Transgender athletics and legislation - For the kids!

[TwiceHorn 31283]

17 minutes ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Sorry but how many transgender female athletes are out there in competitive sports and of those, what proportion are outclassing all the cisgender women?

Why all of a sudden is this THE big, trendy issue?

Solution in search of a problem, just to kick around the "out" group some more and distract from actual issues that need tackling. 

In addition to the pure hatefulness of it all, exactly what here demands a legislative solution?  Why not just let the sanctioning bodies figure it out?

I don't recall any legislator trying to break up Plano ISD schools, or keep Southlake or Allen or the private Jesus schools from recruiting.

Edited April 12, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

20 minutes ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Sorry but how many transgender female athletes are out there in competitive sports and of those, what proportion are outclassing all the cisgender women?

Why all of a sudden is this THE big, trendy issue?

Solution in search of a problem, just to kick around the "out" group some more and distract from actual issues that need tackling. 

Connecticut High School track law suit only one I know of in High School or college. 
 

How long were they denied the right to play, or played according to biology?  Seems fairly recent. 

[Kyle 207]

25 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

In addition to the pure hatefulness of it all, exactly what here demands a legislative solution?  Why not just let the sanctioning bodies figure it out?

I don't recall any legislator trying to break up Plano ISD schools, or keep Southlake or Allen or the private Jesus schools from recruiting.

I agree. This was one of Biden's more idiotic executive orders. Did not feel like there was a cry for federal intervention. Women take it in the shorts again (no pun intended).

[TwiceHorn 31283]

35 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I agree. This was one of Biden's more idiotic executive orders. Did not feel like there was a cry for federal intervention. Women take it in the shorts again (no pun intended).

I'm not talking about Biden, I'm talking about state legislation.  Biden's EO didn't specifically address athletics at all.  It basically voiced the policy made law in Bostock that discrimination on the basis of sex under existing law (Titles VII and IX) includes transgender, as well as gay, which seems to be a fairly obvious point if you read the opinion.  The other major thing Biden did was drop DOJ support for an anti-TG policy in Connecticut that is being litigated out there.

Edited April 12, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Do you people with daughters want her competing against biological males?  My 9 year old daughter is a fairly gifted athlete and excels in every sport she tries.  I would not want her to have to compete against biological males in sports. Especially post puberty. Even more so in Lacrosse given the contact, which is one of her favorite sports.

Would never be allowed at her school anyway.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Johnny Sack

[UTGrad98 2259]

Ive already seen reports on transgender females competing in female sports. Ive seen the pictures and what has happened to biological females who were flat out smoked in wrestling and track and field. Where the fuck is common sense? Im too old to comment on this thread so Ill say this and show myself out. And no I DGAF how you live your life, but holy shit, common sense. America doesnt have it anymore. Not for mask wearing, not for kneeling for the national anthem vs service men and women, not for AK-47s, not for late term abortions. Whatever party you subscribe to, there is some stupid shit you have to put up with. Ive thrown my hands up. The human race is unequivocally not as smart as it thinks it is.

Edited April 12, 2021 by UTGrad98
grammer

[TwiceHorn 31283]

12 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Do you people with daughters want her competing against biological males?  My 9 year old daughter is a fairly gifted athlete and excels in every sport she tries.  I would not want her to have to compete against biological males in sports. Especially post puberty. Even more so in Lacrosse given the contact, which is one of her favorite sports.

Would never be allowed at her school anyway.

I'm going to go ahead and trust the UIL and other sanctioning bodies to come up with rules that protect against severe inequity and against potential injury.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm going to go ahead and trust the UIL and other sanctioning bodies to come up with rules that protect against severe inequity and against potential injury.

You have more faith in regulating bodies than I do.  Again, I am glad my kids' school would never let it happen. Makes that check I write every July a little easier to choke down.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You have more faith in regulating bodies than I do.  Again, I am glad my kids' school would never let it happen. Makes that check I write every July a little easier to choke down.

I have more faith in the UIL than I do the Texas lege, yes.

[Sawbonz 27436]

Everyone who is trying to have a thoughtful opinion on the subject should read Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides (crazy last name given subject matter). Those of you who think this is simply a matter of binary phenotype and genotype correlation might be shocked to know how much variation there is without even considering trans population.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

Does he believe we will see trans males compete at the highest levels even at the high school level? (Post puberty?)

[Brisketexan 104628]

2 hours ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Sorry but how many transgender female athletes are out there in competitive sports and of those, what proportion are outclassing all the cisgender women?

Why all of a sudden is this THE big, trendy issue?

Solution in search of a problem, just to kick around the "out" group some more and distract from actual issues that need tackling. 

You answered your own question.  Facing a tough budget, an electric system in crisis, the fallout from COVID on the economy and education.....our legislative priorities are all about selling how much you can be a mean dick to the base.

I have a friend who went and testified against the bill today.  She (yes, used to be a he) was utterly broken by the cruel and hateful shit said by the bill sponsors and their supporters.  But note -- the cruel and hateful shit is not a bug, it's a feature.  It's what they are selling.

40 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm going to go ahead and trust the UIL and other sanctioning bodies to come up with rules that protect against severe inequity and against potential injury.

Yep.  Making a big issue out of nothing.  Kind of like shitting on Target for deciding how their shitter access should work.

30 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I have more faith in the UIL than I do the Texas lege, yes.

100%.

5 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Everyone who is trying to have a thoughtful opinion on the subject should read Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides (crazy last name given subject matter). Those of you who think this is simply a matter of binary phenotype and genotype correlation might be shocked to know how much variation there is without even considering trans population.

And here, some actual scientific perspective.  I know it makes people most comfortable to declare there's only he's and she's, and anyone who doesn't stand for the flag is a pussy communist, and all those people with funny names aren't REAL Americans, but it all comes back to ignorant, cruel bullshit.

For fuck's sake, our American obsession with being flagrant assholes to each other to the point of enshrining our assholery in laws is baffling.

[Anastasis 23394]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

In addition to the pure hatefulness of it all, exactly what here demands a legislative solution?  Why not just let the sanctioning bodies figure it out?

Agreed.  Just run testosterone levels and structure the divisions on that stratification.  If you don't want to call them boys and girls, just figure out the threshold on an objective lab measure to draw the line. 

 

We are already seeing issues in some of the club teams we play. Particularly one of the Lonestar teams. 

[StruggleBus 3922]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Agreed.  Just run testosterone levels and structure the divisions on that stratification.  If you don't want to call them boys and girls, just figure out the threshold on an objective lab measure to draw the line. 

 

We are already seeing issues in some of the club teams we play. Particularly one of the Lonestar teams. 

Yeah that's great and all, but what happens when the next Jose fuckin' Canseco is jacking 80 dingers a year but doesn't register high enough on your fancy little testosterone test? You gonna make him play softball with the girls? Huh? HUH?

[Ghost of LL 15492]

16 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Everyone who is trying to have a thoughtful opinion on the subject should read Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides (crazy last name given subject matter). Those of you who think this is simply a matter of binary phenotype and genotype correlation might be shocked to know how much variation there is without even considering trans population.

This is an important point, because these bills have a lot of variation, but they all ignore this point.  How exactly are you drawing a line between which female athlete has too much testosterone to be considered "female" for purposes of playing high school basketball?

Oh, don't worry about testosterone levels, you say--even though that's the source of the transgender athlete's presumed advantage--just worry about what's between his/her legs.  In which case I really look forward to all y'all fathers who are suddenly so passionate about women's athletics (despite having opposed Title VII for the past 40 years) saying to the school district "yeah, sure--feel free to give my daughter a pelvic exam to make sure that's a bona fide vagina."

And, yeah--I'm specifically calling out you, @Johnny Sack.

 

[Ghost of LL 15492]

12 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Agreed.  Just run testosterone levels and structure the divisions on that stratification.  If you don't want to call them boys and girls, just figure out the threshold on an objective lab measure to draw the line. 

 

We are already seeing issues in some of the club teams we play. Particularly one of the Lonestar teams. 

Oh, that's fun--let's run the testosterone levels of adolescents and them make them public by stratifying them in different leagues.  I don't see any prospect for bullying there.  And I sure as shit don't foresee how that could result in any psychological trauma.

Jesus fucking Christ--do some of y'all not think about shit before typing it on this board and hitting "Submit Reply"?

[Anastasis 23394]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Oh, that's fun--let's run the testosterone levels of adolescents and them make them public by stratifying them in different leagues.  I don't see any prospect for bullying there.  And I sure as shit don't foresee how that could result in any psychological trauma.

Jesus fucking Christ--do some of y'all not think about shit before typing it on this board and hitting "Submit Reply"?

 

Bullying is your wedge?  Testosterone levels are an objective measure correlated with athletic performance.  We're living in a world where people want to act like the sexes are interchangeable, clouding the distinctions between psychological constructs of gender and the hard constructs of sex and hormone levels. But good for you for piping out something about bullying and psychological trauma before you hit reply. The above is a politically correct gender neutral approach to segmenting athletic competition. Sorry if you don't like where the logic behind this debate ends up. 

[Anastasis 23394]

26 minutes ago, StruggleBus said:

Yeah that's great and all, but what happens when the next Jose fuckin' Canseco is jacking 80 dingers a year but doesn't register high enough on your fancy little testosterone test? You gonna make him play softball with the girls? Huh? HUH?

Exogenous testosterone should be included in the overall level with endogenous testosterone. 

[Sawbonz 27436]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

Bullying is your wedge?  Testosterone levels are an objective measure correlated with athletic performance.  We're living in a world where people want to act like the sexes are interchangeable, clouding the distinctions between psychological constructs of gender and the hard constructs of sex and hormone levels. But good for you for piping out something about bullying and psychological trauma before you hit reply. The above is a politically correct gender neutral approach to segmenting athletic competition. Sorry if you don't like where the logic behind this debate ends up. 

What do you do about intersex athletes? Read up on Caster Semenya. Should an athlete like her be subjected to genital examinations and bloodwork to participate in youth sports?

[Ghost of LL 15492]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

Bullying is your wedge?  Testosterone levels are an objective measure correlated with athletic performance.  We're living in a world where people want to act like the sexes are interchangeable, clouding the distinctions between psychological constructs of gender and the hard constructs of sex and hormone levels. But good for you for piping out something about bullying and psychological trauma before you hit reply. The above is a politically correct gender neutral approach to segmenting athletic competition. Sorry if you don't like where the logic behind this debate ends up. 

So, you are aware that there are a lot of cisgender boys who are going to have significantly lower testosterone levels than a lot of cisgender girls, right?  I mean, we're not even talking about transgender here; we're talking about kids who were born boys/girls and are boys/girls and think of themselves as boys/girls.

So your answer is to send every kid who wants to play sports to go have an annual blood draw to see his/her testosterone levels.  And you think that's a good idea?  All because of some made-up boogyman about those awful transgenders coming out and dominating the fuck out of women's sports (about which you don't give a fuck anyway).

And so what happens when a girl comes home with a blood draw that says she has too much testosterone to play high school volleyball?  How's that going to go down with the mean girls at school?  You think that's a great thing?

It's just cruelty for the sake of cruelty.

Well, that's not exactly true.  It's cruelty for the sake of distracting from the fact that the Republican Party has presided over Texas's descent into failed-state status.  We can't keep the fucking lights on during a winter storm.  We can't efficiently distribute a vaccine during a pandemic (and God knows we can't enact any measures to slow the spread of the disease).  We can't even administer a lousy standardized test over the internets without the system crashing.

And godfuckingdammit, we can't even hate on the gays anymore because that's considered improper because every fucking suburban housewife has a gay friend.

I know--let's scapegoat the trans folks!  Yeah--maybe then the voters will forget about the fact that they pay some of the nation's highest taxes and in exchange get the nation's most incompetent government.

[Ghost of LL 15492]

8 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

I already said I don’t know and hope to understand. Also is it true you fell into a fire pit while exposing yourself?

 

Course there could be roids involved but...

 

No, not exactly.  I fell into a fire.  I wasn't exposing myself.  But I do appreciate that it's a better story the other way.

In any event, so what do you suggest?  A blood test for every athlete who wants to participate in youth sports?  Or should we just do a pelvic exam for every little girl who wants to play a sport?

[Anastasis 23394]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

What do you do about intersex athletes? Read up on Caster Semenya. Should an athlete like her be subjected to genital examinations and bloodwork to participate in youth sports?

I haven't said anything about genital examinations.  Not sure why your head goes there.  You give an example of a hundredth of a percentage point prevalence situation.  I don't think that we build out a rational approach to youth sports based on that.  But if you want to go there, the testosterone segmentation that I mentioned would adequately handle that situation without genital examinations. If we want to treat this all objectively, seems that some matrix of objective lab data would get us there.  Or we can just proceed with the variety of hodge podge based on fuzzy gender assessments.   

[Sawbonz 27436]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I haven't said anything about genital examinations.  Not sure why your head goes there.  You give an example of a hundredth of a percentage point prevalence situation.  I don't think that we build out a rational approach to youth sports based on that.  But if you want to go there, the testosterone segmentation that I mentioned would adequately handle that situation without genital examinations. If we want to treat this all objectively, seems that some matrix of objective lab data would get us there.  Or we can just proceed with the variety of hodge podge based on fuzzy gender assessments.   

A girl with Semenya’s genotype would not be allowed to participate in girl’s youth sports based on her natural testosterone level. You going to ban those kids from athletics? Make them take hormone suppression meds?

[Nicole44 22027]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

No, not exactly.  I fell into a fire.  I wasn't exposing myself.  But I do appreciate that it's a better story the other way.

In any event, so what do you suggest?  A blood test for every athlete who wants to participate in youth sports?  Or should we just do a pelvic exam for every little girl who wants to play a sport?

Also, you are a legend and I hope all posters know you are famous! Or infamous. Eating breakfast before appearing at the Bowl game in full costume! 
 You are giving a sex at birth whether you feel it or not. You are and should be given said ID card until you get your driver’s license and that shit should still say the same fucking thing. Born male. Born female. 

[Anastasis 23394]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

So, you are aware that there are a lot of cisgender boys who are going to have significantly lower testosterone levels than a lot of cisgender girls, right?  I mean, we're not even talking about transgender here; we're talking about kids who were born boys/girls and are boys/girls and think of themselves as boys/girls.

So your answer is to send every kid who wants to play sports to go have an annual blood draw to see his/her testosterone levels.  And you think that's a good idea?  All because of some made-up boogyman about those awful transgenders coming out and dominating the fuck out of women's sports (about which you don't give a fuck anyway).

And so what happens when a girl comes home with a blood draw that says she has too much testosterone to play high school volleyball?  How's that going to go down with the mean girls at school?  You think that's a great thing?

It's just cruelty for the sake of cruelty.

Well, that's not exactly true.  It's cruelty for the sake of distracting from the fact that the Republican Party has presided over Texas's descent into failed-state status.  We can't keep the fucking lights on during a winter storm.  We can't efficiently distribute a vaccine during a pandemic (and God knows we can't enact any measures to slow the spread of the disease).  We can't even administer a lousy standardized test over the internets without the system crashing.

And godfuckingdammit, we can't even hate on the gays anymore because that's considered improper because every fucking suburban housewife has a gay friend.

I know--let's scapegoat the trans folks!  Yeah--maybe then the voters will forget about the fact that they pay some of the nation's highest taxes and in exchange get the nation's most incompetent government.

I am not scapegoating trans or gay folks.  If you don't want to differentiate youth sports leagues based on sex, lets find a different measure that is objective, and perhaps even more objective. That you don't like the ramifications of such an approach is not really a compelling argument, it is just emotive. All my kids have played coed and sex-segmented sports at various points.  There is a differentiation in athletic performance that particularly is evident in adolescence. I am not sure what your answer is, but I think that there is merit to having some differentiation in youth sports to maintain competitiveness. I think that we should just simply differentiate youth sports leagues based on sex, but if you do not want to take that approach what is your alternative?  I am not sure what you are actually suggesting because you have not articulated it.  Just some ranting about hating gays and trans.   

[Dahobbs 17448]

1 minute ago, Nicole44 said:

Also, you are a legend and I hope all posters know you are famous! Or infamous. Eating breakfast before appearing at the Bowl game in full costume! 
 You are giving a sex at birth whether you feel it or not. You are and should be given said ID card until you get your driver’s license and that shit should still say the same fucking thing. Born male. Born female. 

Male and female are classifications we've come up with. There is no particular reason the classification had to be binary. That is really just a messy approximation of much more analog process. 

[Ghost of LL 15492]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I am not scapegoating trans or gay folks.  If you don't want to differentiate youth sports leagues based on sex, lets find a different measure that is objective, and perhaps even more objective. That you don't like the ramifications of such an approach is not really a compelling argument, it is just emotive. All my kids have played coed and sex-segmented sports at various points.  There is a differentiation in athletic performance that particularly is evident in adolescence. I am not sure what your answer is, but I think that there is merit to having some differentiation in youth sports to maintain competitiveness. I think that we should just simply differentiate youth sports leagues based on sex, but if you do not want to take that approach what is your alternative?  I am not sure what you are actually suggesting because you have not articulated it.  Just some ranting about hating gays and trans.   

This is a "solution" in search of a problem.  But to the extent anybody thinks it is a problem, the current solution is working just fine--kids play as the gender with which they identify.

[Nicole44 22027]

4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Male and female are classifications we've come up with. There is no particular reason the classification had to be binary. That is really just a messy approximation of much more analog process. 

I’m cool with whatever anyone wants to call themselves or be. They have more worries than I can fathom. But I am a heterosexual female and just want like anyone else to be called what I am. If that’s offensive I could give a solid fuck. 

[Js1 85112]

Chill out Nicole. 

[Anastasis 23394]

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

A girl with Semenya’s genotype would not be allowed to participate in girl’s youth sports based on her natural testosterone level. You going to ban those kids from athletics? Make them take hormone suppression meds?

I haven't said anything about banning kids from youth sports.  From what I understand, she has a XY genotype. She has a very rare and highly regionalized 5alpha deficiency which increases her testosterone levels.  I'd be perfectly happy with her competing as a girl in youth sports. I don't think that we have to fundamentally alter our approach to youth sports based on extremely rare genetic events, or rare and highly regionalized enzyme deficiencies. But for the people that view it as a problem, an objective approach that discards with gender alignment in favor of correlates of athletic performance seems like an objective alternative. 

[Anastasis 23394]

11 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

This is a "solution" in search of a problem.  But to the extent anybody thinks it is a problem, the current solution is working just fine--kids play as the gender with which they identify.

Not really when there is a clear difference in body build and athletic performance resulting in a tilted playing field. 

[Sawbonz 27436]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I haven't said anything about banning kids from youth sports.  From what I understand, she has a XY genotype. She has a very rare and highly regionalized 5alpha deficiency which increases her testosterone levels.  I'd be perfectly happy with her competing as a girl in youth sports. I don't think that we have to fundamentally alter our approach to youth sports based on extremely rare genetic events, or rare and highly regionalized enzyme deficiencies. But for the people that view it as a problem, an objective approach that discards with gender alignment in favor of correlates of athletic performance seems like an objective alternative. 

But you said you want to stratify athletes based on testosterone levels. That would disqualify her from competing. Unless your make an exception based on phenotype not matching genotype. 

[RollLeft 5040]

This thread seems cunty.

[Anastasis 23394]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

But you said you want to stratify athletes based on testosterone levels. That would disqualify her from competing. Unless your make an exception based on phenotype not matching genotype. 

I think that you have misread what I posted. There is nothing about stratifying based on testosterone level that would exclude her.  The issues that she appears to have run into (based on quick google) is that they intersected sex classification with testosterone level.  I am suggesting that if you want to drop sex classification and the obvious correlation with athletic performance, you can do it all together, and run with segmentation based on objective measures of athletic performance. Maybe some mix of athletic performance metrics and lab values. If you want to remove the fuzzy nature of gender assignment from the discussion, just run with purely objective measures to level the playing field. 

[Willfully Horn 7916]

5 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Yo, you say you can identify as anything you want on a sliding scale because binary gender is a social construct.... and that's fine in your private life.

But sports isn't a social construct, it's a physical competition, so why not accept a separation using the primary taxonomic identifier (i.e. biological gender)... or eliminate gender class altogether in competition.  Fuck it.  Everybody competes for the a spot on football/basketball/baseball/track/tennis team on pure talent.

As with most all human questions, answers are not painted with too-broad of brush.

Hearing my concerns about minors declaring they are transgendered and thereby receiving medical treatment to promote the patient’s gender image, (I worried these folks might change their mind,) my wife clued me in to the reality.

if a transgender citizen KNOWS, then hormone therapy helps their body match their identity. So, while the Bruce Jenner and Dr Renee types exist, many more are able to receive specific hormones with their developmental years. These people develop as girls (or boys.)

This isn’t a clear cut issue once you look at the details. I think fairness to others is a valid concern, but fairness to others needs to include fairness to all, too.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Punct

[Ridingtosunset 129]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

Oh, that's fun--let's run the testosterone levels of adolescents and them make them public by stratifying them in different leagues.  I don't see any prospect for bullying there.  And I sure as shit don't foresee how that could result in any psychological trauma.

Jesus fucking Christ--do some of y'all not think about shit before typing it on this board and hitting "Submit Reply"?

Right? How about biological males at birth compete with other biological males at birth? Nah...that makes too much fucking sense for America in 2021. 

If there is such a small number of transgender females wanting to compete with biological females, then why would we force a larger number of biological females to compete against them? 

Discrimination of any kind is awful, trans included. Don't be a dick to people, and leave people alone. Pretty good rule. But trans females competing against biological females is itself an injustice. Anyone with teenage daughters competing in sports would and should be rightfully outraged by this. Common sense...where did it go. 

 

 

[dcar00 14035]

24 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

This thread seems cunty.

or dickie....depending on your perspective

[dcar00 14035]

9 minutes ago, Ridingtosunset said:

 

Discrimination of any kind is awful, trans included. Don't be a dick to people, and leave people alone. Pretty good rule. But trans females competing against biological females is itself an injustice. Anyone with teenage daughters competing in sports would and should be rightfully outraged by this. Common sense...where did it go. 

 

 

in the fire with Dr. Seuss

[Nicole44 22027]

28 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

This thread seems cunty.

 

[Ghost of LL 15492]

24 minutes ago, Ridingtosunset said:

Right? How about biological males at birth compete with other biological males at birth? Nah...that makes too much fucking sense for America in 2021. 

If there is such a small number of transgender females wanting to compete with biological females, then why would we force a larger number of biological females to compete against them? 

Discrimination of any kind is awful, trans included. Don't be a dick to people, and leave people alone. Pretty good rule. But trans females competing against biological females is itself an injustice. Anyone with teenage daughters competing in sports would and should be rightfully outraged by this. Common sense...where did it go. 

 

 

Yes--where did it go?

49 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Not really when there is a clear difference in body build and athletic performance resulting in a tilted playing field. 

So this hasn't been an issue until now, even though the NCAA policy has been in place for a decade (and there have been transsexual people for a lot longer than that).  So why is this right now a problem that needs a solution?  Right now?

The fact is that it isn't a problem.  There's no tilted playing field, else you would've noticed it before now.  I mean, you know--if you ever actually gave a fuck about women's athletics (beyond hating them for depriving men's athletics of resources under Title VII).

This is a made-up problem that is made up to mobilize the rubes because Joe Biden just passed an incredibly popular Covid-relief bill and is going to pass an incredibly popular jobs bill.  And if you can't see that, then you're a fucking moron.

[Anastasis 23394]

1 minute ago, Ghost of LL said:

The fact is that it isn't a problem.  There's no tilted playing field, else you would've noticed it before now.  I mean, you know--if you ever actually gave a fuck about women's athletics (beyond hating them for depriving men's athletics of resources under Title VII).

This is a made-up problem that is made up to mobilize the rubes because Joe Biden just passed an incredibly popular Covid-relief bill and is going to pass an incredibly popular jobs bill.  And if you can't see that, then you're a fucking moron.

 

Strawman politicization with a sidecar of ad hominem. I alluded to my own experience with the subject earlier, in my daughter's club matches.

It takes an amazing amount of brain damage to argue that there is no difference between boys and girls in athletic competition, but here we are. 

[Helobious 9481]

40 minutes ago, Ridingtosunset said:

Right? How about biological males at birth compete with other biological males at birth? Nah...that makes too much fucking sense for America in 2021. 

If there is such a small number of transgender females wanting to compete with biological females, then why would we force a larger number of biological females to compete against them? 

Discrimination of any kind is awful, trans included. Don't be a dick to people, and leave people alone. Pretty good rule. But trans females competing against biological females is itself an injustice. Anyone with teenage daughters competing in sports would and should be rightfully outraged by this. Common sense...where did it go. 

 

 

A trans girl won a girls wrestling state title a couple years ago here in TX, following the rules you laid out in this post. She was transitioning from girl to boy and petitioned to compete with the boys, but the UIL said no, you have to compete with the gender on your birth certificate. 

[Ridingtosunset 129]

2 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Yes--where did it go?

So this hasn't been an issue until now, even though the NCAA policy has been in place for a decade (and there have been transsexual people for a lot longer than that).  So why is this right now a problem that needs a solution?  Right now?

The fact is that it isn't a problem.  There's no tilted playing field, else you would've noticed it before now.  I mean, you know--if you ever actually gave a fuck about women's athletics (beyond hating them for depriving men's athletics of resources under Title VII).

This is a made-up problem that is made up to mobilize the rubes because Joe Biden just passed an incredibly popular Covid-relief bill and is going to pass an incredibly popular jobs bill.  And if you can't see that, then you're a fucking moron.

Regardless of when the policy was put in place, its a bigger deal now. It seems more trans people are comfortable coming out and that's great. But we don't make all boxers fight in the same weight class, women golfers play from different tees, we still don't condone male on female violence, like we do female on male. And for good reason. 

I give quite a few fucks about women's athletics. I coached it for years. And now have a teenage daughter that plays. 

Your take on Biden's stimulus is neither here nor there. People are tired of politics co-opting social issues to divide and gain supporters for their team. Whatever you think of Biden's stimulus, it has nothing to do with this issue. 

[Ridingtosunset 129]

4 minutes ago, Helobious said:

A trans girl won a girls wrestling state title a couple years ago here in TX, following the rules you laid out in this post. She was transitioning from girl to boy and petitioned to compete with the boys, but the UIL said no, you have to compete with the gender on your birth certificate. 

I'm less opposed to that. For obvious reasons. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

Let's get something clear about Biden.

Biden didn't take any particular stand on trans athletes.  He signed an EO that said that federal agencies responsible for implementing TItle VII and Title IX policies that prohibit discrimination based on sex should include transgender along with m/f, gay/not gay, etc.  Which is actually consistent with the law as pronounced by Gorsuch and the Supreme Court.

A corollary to that Executive Order is that the Biden DOJ withdrew a statement of interest in favor of the plaintiffs in a CT case where some cisgender athletes are suing to hold unregulated trans participation in sports unlawful.  

In some sense, that means that state laws or policies implemented by state actors could be ruled in violation of these statutory provisions IF THE PRIMARY PURPOSE IS TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST TRANSGENDER FOLK.

If there is a legitimate reason to discriminate, such as protection of smaller cis-athletes, or to remedy what becomes a massive inequity in competition, then the laws will presumably pass muster.

It basically all remains to be seen and people of good will and good sense should probably hold their fucking water and see what happens before flying off half-cocked based on some theoretical horribles.

Edited April 13, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

This is an important point, because these bills have a lot of variation, but they all ignore this point.  How exactly are you drawing a line between which female athlete has too much testosterone to be considered "female" for purposes of playing high school basketball?

Oh, don't worry about testosterone levels, you say--even though that's the source of the transgender athlete's presumed advantage--just worry about what's between his/her legs.  In which case I really look forward to all y'all fathers who are suddenly so passionate about women's athletics (despite having opposed Title VII for the past 40 years) saying to the school district "yeah, sure--feel free to give my daughter a pelvic exam to make sure that's a bona fide vagina."

And, yeah--I'm specifically calling out you, @Johnny Sack.

 

Jesus, pelvic exams?  Really? I care about my daughter’s athletics.  I help coach it.  Honestly I do give zero fucks about women’s college sports.  I’d rather watch the paint dry and once my daughter is 15-16 she’ll likely only play tennis and participate in cheerleading (she loves tumbling).  I wouldn’t thrill me if she was shooting hoops in her 20s   

But as a child playing Lacrosse, I don’t want her competing against biological males.  Nor does anyone else I know.  

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

28 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Seems like this is more or less a non-issue in team sports.

Track and some other individual sports would seem to be more problematic.

I'd be interested to see how big a deal it really is before going off half-cocked with rules and shit.

By big deal I mean what kind of real competitive disadvantages or injury potentials result.

There have always been overgrown kids and ringers and most of the complaints about them are much ado about nothing.

It seems that the number of MtF TG kids that have the inclination and talent to actually seriously affect competiton is going to be relatively small.  The fear of tight-end sized girls overtaking all womens sports seems rather overblown.

Anecdotal but two Connecticut senior transgender females have won 15 state indoor and outdoor championships combined since transitioning in 2017 (previously held by 9 different girls) and broken multiple state records while doing so.  
 

One of the plaintiffs, Alanna Smith, explained at a news conference why she thinks the policy is unfair. "Mentally and physically, we know the outcome before the race even starts," she said. "That biological unfairness doesn't go away because of what someone believes about gender identity."

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/connecticut-high-schoolers-sue-transgender-athletes-competing-girls-sports/#app

Edited April 13, 2021 by ChickenSandwich

[TwiceHorn 31283]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

But as a child playing Lacrosse, I don’t want her competing against biological males.  Nor does anyone else I know.  

Why do you care so much?  Serious question?  What's on the line?  

[Ridingtosunset 129]

That's my issue. Nobody seems to give a shit that Alanna is unfairly fucked in this situation. Why is that? What is so rightuous about injustice against one for another? 

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2659]

Accurate info about the Connecticut athletes and other political context for this big, important problem:

https://www.vox.com/identities/22334014/trans-athletes-bills-explained