daunte wright shooting

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,512]

7 hours ago, Carl Spackler said:

I don't think so.  She didn't have anything in her hands as she approached the car.  In the video, she reached out with both hands toward the suspect to try and help the other officer keep him detained.  So she definitely didn't have anything in her hands when she approached the vehicle and the suspect.  She briefly puts both hands on the subject, but doesn't get any kind of grip or hold.  The subject then breaks away and reenters the vehicle.  At that point, the female officer goes around the other officer so that she's now on his left side, and she makes a verbal reference to "taser" immediately before her sidearm appears in her right hand in the body cam video.

I believe she was thinking taser but mistakenly drew the firearm.  

The last thing I'm doing is apologizing or excusing the officer in this situation, but well-trained people often make seemingly stupid mistakes. If you watch some of those plane crash TV series, you regularly see pilots with 1,000s of hours of experience making simple mistakes because of all of the information coming at them fast and they hit a mental block in processing it correctly. Many times they override the computer that is giving them correct info but they can't believe it's true.

I imagine that the adrenaline is rushing when a police officer is making the decision to taze someone. It's probably all reaction and not stopping to think is the item in my hand heavier than a taser?

In hindsight, it's probably a bad idea to have officers carrying multiple weapons at the same time. 

[Bateshorn 9,927]

10 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

For the handful of police shooting unarmed people after a traffic stop we get a year we should stop enforcing all traffic laws....I mean if it saves one life, right?

Again, Ted Bundy was caught due to this type of policing.  So are plenty of dangerous criminals every year.

And Philando Castile was executed for a traffic stop for an ID check, no traffic violation at all. We can whataboutism all day. 

 

Brothahorn’s larger point that the traffic violation system is overly punitive and often the gateway for folks living on the edge into the criminal justice system. Catch a ticket for a broken taillight, miss a court date because of a car problem or a missed bus, or having to choose between work or court, catch an outstanding warrant, and never get out of an endless cycle into hell.  

 

[BabaYaga 15,296]

11 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Adrenaline fucks with your perception. The first deer I took was full of helium. It was 12 feet tall when I shot. And barely legal when I harvested.

People have a variety of psychological make-up. My oldest boy might freak out an run

You just articulated perfectly the gap in training LEO's have today.  They have MINIMAL fitness and firearm training.  The vast majority of training is administrative.  What they really need is stress inoculation and situational training.  They need to be put into real life situations and taught how to react.  

I'm not trying to draw a military comparison, but this is how they train them to deal with the speed and adrenalin dump of these types of situations.  They learn how to "slow down" and make decisions in the heat of moment.  That is a critical, transferable skill that LEOs need so they don't panic, especially when someone puts hands on them.  Some type of BJJ-esc training to learn how NOT to freak out when you are being grabbed, or find yourself on the ground, etc. and you immediately go for the gun as a last resort.

[BabaYaga 15,296]

14 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Brothahorn’s larger point that the traffic violation system is overly punitive and often the gateway for folks living on the edge into the criminal justice system. Catch a ticket for a broken taillight, miss a court date because of a car problem or a missed bus, or having to choose between work or court, catch an outstanding warrant, and never get out of an endless cycle into hell.  

 

Point taken, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water and just STOP enforcing laws because you THINK it will help a certain demographic

[Poe It Up 126]

Yeah, no. I don’t care if you’re an angel or a piece of shit, get your car in working order for God’s sake. It’s part of being an adult. I got pulled over for the first time in about 15 years last week because I had a taillight out and I actually appreciated him letting me know. 

[Brothahorn 10,087]

47 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

So, effectively, we just get rid of speed limits.  How many people die currently on the roads each year?  This is supposed to make things better?

How do you get eliminating speed limits out of getting rid of nuisance stops for brake lights, expired tags, tinted windows, etc.? There is a difference between safety laws and bs laws. Is an expired tag going to affect road safety? C'mon now.

 

Quote

Point taken, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water and just STOP enforcing laws because you THINK it will help a certain demographic

Didn't say a certain demographic, the rule should apply to all.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Brothahorn

[El Diablo 4,232]

16 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Yet he was protected by the system, and the situation was manipulated to let him keep his pension.  The absolute contempt that PDs have for the people they supposedly serve is laughably over the top.  Hell, after the "oops, I murdered you when I meant to tase you" event we're discussing in this very thread....the PD's reaction was to defiantly fly the blue line flag.

So, you know who doesn't "universally condemn" this shit?  Cops.  That's the problem.  Seriously, 95% of what is at issue in all of these threads comes back to that simple fact.  Why do I paint 700k with his sins?  Because when these sins happen, they make sure that the sinner gets a pension, that their "we're special" flag flies, etc.  If the 700k and the institutions that they built stood on the right side of these issues, we'd be much better off.  But they don't.

They treat us with complete contempt and disdain.  They don't get to ask me for my support.  Treat me as an enemy, and I'll take you at your word.

That's unions. Only difference with this union is they're carrying guns literally rather than unions figuratively holding guns to the heads of their bosses.

[dcar00 14,182]

9 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

He panicked. 

yep. he was wanted on a aggravated armed robbery warrant.

[Captainant 27,664]

9 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

You just articulated perfectly the gap in training LEO's have today.  They have MINIMAL fitness and firearm training.  The vast majority of training is administrative.  What they really need is stress inoculation and situational training.  They need to be put into real life situations and taught how to react.  

I'm not trying to draw a military comparison, but this is how they train them to deal with the speed and adrenalin dump of these types of situations.  They learn how to "slow down" and make decisions in the heat of moment.  That is a critical, transferable skill that LEOs need so they don't panic, especially when someone puts hands on them.  Some type of BJJ-esc training to learn how NOT to freak out when you are being grabbed, or find yourself on the ground, etc. and you immediately go for the gun as a last resort.

It was posted just last page, but it's been shown through data that improved training does not decrease police use of force. There was zero correlation between improved/increased training and improved cop behavior. It's only when cops actually face the possibility of consequences that they change their behavior. And as a second layer past that, failure to remove bad cops only makes the rest of them worse (something about one bad apple spoiling the bunch....).

Obligatory repost of the twitter thread that collates all this nicely:

 

 

[BabaYaga 15,296]

3 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

How do you get eliminating speed limits out of getting rid of nuisance stops for brake lights, expired tags, tinted windows, etc.? There is a difference between safety laws and bs laws. Is an expired tag going to affect road safety? C'mon now.

So then we get rid of the need for tags, tints, all that?  Either way, you are effectively creating the environment where none of these matter anymore, right?  As for speeding, the vast majority of people drive the speed limit because of the perceived punitive actions taken if they do get a ticket.  That implied threat is real.  I'd think that it's easy to identify people screaming by at 100+mph being a "threat", but what about everyone else taking it upon themselves to basically ignore these limits and all the other things drivers have to account for?

[Brisketexan 105,127]

12 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Point taken, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water and just STOP enforcing laws because you THINK it will help a certain demographic

Then you missed brotha's post and point.  Continue to enforce genuine safety-related traffic laws.  But you have to realize that so many of our traffic laws simply create pretexts for stops and encounters with citizens.

9 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

Yeah, no. I don’t care if you’re an angel or a piece of shit, get your car in working order for God’s sake. It’s part of being an adult. I got pulled over for the first time in about 15 years last week because I had a taillight out and I actually appreciated him letting me know. 

Cool, cool.  When it comes to simple violations like a taillight that's out, or an air freshener hanging, which demographics do you think get pulled over for those more, vs. which demographics get the benefit of the doubt?

If the cops pull over everyone who commits any vehicular violation, then (while it's a tremendous waste of resources and a major hassle, because you violate traffic laws probably 20 times a day in some minor way) it's at least spread around.  But when they let the car in the nice part of town go by with the busted taillight, but pull over the car driven by a minority on the east side, then we're already skewing the "encounters with law enforcement" number up for minorities.

6 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

How do you get eliminating speed limits out of getting rid of nuisance stops for brake lights, expired tags, tinted windows, etc.? There is a difference between safety laws and bs laws. Is an expired tag going to affect road safety? C'mon now.

This.  And nevermind the additional layer of how layers of punitive fines and difficult to attend court dates spiral and result in a poor person losing their license or car, and thus their ability to work and earn a living.  

[BabaYaga 15,296]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

It was posted just last page, but it's been shown through data that improved training does not decrease police use of force. There was zero correlation between improved/increased training and improved cop behavior. It's only when cops actually face the possibility of consequences that they change their behavior. And as a second layer past that, failure to remove bad cops only makes the rest of them worse (something about one bad apple spoiling the bunch....).

Obligatory repost of the twitter thread that collates all this nicely:

 

 

Your own article cites body cam usage as a deterrent.  The "training" most of those guys went through, as stated earlier, was administrative in nature.

That's the whole point - it's a disingenuous argument to lump all training types together, then fall back on your confirmation that "it doesn't work".  We know it works.  We see it work with every advanced military group across the globe.  We know it works because the Secret Service mandates it for all their agents.  Same with FBI special agents.  They are put into real-life, situational training to learn how to become comfortable in high stress, face paced scenarios and not react negatively.

We know situational shooting, for example.  I know personally the difference between firing a mandated 50 rounds on a static range, vs being put into stressful, dynamic shooting situations (Thunder Ranch) and how you become a blubbering, shaking idiot.  

*and no, I'm again not advocating for militarization of the LEOs.  Just the hands on, situational training they, and various state departments use to better prepare their agents.

[BabaYaga 15,296]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But you have to realize that so many of our traffic laws simply create pretexts for stops and encounters with citizens.

Then change the laws.  You don't move to selective enforcement.  

[Brisketexan 105,127]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

Then change the laws.  You don't move to selective enforcement.  

Oh....the irony.

The point discussed just below that is that we already HAVE selective enforcement (and really, we have to -- there's no way the cops could actually enforce against every violation they see -- every driver 1 mph over the speed limit, every driver who makes an illegal lane change, follows too closely, has a malfunctioning signal light, has an air freshener hanging, etc. etc.).  So, the pick and choose who to pull over.  And that often means that they let the white guy drive by, while they pull over the minority.

When the laws create pretexts for stops, that sets the stage for selective enforcement, and that "selection" is rarely going to be in favor of the unfavored classes.

[Dahobbs 17,534]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Then change the laws.  You don't move to selective enforcement.  

(1) I think that is exactly what they are suggesting. (2) It isn't about selective enforcement, but manner of enforcement. Most of those things (tags and shit) could be more effectively controlled by mailing a ticket. There is no reason to stop anyone at all. 

[Brothahorn 10,087]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

So then we get rid of the need for tags, tints, all that?  Either way, you are effectively creating the environment where none of these matter anymore, right?  As for speeding, the vast majority of people drive the speed limit because of the perceived punitive actions taken if they do get a ticket.  That implied threat is real.  I'd think that it's easy to identify people screaming by at 100+mph being a "threat", but what about everyone else taking it upon themselves to basically ignore these limits and all the other things drivers have to account for?

Now we're just going in circles. Bates post that I quoted was very clear about nuisance laws. I know you understand the difference between car doing 100mph in a 45 and that same car with tinted windows going the speed limit. Which one is a safety issue? The fact that the car with tinted windows can get pulled over simply for that is ridiculous. It's also a waste of time and money. 

 

So yeah we need to do away with some of the ridiculous reasons cops are allowed to stop ALL citizens.

[Captainant 27,664]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Your own article cites body cam usage as a deterrent.  The "training" most of those guys went through, as stated earlier, was administrative in nature.

The first link of the thread talks about body cams yes, but the rest of the 10+ post thread touches on training and has links to good data analysis projects that have good visualizations and analysis comparing data on police use of force, oversight mechanisms, training, and union contract terms. Please actually read the whole thing before you find the first thing you can use to dismiss someone else's viewpoint. Or don't, this is DT on surly afterall.

[Dahobbs 17,534]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

Again, Ted Bundy was caught due to this type of policing.  So are plenty of dangerous criminals every year.

If the the cops randomly arrested anyone they encountered, they would also catch actual violent criminals in the process. But I don't think that is particularly compelling argument for that method of law enforcement. 

[Poe It Up 126]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Then you missed brotha's post and point.  Continue to enforce genuine safety-related traffic laws.  But you have to realize that so many of our traffic laws simply create pretexts for stops and encounters with citizens.

Cool, cool.  When it comes to simple violations like a taillight that's out, or an air freshener hanging, which demographics do you think get pulled over for those more, vs. which demographics get the benefit of the doubt?

If the cops pull over everyone who commits any vehicular violation, then (while it's a tremendous waste of resources and a major hassle, because you violate traffic laws probably 20 times a day in some minor way) it's at least spread around.  But when they let the car in the nice part of town go by with the busted taillight, but pull over the car driven by a minority on the east side, then we're already skewing the "encounters with law enforcement" number up for minorities.

This.  And nevermind the additional layer of how layers of punitive fines and difficult to attend court dates spiral and result in a poor person losing their license or car, and thus their ability to work and earn a living.  

I guess I was one of those unlucky whites you hear about getting pulled over. I’ve always been more of an air freshener under the seat kind of guy anyway, so I’m in the clear there. I deserved to be pulled over, and if you commit a violation, you do too. Welcome to adulthood, it sucks sometimes. 

[dcar00 14,182]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

Cool, cool.  When it comes to simple violations like a taillight that's out, or an air freshener hanging, which demographics do you think get pulled over for those more, vs. which demographics get the benefit of the doubt?

 

ha. about 3 years ago my son's taillight was out on his truck.  he had air freshener hanging.  I took the truck to the parts store and on the way back got pulled over for the taillight but I am sure the air freshener had something to do with it.  I showed him the receipt and the light I had just bought and he let me off.  of course I didn't have a warrant.

TLDR people who put air fresheners hanging from the rearview mirror are idiots(yes I told my son he was an idiot).

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,512]

27 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

Yeah, no. I don’t care if you’re an angel or a piece of shit, get your car in working order for God’s sake. It’s part of being an adult. I got pulled over for the first time in about 15 years last week because I had a taillight out and I actually appreciated him letting me know. 

Agree. I realize that many people do not have the knowledge or desire to fix it themselves but you have to get it fixed. And if cops are pulling over minorities more for the items, then how can we work with minority communities to solve the problem of their cars not being "road worthy". I get that police can always find an excuse to pull someone over for DWB but don't give them easy reasons which cover their behavior in court. 

When I realize that one of the safety items is broken (Headlight, taillight, etc) is out, that is a priority to fix. It's never a good time to get pulled over. I'm actually behind on getting my registration sticker up to date. I think we've had a grace period due to covid but I've been getting emails from the state to correct it. I plan to get the ball rolling on that this week.

 

[BabaYaga 15,296]

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

The first link of the thread talks about body cams yes, but the rest of the 10+ post thread touches on training and has links to good data analysis projects that have good visualizations and analysis comparing data on police use of force, oversight mechanisms, training, and union contract terms. Please actually read the whole thing before you find the first thing you can use to dismiss someone else's viewpoint. Or don't, this is DT on surly afterall.

Again, I know many officers that went through the training.  It was mostly administrative and did NOTHING to prepare officers on how to react to high stress, frenetic scenarios.  

[Brisketexan 105,127]

1 minute ago, Poe It Up said:

I guess I was one of those unlucky whites you hear about getting pulled over. I’ve always been more of an air freshener under the seat kind of guy anyway, so I’m in the clear there. I deserved to be pulled over, and if you commit a violation, you do too. Welcome to adulthood, it sucks sometimes. 

Cool, cool.  Nobody here is saying that white guys don't get pulled over for piddly shit.  Just like we've said over and over, the issue of police abuses is not strictly a minority one -- it's just that it's more acute for minorities.  The issue is the rate and frequency.

[BabaYaga 15,296]

9 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Now we're just going in circles. Bates post that I quoted was very clear about nuisance laws. I know you understand the difference between car doing 100mph in a 45 and that same car with tinted windows going the speed limit. Which one is a safety issue? The fact that the car with tinted windows can get pulled over simply for that is ridiculous. It's also a waste of time and money. 

 

So yeah we need to do away with some of the ridiculous reasons cops are allowed to stop ALL citizens.

Agreed, the laws need to change.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

17 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Your own article cites body cam usage as a deterrent.  The "training" most of those guys went through, as stated earlier, was administrative in nature.

That's the whole point - it's a disingenuous argument to lump all training types together, then fall back on your confirmation that "it doesn't work".  We know it works.  We see it work with every advanced military group across the globe.  We know it works because the Secret Service mandates it for all their agents.  Same with FBI special agents.  They are put into real-life, situational training to learn how to become comfortable in high stress, face paced scenarios and not react negatively.

We know situational shooting, for example.  I know personally the difference between firing a mandated 50 rounds on a static range, vs being put into stressful, dynamic shooting situations (Thunder Ranch) and how you become a blubbering, shaking idiot.  

*and no, I'm again not advocating for militarization of the LEOs.  Just the hands on, situational training they, and various state departments use to better prepare their agents.

A friend of mine dragged me to one of those shooting schools.  Where you shoot in high stress situations with both hands, reload with one hand -- basic combat shooting.  (Of course no one is attacking you or shooting back).  It was taught by a retired Navy Seal Master Chief.  I think we shot 2000 rounds in two days.  It was exhausting.  I tell you what, it significantly improved my pistol shooting.  The Seal was out of this world good.

[Brisketexan 105,127]

2 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Agree. I realize that many people do not have the knowledge or desire to fix it themselves but you have to get it fixed. And if cops are pulling over minorities more for the items, then how can we work with minority communities to solve the problem of their cars not being "road worthy". I get that police can always find an excuse to pull someone over for DWB but don't give them easy reasons which cover their behavior in court. 

When I realize that one of the safety items is broken (Headlight, taillight, etc) is out, that is a priority to fix. It's never a good time to get pulled over. I'm actually behind on getting my registration sticker up to date. I think we've had a grace period due to covid but I've been getting emails from the state to correct it. I plan to get the ball rolling on that this week.

 

Step back and be realistic.  I drove to the office this morning.  I bet I committed 5 or more technical infractions while doing so (didn't signal a lane change on the freeway, followed someone too closely, stopped with the nose of my car touching the crosswalk, what have you).  We ALL are valid moving targets every time we get in our car.  I remember a cop telling me once years ago that he could follow anyone for 90 seconds and they would absolutely commit some infraction that he could pull them over for, even if they were trying hard not to.  And in my observation, it's true.

So, KNOWING that every person on the road can be pulled over at any given time.....it might be best if we gave the police fewer excuses to do so.  It would be best for all of us.  But it would be even better for the people who are more frequent targets of pretextual stops.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

Maybe do not pull people over for non-safety issues.  Maybe do add more automatic license plate readers to pull over those with active warrants or stolen vehicles.

[BabaYaga 15,296]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

A friend of mine dragged me to one of those shooting schools.  Where you shoot in high stress situations with both hands, reload with one hand -- basic combat shooting.  (Of course no one is attacking you or shooting back).  It was taught by a retired Navy Seal Master Chief.  I think we shot 2000 rounds in two days.  It was exhausting.  I tell you what, it significantly improved my pistol shooting.  The Seal was out of this world good.

There's more than shooting.  Secret Service agents rarely clear their holsters, so their training is completely different, but 100% situational.  That is what officers need more of, specifically so they DON'T resort to the weapon, especially if someone puts their hands on you (which cause a vast majority of officers from all backgrounds to freak)

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

There's more than shooting.  Secret Service agents rarely clear their holsters, so their training is completely different, but 100% situational.  That is what officers need more of, specifically so they DON'T resort to the weapon, especially if someone puts their hands on you (which cause a vast majority of officers from all backgrounds to freak)

Yeah, I don't think proficiency is some huge issue.  But according to professionals I have spoken to, a whole lot of cops cannot shoot for shit because they maybe fire 50 rounds a year.  Good shooters shoot a lot, even if it is just dry firing.  I like shooting, so I shoot a lot.  Right now with ammo scarcity, I just dry fire.  I doubt I would even use a pistol in self defense unless it was when I am driving my truck, because I am grabbing a shotgun in a home intruder situation.

I just really enjoy shooting a pistol.  Even my old smith and wesson .22 LR.  I love plinking with it.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Johnny Sack

[Poe It Up 126]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool, cool.  Nobody here is saying that white guys don't get pulled over for piddly shit.  Just like we've said over and over, the issue of police abuses is not strictly a minority one -- it's just that it's more acute for minorities.  The issue is the rate and frequency.

I get it. I wasn’t really making a racial point to be clear, just that I don’t have any sympathy for an adult that gets pulled over for committing a violation. 

[Captainant 27,664]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

Yeah, I don't think proficiency is some huge issue.  But according to professionals I have spoken to, a whole lot of cops cannot shoot for shit because they maybe fire 50 rounds a year.  Good shooters shoot a lot, even if it is just dry firing.  I like shooting, so I shoot a lot.  Right now with ammo, I just dry fire.  I doubt I would even use a pistol in self defense unless it was when I am driving my truck, because I am grabbing a shotgun in a home intruder situation.

Shit, most yokels at any local IDPA meet will shoot miles better than a cop and be much more comfortable and safe with their firearms than an average cop. 

The issue isn't the police's ability to use or exercise force, it's their judgement on when it is necessary - not merely excusable.

[BabaYaga 15,296]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

50 rounds a year

That's exactly right - the minimum yearly proficiency is a box of ammo, fired on a static, well lit range, with a resting heart rate.  It's nonsense.  Nor are there really any YOY fitness requirements, so you get some out of shape cop trying to manage a situation after a huge adrenalin dump who is not proficient with his sidearm.  So they panic, and go right for the gun.  

[Murfdogg21 4,412]

Maybe they should just bullhorn at you for tail lights out, etc. types of pull overs without anyone getting out of the car. “HELLO CITIZEN! YOUR RIGHT TAIL LIGHT IS BURNT OUT. YOUR PLATE NUMBER HAS BEEN ENTERED IN THE SYSTEM. YOU WILL GET A TICKET NEXT TIME!”

[Nivek 16,928]

yep. he was wanted on a aggravated armed robbery warrant.

And they didnt pick him up earlier. And that doesn’t really mean shit. According to the police in Houston, the Tuttles were cop killing dope dealers until they weren’t.

[BabaYaga 15,296]

6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Shit, most yokels at any local IDPA meet will shoot miles better than a cop and be much more comfortable and safe with their firearms than an average cop. 

The issue isn't the police's ability to use or exercise force, it's their judgement on when it is necessary - not merely excusable.

That's everyone's point.  They need to be better trained on the situational aspects so their first default isn't to clear their holster.  They go right to the nuclear option because it's all they know. 

A guy I roll with if good friends with a Dallas officer who is also into BJJ.  Dude has not pulled his gun in YEARS and has had hands placed on him dozens of times.  Guess what...he's used to it.  He understands intent, leverage, hand placement, and he doesn't panic when it happens.  He's been trying to teach other officers that he has seen first hand pull their weapons when "accosted".  He was there, de-escalated, and tried to get these guys to roll with him and learn not to freak out when it happens and how to subdue someone so that they are not a threat to you, or themselves.  

Edited April 14, 2021 by BabaYaga

[Nivek 16,928]

It was posted just last page, but it's been shown through data that improved training does not decrease police use of force. There was zero correlation between improved/increased training and improved cop behavior. It's only when cops actually face the possibility of consequences that they change their behavior. And as a second layer past that, failure to remove bad cops only makes the rest of them worse (something about one bad apple spoiling the bunch....).
Obligatory repost of the twitter thread that collates all this nicely:
 
 

Baba Yaga pointed out the type of training might have an impact. The current system is broken.

[wildcat09 29,354]

16 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Well we definitely can't come up with more than 1 attorney who put innocent people in death row, or helped  murderers stay out of jail (Shaver-Brailford's attorney), or who have been disbarred due to misconduct. 

It's just the 1.  So we can't crucify your industry.  All PDs are baddies.

I'm a lawyer and I'm more than happy to say that all prosecutors are bastards.

[52-80 19,155]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm a lawyer and I'm more than happy to say that all prosecutors are bastards.

 

[dcar00 14,182]

12 minutes ago, Nivek said:

And they didnt pick him up earlier. And that doesn’t really mean shit. According to the police in Houston, the Tuttles were cop killing dope dealers until they weren’t.

not sure what you are saying here.  I  am saying why he panicked.

[UT_OB1 2,221]

People looking out for others safety don’t need a gun. We have people in the plant all the time looking for and pointing out safety issues, and they’ve never accidentally shot an operator or engineer. 
 

Moving vehicle safety officers don’t need a gun. Pull someone over, give them a ticket. If they run, write them a bigger ticket or call in the special weapons and tactics unit if you believe them to be an immediate danger to others on the road. 
 

There is zero reason tho have people with guns doing this work. Split the job and split the training. 
 

[BabaYaga 15,296]

9 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

People looking out for others safety don’t need a gun. We have people in the plant all the time looking for and pointing out safety issues, and they’ve never accidentally shot an operator or engineer. 
 

Moving vehicle safety officers don’t need a gun. Pull someone over, give them a ticket. If they run, write them a bigger ticket or call in the special weapons and tactics unit if you believe them to be an immediate danger to others on the road. 
 

There is zero reason tho have people with guns doing this work. Split the job and split the training. 
 

The gun is not for your safety, it's for the officer - FYI

[gsoda3 3,259]

what's the issue with air fresheners hanging from rear view mirrors?  are cops stereotyping cars that do this as belonging to minorities?  is it a code violation?  

[Carl Spackler 3,482]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

The last thing I'm doing is apologizing or excusing the officer in this situation, but well-trained people often make seemingly stupid mistakes. If you watch some of those plane crash TV series, you regularly see pilots with 1,000s of hours of experience making simple mistakes because of all of the information coming at them fast and they hit a mental block in processing it correctly. Many times they override the computer that is giving them correct info but they can't believe it's true.

I imagine that the adrenaline is rushing when a police officer is making the decision to taze someone. It's probably all reaction and not stopping to think is the item in my hand heavier than a taser?

In hindsight, it's probably a bad idea to have officers carrying multiple weapons at the same time. 

Oh, I didn't think you were.  Just wanted to be clear that I think she took her handgun out only after the subject jumped back into the vehicle.  

As someone who has both represented LE personnel in unnecessary force and wrongful death cases and also represented LE entities seeking to uphold discipline imposed against LE personnel for various policy violations (including discharges for unnecessary force), I've worked both sides of the proverbial fence when it comes to law enforcement.  I've seen numerous occasions of headscratching decisions and inexplicable conduct that have occurred in high-stress situations.  There are documented physiological reactions that persons in active threat/ high stress situations tend to experience, including "tunnel vision," impedence of memory, auditory impedence, interference with motor function, and so on.  It's pretty remarkable.  And it doesn't necessarily excuse the conduct in question from a legal standpoint.  But it does sometimes make it more understandable or explainable.  

[InkaUtexas 25,929]

Officer is charged with Second Degree Manslaughter. 

[Carl Spackler 3,482]

17 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

People looking out for others safety don’t need a gun. We have people in the plant all the time looking for and pointing out safety issues, and they’ve never accidentally shot an operator or engineer. 
 

Moving vehicle safety officers don’t need a gun. Pull someone over, give them a ticket. If they run, write them a bigger ticket or call in the special weapons and tactics unit if you believe them to be an immediate danger to others on the road. 
 

There is zero reason tho have people with guns doing this work. Split the job and split the training. 
 

You do realize that protecting public safety entails, among other things, the occasional arrest of persons engaging in criminal conduct who are armed, don't you?  What do you propose that law enforcement personnel use to effect those arrests or to stop criminal conduct as it is occurring?  Harsh language?

The solution is not to disarm law enforcement -- at least not all law enforcement.  I'm not sure exactly what the overall "solution" is, but I tend to think it must involve radical changes in both policing philosophy and training, among other things. 

[GopherRock 1,765]

2nd degree manslaughter.

 

I think this is the right charge. Negligent discharge of a firearm that kills someone, no intention to kill, and no premeditation. 

[Gene Parmesan 4,006]

So what is the process/time frame that a nuisance stop/ticket turns into an outstanding warrant?

[Bateshorn 9,927]

54 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool, cool.  Nobody here is saying that white guys don't get pulled over for piddly shit.  Just like we've said over and over, the issue of police abuses is not strictly a minority one -- it's just that it's more acute for minorities.  The issue is the rate and frequency.

Also:  would any of the white people on this page change races when they get pulled over by a cop for an expired tag?  This is the post to respond to and say yes if you would.

[InkaUtexas 25,929]

3 minutes ago, GopherRock said:

2nd degree manslaughter.

 

I think this is the right charge. Negligent discharge of a firearm that kills someone, no intention to kill, and no premeditation. 

I missed the potential jail time, but heard could be a fine of 20K. What does the city get sued for? 

[Dahobbs 17,534]

5 minutes ago, Carl Spackler said:

There are documented physiological reactions that persons in active threat/ high stress situations tend to experience, including "tunnel vision," impedence of memory, auditory impedence, interference with motor function, and so on.  It's pretty remarkable.  And it doesn't necessarily excuse the conduct in question from a legal standpoint.  But it does sometimes make it more understandable or explainable.  

Which is precisely why the training and policies should be focused on avoiding these situations entirely. Trained police have these problems, yet we consistently expect our lay citizens to have perfect responses to stressful situations instigated by the police or risk death/serious injury. That is unacceptable.