouldn’t get him or her a gastric bypass.  

Can you point out any instances or occurrences where parents are doing gender reassignment surgery to 11 year olds? Speaking Texas current events, parents are being investigated because they let their kid wear clothes and present as a different gender - NOT because of reassignment surgery.

Because you seem to be conflating two significantly different things to draw an emotional response from your peers so they don't actually look at reality.

Kinda reminds me of how the same subset of posters reacted towards CRT, now that I think about it... Weird how it's the same tactic...

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Captainant

[4doorsMoreWhores 107]

8 minutes ago, Billy Pilgrim said:

I’m saying the cloakroom is an echo chamber and the fact you don’t recognize it proves my point.

Nailed it. CaptainCloakroom hates it when others don't share his opinion

[Captainant 27755]

Hoo boy here we go, it was fun while it lasted gang. Thread was going so well until it became the place to make jokes about trans people and comment how they're child mutiliaters. 

On 4/13/2021 at 7:50 AM, immamac said:

You are free to start a thread about those ramifications. That thread is almost certainly a CR topic. 

All posts in this thread need to directly reference the NCAA, the possible moving of sanctioned event locations and the NCAA rules on transgender participation. That's a BROAD topic.

This isn't the talk about trans people and sports thread. 

But in the spirit of immas post on what the thread should be, I'll bow out and let y'all keep enjoying making jokes at trans folks expense. Have fun!

[TwiceHorn 31534]

6 minutes ago, Billy Pilgrim said:

I’m saying the cloakroom is an echo chamber and the fact you don’t recognize it proves my point.

I agree with SLX that tribalism is in effect in the Cloak Room, and virtually anywhere where "like minds" can gather and bloviate. It has created serious problems among the "right wing" in this country, but non-right folk are just as susceptible.

And I personally am on guard to try to make sure that my current distaste for most things "conservative" is authentic and reality-based and not the product of tribalism or message board orthodoxy.  And I am reasonably certain that most of the CR cabal is more right than wrong.  But bad tweets coming from "the left" are frequently posted and often debunked rather rapidly, or at least placed in a more accurate context.

I dislike the labeling as trolls of anyone who voices a dissenting opinion in CR and tries to stick with it and defend it.  Often as not, a dissenting poster in CR brings in opinions that are the product of "alt-right" media/propaganda and they get pantsed, easily.  

[TwiceHorn 31534]

11 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Yes, that is the talking point you've learned.

 

It's not Trophs job to remind sack and the other people cracking jokes at her expense that trans people are people.

Can you point out any instances or occurrences where parents are doing gender reassignment surgery to 11 year olds? Speaking Texas current events, parents are being investigated because they let their kid wear clothes and present as a different gender - NOT because of reassignment surgery.

Because you seem to be conflating two significantly different things to draw an emotional response from your peers so they don't actually look at reality.

Kinda reminds me of how the same subset of posters reacted towards CRT, now that I think about it... Weird how it's the same tactic...

 

It's not troph's job, no.  But her simple presence here should accomplish that. And whether she heeds what I said or not, I think it's true and she should hear it, if nothing else.