Transgender athletics and legislation - For the kids!

[Ridingtosunset 129]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Why do you care so much?  Serious question?  What's on the line?  

Self-esteem, confidence, teamwork, any number of other virtues that I think we can all agree can come from sports. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

4 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Anecdotal but two Connecticut senior transgender females have won 15 state indoor and outdoor championships combined since transitioning in 2017 (previously held by 9 different girls) and broken multiple state records while doing so.  
 

One of the plaintiffs, Alanna Smith, explained at a news conference why she thinks the policy is unfair. "Mentally and physically, we know the outcome before the race even starts," she said. "That biological unfairness doesn't go away because of what someone believes about gender identity."

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/connecticut-high-schoolers-sue-transgender-athletes-competing-girls-sports/#app

I've seen that and I am very suspicious of how those "18 titles" are counted.  And one of the cis plaintiffs, and another cis-girl, recently beat the trans girl at a state meet.  And the two trans defendants are the ONLY trans track competitors in Connecticut.

I'm going to guess that CT high school track at whatever level that is is not very competitive.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

1 minute ago, Ridingtosunset said:

Self-esteem, confidence, teamwork, any number of other virtues that I think we can all agree can come from sports. 

And all those are completely trashed by letting a couple of trans kids into the lax league.  Okey.  Dokey.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

5 minutes ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Accurate info about the Connecticut athletes and other political context for this big, important problem:

https://www.vox.com/identities/22334014/trans-athletes-bills-explained

So if after more evidence becomes available and a real advantage holds true, would there ever be the will power to admit a mistake?  All this article proves is a lack of evidence on both sides. 
 

*high school and under. College and pros should do what they want. 

[Hanrahan 1306]

Jesus, pelvic exams?  Really? I care about my daughter’s athletics.  I help coach it.  Honestly I do give zero fucks about women’s college sports.  I’d rather watch the paint dry and once my daughter is 15-16 she’ll likely only play tennis and participate in cheerleading (she loves tumbling).  I wouldn’t thrill me if she was shooting hoops in her 20s   
But as a child playing Lacrosse, I don’t want her competing against biological males.  Nor does anyone else I know.  

Hylax are inferior to the Knights regardless of whether you hosers play with ringers.

[Ridingtosunset 129]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

And all those are completely trashed by letting a couple of trans kids into the lax league.  Okey.  Dokey.

You obviously haven't spent much time around competitive youth sports. It absolutely can and does. 

I'm astounded at this. We have made so many strides in empowering women and young girls. Female sports are light years where they were even 2-3 decades ago. We have empowered feminists. Some bad, but mostly good. But girls and young ladies sports have come a long, long way. And I'm thrilled about that. 

Now the current cause is women need to accept biological males competing with them, and anyone who tries to stand up for biological women being at a disadvantage is a Q following Trump voter. Amazing. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

So if after more evidence becomes available and a real advantage holds true, would there ever be the will power to admit a mistake?  All this article proves is a lack of evidence on both sides. 
 

*high school and under. College and pros should do what they want. 

This is why I think letting the leagues figure it out is the way to go.  Legislation has a habit of not being revisited very often.  Leagues and outfits like UIL change their rules all the time.

[Hanrahan 1306]

I've seen that and I am very suspicious of how those "18 titles" are counted.  And one of the cis plaintiffs, and another cis-girl, recently beat the trans girl at a state meet.  And the two trans defendants are the ONLY trans track competitors in Connecticut.
I'm going to guess that CT high school track at whatever level that is is not very competitive.

Not any more it’s not.

[immortal13 4059]

1 minute ago, Ridingtosunset said:

You obviously haven't spent much time around competitive youth sports. It absolutely can and does. 

I'm astounded at this. We have made so many strides in empowering women and young girls. Female sports are light years where they were even 2-3 decades ago. We have empowered feminists. Some bad, but mostly good. But girls and young ladies sports have come a long, long way. And I'm thrilled about that. 

Now the current cause is women need to accept biological males competing with them, and anyone who tries to stand up for biological women being at a disadvantage is a Q following Trump voter. Amazing. 

Welcome to Surly

[TwiceHorn 31283]

1 minute ago, Ridingtosunset said:

You obviously haven't spent much time around competitive youth sports. It absolutely can and does. 

I'm astounded at this. We have made so many strides in empowering women and young girls. Female sports are light years where they were even 2-3 decades ago. We have empowered feminists. Some bad, but mostly good. But girls and young ladies sports have come a long, long way. And I'm thrilled about that. 

Now the current cause is women need to accept biological males competing with them, and anyone who tries to stand up for biological women being at a disadvantage is a Q following Trump voter. Amazing. 

You said a bunch of words that don't explain why letting a couple of trans kids into the league destroys the experience for the rest of the competitors.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

This is why I think letting the leagues figure it out is the way to go.  Legislation has a habit of not being revisited very often.  Leagues and outfits like UIL change their rules all the time.

Don’t have a problem with this, but they should be upfront with all when discussing and have a reason based on science for the why. 
 

Every parent understands the science of an Olympic world record book. 

[Kyle 207]

The good news to come out of this is we can replace the women's national soccer team with any 16-year-old boys club team and never have to hear from that insufferable Megan Rapinoe again.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

1 minute ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Don’t have a problem with this, but they should be upfront with all when discussing and have a reason based on science for the why. 

And this is why I find state legislation banning trans kids from competition in their gender to be obnoxious.

It is currently mostly only a theoretical problem that isn't motivated by any real interest in preserving competition, but rather by stoking the flames of division and discriminatlon.  A lot like bathroom bills.

[immortal13 4059]

15 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

And all those are completely trashed by letting a couple of trans kids into the lax league.  Okey.  Dokey.

So it would be ok if those "couple" of kids dominate the entire league or district? I mean there seems to be a precedent already. 

[Ridingtosunset 129]

Its been covered in this thread sufficiently. That's obviously something that's not quantifiable. I'm not interested in a pissing match. Might be more difficult for a lawyer to understand, but in life there some very apparent truths. 

You guys are bending over backward to argue against a very apparent truth in life. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Ridingtosunset
in response to Twicehorn

[Kyle 207]

3 minutes ago, Ridingtosunset said:

Its been covered in this thread sufficiently. That's obviously something that's not quantifiable. I'm not interested in a pissing match. Might be more difficult for a lawyer to understand, but in life there some very apparent truths. 

You guys are bending over backward to argue against a very apparent truth in life. 

Welcome to the surl.

[Anastasis 23394]

2 minutes ago, Kyle said:

The good news to come out of this is we can replace the women's national soccer team with any 16-year-old boys club team and never have to hear from that insufferable Megan Rapinoe again.

The US Women's National Team is fun to watch. They should get paid a multiple over the Men's team. But some people don't seem to understand how this all ends.  

[TwiceHorn 31283]

1 minute ago, immortal13 said:

So it would be ok if those "couple" of kids dominate the entire league or district? I mean there seems to be a precedent already. 

I'm not aware of any such precedent.  I'm not convinced the story in Connecticut is accurate.

I don't think it's really a big issue with team sports.  Every team in every sport has to deal with another team with a really gifted athlete or two, or nine or eleven.  It doesn't always or even usually equate to a run of undefeated seasons and state championships.

[Ridingtosunset 129]

Just now, Kyle said:

Welcome to the surl.

I wish it were just the surl.

[Hanrahan 1306]

You said a bunch of words that don't explain why letting a couple of trans kids into the league destroys the experience for the rest of the competitors.

Let me give it a try. It’s for the same reason letting my 190 pound svelte self into the chick’s lacrosse league in 1995 would have sucked for most all of them. I’d have wrecked fucking shop.

[immortal13 4059]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not aware of any such precedent.  I'm not convinced the story in Connecticut is accurate.

I don't think it's really a big issue with team sports.  Every team in every sport has to deal with another team with a really gifted athlete or two, or nine or eleven.  It doesn't always or even usually equate to a run of undefeated seasons and state championships.

Admittedly I'm not an expert on Connecticut high school sports, but I'm pretty sure I read that those two won first and second at fucking State. Seems like a precedent to me.

[Kyle 207]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The US Women's National Team is fun to watch. They should get paid a multiple over the Men's team. But some people don't seem to understand how this all ends.  

The next logical step is age. If sex is just a construct that can be defined to infinity, why not let people identify at whatever age they feel like. No reason sexual biology should be limited to you know, sexual biology. Have Sark start recruiting a bunch of practice squad NFL guys and have them identify as 18-year-olds. I'm sure the lax league will not be impacted by 21-year-old guys competing against 15-year-old girls, cause you know, good players.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Kyle

[Helobious 9481]

2 minutes ago, Kyle said:

The next logical step is age. If sex is just a construct that can be defined to infinity, why not let people identify at whatever age they feel like. No reason sexual biology should be limited to you know, sexual biology. Have Sark start recruiting a bunch of practice squad NFL guys and have them identify as 18-year-olds. I'm sure the lax league will not be impacted by 21-year-old guys competing against 15-year-old girls, cause you know, good players.

That’s a pretty weak comparison. You can look at nature for examples of animals that can change their gender (clownfish, eels, certain frogs). There’s nothing in existence that can change its age.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

7 minutes ago, Hanrahan said:

 

Let me give it a try. It’s for the same reason letting my 190 pound svelte self into the chick’s lacrosse league in 1995 would have sucked for most all of them. I’d have wrecked fucking shop.

 

Sack's example seemed to be limited to "child" sports, and tended to exclude high school level sports.  Were you in 5th grade in 1995?

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not aware of any such precedent.  I'm not convinced the story in Connecticut is accurate.

I don't think it's really a big issue with team sports.  Every team in every sport has to deal with another team with a really gifted athlete or two, or nine or eleven.  It doesn't always or even usually equate to a run of undefeated seasons and state championships.

https://connecticutstatechampionships.runnerspace.com
 

would be bold to misrepresent the claims being openly verifiable. 
Outdoor state results 

https://connecticutstatechampionships.runnerspace.com

Indoor

https://connecticut-indoor-class-championships.runnerspace.com

Edited April 13, 2021 by ChickenSandwich

[Hanrahan 1306]

That’s a pretty weak comparison. You can look at nature for examples of animals that can change their gender (clownfish, eels, certain frogs). There’s nothing in existence that can change its age.

Some jellyfish are immortal and it’s troglodytes like you who discriminate against them.

[Anastasis 23394]

12 minutes ago, Helobious said:

You can look at nature for examples of animals that can change their gender (clownfish, eels, certain frogs). There’s nothing in existence that can change its age.

I can look to nature for example of animals that thrive on eating their own feces, but I don't try to build a youth sports league around the concept. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

5 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

https://connecticutstatechampionships.runnerspace.com
 

would be bold to misrepresent the claims being openly verifiable. 
Outdoor state results 

https://connecticutstatechampionships.runnerspace.com

Indoor

https://connecticut-indoor-class-championships.runnerspace.com

The article you quoted indicated that the two hold 15 (another said 18) state track titles.  In that reportage, I'm not seeing that many between the two of them.  They won some races and lost some too.

Granted, its a bit of a bummer for the runner up, but I'm not seeing total domination by those two runners.

[workswithseed 2037]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I can look to nature for example of animals that thrive on eating their own feces, but I don't try to build a youth sports league around the concept. 

Fuck the French for trying to get Plato's forms to work.

[Ghost of LL 15492]

Strawman politicization with a sidecar of ad hominem. I alluded to my own experience with the subject earlier, in my daughter's club matches.
It takes an amazing amount of brain damage to argue that there is no difference between boys and girls in athletic competition, but here we are. 

It is genuinely hilarious that you allege strawman and ad hominem . . . And then engage in strawman and ad hominem.

For the record, I’m not saying that you’re a moron, because I don’t believe for a minute that you think this is a serious issue.

[GRHorn 105]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

Yes--where did it go?

So this hasn't been an issue until now, even though the NCAA policy has been in place for a decade (and there have been transsexual people for a lot longer than that).  So why is this right now a problem that needs a solution?  Right now?

The fact is that it isn't a problem.  There's no tilted playing field, else you would've noticed it before now.  I mean, you know--if you ever actually gave a fuck about women's athletics (beyond hating them for depriving men's athletics of resources under Title VII).

This is a made-up problem that is made up to mobilize the rubes because Joe Biden just passed an incredibly popular Covid-relief bill and is going to pass an incredibly popular jobs bill.  And if you can't see that, then you're a fucking moron.

You need to calm down.

Is this something that should be legislated? Probably not. I doubt it's that prevalent, although my kids aren't old enough yet to play with kids that are transitioning.

Your last paragraph explains why you're so worked up. You're one of those duds that has to see everything through a political lens and you're agitated because this is probably effective. If you ask 100 people on the street if people born biologically female, but transitioning to male, should play women's or girl's sports the overwhelming majority would say no.

If you want to be mad at anybody you should be mad at Joe Biden for being such an exceptional man and leader that his adversaries have to go to such lengths to challenge his brilliance.

[UT_OB1 2200]

36 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not aware of any such precedent.  I'm not convinced the story in Connecticut is accurate.

I don't think it's really a big issue with team sports.  Every team in every sport has to deal with another team with a really gifted athlete or two, or nine or eleven.  It doesn't always or even usually equate to a run of undefeated seasons and state championships.

How are you not convinced it is accurate?  That info including their race times had been available for a while. Slow bio dudes went and dominated bio girl track meets. 

[UT_OB1 2200]

21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The article you quoted indicated that the two hold 15 (another said 18) state track titles.  In that reportage, I'm not seeing that many between the two of them.  They won some races and lost some too.

Granted, its a bit of a bummer for the runner up, but I'm not seeing total domination by those two runners.

Jesus Christ. They took first and second in state. As sophomores. Are you being intentionally obtuse?  
 

I joke that they are slow. They clearly aren’t Shaggy fast, but mid 11s wouldn’t set the world on fire in the boys at state.  Boys that can run mid 11s are a dime a dozen. It will take first in the girls division.  

 

Transgender high school sophomores Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood came in first and second place, respectively, in the 100-meter race at the State Open Finals June 4, angering some parents who complained they had a competitive advantage over non-transgender students.

[CDAK 216]

53 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Granted, its a bit of a bummer for the runner up, but I'm not seeing total domination by those two runners.

I'm ambivalent on whether legislation is advisable. Like you, I don't think this is a widespread problem. Maybe letting the UIL and other governing bodies handle is the right approach because they can revisit their rules frequently. But I don't think we need to wait for "total domination" before acknowledging any problem.

It's an issue for more than just the runner-up in a race. It's an issue for the girl that got third. It's an issue for the girl that got fourth. It's an issue for the girl that didn't qualify for the state finals. It's a problem for the girl who gets cut and otherwise would be the 12th woman on her high school basketball team. 

[Ted Lange 16052]

1 hour ago, GRHorn said:

You need to calm down.

Is this something that should be legislated? Probably not. I doubt it's that prevalent, although my kids aren't old enough yet to play with kids that are transitioning.

Your last paragraph explains why you're so worked up. You're one of those duds that has to see everything through a political lens and you're agitated because this is probably effective. If you ask 100 people on the street if people born biologically female, but transitioning to male, should play women's or girl's sports the overwhelming majority would say no.

If you want to be mad at anybody you should be mad at Joe Biden for being such an exceptional man and leader that his adversaries have to go to such lengths to challenge his brilliance.

Ask 100 if weed should be legal or if buying assulat rifles should be legal.  Are we now judging things by ludicrous man on the street interviews...  not cloak room topics at all.   Moron. 

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

Mob rule all of a sudden bad?

[GRHorn 105]

4 hours ago, Ted Lange said:

Ask 100 if weed should be legal or if buying assulat rifles should be legal.  Are we now judging things by ludicrous man on the street interviews...  not cloak room topics at all.   Moron. 

Bless your heart. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

8 hours ago, UT_OB1 said:

Jesus Christ. They took first and second in state. As sophomores. Are you being intentionally obtuse?  
 

I joke that they are slow. They clearly aren’t Shaggy fast, but mid 11s wouldn’t set the world on fire in the boys at state.  Boys that can run mid 11s are a dime a dozen. It will take first in the girls division.  

 

Transgender high school sophomores Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood came in first and second place, respectively, in the 100-meter race at the State Open Finals June 4, angering some parents who complained they had a competitive advantage over non-transgender students.

Did you read the post you quoted? 

As mentioned, the original article I  read on this stated that they had 18 titles, another, posted here said 15.  That appears to be a gross overstatement designed to create the impression that these two are dominating CT track.  They're not.

They've won some.  They've lost some.  They're not dominating!!111!11 CT track to the exclusion of all other athletes.  In 2019, Yearwood came in 4th in the 100 and Miller scratched.

If you look at that, they both won some and lost some.  Yearwood lost a lot.  Miller less so.  So maybe there's talented trans and less talented trans and they aren't automatically dominating because of their birth gender.

I concede that it sucks for the runner up, 

But my original question here was posed to Sack about "child lacrosse."

Edited April 13, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

3 is a gross overstatement?

And Miller did compete in boys track before her transition at the same School  

*saw immac post. My bad

Edited April 13, 2021 by ChickenSandwich

[Ghost of LL 15492]

11 hours ago, GRHorn said:

You need to calm down.

Is this something that should be legislated? Probably not. I doubt it's that prevalent, although my kids aren't old enough yet to play with kids that are transitioning.

Your last paragraph explains why you're so worked up. You're one of those duds that has to see everything through a political lens and you're agitated because this is probably effective. If you ask 100 people on the street if people born biologically female, but transitioning to male, should play women's or girl's sports the overwhelming majority would say no.

If you want to be mad at anybody you should be mad at Joe Biden for being such an exceptional man and leader that his adversaries have to go to such lengths to challenge his brilliance.

Uh, yeah--legislation is generally seen through a political lens.

This isn't a serious issue.  Nobody can seriously pretend that the Texas Legislature needs to spend even a nanosecond on this because some transgender kid won a state championship in Connecticut.

So since this isn't a serious issue, I think it's fair to consider why we're taking up this non-serious issue.  And it's apparent.  It's the standard Republican playbook of finding an "other" against whom it can rally its base.  In 2016, it was immigrants.  In 2012, it was gays.  In the 1980s and 90s, it was black people.  it's the standard Republican playbook because that's how they keep their base of poor, uneducated white people vote for people who don't give a fuck about them and only vote for tax cuts for the rich and fewer regulations for corporations.  

Why am I so "worked up" about this one?  Because it's particularly disgusting.  It literally targets children.  Children who are, it must be pointed out, already vulnerable.  Transgender kids are much more likely to suffer from depression, and they're much more likely to attempt suicide.  So do you think that villainizing them and trying to exclude them from extracurricular activities is likely to mitigate that?  Or do you think it's likely to make that worse?

It's fucking despicable.  "Calm down"?  How about you and your entire despicable party go fuck yourselves.

[Mole 4320]

Two threads on this and still no Andy Kaufman.

A few other loosely related thoughts.

1. The culture war is exhausting. I’m tired of manufacturing reasons to hate everyone around issues that I only marginally understand. We have enough organic reasons to hate that I understand as it is.

2. Considering the rough go that trans kids can have, there’s a certain dark irony in this becoming a flashpoint for having an athletic advantage. There are no doubt fairness and competitive issues to work through, but the framing of this seems bizarre, particularly for kids sports.

3. There’s no doubt some intuitive unfairness when physically dominant kids use their dominance athletically. Clear rules are needed, but establishing broad standards for things that are mostly edge cases seems unproductive unless the goal is to score points in the culture war. In that case, congrats.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Mole

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

 

11 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I can look to nature for example of animals that thrive on eating their own feces, but I don't try to build a youth sports league around the concept. 

For all we know, perhaps we are becoming parthenogenetic (sp?)  like tardigrades.

The Chicago Water Bears will rule the league....

 

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

What excuse should I have made when I was getting stomped by physically superior guys in varsity FB games? Unfair genetics because they were bigger and stronger?

This is a solution in search of a problem.

[Born to Run 6568]

Agreed.  Just run testosterone levels and structure the divisions on that stratification.  If you don't want to call them boys and girls, just figure out the threshold on an objective lab measure to draw the line. 
 
We are already seeing issues in some of the club teams we play. Particularly one of the Lonestar teams. 

What issues?

My son is in Lonestar and they scrimmage an older girls team that regularly whips thier ass. Why? Because they want competition. They have better discipline, knowledge of the game and are plenty physical. Athletes and club programs strive to create the best players.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

Passing any law is a solution looking for a problem. Or more precisely, its a solution looking for a political donation. And even if it is a problem in one youth sports league, a similar problem always exists in all. We've all seen the little league world series where one player is 6 foot, 180 lb and someone else is 5 foot, 110.

At the end of the day, youth sports should be based on the sex of the child not their gender.  Are children allowed to change their sex with either surgery or hormone replacement? Admittedly I'm ignorant of this.

Now how the NCAA, Olympics and pro sports want to handle this question, it's their business.

[Don Johnson 4745]

15 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What excuse should I have made when I was getting stomped by physically superior guys in varsity FB games? Unfair genetics because they were bigger and stronger?

Using that logic, there's absolutely no reason to have separate male and female sports.  Throw them all in the same group and let the cream rise to the top.  No excuses when the teams are 90%+ male.

[workswithseed 2037]

6 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Using that logic, there's absolutely no reason to have separate male and female sports.  Throw them all in the same group and let the cream rise to the top.  No excuses when the teams are 90%+ male.

Not too many people watch women's sports as it is, so maybe this is for the better.

[Royalfan5 2348]

I will say a bunch of you folks being all concerned were never a 5'6 105 freshman pressed into varsity action because of low numbers in 8-man football. That shit is way the fuck more lopsided than any of the shit folks are wringing their hands about here. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, Don Johnson said:

Using that logic, there's absolutely no reason to have separate male and female sports.

You're blowing up the question.

Since trans girls aren't just dominating girls' atheltics all over the place and this is JUST a matter of a small handful of individual situations, we don't need to make big sweeping decisions about the entire structure.

[JimmyJames 12271]

18 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

In addition to the pure hatefulness of it all, exactly what here demands a legislative solution?  Why not just let the sanctioning bodies figure it out?

I don't recall any legislator trying to break up Plano ISD schools, or keep Southlake or Allen or the private Jesus schools from recruiting.

Now that this post is rightfully in the cloak room I’m free to post here the correct answer which is found in the very first clause of your post.

As Brisket is fond of saying the cruelty is the point and the only platform the Republican Party has anymore is hatred to others. 
 

Hell they’re aren’t even hiding it anymore. Tucker is on a national show talking about and doubling down on the great replacement theory. He’s not doing that because his audience disagrees. They definitely think they are being replaced by others and these bullshit transgender bills are just another flank in their pathetic snowflake culture war. 
 

The Republican Party is a scared racist fascist crowd of absolutely pathetic cowards. This is just yet another log on that fire. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by JimmyJames