daunte wright shooting

[BabaYaga 15296]

2 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Why do we need to make that distinction? I think death is pretty apple to apple. If a roofer falls off a ladder and dies, the eulogy doesn't start with "At least he wasn't assaulted."

Let's leave COVID out of this...................

 

 

 

 

 

 

ducks and runs.....

[Nivek 16928]

3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

NYPD is simply the bigggest, most prominent force, and thus the easiest to draw numbers from.  And not exactly without history of accusations so not a cherry-picked example.  If anyone has better numbers, we're all ears.

By god will I never insist the US police force are white-gloved squeaky-clean - fuck no.  My stance is the "American police" situation --- the "warrior cop mentality" is a reflexive dynamic, representative of a high rate of crime.  It is baffling how some keep pointing finger at 1 side of this equation, while reaching for comparisons to Norway.... and (from your link) to Iceland and Finland. 

Norway has a population that is twice of the city of Chicago.  It had 30 homicides last year, the highest in a decade.  Chicago hosts 60+ a month.  A typical Norwegian police - how often do you think they encounter someone mentally deranged?  with a weapon?  actively evading? how many patrols do they have to do through gang turfs? Literally what passes for police television in Norway are purse snatchers on mopeds leading a police chase through a city park.  In that context, how often would you think they would EVER need to use a gun?

 

 

The warrior cop mentality came about well after crime decreased.   It is not a reaction to it.    The article I linked above included an example of police taking down a armed mentally unstable person who was indiscriminately firing a gun.  The cops there managed to not shoot him or anyone else.

 

[Gatorubet 30237]

All this....AND, maybe don't try to flee the scene if you have an outstanding warrant. When exactly did this become ok?

Has nothing to do with improper use of deadly force. That situation is both common and foreseeable.

[HoustonFrog 368]

Saw this pic on Reddit and it is true.

Perhaps I’m just different than everyone else, but my first reaction when confronted with a police presence and/or a gun in my face is to say nothing, don’t move and do whatever they want. It’s certainly not resisting arrest, trying to jump in the open door of a car and play Grand Theft Auto. I just don’t really understand.

[Brisketexan 105126]

3 minutes ago, HoustonFrog said:

Perhaps I’m just different than everyone else, but my first reaction when confronted with a police presence and/or a gun in my face is to say nothing, don’t move and do whatever they want. It’s certainly not resisting arrest, trying to jump in the open door of a car and play Grand Theft Auto. I just don’t really understand.

As for me, I agree.

But I also know that with WARRIOR COPS, GET FUCKED, HOORAH, it don't make a shit.  Daniel Shaver tried to not move and do whatever the cops wanted....but officer "Get Fucked" made sure he got fucked to death.  Lt. Nazario had his hands up and out, was given conflicting orders, and got pepper sprayed, knee-popped, and cuffed.

The rules are simple. Don't do what the cops tell you, and you might get hurt or dead.  Do what the cops tell you, and you might get hurt or dead.  That's fucking bullshit.

And you're goddamned right I hold the cops to a higher standard than the criminals -- if the cops want to compare their behavior to that of criminals, then they can damned well be subject to all the same laws, no immunity.  The cops work for ME.  Damned straight I hold them to a higher standard than criminals.

[BabaYaga 15296]

Just now, HoustonFrog said:

Perhaps I’m just different than everyone else, but my first reaction when confronted with a police presence and/or a gun in my face is to say nothing, don’t move and do whatever they want. It’s certainly not resisting arrest, trying to jump in the open door of a car and play Grand Theft Auto. I just don’t really understand.

Same?  If I had a warrant, and got pulled over, I'm shitting bricks, sure....but to just bolt?  

[52-80 19155]

31 minutes ago, Nivek said:

They may be selective, but they certainly are not selecting the right candidates. 

you could say that.  and i wouldnt disgagree with you in net.  (norwegian police have more younger, attractive, female officers). 

my point is, you multiple the norwegian force to 700k officers, deploy them all across the US, and in 5 years you're gonna see: more dead officers, more armed officers, and a convergence / mean-reversion to the same count and frequency of incidences that we have today.  it's a 2 sided problem. 

[52-80 19155]

you picked the juiciest example of them all...

20 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Daniel Shaver tried to not move and do whatever the cops wanted....but officer "Get Fucked" made sure he got fucked to death. 

and used it to form this conclusion:

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The rules are simple. Don't do what the cops tell you, and you might get hurt or dead.  Do what the cops tell you, and you might get hurt or dead.  That's fucking bullshit.

how representative is that example for you?  do you suppose that incident is 1 of 5 a year? 1 of 10?  1 of 100?  1 of 1000?  1 of 10000?

you are condemning an officer and a shooting that this website universally condemns.  we haven't been this unified this much since tom herman got fired.  the initial daniel shaver thread is on surlybevo.com or whatever the fuck that website was.  read every post there for yourself. 

 

its a blood-curdling murder and the guy was a POS.  why though would you choose to paint 700,000 people with his sins? 

22 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

f the cops want to compare their behavior to that of criminals, then they can damned well be subject to all the same laws, no immunity.

an argument that has been and remains uncontested.

[Nicole44 22059]

At least she is being charged. 
 

Sources tell 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS the Washington County Attorney's Office is planning on charging former Brooklyn Center police officer Kim Potter on Wednesday.

The case was sent to the Washington County Attorney's Office to avoid a conflict of interest with the Hennepin County Attorney's Office, which works closely with Brooklyn Center Police on criminal cases. The extent of the charges will be learned tomorrow. 

[Brisketexan 105126]

6 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

you are condemning an officer and a shooting that this website universally condemns.  we haven't been this unified this much since tom herman got fired.  the initial daniel shaver thread is on surlybevo.com or whatever the fuck that website was.  read every post there for yourself. 

Yet he was protected by the system, and the situation was manipulated to let him keep his pension.  The absolute contempt that PDs have for the people they supposedly serve is laughably over the top.  Hell, after the "oops, I murdered you when I meant to tase you" event we're discussing in this very thread....the PD's reaction was to defiantly fly the blue line flag.

So, you know who doesn't "universally condemn" this shit?  Cops.  That's the problem.  Seriously, 95% of what is at issue in all of these threads comes back to that simple fact.  Why do I paint 700k with his sins?  Because when these sins happen, they make sure that the sinner gets a pension, that their "we're special" flag flies, etc.  If the 700k and the institutions that they built stood on the right side of these issues, we'd be much better off.  But they don't.

They treat us with complete contempt and disdain.  They don't get to ask me for my support.  Treat me as an enemy, and I'll take you at your word.

[TexasHooch 5122]

37 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Why do we need to make that distinction? I think death is pretty apple to apple. If a roofer falls off a ladder and dies, the eulogy doesn't start with "At least he wasn't assaulted."

Yet several of us, myself included, have been quick devalue the purported danger of working in law enforcement by pointing out that most of their on-the-job deaths are not related to people trying to hurt them.

It's not a hill that I care to die on, but it just occurs to me that maybe it's at least worth acknowledging that the emotional dynamics and cumulative effects of dealing with the dangers of logs, power equipment, vehicles, electricity etc. are not the same as the emotional dynamics and cumulative effects of dealing with the dangers of people in escalated situations.  It's a different kind of stress.

None of this excuses anything of course, but for me it does help understand it a little more.

[52-80 19155]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yet he was protected by the system, and the situation was manipulated to let him keep his pension.  The absolute contempt that PDs have for the people they supposedly serve is laughably over the top. 

Everyone complicit in that shit needs to be behind bars.  No doubt.

 

Now we're getting into some much less obvious, gray area stuff.  Car pulled over in routine "traffic stop".  Driver immediately flees (no attempt to attack officers).  Cops recognized driver has guns (during the stop???).  Short foot pursuit.  Gun is produced by driver (at 3:33 in frame).  Driver shot.

How should this have gone - in everyones opinion?

[Captainant 27661]

13 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

the emotional dynamics and cumulative effects of dealing with the dangers of people in escalated situations.  It's a different kind of stress.

The vast majority of national-news police brutality is touched off by cops being the escalating force, not the soon-to-be victim. Cops routinely escalate as a means to control the people they interact with, because the majority of the time it works and it's easier than actually giving a shit. The times it doesn't work, it ends in violence because cops rarely de-escalate. 

[Brisketexan 105126]

10 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Everyone complicit in that shit needs to be behind bars.  No doubt.

But they won't be.  Ever.  That's the point.  That's why this is utterly broken.

We can sit around here and agree on that.  I love singing Kumbaya, delightful camp tune.  But until the cops are ACTUALLY held responsible -- either by themselves, or by having it forced on them -- we're just twirling our dicks here.

Everything we talk about is meaningless unless and until cops are held responsible, on an institutional level.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Brisketexan

[TexasHooch 5122]

 

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

The vast majority of national-news police brutality is touched off by cops being the escalating force, not the soon-to-be victim. Cops routinely escalate as a means to control the people they interact with, because the majority of the time it works and it's easier than actually giving a shit. The times it doesn't work, it ends in violence because cops rarely de-escalate. 

The vast majority of national-news police brutality represents the vast minority of police interactions with citizens.  I disagree with almost every opinion you just stated as fact, but frankly I'm just not in the mood to defend them right now.  The bad cops (whether they represent the majority or minority of them) are fucking up my city.

[52-80 19155]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But they won't be.  Ever.  That's the point.  That's why this is utterly broken.

...

Everything we talk about is meaningless unless and until cops are held responsible, on an institutional level.

AH okay.  The Mesa Police department reinstated him and gave him his pension.  Let's indict every other Police department in country.

Or something else specifically broke?  Which system?  What about the Maricopa County Superior Court?  or the jury that found him not guilty?  Or is it the lawyer that defended him successfully in court? 

You're a lawyer.  Can we say your industry is an utter sham, and everything we talk about is meaningless unless lawyers are held responsible, on an institutional level?

[VABuckeye 2472]

I'm a little tired of Norway comparisons.

Quote

Gun ownership is restricted in Norway, unless one has officially documented a use for the gun. By far the most common grounds for civilian ownership are hunting and sports shooting, in that order.

It's not like that is the US.  It's just a terrible comparison.  The US is the most armed country in the world.  I am NOT defending the police but there is an inherent risk every time they answer a call or pull a car over.

[Brisketexan 105126]

Just now, 52-80 said:

AH okay.  The Mesa Police department reinstated him and gave him his pension.  Let's indict every other Police department in country.

We can walk through them.  The LA County Sheriff's dept has actual gangs operating in it.  The dept in Minnesota this week flew a blue line flag in open defiance right after one of their cops mistakenly murdered a guy.  HPD had a long-standing narcotics unit that flat-out lied about having confidential informants to raid wherever they wanted whenever they wanted, and a shitload of the cops knew it.   And we could go on, and on, and on.  I don't have all day, but come on.

These PDs aren't exceptions.

[52-80 19155]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

We can walk through them.  The LA County Sheriff's dept has actual gangs operating in it.  The dept in Minnesota this week flew a blue line flag in open defiance right after one of their cops mistakenly murdered a guy.  HPD had a long-standing narcotics unit that flat-out lied about having confidential informants to raid wherever they wanted whenever they wanted, and a shitload of the cops knew it.   And we could go on, and on, and on.  I don't have all day, but come on.

These PDs aren't exceptions.

Well we definitely can't come up with more than 1 attorney who put innocent people in death row, or helped  murderers stay out of jail (Shaver-Brailford's attorney), or who have been disbarred due to misconduct. 

It's just the 1.  So we can't crucify your industry.  All PDs are baddies.

[Carl Spackler 3482]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

The warrior cop mentality came about well after crime decreased.   

 

The warrior cop mentality has existed in this country for centuries.  But it certainly is one of the problematic factors that has contributed to the problem of unarmed civilians being killed by law enforcement.     

[Brisketexan 105126]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Well we definitely can't come up with more than 1 attorney who put innocent people in death row, or helped  murderers stay out of jail (Shaver-Brailford's attorney), or who have been disbarred due to misconduct. 

It's just the 1.  So we can't crucify your industry.  All PDs are baddies.

If you want to do the contrast, we can do that exercise.  When you get to the near universal condemnation not just from the pubic, but from the profession itself, that's where we start to diverge.  When you realize that we don't have a union that is dedicated solely to covering for bad actors -- instead, the bar regularly issues discipline, including disbarment, which is aside and apart from any criminal sanction that might follow, we diverge some more.  We can have a whole  other thread on this.  I can even point out to you plenty of cases where I think our professional enforcement against bad actors has fallen short.

How about we look at the Michael Morton Act as one big example.  A DA did some bad shit, resulted in Michael Morton doing time he shouldn't have done.  In response to that, the former DA faced consequences, and functionally THE ENTIRE TEXAS LEGAL PROFESSION pushed for an actual legislative reform to prevent that from happening again.  Instead of circling the wagons and defending and protecting the bad actor, the profession 1) took action against him, and 2) led the charge at implementing reforms to keep it from happening again.

I said it before -- I don't expect any profession to be perfect.  What I do expect is for it to actually hold its bad actors accountable.  And even then, I know that the institutions themselves won't be perfect in holding them accountable.  So, maybe what I'm looking for is simply that the culture of an institution lean greater than 50% towards "hold bad actors accountable" instead of leaning more towards "fuck you, we protect our own, it's the code that trumps everything else."  

[Sandman 3403]

5 minutes ago, Carl Spackler said:

The warrior cop mentality has existed in this country for centuries.  But it certainly is one of the problematic factors that has contributed to the problem of unarmed civilians being killed by law enforcement.     

I've always looked at the warrior cop thing as something started by ex-military guys that no longer wanted to deal with the discipline of the military but still wanted to have a job where they got to carry a gun and didn't have to sit at a desk. No one really watching you all day, no real work metric to be calculated. 

I think we need fewer or zero vets in our police departments. Train people from the ground up, not rehash military training that might not apply to community policing.

[Brisketexan 105126]

12 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I've always looked at the warrior cop thing as something started by ex-military guys that no longer wanted to deal with the discipline of the military but still wanted to have a job where they got to carry a gun and didn't have to sit at a desk. No one really watching you all day, no real work metric to be calculated. 

I think we need fewer or zero vets in our police departments. Train people from the ground up, not rehash military training that might not apply to community policing.

I used to think this...but it sure seems that the most "hoorah GIT SOME!" types are toy soldiers -- guys who never served, but have ordered every type of "tactical" gear they can find on Amazon.  Actual vets are used to rules of engagement that in many cases were more restrictive than what cops can do to citizens here.

[Sandman 3403]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I used to think this...but it sure seems that the most "hoorah GIT SOME!" types are toy soldiers -- guys who never served, but have ordered every type of "tactical" gear they can find on Amazon.  Actual vets are used to rules of engagement that in many cases were more restrictive than what cops can do to citizens here.

Maybe vets that did more than one contract. I saw several 2-4 year vets during my time in LE that had what we called "John Wayne syndrome". My dad that did 26 years on active duty? Or my BIL that did 22? You'd never know it unless they told you. 

[Brisketexan 105126]

Just now, Sandman said:

Maybe vets that did more than one contract. I saw several 2-4 year vets during my time in LE that had what we called "John Wayne syndrome". My dad that did 26 years on active duty? Or my BIL that did 22? You'd never know it unless they told you. 

Appreciate that insight.  Hadn't thought about the short timers versus longer term vets.  That makes sense.

[atomheartbevo 89659]

2 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

I get your point, but we have an epidemic of police violence in this country that so outstrips virtually all first AND second world nations that our detention and warrant policies are clearly deeply flawed. 

Yeah, something is really fucked up that we outstrip so many other countries when it comes to this stuff.  We should be setting the standard thanks to our Constitution and years of resisting/loathing authority.  Nope. It’s a lot of Wild West bullshit.  

[atomheartbevo 89659]

2 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

And if we are being intellectually honest, LE violence is WAY down when looking at historical levels.  It might vary a little up or down YOY, but decade over decade, the trend lines are clear.  

I wonder about this.  How much violence by LEOs against folks in say the 1960s and earlier, was properly documented? And what about against minorities for that matter?  How many people were too afraid to file a complaint, because they knew the LEO and his buddies would harass their family?

This shit looks really bad because average people can document it and get it spread around.   

[InkaUtexas 25924]

just asked my father about this. 30+ years in Combat arms, then when he retired went and was a volunteer deputy. Boring stuff, but he dealt with LE for a long a few years. He has an interesting perspective that the warrior mentality started with the advent of cops. Guys on TV wanted to look cool as the show progressed, etc. Look at some old episodes vs. the later years and their is definitely a change to how the officers respond on the show. 

And yes, agree about there could be some former military issues. Hell, anyone who dealt with MP's as kids know what dicks they could be. 

Not saying this is true, but thought it was an interesting insight from someone who spent time in both elements. 

[atomheartbevo 89659]

58 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

I'm a little tired of Norway comparisons.

It's not like that is the US.  It's just a terrible comparison.  The US is the most armed country in the world.  I am NOT defending the police but there is an inherent risk every time they answer a call or pull a car over.

You would think cops in the US would want to avoid escalating situations precisely because we are a heavily armed country.  And the American public is starting to document cops more and more   

Rapidly and deliberately escalating a traffic stop or a call or whatever is 100% guaranteed to ramp up the fight-or-flight response in anybody.  

[Sandman 3403]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

Guys on TV wanted to look cool

I can't tell you how much this changed things. We wore ugly brown slacks and tan shirts when I started. Then the sheriff changed over to black BDU trousers and blouses/polos. Guys loved the "tactical look", and I was just as guilty of that. Sleeves rolled just right, boots bloused tight, black ballcap down low on your head.

Maybe it wasn't intentional, but after that uniform change, they definitely advertised for the type of employee they got. 

[J.R. Juniors Junior Jr. 1084]

Watching some people marching on CNN. It's snowing right now.  Is that normal?

[TexasHooch 5122]

Not normal, but certainly not unheard of.  Spring here is nuts.  The grass it's snowing on is as green as it can be and the temp was pushing 80 a few days ago.

[staboner 4969]

hey guys hows it going?

ah another one of these. tell you what. imma need 5 of these per week for at least the next 3 months before i believe i can care. all need to be on flim perfectly too. i can't have any doubt about it and then lets talk. 

[Buzzrock 14920]

Time to repost this

[Buzzrock 14920]

When hyperbole goes over the top and becomes dangerous the natural reaction is to introduce facts to the conversation. Reduces emotion and allows for a real conversation as opposed to a pre-determined narrative. 

Except that there is science to support that the opposite actually happens. Look up Belief Perseverance and Backfire Effect.

[Bateshorn 9927]

2 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

just asked my father about this. 30+ years in Combat arms, then when he retired went and was a volunteer deputy. Boring stuff, but he dealt with LE for a long a few years. He has an interesting perspective that the warrior mentality started with the advent of cops. Guys on TV wanted to look cool as the show progressed, etc. Look at some old episodes vs. the later years and their is definitely a change to how the officers respond on the show. 

And yes, agree about there could be some former military issues. Hell, anyone who dealt with MP's as kids know what dicks they could be. 

Not saying this is true, but thought it was an interesting insight from someone who spent time in both elements. 

csb alert:  when i lived in NoVa, the guy renting upstairs was on his pentagon rotation with the special forces command.  This is pre 9/11 when it was still a relatively small part of the military.  He and I were talking about movies/tv vs reality and he was just talking about the differences.  This is a guy who ran the shooting houses at Bragg back in the day. 

He eventually started taking about cops and the way they are trained to shoot, and his main take away was: they aren’t. Cops never really learn how to handle weapons and all live action they do is down range target practice, which is mostly useless in real world situations. He said Cops with a drawn weapon is insanely dangerous, they don’t know how to use them, and often see them as the solution to virtually every situation. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Bateshorn

[dcar00 14182]

4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

AH okay.  The Mesa Police department reinstated him and gave him his pension.  Let's indict every other Police department in country.

Or something else specifically broke?  Which system?  What about the Maricopa County Superior Court?  or the jury that found him not guilty?  Or is it the lawyer that defended him successfully in court? 

You're a lawyer.  Can we say your industry is an utter sham, and everything we talk about is meaningless unless lawyers are held responsible, on an institutional level?

do govt lawyers have qualified immunity?

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

13 hours ago, dcar00 said:

it might have if they were trained with particular color.  reading more it looks like they have yellow versions, say to put it on non dominant hand side, etc.  

but do agree it looks like she was overwhelmed and never should have pulled anything.  since the guy had a weapons situation on his record, I can also see that they think he potentially going for something inside the vehicle.  sucks because it appears that they were 2 seconds from getting the cuffs on the guy.

The problem is she pulled her gun as she approached the car right as dude made a break for it. When she later changed her mind to use the taser she already had the gun in her hand and didn't recognize what she had already done. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Catdaddyhorn

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

8 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

All this....AND, maybe don't try to flee the scene if you have an outstanding warrant. When exactly did this become ok?

He panicked. 

[Carl Spackler 3482]

1 hour ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

The problem is she pulled her gun as she approached the car right as dude made a break for it. When she later changed her mind to use the taser she already had the gun in her hand and didn't recognize what she had already done. 

I don't think so.  She didn't have anything in her hands as she approached the car.  In the video, she reached out with both hands toward the suspect to try and help the other officer keep him detained.  So she definitely didn't have anything in her hands when she approached the vehicle and the suspect.  She briefly puts both hands on the subject, but doesn't get any kind of grip or hold.  The subject then breaks away and reenters the vehicle.  At that point, the female officer goes around the other officer so that she's now on his left side, and she makes a verbal reference to "taser" immediately before her sidearm appears in her right hand in the body cam video.

I believe she was thinking taser but mistakenly drew the firearm.  

[52-80 19155]

police responded to 911 call.  completely innocuous, non-antagonistic encounter.  no gung ho attitude. 

 

then, in a single second, knife comes out, guy goes goes towards cop in enclosed space.  cops fired 2 shots.  non-lethal.

 

this sort of justified stuff is more representative of the actual incidents.  but of course it gets rolled up into another OIS and the narrative 'omg look how many times police shoot ppl'

 

 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Watching some people marching on CNN. It's snowing right now.  Is that normal?

Snow in “mid” April so not unheard of...but it’ll melt the first day or two that’s above 40 degrees


Probably doing the state a huge solid opposed to it being 70 and sunny in terms of the numbers for rioters, protesters Etc who would otherwise be showing up. Our BLM chapter takes the winters off up here

[Brothahorn 10087]

19 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

Air fresheners, tinted windows, expired tags, broken tail light.  These are nuisance laws that give police the broad discretion to pull people over. And in many communities, those laws are often selectively enforced on minority communities. And they are a massive waste of society's time and resources.  Tags should be a parking violation, not a reason to pull someone over.   Tail lights are an inspection issue.   In a worse case scenario, here's how a tail light pull over should go:

"Listen, I pulled you over because you have a broken tail light.  Get that fixed so you don't get rear ended.  Please be safe driving home.  Good Day."

 

Agreed. Unless there is a safety issue(driving at night with no lights), there should be no need for a traffic stop. Motorcycles only have one light and it's not an issue. If you're paying attention, you can figure out what the vehicle in front is doing even if they only have one brake light. They should definitely stop writing tickets, because a lot of those tickets become warrants which just makes the rabbit hole deeper.

[Nivek 16928]

you could say that.  and i wouldnt disgagree with you in net.  (norwegian police have more younger, attractive, female officers). 
my point is, you multiple the norwegian force to 700k officers, deploy them all across the US, and in 5 years you're gonna see: more dead officers, more armed officers, and a convergence / mean-reversion to the same count and frequency of incidences that we have today.  it's a 2 sided problem. 

We would also have fewer dead citizens, fewer dead criminals, and possibly fewer arrests for stupid shit, and a more professional police force. Heck, they may even be looked up to again.

I am fine with armed police if they know the firearm is the last resort, and have to call in permission to discharge one. I recognize there are circumstances that would warrant it. I am pro disarming them given the current culture. Just like a toddler that keeps hitting his sister with a toy sword, if he cannot use it properly he cannot keep it.

I also know that I could have given the Lt. a warning and a get out of jail free card for me not seeing his license plate.

As callous as this sounds, I am fine with more dead police. Their job is not to have zero danger or to push all the risk and casualties onto the public. We invest in body armor, training, and allow them to run surveillance to help mitigate harm to them. Heck the reason we all suffer from spoofing phone calls and spammers is to law enforcement can do it.

I also don’t think better educated, better people would tolerate the abuses of their fellow officers as much. I seriously doubt the “you’re fucked” gun holding cop who murdered the man in the hallway, never showed signs of being unhinged prior to that incident. Heck, the writing on his AR15 seemed like a red flag.

[BabaYaga 15296]

19 minutes ago, Nivek said:

and have to call in permission to discharge one

lol, wat?

[Nivek 16928]

csb alert:  when i lived in NoVa, the guy renting upstairs was on his pentagon rotation with the special forces command.  This is pre 9/11 when it was still a relatively small part of the military.  He and I were talking about movies/tv vs reality and he was just talking about the differences.  This is a guy who ran the shooting houses at Bragg back in the day. 
He eventually started taking about cops and the way they are trained to shoot, and his main take away was: they aren’t. Cops never really learn how to handle weapons and all live action they do is down range target practice, which is mostly useless in real world situations. He said Cops with a drawn weapon is insanely dangerous, they don’t know how to use them, and often see them as the solution to virtually every situation. 

They don’t have fake towns with targets and non targets popping up like in Police Academy?

[BabaYaga 15296]

1 hour ago, Brothahorn said:

Agreed. Unless there is a safety issue(driving at night with no lights), there should be no need for a traffic stop. Motorcycles only have one light and it's not an issue. If you're paying attention, you can figure out what the vehicle in front is doing even if they only have one brake light. They should definitely stop writing tickets, because a lot of those tickets become warrants which just makes the rabbit hole deeper.

So, effectively, we just get rid of speed limits.  How many people die currently on the roads each year?  This is supposed to make things better?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

So, effectively, we just get rid of speed limits.  How many people die currently on the roads each year?  This is supposed to make things better?

For the handful of police shooting unarmed people after a traffic stop we get a year we should stop enforcing all traffic laws....I mean if it saves one life, right?

Again, Ted Bundy was caught due to this type of policing.  So are plenty of dangerous criminals every year.

[BabaYaga 15296]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

For the handful of police shooting unarmed people after a traffic stop we get a year we should stop enforcing all traffic laws....I mean if it saves one life, right?

Again, Ted Bundy was caught due to this type of policing.  So are plenty of dangerous criminals every year.

Yeah, that makes zero sense to me?  In CA they are not enforcing shoplifting up to a certain dollar amount, thus creating a massive perverse incentive for people to just walk into stores, take items that are under that dollar amount, and they just walk out.  It's utter madness and business owners are screaming to no avail that they cannot continue to operate in such a climate.

[Nivek 16928]

He panicked. 

As I mentioned up thread, I was walking in the park at night. Headlights appeared right behind me and I was about to run/dive out of the way. The cops were fast, and as I turned my head around I saw the guns and doors open and stopped. My heart was pumping and I didn’t hear the “Police, Don’t Move” command as loud as it night have been.

Multiple things were happening. Adrenaline hit me, because I was in fear of a car running me down. Then guns. Then cops. I was 16 years old. I do not know what would have happened if I dove out if the way of a car driving in the park.

Adrenaline fucks with your perception. The first deer I took was full of helium. It was 12 feet tall when I shot. And barely legal when I harvested.

People have a variety of psychological make-up. My oldest boy might freak out an run. My youngest would call them Poopy-butts. My oldest might have been killed in that situation and people would be blaming him for having a twitchy brain/nervous system. Not the police for fucking shooting an unarmed kid.