daunte wright shooting

[Armybrat 40840]

12 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

Illness and motor vehicle accidents make up a big percentage.

Donuts?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

SIAP but I see the officer has resigned. I would bet anything that it's discovered that she's hired somewhere else in a short order.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

18 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

.05 per 10,000 “unarmed” black men killed by cops. 
.35/10,000 black men overall killed by cops. 
.073 per 10,000 white men killed by cops 

I made some assumptions and extrapolations on the white men. It might be more than that- but it doesn’t approach the number for black men. You can argue about why that is, but at no point in time is it particularly likely to happen. 
looks like cops get killed by people they interact with significantly more than they kill those people- and that’s the way it ought to be as they signed up for the job in a way a citizen didn’t, but it’s not a big number in any direction. 
when we talk about when will this stop and how can we solve this I don’t know that we can solve a 3/100k type situation. At a certain point having lots of people means you will have shit happen. 
I’m open to any solution that will solve it- that doesn’t throw the baby out with the bath water. 
I think completely disarming cops probably leads to more deaths than this in America but I’m not sure. I’d be ok maybe with trying it somewhere and seeing how it worked?  Or maybe 3 somewhere’s (urban, suburban and rural) and see if it’s worth exploring?  
 

Now do percentage of black men stopped by cops vs white.   You likely won’t find that statistic.   

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

33 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Well, I was raised in a military family on Army posts until high school, so you betcha I complied.

Moving to Austin as a “civilian” in 1959 was a heckuva culture shock to put it mildly.

I’d guess actually getting arrested for shit they let you go for might be a bit of a culture shock too.  

[TexasHooch 5122]

6 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

So- the 1.9 per 10,000 isn’t cops being killed by civilians only, it’s some of this and some of that?  So maybe I wasn’t way off that on how low cops getting killed in line of duty was. Because that number was higher than I suspected. 
thanks to you and @wildcat09

https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/causes-of-law-enforcement-deaths

You'll see that, in 2019, 53 officers were killed by assault.  The real number is likely a little higher than that because it's fair to conclude that a few of the "struck by vehicles" were purposeful.

This all very informative, but I'd be a little careful of going to the absolute conclusion of "See, being a cop isn't that dangerous".  I haven't seen any apples to apple numbers that detail "US jobs in which you're most likely to die by assault", but I suspect that law enforcement would be way up there.

 

[52-80 19154]

5 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Now do percentage of black men stopped by cops vs white.   You likely won’t find that statistic.   

https://dallaspolice.net/report/racialprofile

[TexasHooch 5122]

8 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Donuts?

Sure. And alcohol.  And suicide. 

[BabaYaga 15294]

17 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

For the average vehicle stop by a police officer, they should not have a gun on them. the weapon should be secured in the car. I'm ok with them taking the weapon if the situation calls for it, but there should be standards on those reasons, and not just because they're scared. Also each weapon grab needs to be recorded.

Of course as we realize in the George Floyd case, unarming the police won't prevent all homicides.

 

This is why they are always armed, regardless of "perceived" threats or not.

*tough to watch - New Mexico Officer Darian Jarrott. 2/4/21 Also shows HOW FAST A SITUATION CAN HAPPEN.

Not justifying what happened in MN, that was horrible with an officer that was not equipped to deal with the situation she was in.  

 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

7 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

https://dallaspolice.net/report/racialprofile

Thanks Dallas, for confirming the driving while black hypothesis.  

[Helobious 9448]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

This is why they are always armed, regardless of "perceived" threats or not.

*tough to watch - New Mexico Officer Darian Jarrott. 2/4/21 Also shows HOW FAST A SITUATION CAN HAPPEN.

Not justifying what happened in MN, that was horrible with an officer that was not equipped to deal with the situation she was in.  

 

I think if you want to argue that unarmed black men being killed by cops is a statistically insignificant problem, you’d have to do the same for incidents like this. Sure videos like this look tragic and scary, but they’re also rare when looked at in the context of total officer/civilian interactions. 

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

18 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Now do percentage of black men stopped by cops vs white.   You likely won’t find that statistic.   

Yeah. I can’t imagine that such a statistic would be kept nationally. If it’s much higher on black oriole being stopped then it would stand to reason that the percentage of black people killed would be higher if deaths per traffic stop have a steady rate to them. I think that probably explains some but not all of the gap, if I had to guess. 

[GopherRock 1765]

18 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

SIAP but I see the officer has resigned. I would bet anything that it's discovered that she's hired somewhere else in a short order.

Chief of police resigned shortly after that. 

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

16 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/causes-of-law-enforcement-deaths

You'll see that, in 2019, 53 officers were killed by assault.  The real number is likely a little higher than that because it's fair to conclude that a few of the "struck by vehicles" were purposeful.

This all very informative, but I'd be a little careful of going to the absolute conclusion of "See, being a cop isn't that dangerous".  I haven't seen any apples to apple numbers that detail "US jobs in which you're most likely to die by assault", but I suspect that law enforcement would be way up there.

 

Sure.  But dead is dead. Does it matter if it’s assault, being mauled by a bear, or falling off a power line?  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

Air fresheners, tinted windows, expired tags, broken tail light.  These are nuisance laws that give police the broad discretion to pull people over. And in many communities, those laws are often selectively enforced on minority communities. And they are a massive waste of society's time and resources.  Tags should be a parking violation, not a reason to pull someone over.   Tail lights are an inspection issue.   In a worse case scenario, here's how a tail light pull over should go:

"Listen, I pulled you over because you have a broken tail light.  Get that fixed so you don't get rear ended.  Please be safe driving home.  Good Day."

 

Ted Bundy was caught on a nuisance law.  So have plenty of other dangerous felons.  Not to mention drunk drivers.  They are an important law enforcement tool.  There needs to be a different attitude, better training, etc.  But I don't believe this at all.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You know what’s a real dangerous job?  truck driver. Nobody ever talks about them being hero’s. 
dangers a cop faces in their line of work are grossly overstated. It’s a shit job in a lot of ways I’m sure, but it’s not really all that dangerous and they are more than compensated financially for the amount of danger they willingly agree to take on. 

They certainly vastly overstate the dangerousness of their jobs -- the warrior cop martyr trope.  I am sure quite a few more are killed in auto or auto pedestrian accidents than by being shot.

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

5 minutes ago, Helobious said:

I think if you want to argue that unarmed black men being killed by cops is a statistically insignificant problem, you’d have to do the same for incidents like this. Sure videos like this look tragic and scary, but they’re also rare when looked at in the context of total officer/civilian interactions. 

Yep. The argument works the same. It’s actually stronger opposed to the cop bc there is a certain assumption of risk inherent in being a police officer that they are compensated for That doesn’t exist with being born black. 

[WhatTheBuck 28779]

20 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

The real number is likely a little higher than that because it's fair to conclude that a few of the "struck by vehicles" were purposeful.

And the priest said, “Don’t worry, I got him with the door.”

[Johnny Sack 8397]

41 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

in general im for less cop cruising, but seeing all the hoopties rolling coal, spewing smoke, not having lights on in rain, weaving through traffic, etc - fuck it some people should be pulled over.

we can do more speed cams like in europe but surly dont like that either. 

one time i had Houston PD park underneath a highway overpass, speedtrapping people who were taking the down-ramp exit.  caught me, and slapped on a no-front-plate ticket, and a rear-plate-obstruction ticket.... because i used a fucking official Longhorn license frameholder bought from the UT Coop.  fuck those cops entirely.  (tix  dismissed because they were a no-show in court.  pffft)

 

Probably that dickhead Matt Davis and his crew of thieves.

[Bateshorn 9927]

27 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Ted Bundy was caught on a nuisance law.  So have plenty of other dangerous felons.  Not to mention drunk drivers.  They are an important law enforcement tool.  There needs to be a different attitude, better training, etc.  But I don't believe this at all.

They are also the fig leaf the Supreme Court has agreed to that allows aggressive policing of black communities in a way that doesn't "violate" the 4th amendment.   The founders clearly wrote the amendment to avoid the type of laughable "I had cause" searches that police routinely execute.  If police applied the law evenly, I could be convinced of your argument. But they clearly don't.  I've had Mardi Gras bead necklaces hanging from my mirror for virtually my entire adult life, driven on expired tags, and found out from mechanics I've had busted tail lights.  I can count on this zero the number of times I've had an interaction with law enforcement over it.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Bateshorn

[Carl Spackler 3482]

3 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

And yet.....Most localities have moved to no high speed pursuit policies (aka restrictive pursuit policy), which indicates they have a nuanced view of evasion.  The appropriate move here if he was going to flee without evidence of an immediate criminal threat was to let him go, and execute a warrant at different and safer time.

But there was already a warrant out for the guy.  If the policies and procedures in Brooklyn Park are anything similar to the ones I've reviewed from other LEO agencies, the cops involved in this incident likely had little or no discretion under the circumstances.  They had him detained, they learned there was a warrant for him -- at that point, policies typically require an arrest.  

[atomheartbevo 89659]

53 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

SIAP but I see the officer has resigned. I would bet anything that it's discovered that she's hired somewhere else in a short order.

Resigning is better than being fired on a resume.

Police chief resigned as well.  She was a cop for nearly 30 years, and at one point headed up her police union.  The cynic in me wonders if they were trying to protect their pensions, or start their pensions, or whatever.

If we want to rein in bad cops, putting aside the union issues, start firing the cops involved, including any cops who stood by and did nothing, and make sure they don't get a law enforcement job elsewhere.  When it looks systemic, fire the immediate supervisor(s) and the police chief.  Put the mayor/city council/whoever on notice that their elected careers are over unless they fix shit.

They like to compare themselves to the military, but in the military if you fuck up royally and get "fired" (dishonorably discharged), you don't to go to another branch of the military, and that shit will haunt you for the rest of your life.

[Bateshorn 9927]

2 minutes ago, Carl Spackler said:

But there was already a warrant out for the guy.  If the policies and procedures in Brooklyn Park are anything similar to the ones I've reviewed from other LEO agencies, the cops involved in this incident likely had little or no discretion under the circumstances.  They had him detained, they learned there was a warrant for him -- at that point, policies typically require an arrest.  

I'm not arguing the mandatory detainment, I'm saying once he jumped back in his car or was aggressively moving to do so, would it have made more sense to simply back off and let him leave until he could be detained at a residence?  That's where the discretion comes in.

[BabaYaga 15294]

4 minutes ago, Helobious said:

I think if you want to argue that unarmed black men being killed by cops is a statistically insignificant problem, you’d have to do the same for incidents like this. Sure videos like this look tragic and scary, but they’re also rare when looked at in the context of total officer/civilian interactions. 

They are not mutually exclusive.  There also many videos lie this one with shots fired without a fatality.  The point being rather that there is no such thing as a "routine" traffic stop.  Same with domestic dispute calls - both of which are the leading causes of LE casualties.  

[Carl Spackler 3482]

41 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

This is why they are always armed, regardless of "perceived" threats or not.

*tough to watch - New Mexico Officer Darian Jarrott. 2/4/21 Also shows HOW FAST A SITUATION CAN HAPPEN.

Not justifying what happened in MN, that was horrible with an officer that was not equipped to deal with the situation she was in.  

 

Interesting sidenote to that tragic incident is that the decedent's widow is apparently getting ready to sue, claiming that Homeland Security and other entities were aware that the perp was traveling armed and with drugs.  (The two guys who come to the aid of the downed officer toward the end of the video were apparently Homeland Security agents who were monitoring the perp.)  Widow is claiming her husband was assisting HS, which asked husband/decedent to pull over the perp but didn't tell him of the risks, didn't tell him perp was almost certainly armed, etc.  Just a tragic incident all around . . . well, except for the part where the perp subsequently got killed by Las Cruces PD.  End of sidenote/derailing.

[BabaYaga 15294]

5 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I'm not arguing the mandatory detainment, I'm saying once he jumped back in his car or was aggressively moving to do so, would it have made more sense to simply back off and let him leave until he could be detained at a residence?  That's where the discretion comes in.

They are not allowed to let them leave.  Same issues with the man who fought off three officers, made his way back to his car and was supposed to be reaching for a weapon or trying to flee the scene.

Not that easy.  LE has requirements to detain and NOT allow anyone with a warrant after the initial engagement to just "leave"

[Carl Spackler 3482]

5 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I'm not arguing the mandatory detainment, I'm saying once he jumped back in his car or was aggressively moving to do so, would it have made more sense to simply back off and let him leave until he could be detained at a residence?  That's where the discretion comes in.

Maybe.  OTOH, if the warrant stemmed from failing to appear on a weapons charge (which is what I've read elsewhere) it might be problematic to back off at that point.  Not sure how much the female cop knew at the time, i.e., whether she only knew there was a warrant for the guy or if she knew additional details that might make immediate arrest a priority.    

Related to this topic is the issue of whether it would have even been appropriate to deploy the taser if the female cop had actually pulled the correct weapon.  The guy was getting behind the wheel of a vehicle.  Taser policies vary from entity to entity, but I've got to think that most of them prohibit or discourage deploying the taser when the target may be able to take off in a speeding hunk of metal.  An incapacitated driver in a moving vehicle is not a good thing.   

Just a bad, bad incident all around.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

23 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

They are also the fig leaf the Supreme Court has agreed to that allows aggressive policing of black communities in a way that doesn't "violate" the 4th amendment.   The founders clearly wrote the amendment to avoid the type of laughable "I had cause" searches that police routinely execute.  If police applied the law evenly, I could be convinced of your argument. But they clearly don't.  I've had Mardi Gras bead necklaces hanging from my mirror for virtually my entire adult life, driven on expired tags, and found out from mechanics I've had busted tail lights.  I can count on this zero the number of times I've had an interaction with law enforcement over it.

I have been pulled over multiple times for those type of infractions.  Anyone who saltwater fishes much can expect their boat trailer lights to malfunction pretty regularly.  The pretext on that is they want to see if you have been drinking.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

54 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

This is why they are always armed, regardless of "perceived" threats or not.

*tough to watch - New Mexico Officer Darian Jarrott. 2/4/21 Also shows HOW FAST A SITUATION CAN HAPPEN.

Not justifying what happened in MN, that was horrible with an officer that was not equipped to deal with the situation she was in.  

 

This example means nothing. I understand that police stops can be dangerous situations. 100% But look at this scenario, the cop was armed and that didn't prevent this from occurring. It's also possible knowing the cop was armed led this guy to act in this manner.

Could an unarmed officer be killed at a traffic stop? Yes. Can an armed officer be killed at a traffic stop? Your video demonstrates yes he can. The armed officer does nothing but potentially escalate it. It's not his fault but an officer CAN escalate a situation.

Don't get me wrong. If the license plate or drivers license check shows the driver to potentially be dangerous, I have no problem with the officer being armed. But instead they approach every citizen encounter as prepared to be deadly. I think that approach can lead to that. Perhaps only in 1 out of 100,000 encounters. 

[52-80 19154]

48 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Thanks Dallas, for confirming the driving while black hypothesis.  

You saw this in the 2nd section?

Quote

The Dallas Police Department focuses the majority of its proactive enforcement in areas called TAAGs (Targeted Area Action Grids). These 31 small areas were identified solely by the number of crimes occurring. While representing only about 8% of the geographic area of the city, TAAGs accounted for about 36% of the overall crime in 2020. These areas are populated with mostly minority populations. The more resources that target these areas, the more the traffic contact data will overrepresent minority populations.

Police deployment were overweight in areas more populated with minorities, on the grounds of recorded crimes. 

Now you can argue:

(1) whether we should deploy more cops to where there were historically more crimes

(2) more cops -> more incidents recorded (???) -> more cops deployed?  (possible positive feedback loop, but less defensible argument than #1)

 

Some more things to point out:

(3) the Race-based traffic Contacts % is compared versus OVERALL Dallas demographic %, NOT the areas where cops were deployed. 

(4) a large gender-based discrepancy.  are cops prejudiced against stopping males?  OR is that representative of driving tendencies?  (we can infer driving behavior vs gender from insurance data....)

(5) they noted higher % of verbal warnings / fewer citations given to blacks vs other ethnicities.  is this due to (a) more false stops to blacks or (b) more leniency towards black? (or both?)

(6) want to comment on the causes and incidence rates for the vehicular searches?  and rates of contraband found?  does it support that any particular race is more unduly searched, and/or the contraband does not match search rate?

 

[huge 3793]

Also say they just let him "leave" and he speeds off and runs over your grandmother?  Lots of what ifs either way.

It should have never come to any of it if the officers would have handled the situation properly.

[52-80 19154]

51 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Probably that dickhead Matt Davis and his crew of thieves.

there were 4 of them parked there.  and they had already stopped other cars before me (didnt see it before going down the crest/ramp).  later i learned its a favorite camping spot of theirs, in the nice shade, nabbing people shedding speed from the freeway, exiting downhill.  ticket cashing cockbags.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

9 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

there were 4 of them parked there.  and they had already stopped other cars before me (didnt see it before going down the crest/ramp).  later i learned its a favorite camping spot of theirs, in the nice shade, nabbing people shedding speed from the freeway, exiting downhill.  ticket cashing cockbags.

He ran a 4 man crew of thieves.  Would right thousands of tickets a month, putting 2-4 officers on them so they would each get overtime for testifying.  Then they would show up, sign in around 7:30 am to start the overtime clock, and go work off duty traffic control or security jobs while on the clock.  They would come back during the lunch break and tell the prosecutors they did not recall the facts if any of the tickets they wrote did not settle with someone plea bargaining so it would be dismissed.  I know this because it went on for years and was well known -- I was told about it and witnessed it in person when I participated in the volunteer prosecutor program at the Houston muni court.

Here is Davis:

 

And an article about him and his crew of thieves.  The finally were caught in 2012.  They had been doing it for years when I was a volunteer prosecutor back in 2004 as a baby lawyer.  No telling how many millions they stole.  They deserved a RICO case if I have ever seen one and prison.  They got like 30 day suspensions.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Four-suspended-HPD-officers-used-ticket-scheme-to-3877815.php

Edited April 13, 2021 by Johnny Sack

[BabaYaga 15294]

7 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

This example means nothing. I understand that police stops can be dangerous situations. 100% But look at this scenario, the cop was armed and that didn't prevent this from occurring. It's also possible knowing the cop was armed led this guy to act in this manner.

Could an unarmed officer be killed at a traffic stop? Yes. Can an armed officer be killed at a traffic stop? Your video demonstrates yes he can. The armed officer does nothing but potentially escalate it. It's not his fault but an officer CAN escalate a situation.

Don't get me wrong. If the license plate or drivers license check shows the driver to potentially be dangerous, I have no problem with the officer being armed. But instead they approach every citizen encounter as prepared to be deadly. I think that approach can lead to that. Perhaps only in 1 out of 100,000 encounters. 

This is just a big word salad.  Could it?  Would it?  Will it?  Did it?  To say his weapon didn't save him is being completely disingenuous.  This was an execution.  It's a big chasm between this and grandma on the way to church getting stopped.  The point being there are innumerable "close call" videos of officers getting shot at, having weapons pulled on them on stops, etc. that they approach every one with extreme caution.

Personally, with my truck, I roll all four windows down so the officer has a clear line of sight to me and any others in the car.  I'm not "yes sir, no sir", but I am polite and professional.  For the express reason I know they are unaware of who I am and what threat I may or might not pose.  I also understand if I had a warrant and fled the scene or was a perceived physical threat to the officer, shit may go sideways fast.  

I also understand implicit bias.  I was helping a friend remodel a house in south dallas.  Not a good area.  I got pulled over.  White guy in a minority neighborhood, cop wanted to know if I was buying/selling drugs.  Bullshit stop.  Still, kept my cool, got out of the vehicle, gave them permission to search (not that it mattered), and kept my shit in check and bit my tongue.  It was also my last trip down there either.  Down near 175/I35.  Fun place....

[4th&Five 41537]

 

[52-80 19154]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

He ran a 4 man crew of thieves.  Would right thousands of tickets a month, putting 2-4 officers on them so they would each get overtime for testifying.  Then they would show up, sign in around 7:30 am to start the overtime clock, and go work off duty traffic control or security jobs while on the clock.  They would come back during the lunch break and tell the prosecutors they did not recall the facts if any of the tickets they wrote did not settle with someone plea bargaining so it would be dismissed.  I know this because it went on for years and was well known -- I was told about it and witnessed it in person when I participated in the volunteer prosecutor program at the Houston muni court.

Here is Davis:

 

And an article about him and his crew of thieves.  The finally were caught in 2012.  They had been doing it for years when I was a volunteer prosecutor back in 2004 as a baby lawyer.  No telling how many millions they stole.  They deserved a RICO case if I have ever seen one and prison.  They got like 30 day suspensions.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Four-suspended-HPD-officers-used-ticket-scheme-to-3877815.php

the timeline sounds about right.  that should be a clawback from their pension too.

[GopherRock 1765]

 

 

[Bateshorn 9927]

49 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

They are not allowed to let them leave.  Same issues with the man who fought off three officers, made his way back to his car and was supposed to be reaching for a weapon or trying to flee the scene.

Not that easy.  LE has requirements to detain and NOT allow anyone with a warrant after the initial engagement to just "leave"

Well, I find that deeply problematic 

[BrazilHorn 6599]

Saw this pic on Reddit and it is true.

[BabaYaga 15294]

9 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Well, I find that deeply problematic 

What happens if they were detained by the police, flee the scene, and kill a family of four in their car on the way to adopt orphans.  Tongue in cheek obviously, but you get the point.  It's evading police.  Not going to go well in any country on earth.  I can't think of any nation that after stopping you, validating you have a warrant for your arrest, you then try to flee the scene, that they just let you go?  Popping off with a pistol, that's the issue.  

[BabaYaga 15294]

4 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

Saw this pic on Reddit and it is true.

Seems an argument being made for more LE training.  And yes, we live in a world where federal and local officers have rights normal citizens do not.  

Gun in your face and you are a CHL carrier and it's another civilian - in criminal court, may be a righteous shoot (of course civil is still fair game).

Gun in your face and you are a CHL carrier (or not) and it's a cop......you better keep that pistol holstered.  

[BrazilHorn 6599]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Seems an argument being made for more LE training.  And yes, we live in a world where federal and local officers have rights normal citizens do not.  

Gun in your face and you are a CHL carrier and it's another civilian - in criminal court, may be a righteous shoot (of course civil is still fair game).

Gun in your face and you are a CHL carrier (or not) and it's a cop......you better keep that pistol holstered.  

I think it is more that the police chief excused the shooting as being a mistake and it was from a 26 year vet who led training classes etc and she still made an error due to being hopped up on adrenaline when the suspect wasn't even threatening the cops, but rather just trying to get away. Yet police expect total compliance from people when they are waving a gun in their face and screaming at them (at times contradictory orders (see traffic stop of black military officer))

Maybe it is more training, maybe it is removing ALL police shooting cases (or any death resulting from cops) from local prosecution and turn to state/feds and make police pension funds pay out settlements.

 

[Bateshorn 9927]

11 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

What happens if they were detained by the police, flee the scene, and kill a family of four in their car on the way to adopt orphans.  Tongue in cheek obviously, but you get the point.  It's evading police.  Not going to go well in any country on earth.  I can't think of any nation that after stopping you, validating you have a warrant for your arrest, you then try to flee the scene, that they just let you go?  Popping off with a pistol, that's the issue.  

I’m not a big fan of wishes/buts..candy/nuts forecasting as a policy driver.  

I get your point, but we have an epidemic of police violence in this country that so outstrips virtually all first AND second world nations that our detention and warrant policies are clearly deeply flawed. 

[BabaYaga 15294]

3 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

I think it is more that the police chief excused the shooting as being a mistake and it was from a 26 year vet who led training classes etc and she still made an error due to being hopped up on adrenaline when the suspect wasn't even threatening the cops, but rather just trying to get away. Yet police expect total compliance from people when they are waving a gun in their face and screaming at them (at times contradictory orders (see traffic stop of black military officer))

Maybe it is more training, maybe it is removing ALL police shooting cases (or any death resulting from cops) from local prosecution and turn to state/feds and make police pension funds pay out settlements.

 

All this....AND, maybe don't try to flee the scene if you have an outstanding warrant. When exactly did this become ok?

[BabaYaga 15294]

1 minute ago, Bateshorn said:

I’m not a big fan of wishes/buts..candy/nuts forecasting as a policy driver.  

I get your point, but we have an epidemic of police violence in this country that so outstrips virtually all first AND second world nations that our detention and warrant policies are clearly deeply flawed. 

All true, but fleeing the scene and evading an arresting officer parameters are not exactly new either?

And if we are being intellectually honest, LE violence is WAY down when looking at historical levels.  It might vary a little up or down YOY, but decade over decade, the trend lines are clear.  

[BrazilHorn 6599]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

All this....AND, maybe don't try to flee the scene if you have an outstanding warrant. When exactly did this become ok?

By no means did he make right decisions. I get the cops were in tough spot and tasing him would have been completely appropriate. Making a mistake and killing him due to holding your pistol vs taser isn't. The taser weighs like 8oz and typical handgun 5x that at least. She should have known the difference.

[BabaYaga 15294]

2 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

By no means did he make right decisions. I get the cops were in tough spot and tasing him would have been completely appropriate. Making a mistake and killing him due to holding your pistol vs taser isn't. The taser weighs like 8oz and typical handgun 5x that at least. She should have known the difference.

100%, which gets up back to training and resources.  It's negligent to send officers armed as they are out into society with the basic levels of training  that they do.  

[BrazilHorn 6599]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

100%, which gets up back to training and resources.  It's negligent to send officers armed as they are out into society with the basic levels of training  that they do.  

Perhaps at macro level - but this cop was a 26 year vet and Chauvin roughly 19 years. I don't see for either of them that training is the issue. I think there is a broader cultural issue at core of police departments vs simply training. It is the "us vs them" and the blue wall of silence that pervades police departments where coming forth against bad cops is viewed as being a traitor that is the bigger issue than training.

[Nivek 16928]

3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Didn't say they were highly trained.  Said they are as selective as the Norwegian police.  In post above - I said NYPD was specifically not a cherry pick, as its a notoriously far from a clean reputation.

They may be selective, but they certainly are not selecting the right candidates. 

[Serak The Preparer 3431]

2 hours ago, TexasHooch said:

https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/causes-of-law-enforcement-deaths

You'll see that, in 2019, 53 officers were killed by assault.  The real number is likely a little higher than that because it's fair to conclude that a few of the "struck by vehicles" were purposeful.

This all very informative, but I'd be a little careful of going to the absolute conclusion of "See, being a cop isn't that dangerous".  I haven't seen any apples to apple numbers that detail "US jobs in which you're most likely to die by assault", but I suspect that law enforcement would be way up there.

 

Why do we need to make that distinction? I think death is pretty apple to apple. If a roofer falls off a ladder and dies, the eulogy doesn't start with "At least he wasn't assaulted."

[BabaYaga 15294]

13 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

Perhaps at macro level - but this cop was a 26 year vet and Chauvin roughly 19 years. I don't see for either of them that training is the issue. I think there is a broader cultural issue at core of police departments vs simply training. It is the "us vs them" and the blue wall of silence that pervades police departments where coming forth against bad cops is viewed as being a traitor that is the bigger issue than training.

To this point, there needs to be mechanisms to eject bad faith actors.  I hope most know this, but the VAST majority of cases investigated by stations that have internal affairs officers are reported by other officers. Problem is, more than 80% of all precincts have less than 25 officers.  They are small offices with limited resources and are tasked with too much.  Most would welcome "social workers" or crap like that to handle DD calls, etc.  But where are those resources coming from?

And to the point about training vs tenure - do you know the yearly firearm requirements?  It's a joke.  Most LE's fire less than 50 rounds A YEAR in required training.  They need real, situational training, or hands on training so they don't freak when they get into a physical altercations (like BJJ), not just boxes checked.  How many fat ass cops have you seen?  It's amazing that they are still given a badge.