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TexasHooch

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TexasHooch

TexasHooch 5122

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There was another officer involved shooting last night which led to the death of another black man.  There is more unrest.

https://www.startribune.com/police-fatally-shoot-black-man-daunte-wright-minnesota-brooklyn-center-protest/600045002/

The shooting last night occurred in Brooklyn Center, which is a first ring suburb of Minneapolis.  So, while this one doesn't fall on the Minneapolis Police Department, that's a distinction without a difference for many up here.  The fact that much of the public is assuming it was dirty until proven otherwise is of no surprise either.

 

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Enchubben
Enchubben

This thread is peak surly. I’ve now seen advocacy for removing firearms from police officers, assembling a new force of meter maids to do traffic violations, a nationwide network of speed cameras

MonkeyDoughnut
MonkeyDoughnut

Gotta show up for your hearing if you want to do that

HoustonFrog
HoustonFrog

Perhaps I’m just different than everyone else, but my first reaction when confronted with a police presence and/or a gun in my face is to say nothing, don’t move and do whatever they want. It’s certai

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105105

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11 minutes ago, Clintonaldo said:

I was watching CNN and they went to the news conference on the new shooting and played the body cam footage of latest shooting. It appears got was going for tazer and instead went for his gun. 

Oh for fuck's sake.

I hate this timeline.

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gsoda3

gsoda3 3256

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6 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

That's a colossal fuck up if that's what happened.

yeah, well...

12 minutes ago, GopherRock said:

Tried to draw her taser and got her pistol instead.

 

 

thank god she doesn't get paid as much as men.

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Guest Lobo

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Isn't it official policy to keep your taser on your non-dominant side hip?  

Or do we have the first ambidextrous female murderer in MPD history?  She'll probably get a station named after her, so there's that.

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clapclapclap

clapclapclap 9000

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Here's the video (hopefully before CaptainAnt starts his bullshit about "An innocent kid got shot because he had air freshener in his car!"  Yes, that was all over twitter yesterday and today.)

He was stopped for an arrest warrant after failing to appear in court on gun charges.  As one officer is trying to cuff him, he suddenly breaks free and jumps in his car.  That officer struggles with him, while a female officer yells "Taser" several times before firing, and then he drives off.

 

Obviously she blew it by reaching for the wrong weapon (did they water down her qualifying to reach female hiring quotas?  Obviously male cops do stupid things, too.  But asking if it could have been a factor.  Do you want reform to true higher standards or not?  Because making exceptions creates higher risks.)

But like almost all of these shootings, it almost certainly doesn't happen if the suspect had complied with the officers. 

(Note to "But ___" knee jerks:  That idiotic VA stop of the military guy wasn't a shooting.)

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TexasHooch

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1 minute ago, Lobo said:

Isn't it official policy to keep your taser on your non-dominant side hip?  

Or do we have the first ambidextrous female murderer in MPD history?  She'll probably get a station named after her, so there's that.

Not MPD, but yeah, that's how it's done.  Problem is that it's unlikely she spends as much of her time in front of the mirror drawing her pistol than her male counterparts.  Not as much muscle memory.

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Nicole44

Nicole44 22059

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A thought: if we only went after violent criminals and kept them where they need to be instead offenders charged with lesser crimes? I don’t have an answer for this shit. Odds are if you are on traffic detail and run a minority person’s license you are going to find they have an outstanding warrant. My problem with that is it’s petty shit. Why bother. They want you to run or fight or or protest. Unless they are a fucking murderer, let them be. Damn (also if you have a warrant for your arrest on something—damnit you are a dumbass)

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TexasHooch

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I won't watch the video again, but I saw multiple mistakes before the big one.  First officer had way too much trouble getting the cuffs on.  Female officer announced "he's got a warrant" within ear shot of the guy and before he was secured.  Female officer reached out and grabbed the guy, as if to help secure him, but had a piss poor grip and zero leverage.  

As for the makeup of the guy who was killed?  Yeah, he was a wanted man who tried to get away.  The consequences for that are additional charges, not an immediate death sentence.

Edited by TexasHooch
Can't confirm why he had a warrant. Only that it was for a Gross Misd.
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Captainant

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17 minutes ago, clapclapclap said:

But like almost all of these shootings, it almost certainly doesn't happen if the suspect had complied with the officers. 

You're right, anyone who fails to comply with the police is subject to death. You'd at least hope for some time in the isocubes, but the street judges are really getting trigger happy these days.

Your enthusiasm for excusing state violence against its unarmed citizens is noted.

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Nicole44

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5 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Does Minneapolis PD purposefully recruit the worst cops in the country?  Oops, sorry meant to grab my taser is one of the worst excuses yet.

Training is a huge deal. We have had a lot of officers killed lately also fwiw. I see both sides of a shitty issue. I hate this shit. Go to court and pay what you can pay off a warrant. Stop issuing warrants on minor offenses. 

 

3 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

i don't think so.

Really?

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gsoda3

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4 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

Really?

you really believe this without being hyperbolic?

 

Quote

Odds are if you are on traffic detail and run a minority person’s license you are going to find they have an outstanding warrant. 

 

 

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Brisketexan

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7 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

Training is a huge deal. We have had a lot of officers killed lately also fwiw. I see both sides of a shitty issue.

Just a note -- lots of folks around here note that "actually, not that many unarmed black men are shot each year."  And they aren't wrong.  The thing is.....not that many cops are shot, either.  It happens.  It's awful when it does.  But as has been pointed out, being a cop is far from the most dangerous profession.

By treating it as if it were, we justify all manners of abuses.  Which creates more mistrust.  Which creates more citizen resistance.  Which leads to more violent interactions.  I don't see how to stop that spiral.  Shit, I don't even see much interest in stopping it.

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gsoda3

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3 minutes ago, usmc0331horn said:

WHy the fuck was he pulled over AND why would she need a fucking taser for some routine traffic stop? ACAB jesus christ this would never in a million years happen to me. That poor kid.

not sure why he was pulled over.  there's a video at the top of this page, the officers were trying to arrest him and he broke free and got back into the car, that's when she pulled her "taser" and shot him.

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TexasHooch

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3 minutes ago, usmc0331horn said:

WHy the fuck was he pulled over AND why would she need a fucking taser for some routine traffic stop? ACAB jesus christ this would never in a million years happen to me. That poor kid.

I don't think we know yet why he was stopped in the first place, but at the point in which the (wrong) weapon was pulled and discharged, it was no longer a routine traffic  stop. He had pulled away and jumped into a car that hadn't been searched.  IMO, the taser would have been justified.

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Nicole44

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2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Just a note -- lots of folks around here note that "actually, not that many unarmed black men are shot each year."  And they aren't wrong.  The thing is.....not that many cops are shot, either.  It happens.  It's awful when it does.  But as has been pointed out, being a cop is far from the most dangerous profession.

By treating it as if it were, we justify all manners of abuses.  Which creates more mistrust.  Which creates more citizen resistance.  Which leads to more violent interactions.  I don't see how to stop that spiral.  Shit, I don't even see much interest in stopping it.

We could start by valuing human life. I don’t think most officers make a split second decision thinking “man I really want to shoot a non-white person today! Fuck ya! Let’s hit it!” Are there some who do that? Yep. And that is sickening and awful and depraved. I’d like to hunt them down like the fuckers they are. 
 

 

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Brisketexan

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1 minute ago, Nicole44 said:

We could start by valuing human life. I don’t think most officers make a split second decision thinking “man I really want to shoot a non-white person today! Fuck ya! Let’s hit it!” Are there some who do that? Yep. And that is sickening and awful and depraved. I’d like to hunt them down like the fuckers they are. 
 

 

I think you're right.  I don't think that MOST of them are acting in a purposeful, predatory fashion.  Instead, I think they've been trained to not give a fuck about lives other than their own, and their "brother officers."  It is an exclusive club, of which we the people are not a member.

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Hanrahan

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16 minutes ago, usmc0331horn said:

WHy the fuck was he pulled over AND why would she need a fucking taser for some routine traffic stop? ACAB jesus christ this would never in a million years happen to me. That poor kid.

Did you watch the video, captain potato?

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HoustonFrog

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I think you're right.  I don't think that MOST of them are acting in a purposeful, predatory fashion.  Instead, I think they've been trained to not give a fuck about lives other than their own, and their "brother officers."  It is an exclusive club, of which we the people are not a member.

Just not true. What they are trained to do is NOT let people walk away with warrants, especially if they resist arrest and there are multiple officers on scene. That’s like down the fairway part of their job, routine type stuff. They are also trained on the proper weapon to use, which in this case was correctly a taser. They are also trained to then actually fire the correct weapon, which was horrifically done incorrectly.

This officer should never hold a law enforcement job again, that’s an error that just can’t happen. But I don’t think she should be charged, maybe unlawful firing of a weapon or something.

If you’re going to charge her for murder on that, and continue to pay police $40-$60k, things are going to get worse not better. Applications from the smarter, better candidates are going to tank as the pay just isn’t worth the risk, both from harm and legal if you legitimately mess up.
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Nicole44

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5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I think you're right.  I don't think that MOST of them are acting in a purposeful, predatory fashion.  Instead, I think they've been trained to not give a fuck about lives other than their own, and their "brother officers."  It is an exclusive club, of which we the people are not a member.

I just wish for minor offenses (non violent ones) there would not be a warrant. Just a ding on your credit deal. It breaks my heart (white girl tears and weaponizing and all) that people down on their luck are further victims for petty crimes. I also get that when you pull someone over you have to think of you and your own. I see @Constant still offers drive arounds in his squad car. Or have y’all chased him off the board bc he is a Sooner?

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lemonlime

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21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Just a note -- lots of folks around here note that "actually, not that many unarmed black men are shot each year."  And they aren't wrong.  The thing is.....not that many cops are shot, either.  It happens.  It's awful when it does.  But as has been pointed out, being a cop is far from the most dangerous profession.

By treating it as if it were, we justify all manners of abuses.  Which creates more mistrust.  Which creates more citizen resistance.  Which leads to more violent interactions.  I don't see how to stop that spiral.  Shit, I don't even see much interest in stopping it.

We need to start by no longer considering police "para-military."  The first time I saw a police squad referred to as a "paramilitary unit" (about 20 years ago), I remember being shocked by the term used to describe a force in my own city made up of my neighbors.   We now accept that as normal.  We even give them military weapons.  

Also, Maryland had a good start on this a few days ago. https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/547536-maryland-legislature-overrides-governors-veto-on-police-reform-bill

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Brisketexan

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2 minutes ago, HoustonFrog said:


Just not true. What they are trained to do is NOT let people walk away with warrants, especially if they resist arrest and there are multiple officers on scene. That’s like down the fairway part of their job, routine type stuff. They are also trained on the proper weapon to use, which in this case was correctly a taser. They are also trained to then actually fire the correct weapon, which was horrifically done incorrectly.

This officer should never hold a law enforcement job again, that’s an error that just can’t happen. But I don’t think she should be charged, maybe unlawful firing of a weapon or something.

If you’re going to charge her for murder on that, and continue to pay police $40-$60k, things are going to get worse not better. Applications from the smarter, better candidates are going to tank as the pay just isn’t worth the risk, both from harm and legal if you legitimately mess up.

You are referring to official training.  All of which is almost certainly correct.

But how are they trained CULTURALLY?  The rise of the "warrior cop" mentality is not a product of most official departmental manuals and processes.  Rather, it is the process of other "training," and the culture that is ingrained in the course of more mundane training -- self-defense training can be taught in an innocuous way, or in a way that makes you treat every human being as an immediate deadly threat who has the burden of proof to convince you NOT to use deadly force.  Same manual, utterly different result.

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lemonlime

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2 minutes ago, HoustonFrog said:


Just not true. What they are trained to do is NOT let people walk away with warrants, especially if they resist arrest and there are multiple officers on scene. That’s like down the fairway part of their job, routine type stuff. They are also trained on the proper weapon to use, which in this case was correctly a taser. They are also trained to then actually fire the correct weapon, which was horrifically done incorrectly.

This officer should never hold a law enforcement job again, that’s an error that just can’t happen. But I don’t think she should be charged, maybe unlawful firing of a weapon or something.

If you’re going to charge her for murder on that, and continue to pay police $40-$60k, things are going to get worse not better. Applications from the smarter, better candidates are going to tank as the pay just isn’t worth the risk, both from harm and legal if you legitimately mess up.

Average police salary in Minneapolis is $61,180, and that's not taking into account overtime, etc.  

But, yes, let's pay police more.  And also hold them responsible when they fuck up.  If they want to be treated like professionals, they need to act like professionals.

And she needs to be charged with manslaughter.  I'm not familiar with MN criminal code, and think murder may not apply.  But if you go to taze someone and don't make damn sure you're actually holding a tazer and not a gun, you need to be held responsible under the law.

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bluto

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Not an expert but it seems dim to try to arrest a person right in front of an open drivers door with a running engine. Very dim for the guy to think running made a lick of sense either, like he was going to flee the country.

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TexasHooch

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8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I think you're right.  I don't think that MOST of them are acting in a purposeful, predatory fashion.  Instead, I think they've been trained to not give a fuck about lives other than their own, and their "brother officers."  It is an exclusive club, of which we the people are not a member.

They're taught that they have the right and responsibility to their family to go home at the end of the shift, and that at any moment their life could threatened.  This is actually true, in my opinion, but the constant harping on it in the name of combating complacency goes too far.   As the video shows, this "bad shit can happen at any moment" message doesn't really eliminate complacency.  Instead, it often leads to a severe overreaction when something does go wrong. 

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ChickenSandwich

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1 minute ago, bluto said:

Not an expert but it seems dim to try to arrest a person right in front of an open drivers door with a running engine. Very dim for the guy to think running made a lick of sense either, like he was going to flee the country.

Cops were in the wrong but running/resisting exponentially increases the stakes for all involved and leads to bad consequences. 
 

At some point, some leader should point out the obvious. 

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HoustonFrog

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You are referring to official training.  All of which is almost certainly correct.
But how are they trained CULTURALLY?  The rise of the "warrior cop" mentality is not a product of most official departmental manuals and processes.  Rather, it is the process of other "training," and the culture that is ingrained in the course of more mundane training -- self-defense training can be taught in an innocuous way, or in a way that makes you treat every human being as an immediate deadly threat who has the burden of proof to convince you NOT to use deadly force.  Same manual, utterly different result.

I really don’t think this woman was trying to be a warrior officer. Clearly trying to use her non-lethal weapon and fucked up royally.

I don’t disagree that a better grasp of risk/reward could be used by officers on whether to escalate situations. Probably should have just let this guy head off once they botched the arrest and add a couple charges for when they eventually grab him later. But this is done the fairway part of the job at this point for officers.
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HoustonFrog

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Cops were in the wrong but running/resisting exponentially increases the stakes for all involved and leads to bad consequences. 
 
At some point, some leader should point out the obvious. 

Emphasis on exponentially. Don’t run/resist cops, immediately ask for your lawyer, don’t be heavily impaired in public. It’s like the golden trifecta of having the least issues possible.

But shooting someone instead of using a taser is also a mind numbingly terrible mistake
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XYZ

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So big fat guy in Brooklyn (or Queens) ends up dead because he was selling cigarettes on the street. Daniel Shaver ends up dead because he was brandishing a toy gun in his hotel room. Floyd ends up dead because he passed a fake $20 bill to somebody. And whoever this last poor sap was, because of expired plates. I guess I wish if criminals had to die that it would be more of the bank robbery or violent assault type and less of the selling cigarettes or doing absolutely nothing wrong type.

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Brisketexan

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4 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

They're taught that they have the right and responsibility to their family to go home at the end of the shift, and that at any moment their life could threatened.  This is actually true, in my opinion, but the constant harping on it in the name of combating complacency goes too far.   As the video shows, this "bad shit can happen at any moment" message doesn't really eliminate complacency.  Instead, it often leads to a severe overreaction when something does go wrong. 

This.  While I want police to be able to protect themselves, their priority should be to protect human life.  All of it.  Including the person they are interacting with who, as of that moment, has not been convicted of anything.  Maybe the person has a mental issue.  Maybe they're scared as shit because someone with a gun is barking at them.  Maybe they're a really bad guy intent on bad shit.  In cop world, all too often, all options except the last one are purged from the officer's mind.  And even in THAT option, no law in any jurisdiction allows a cop to kill someone "because  he was a bad guy."

3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Cops were in the wrong but running/resisting exponentially increases the stakes for all involved and leads to bad consequences. 
 

At some point, some leader should point out the obvious. 

Chris Rock did.  Plenty of minority leaders have.  Plenty of leaders of all stripes have.

Of course, in Arizona, it don't make a shit, you're dead anyway.  In Virginia, doing what everyone advises -- pulling over in a well-lit place -- don't make a shit.  Run, don't run.  Whether you live or die, suffer or not, depends on what a cop feels like doing in a given moment.  You have the burden of proving that you SHOULDN'T be killed.  And sometimes, you're even given the false choice -- do X, suffer consequences, don't do X, also suffer consequences.  No-win situations administered at the point of a gun, cloaked in the power of the State, are fucking bullshit.

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