ERCOT Urging For Energy Conservation

[Armybrat 40848]

Well then, maybe the State should take over the power grid system - kinda like Austin Energy has done locally.

What could go wrong? 😉
 

ETA: And let aggy run it like they do TXDOT.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Armybrat

[Brisketexan 105142]

3 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Well then, maybe the State should take over the power grid system - kinda like Austin Energy has done locally.

What could go wrong? 😉
 

ETA: And let aggy run it like they do TXDOT.

Well, electric utilities WERE run as a public utility for a long time, and it worked pretty well.  But again, there's a solution that is actually really moderate -- the design I suggested, which is functionally our current system, but with a capacity function.  We all  pay a few percentage points more on our bill to have additional capacity available as insurance.  Just like my monthly mortgage payment includes a few percentage points of extra cost to pay for homeowners insurance.

Think of it this way: mortgage lenders have their money secured by an asset (your house). They would be breaching their fiduciary duty to their shareholders if they DIDN'T require insurance on that asset.  Hmm, MAYBE we oughta take a similar approach?

[Armybrat 40848]

That’ll work, but you know the pols would demand a % for themselves.

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

5 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It was SOLD as "cheaper power for everyone."  But they left out the big * at the end of "but, ummm, maybe not very reliable, and SUPER expensive if the market gets too constrained."  

Too bad the bolded part is a bunch of bullshit when you compare to all our neighboring states.  As of May, TX electricity rates are on average 6% higher than our four neighbors.

https://www.saveonenergy.com/electricity-rates/

[Brisketexan 105142]

Quote

AUSTIN, Texas — Pablo Vegas, a utility executive who lives in Ohio, will be the new leader of Texas’ main power grid operator, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas. ERCOT’s board announced Vegas’ hiring Tuesday.

I don't have a lot of intel on him......but that's an all-time awesome name.  Pablo Vegas and Ron Mexico should totally party together.  Maybe Joey Freshwater could tag along.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Brisketexan

[MAUFRAIS 6629]

Pablo honey. Come back to Florida.

[Michael Knight 12979]

Quote

"ERCOT’s board of directors did not disclose how much Vegas would be paid. Magness told lawmakers he had earned $803,000 annually."

803k a year to fuck over Texas residents

 

https://www.kut.org/energy-environment/2022-08-16/pablo-vegas-a-utility-executive-in-ohio-named-ercots-new-ceo?fbclid=IwAR1A4u596tGSk_-QxZEQMDi17Rc0AOZ2M8zFMLJTCvWD04Xch5mJO9rkbJY

[Samson's Wig 3192]

I'm fully onboard with the notion that ERCOT has its hands tied and the state lege, along with private interests who set up this system, are at fault for creating what is at best a tenuous power supply.  Locally in Austin, however, the city seems to get a complete pass for their actions during and after Uri.  It wasn't the grid that caused the problems here.  It was the absolute fucking moron government employees who run our power and water supply.   While we all bash the shortcomings of the free market system throughout TX, let's not forget about the "nationalized" system in Austin for electricity and water, which is even worse than what the rest of the state is dealing with.  None of this shit is working like it should, and like with most things the solution likely falls somewhere in the middle.

[Armybrat 40848]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I don't have a lot of intel on him......but that's an all-time awesome name.  Pablo Vegas and Ron Mexico should totally party together.  Maybe Joey Freshwater could tag along.

Better than Pablo Escobar.

Romeo Rose might fit in there somewhere.

[Kringelbert Fishtybuns 943]

2 hours ago, Samson's Wig said:

I'm fully onboard with the notion that ERCOT has its hands tied and the state lege, along with private interests who set up this system, are at fault for creating what is at best a tenuous power supply.  Locally in Austin, however, the city seems to get a complete pass for their actions during and after Uri.  It wasn't the grid that caused the problems here.  It was the absolute fucking moron government employees who run our power and water supply.   While we all bash the shortcomings of the free market system throughout TX, let's not forget about the "nationalized" system in Austin for electricity and water, which is even worse than what the rest of the state is dealing with.  None of this shit is working like it should, and like with most things the solution likely falls somewhere in the middle.

As shitty as they can be sometimes, AE made out like bandits because they didn’t have a derate/unit trip the whole week.  They were one of two generators that ended up in the black for the whole event.  

It absolutely was the grid failure that was the root cause for most of the problems here - including exposing the idiots at Austin Water.  There were some transmission issues, but they weren’t that long in duration given the severity of the storm.

Nobody defends Austin Water as they are fucktards.

[Captainant 27669]

2 hours ago, Samson's Wig said:

While we all bash the shortcomings of the free market system throughout TX, let's not forget about the "nationalized" system in Austin for electricity and water, which is even worse than what the rest of the state is dealing with.  None of this shit is working like it should, and like with most things the solution likely falls somewhere in the middle.

I gotta disagree with your framing man - publicly owned utilities isn't "nationalized". It's the norm. Texas' privatized utility system has had nothing but negative effects on the downstream consumers who are subject to a state-sanctioned monopoly that is purely profit driven with no requirement to plan for severe events.

It shouldn't be on Joe Consumer to build his own durability into his home - the utility and grid operators are supposed to be covering that. They're shirking that responsibility down to the individual so that they can reap even larger profit margins with the reduced overhead costs. 

You don't go to the gas pump with a fucking hydrometer to make sure you're getting quality fuel - you have an expectation of getting an immediately usable product. I really don't understand this reflexive need to cover for these greedy and maintenance-averse operators.

[StassneyHorn 6576]

Pablo Vegas from Ohio sounds like someone in witness protection.

[Degenerate Gardner 4085]

7 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

Pablo Vegas from Ohio sounds like someone in witness protection.

Or a Mike Vick alter ego.

[Samson's Wig 3192]

56 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I gotta disagree with your framing man - publicly owned utilities isn't "nationalized". It's the norm. Texas' privatized utility system has had nothing but negative effects on the downstream consumers who are subject to a state-sanctioned monopoly that is purely profit driven with no requirement to plan for severe events.

It shouldn't be on Joe Consumer to build his own durability into his home - the utility and grid operators are supposed to be covering that. They're shirking that responsibility down to the individual so that they can reap even larger profit margins with the reduced overhead costs. 

You don't go to the gas pump with a fucking hydrometer to make sure you're getting quality fuel - you have an expectation of getting an immediately usable product. I really don't understand this reflexive need to cover for these greedy and maintenance-averse operators.

I put it in quotes in an attempt to make clear that I was using the word to contextualize it against the free market set up in most of the rest of the state, where Texans actually have options on where they buy their power.  The main point being, neither way works that well.  

[Samson's Wig 3192]

1 hour ago, Kringelbert Fishtybuns said:

As shitty as they can be sometimes, AE made out like bandits because they didn’t have a derate/unit trip the whole week.  They were one of two generators that ended up in the black for the whole event.  

It absolutely was the grid failure that was the root cause for most of the problems here - including exposing the idiots at Austin Water.  There were some transmission issues, but they weren’t that long in duration given the severity of the storm.

Nobody defends Austin Water as they are fucktards.

Selective memory?  AE couldn't figure out how to turn the power back on after turning it off for what was supposed to be a rolling blackout.  The grid didn't fail in Austin.  AE did.  The fact they saved money by not providing power to over half the city for over a week is cold comfort (pun intended), and a really odd thing to bring up as a positive point for AE.  Austin was without power longer than any other major city in the state.  That wasn't the grid.  People died in this town because public utilities, like other government departments, tend to attract and hire the absolute bottom of the barrel of functional human beings.  It's not any better than people dying due to private industry worshiping the almighty dollar at all cost. They all suck.  But some can't seem to bring themselves to point blame where it is very much warranted, I suppose for political reasons.  There's plenty to go around and AE deserves their fair share along with ERCOT, state government, and private energy companies.

And yes, agreed, Austin Water is 100% a bunch of fucktards. 

[Kringelbert Fishtybuns 943]

11 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

Selective memory?  AE couldn't figure out how to turn the power back on after turning it off for what was supposed to be a rolling blackout.  The grid didn't fail in Austin.  AE did.  The fact they saved money by not providing power to over half the city for over a week is cold comfort (pun intended), and a really odd thing to bring up as a positive point for AE.  Austin was without power longer than any other major city in the state.  That wasn't the grid.  People died in this town because public utilities, like other government departments, tend to attract and hire the absolute bottom of the barrel of functional human beings.  It's not any better than people dying due to private industry worshiping the almighty dollar at all cost. They all suck.  But some can't seem to bring themselves to point blame where it is very much warranted, I suppose for political reasons.  There's plenty to go around and AE deserves their fair share along with ERCOT, state government, and private energy companies.

And yes, agreed, Austin Water is 100% a bunch of fucktards. 

Perhaps you are combining the boil notice onto the end of the power outage, but based on this post - I don’t think you understand what happened during the storm with regards to generation/load shedding/ERCOT response. AE couldn’t bring more customers back online faster (late Tuesday) because the grid couldn’t sustain the demand without risk of dropping again.  People were starting to get stuff back on Wednesday.  It wasn’t until power began to be restored that transmission issues could be fixed (Wed/Thurs).

I am not defending the Public Utilities of old or AE in general.  They suck ass at maintaining transmission lines and are over susceptible to NIMBY pressure in line clearance.  I don’t think AE is the bad guy on this one.

[Dahobbs 17534]

1 hour ago, Samson's Wig said:

Selective memory?  AE couldn't figure out how to turn the power back on after turning it off for what was supposed to be a rolling blackout.  The grid didn't fail in Austin.  AE did.  The fact they saved money by not providing power to over half the city for over a week is cold comfort (pun intended), and a really odd thing to bring up as a positive point for AE.  Austin was without power longer than any other major city in the state.  

I don't think this is true and I'm not sure why you're under this impression. Large swaths of Houston didn't have power until 19th (Friday). I know my house didn't get power until late on the 18th. I don't recall a significant portion of Austin being without power longer than any other major city. 

[Updawg 2266]

Yeah. I’ve don’t remember anything about AE not being able to turn it back on. I think it was just a matter of the once you got chosen to lose power you lost it for a while no matter where you were. There wasn’t much roaming going on


Austin water was a whole different mess

Luckily we are pedernales electric and never lost power. But unfortunately austin water and we’re some of the last to get water back.

[Dahobbs 17534]

29 minutes ago, Updawg said:

Yeah. I’ve don’t remember anything about AE not being able to turn it back on. I think it was just a matter of the once you got chosen to lose power you lost it for a while no matter where you were. There wasn’t much roaming going on


Austin water was a whole different mess

Luckily we are pedernales electric and never lost power. But unfortunately austin water and we’re some of the last to get water back.

Yeah. I think he is confused because the blackouts were supposed to be rolling. But ERCOT didn't have sufficient power to have that happened so it essentially didn't. It wasn't an Austin specific problem. 

[dcar00 14210]

6 hours ago, Samson's Wig said:

I'm fully onboard with the notion that ERCOT has its hands tied and the state lege, along with private interests who set up this system, are at fault for creating what is at best a tenuous power supply.  Locally in Austin, however, the city seems to get a complete pass for their actions during and after Uri.  It wasn't the grid that caused the problems here.  It was the absolute fucking moron government employees who run our power and water supply.   While we all bash the shortcomings of the free market system throughout TX, let's not forget about the "nationalized" system in Austin for electricity and water, which is even worse than what the rest of the state is dealing with.  None of this shit is working like it should, and like with most things the solution likely falls somewhere in the middle.

 

22 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Yeah. I think he is confused because the blackouts were supposed to be rolling. But ERCOT didn't have sufficient power to have that happened so it essentially didn't. It wasn't an Austin specific problem. 

I was on the short end of the stick on AE.  They had major issues in our area related to old equipment failing and not being able to locate the transformer and switches.  they told me that on the phone specifically.  It wasn't the rolling issue for me and many others.

that said, ERCOT and the state fucked up big time, obviously. 

 

[atomheartbevo 89672]

1 hour ago, Updawg said:

Austin water was a whole different mess

Austin Water was an institutional problem/failure that had to do with procedures that hadn't been tried/tested in many years, and there was a breakdown in communications, and people didn't know how to flip a fucking 52 year-old switch..

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/austin-water-outage-single-gear-switch-report/269-c0aee9ce-418c-4669-9d1a-ca76f8abbffd

Austin Water outage impacted by a single gear switch, report says

Staff members did not know how to operate a 52-year-old switch that would have restored power to the plant

Author: KVUE News Staff

Published: 10:28 AM CST March 1, 2021

Problems with the power outage at the Ullrich Water Treatment Plant that in part eventually led to a boil water notice across the city were traced back to an old gear switch staff members did not know how to operate, according to a report by KVUE's news partners at the Austin American-Statesman.

The Statesman reported that state regulations force the plant to have a backup power source or a substantial amount of water reserves in the event of an unexpected shutdown, both of which the Ullrich plant has.

But, according to the report, a tree limb fell on an electric line feeding the substation that powers Ullrich, which is the city's biggest water treatment plant. On Feb. 17, those backups should have kicked into gear to keep the facility operating.

So, what happened?

The report states no one on-site that day knew how to operate a 52-year-old gear switch that would have restored power. As a result, the facility went dark for three hours. It stalled about half of Austin's potable water production and added even more pain to the winter weather crisis that was already leaving thousands of Austinites without electricity.

According to the Statesman, the outage caused the plant to operate below capacity for more than 10 hours. During this time, water was quickly drained from the water reserves as thousands of pipes and water mains were burst across the city.

The failure at the Ullrich Water Treatment Plant led to a boil water notice that lasted several days and even led to evacuations at St. David's South Austin Medical Center.

 

 

[AUS-97HORN 11763]

its a double combination of things guys,

other cities (Allen for sure, my brother lives there), did get rolling blackouts.

what fucked Austin over is AE never marked out which grids had DEDICATED transmission lines to emergency service buildings (hospitals, EMS, Fire/Police, nursing homes)  which were, rightlyfully, given priority.

Yes, obviously a hospital should have power... but that also meant 8 blocks in the 4 cardinal directions away from the hospital were marked as being being on the same priority grid

I have a friend (who is a surly lurker) who lived very close to 45th & Bull Creek. He never lost power.  I guess because he was either semi-close to Austin Fire 12 (which would have been roughly 1km away), or the group of hospitals around 35th. 

So huge swaths of Austin - especially the downtown area, were given priority full power because they were marked as being on an emergency grid.     And because those huge swaths were using all the allocated power Austin was given, AE could never fucking implement rolling blackouts. 

 

The point is, that is FULLY on AE.   They either never did disaster planning to see what would happen if they needed to turn off what was marked as non-emergency grids, or they were too fucking lazy to properly list, mark and dedicate hard power to the obvious priority buildings in the city. 

so instead they KNEW the area around 35th & Lamar contained like 10 hospital areas, along with the area around I35 with Seton/Dell so they left the lights on for everyone in a huge box that might have been as large as  Mopac being the west end, Just East of I35 being the East end and somewhere north of 45th, probably 2222 and somewhere South probably into the West Campus/Dean Keaton area

and that same fuckup was the same for every single fire, police, EMS station in the rest of the fucking city.    AE knew an emergency service was on a specific grid, but they didnt sub-divide the grids small enough, resulting in 40% of the city being fucked for 2-3 days.  while the rest either never lost power, or lost it sparingly

 

[Dahobbs 17534]

19 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

its a double combination of things guys,

other cities (Allen for sure, my brother lives there), did get rolling blackouts.

what fucked Austin over is AE never marked out which grids had DEDICATED transmission lines to emergency service buildings (hospitals, EMS, Fire/Police, nursing homes)  which were, rightlyfully, given priority.

Yes, obviously a hospital should have power... but that also meant 8 blocks in the 4 cardinal directions away from the hospital were marked as being being on the same priority grid

I have a friend (who is a surly lurker) who lived very close to 45th & Bull Creek. He never lost power.  I guess because he was either semi-close to Austin Fire 12 (which would have been roughly 1km away), or the group of hospitals around 35th. 

So huge swaths of Austin - especially the downtown area, were given priority full power because they were marked as being on an emergency grid.     And because those huge swaths were using all the allocated power Austin was given, AE could never fucking implement rolling blackouts. 

 

The point is, that is FULLY on AE.   They either never did disaster planning to see what would happen if they needed to turn off what was marked as non-emergency grids, or they were too fucking lazy to properly list, mark and dedicate hard power to the obvious priority buildings in the city. 

so instead they KNEW the area around 35th & Lamar contained like 10 hospital areas, along with the area around I35 with Seton/Dell so they left the lights on for everyone in a huge box that might have been as large as  Mopac being the west end, Just East of I35 being the East end and somewhere north of 45th, probably 2222 and somewhere South probably into the West Campus/Dean Keaton area

and that same fuckup was the same for every single fire, police, EMS station in the rest of the fucking city.    AE knew an emergency service was on a specific grid, but they didnt sub-divide the grids small enough, resulting in 40% of the city being fucked for 2-3 days.  while the rest either never lost power, or lost it sparingly

 

Maybe. But that wasn't Austin specific. I was without power the whole time in Houston. A shit load of people in other cities had the same problem. 

[texasdago 7573]

9 hours ago, MAUFRAIS said:

Pablo honey. Come back to Florida.

Oh man, that's funny 

[Biff Tannen 45687]

2 hours ago, AUS-97HORN said:

its a double combination of things guys,

other cities (Allen for sure, my brother lives there), did get rolling blackouts.

what fucked Austin over is AE never marked out which grids had DEDICATED transmission lines to emergency service buildings (hospitals, EMS, Fire/Police, nursing homes)  which were, rightlyfully, given priority.

Yes, obviously a hospital should have power... but that also meant 8 blocks in the 4 cardinal directions away from the hospital were marked as being being on the same priority grid

I have a friend (who is a surly lurker) who lived very close to 45th & Bull Creek. He never lost power.  I guess because he was either semi-close to Austin Fire 12 (which would have been roughly 1km away), or the group of hospitals around 35th. 

So huge swaths of Austin - especially the downtown area, were given priority full power because they were marked as being on an emergency grid.     And because those huge swaths were using all the allocated power Austin was given, AE could never fucking implement rolling blackouts. 

 

The point is, that is FULLY on AE.   They either never did disaster planning to see what would happen if they needed to turn off what was marked as non-emergency grids, or they were too fucking lazy to properly list, mark and dedicate hard power to the obvious priority buildings in the city. 

so instead they KNEW the area around 35th & Lamar contained like 10 hospital areas, along with the area around I35 with Seton/Dell so they left the lights on for everyone in a huge box that might have been as large as  Mopac being the west end, Just East of I35 being the East end and somewhere north of 45th, probably 2222 and somewhere South probably into the West Campus/Dean Keaton area

and that same fuckup was the same for every single fire, police, EMS station in the rest of the fucking city.    AE knew an emergency service was on a specific grid, but they didnt sub-divide the grids small enough, resulting in 40% of the city being fucked for 2-3 days.  while the rest either never lost power, or lost it sparingly

 

[StassneyHorn 6576]

Never managed to lose power during the ice storm, place is near stassney and emerald forest. I always contributed it to being close to the mental health hospital nearby. However Austin Water’s fuckups were immaculate, easily preventable, and is the sole reason I have an alcohol problem.Nothing else.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

What a lackluster hire.

[TKthunder2 4991]

4 hours ago, AUS-97HORN said:

its a double combination of things guys,

other cities (Allen for sure, my brother lives there), did get rolling blackouts.

what fucked Austin over is AE never marked out which grids had DEDICATED transmission lines to emergency service buildings (hospitals, EMS, Fire/Police, nursing homes)  which were, rightlyfully, given priority.

Yes, obviously a hospital should have power... but that also meant 8 blocks in the 4 cardinal directions away from the hospital were marked as being being on the same priority grid

I have a friend (who is a surly lurker) who lived very close to 45th & Bull Creek. He never lost power.  I guess because he was either semi-close to Austin Fire 12 (which would have been roughly 1km away), or the group of hospitals around 35th. 

So huge swaths of Austin - especially the downtown area, were given priority full power because they were marked as being on an emergency grid.     And because those huge swaths were using all the allocated power Austin was given, AE could never fucking implement rolling blackouts. 

 

The point is, that is FULLY on AE.   They either never did disaster planning to see what would happen if they needed to turn off what was marked as non-emergency grids, or they were too fucking lazy to properly list, mark and dedicate hard power to the obvious priority buildings in the city. 

so instead they KNEW the area around 35th & Lamar contained like 10 hospital areas, along with the area around I35 with Seton/Dell so they left the lights on for everyone in a huge box that might have been as large as  Mopac being the west end, Just East of I35 being the East end and somewhere north of 45th, probably 2222 and somewhere South probably into the West Campus/Dean Keaton area

and that same fuckup was the same for every single fire, police, EMS station in the rest of the fucking city.    AE knew an emergency service was on a specific grid, but they didnt sub-divide the grids small enough, resulting in 40% of the city being fucked for 2-3 days.  while the rest either never lost power, or lost it sparingly

 

Austin Energy had a half billion dollar biomass plant in Nacogdoches that recently bought in 2019 (because they had to in order to get out of a nearly criminally bad contract they royally fucked up when drawing it up https://www.kxan.com/investigations/austins-biomass-power-plant-idled-again-during-mid-june-energy-crunch/ )

that they couldn’t get turned on to produce ANY electricity during the storm. They had also decommissioned two “low efficiency” but still fully operational power generators at Decker just 3 month previously with no plans for replacing them or their capacity (basically being green but cutting costly generation infrastructure just like everyone on here is complaining about private power companies doing the same thing).

On the small but still important side of things, AE also had a shit ton of untrimmed vegetation that fucked with lines, old/outdated infrastructure that should have been replaced (like transformers) that also fucked people over.

They also have no permanent plan towards burying any power lines even in high vegetation/wildfire risk areas where it would be extremely advantageous or even when neighborhoods and HOAs have offered to cover the cost (since that wouldn’t be fair somehow). The only ones that do get buried are either downtown/adjacent or East side in council favored projects like Mueller.

No power company is perfect, but Austin Energy should not be getting a pass on their lack of preparation for the winter storm. Last I heard (to lazy to site my sources) they are still planning on mothballing the Nacogdoches plant this winter where it can’t be easily spun up and they still have not replaced the capacity at the Decker plant and despite having nearly $1 billion in reserves previously to spend on infrastructure improvements (like new generators, transformers, and buried power lines) they have made few to any improvements until the backlash of the winter storm forced them to put on a show for the rest of the year, and now that fund is rapidly being depleted since they have been running a deficit since COVID and are asking to increase rates despite already being the highest priced provider in the region.

Private power and the State/ERCOT deserve the scorn they get on here, but Austin Energy shouldn’t be exempt just because of “my team” CR bullshit reasons.  Fuck them all, fix this shit.

[Captainant 27669]

7 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

Private power and the State/ERCOT deserve the scorn they get on here, but Austin Energy shouldn’t be exempt just because of “my team” CR bullshit reasons.  Fuck them all, fix this shit.

It's more of a "hey let's not focus on a single city that's doing its own thing being below standard when 99% of the rest of the state is also fucked up"

Deflection to a whatabout to eat up the oxygen in the conversation is a CLASSIC tactic of people who don't actually want to talk about the problem. It ain't the Austin energy thread, my power was out for 3 days in Houston during the freeze - AE ain't got shit to do with that. 

[Armybrat 40848]

We never lost power here in Brushy Creek by Round Rock.

[Brew 3049]

Reading through this thread, seems like utilities is the place where the government may actually be able to run things better than the private sector. Living under the TVA umbrella with all municipal utilities has been a bonus. Several utilities in KY tried to spin out of the TVA system and built their own power generation plants and they have been killed financially. They are sitting on massive debt that they can’t pay, the local cities (all fairly small) signed off on the bond issues and are on the hook, and it’s been one issue after another with them. We did some price consulting for them a few years back and it was clear then that there was a major problem coming.

[fattyflattie 4639]

14 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

We never lost power here in Brushy Creek by Round Rock.

West side of Houston. Lost power for 11 hours to the minute on the last day of freeze.   Had friends that were out for several days. 

[Captainant 27669]

14 minutes ago, Brew said:

Reading through this thread, seems like utilities is the place where the government may actually be able to run things better than the private sector. Living under the TVA umbrella with all municipal utilities has been a bonus. Several utilities in KY tried to spin out of the TVA system and built their own power generation plants and they have been killed financially. They are sitting on massive debt that they can’t pay, the local cities (all fairly small) signed off on the bond issues and are on the hook, and it’s been one issue after another with them. We did some price consulting for them a few years back and it was clear then that there was a major problem coming.

Yes but what you aren't considering is all the individuals who were able to enrich themselves by creating a private entity, giving themselves fat paychecks and bonuses for their troubles, and then bouncing when shit goes underwater. They get to privatize the profits, and socialize the losses! What's not to love?

[Brisketexan 105142]

22 minutes ago, Brew said:

Reading through this thread, seems like utilities is the place where the government may actually be able to run things better than the private sector. Living under the TVA umbrella with all municipal utilities has been a bonus. Several utilities in KY tried to spin out of the TVA system and built their own power generation plants and they have been killed financially. They are sitting on massive debt that they can’t pay, the local cities (all fairly small) signed off on the bond issues and are on the hook, and it’s been one issue after another with them. We did some price consulting for them a few years back and it was clear then that there was a major problem coming.

 

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Yes but what you aren't considering is all the individuals who were able to enrich themselves by creating a private entity, giving themselves fat paychecks and bonuses for their troubles, and then bouncing when shit goes underwater. They get to privatize the profits, and socialize the losses! What's not to love?

While I realize it seems like it was a long time ago, a lot of folks forget that we had a hybrid system that actually worked reasonably well.  Utilities were investor-owned.  They made profit, and yielded a rate of return for the company and its investors.  It wasn't huge, but it wasn't small, and it was guaranteed, making them a sound investment for people who wanted a safe, moderate yield investment.  Why?  Because they were well-regulated.  They had an obligation to serve certain service areas, and they were allowed to set rates that recovered 1) their actual costs (O&M, fuel consumed, etc.) and 2) a reasonable rate of return (typically around 8%) on invested capital that was used and useful in providing utility services (e.g., if a company spent $500 million to build a generation facility, its rate would include an 8% rate of return on that investment).

It struck a balance.  But balance is a dirty word these days, so there we are.

[fattyflattie 4639]

No one interested in margins that can't even keep up current inflation.  

[Brisketexan 105142]

5 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

No one interested in margins that can't even keep up current inflation.  

Of course not.  That's why the ratemaking process allowed the utility to go back to the regulatory authority to adjust their rate of return.

[fattyflattie 4639]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Of course not.  That's why the ratemaking process allowed the utility to go back to the regulatory authority to adjust their rate of return.

Question.  Have seen posts saying we pay 20% less than others, have seen posts saying all of our neighbors have cheaper energy.  What is your thoughts on expected costs (increase or decrease) we would bear if this was set up the way you want?

[TKthunder2 4991]

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

It's more of a "hey let's not focus on a single city that's doing its own thing being below standard when 99% of the rest of the state is also fucked up"

Deflection to a whatabout to eat up the oxygen in the conversation is a CLASSIC tactic of people who don't actually want to talk about the problem. It ain't the Austin energy thread, my power was out for 3 days in Houston during the freeze - AE ain't got shit to do with that. 

This is a thread about ERCOT, talking about private power producers is okay, Austin Energy not okay. Let’s not focus when the city we like does the same thing as the private power producers we don’t like (like not keep enough quick start capacity on hand because it’s expensive) because it doesn’t fit our narrative.

If the narrative is more regulation and municipal owned/operated is better then why is our most local example such a shit show?  I’d rather see community owned co-ops personally myself.

[Brisketexan 105142]

8 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Question.  Have seen posts saying we pay 20% less than others, have seen posts saying all of our neighbors have cheaper energy.  What is your thoughts on expected costs (increase or decrease) we would bear if this was set up the way you want?

Generally speaking, we'd likely be on par with most of our neighbors -- within a single digit percentage point.

And one thing that the energy cost discussion is failing to take into account is how much are costs are TODAY, and how much they are going to be in the future.  First, we are going to be dealing with a functional "surcharge" for the costs of the 2021 event for 20-30 years to come.  Thus, my analogy about how opting out of homeowners insurance saves you money....until it doesn't, and you have to finance the $300k worth of repairs/rehab that insurance would have paid for.  Second, in order to catch up to the standards of reliability and getting energy where it's needed, the ERCOT system is going to have to take in billions and billions in transmission infrastructure investment, which cost will be passed on to ratepayers.  So, we also "saved money" on deferred investment in infrastructure....and now the bill is coming due.  I expect that within 5 years, under our CURRENT system, we'll end up with rates toward the more expensive end, nationally.

2 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

I’d rather see community owned co-ops personally myself.

The bankrupt Brazos Electric Cooperative, bankrupted by the 2021 storm, would like a word.

[fattyflattie 4639]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

So, we also "saved money" on deferred investment in infrastructure....and now the bill is coming due.  I expect that within 5 years, under our CURRENT system, we'll end up with rates toward the more expensive end, nationally.

We have a massive bloc of our population that can barely afford the rates we currently have.  No one on this board will notice a $40 bump.   And, would single digit increase (let’s use 9% worst case) even get us there?   Infrastructure $$$, as you know, doesn’t go that far.  

[Brisketexan 105142]

5 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

We have a massive bloc of our population that can barely afford the rates we currently have.  No one on this board will notice a $40 bump.   And, would single digit increase (let’s use 9% worst case) even get us there?   Infrastructure $$$, as you know, doesn’t go that far.  

There has always been a portion of the population that can barely afford the rates we have.  That has been true my entire lifetime.  And I'm absolutely NOT without sympathy on that point.  What percentage will get us there on infrastructure?  I don't know.  But our PAST decision, to go with the "super-duper money-saving" market design that we had?  That's already responsible for 14% increase, that will be with us for DECADES:

Quote

The 13 Investigates team set out to calculate how much of that bill Texans can expect to pay and found the cost was so high that state lawmakers allowed gas and electric companies to spread them out over decades.

Alison Silverstein, an independent energy consultant, said electric consumers can expect to pay 14% more on their electric bills. For the average Texas electric consumer, that is an extra $240 annually.

"I don't think Texans are going to forget about this one," said Silverstein, who previously worked as a senior advisor at the Public Utility Commission of Texas and the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. "I think people here are going to carry the scars, and they're going to be pissed off for a really long time."

We're already paying a 14% "this market design is shitty" tax.  And like the homeowner who got burned by not having insurance when he had a house fire, we're going to take steps to add insurance, which will cost even more (the cost of developing more transmission, winterizing, etc.).  Because that will likely be below another 14% "we stuck with the shitty market design unchanged" tax when this sort of weather event happens again, and maybe we'll also avoid killing hundreds of people.

Public utilities and basic infrastructure are the lifeblood of a society and yes, an economy.  We have robust manufacturing and economic activity because we have reliable power, running water, and the rule of law (three reasons why there are few gleaming modern factories in Honduras, for example).  Those things cost money, there's no way around it.

[Dahobbs 17534]

13 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

We have a massive bloc of our population that can barely afford the rates we currently have.  No one on this board will notice a $40 bump.   And, would single digit increase (let’s use 9% worst case) even get us there?   Infrastructure $$$, as you know, doesn’t go that far.  

In the grand scheme of things, electric costs aren't what drive unaffordability of homes/rentals. A 10% increase to the average electric bill in Austin would be an additional $13 per month. It isn't nothing, but I don't think that's a reason not to reform our system and fix our grid. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Dahobbs

[fattyflattie 4639]

3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

In the grand scheme of things, electric costs aren't what drive unaffordability of homes/rentals. A 10% increase to the average electric bill in Austin would be an additional $13 per month. It isn't nothing, but I don't think that's a reason not to reform our system and fix our grid. 

I don't disagree, just curious on the boards thoughts on the less exciting part of the equation.  I threw $40 out there because that's 10% of my highest bill I've had since forever.  I've been doing some work in the transmission space for the last few years, and can only speak to a small, specific portion of it.  But "a few billion" doesn't go very far in the grand scheme imo.  We are going to have to feel some real pain to "fix" our problem.  For the denizens of this board, it won't be the end of the world.  But my understanding is there will be plenty that feel it.  I dunno.  I've lost power for over 15 mins only once in the last 9 years. It was on the last day of the freeze, once it was no longer even freezing.  I'm in at .073 at the moment, but that's going to end at some point and it's going to suck. 

[Brisketexan 105142]

17 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I don't disagree, just curious on the boards thoughts on the less exciting part of the equation.  I threw $40 out there because that's 10% of my highest bill I've had since forever.  I've been doing some work in the transmission space for the last few years, and can only speak to a small, specific portion of it.  But "a few billion" doesn't go very far in the grand scheme imo.  We are going to have to feel some real pain to "fix" our problem.  For the denizens of this board, it won't be the end of the world.  But my understanding is there will be plenty that feel it.  I dunno.  I've lost power for over 15 mins only once in the last 9 years. It was on the last day of the freeze, once it was no longer even freezing.  I'm in at .073 at the moment, but that's going to end at some point and it's going to suck. 

I am going to have to replace my roof at some point in the next 5 years.  It is going to be costly, and it is a type of roof that does not suffer real hail damage, so I'll be paying out of pocket.  

That's going to suck.  But not as much as failing to perform essential capital-cost maintenance on my house will suck in the long term.  None of us can change reality.  A reliable electric grid costs money.  Not having a reliable electric grid has proven -- literally proven, in the last 18 months -- to cost even MORE money.  And lives.  That's the choice we are faced with.  Seems like a common-sense choice to me, but I know that is irrelevant.  Our sole governing philosophy is "pinch every penny today, consume our seedstock for profit, and don't do shit to plan for tomorrow."  So, that's what we'll keep doing, mostly (save a bit of window-dressing, and some (but not enough) actual transmission infrastructure that will only get pushed because private generators need it to make profits, not because it's actually what the consumer needs).

[Captainant 27669]

Goddamn you're using a shitload of electricity if you're getting $400 monthly bills at $0.073 per KWhr

[fattyflattie 4639]

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Goddamn you're using a shitload of electricity if you're getting $400 monthly bills at $0.073 per KWhr

Yep. WFH, pool, and our new nifty surcharges had us at $400 in July.  Before pool and the freeze charge we were around $250 max.   Lady on next door went to something like $1300 last month when she expired and best rates were .20 or so.  That'll make a dent on some folks. 

eta: 75 in day, 76 at night.  No other real major usages. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by fattyflattie

[Dahobbs 17534]

15 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Goddamn you're using a shitload of electricity if you're getting $400 monthly bills at $0.073 per KWhr

I'm assuming that is the quoted rate based on same particular usage and not the real all-inclusive, effective rate. Because, yes, 5,500 kwh a month is a shit ton. Although, it probably wouldn't be completely out of line with a large house + pool + some electric appliances/vehicles in July. 

[Captainant 27669]

59 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Yep. WFH, pool, and our new nifty surcharges had us at $400 in July.  Before pool and the freeze charge we were around $250 max.   Lady on next door went to something like $1300 last month when she expired and best rates were .20 or so.  That'll make a dent on some folks. 

eta: 75 in day, 76 at night.  No other real major usages. 

Pretty crazy that you've got an electricity rate that low, very fortunate for you to get subsidized by everyone else lol. For comparison, my monthly bill in my house (WFH but 5yo construction with good insulation and seals) with ~1300KWhr of usage in a month is about $275 after all the fun fees and surcharges. And there's not really any better rates available on the market either. 

I understand why you're so blasé about the grid though lol. You've got a sweetheart contract and your electricity never goes out. Mine blinks out whenever the fucking wind blows too hard, I've had to buy UPS's for all of my electronics because of the nuisance of waiting 15 minutes for the whole network stack to reinitialize while I'm trying to work.

[HouTex 1867]

9 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Pretty crazy that you've got an electricity rate that low, very fortunate for you to get subsidized by everyone else lol. For comparison, my monthly bill in my house (WFH but 5yo construction with good insulation and seals) with ~1300KWhr of usage in a month is about $275 after all the fun fees and surcharges. And there's not really any better rates available on the market either. 

I understand why you're so blasé about the grid though lol. You've got a sweetheart contract and your electricity never goes out. Mine blinks out whenever the fucking wind blows too hard, I've had to buy UPS's for all of my electronics because of the nuisance of waiting 15 minutes for the whole network stack to reinitialize while I'm trying to work.

Subsidized?  Sweetheart contract?  Sounds like he locked in what ended up being a good deal.  It could have gone the other way if energy prices had moved differently.  Good for him for how it turned out.  

[fattyflattie 4639]

13 minutes ago, HouTex said:

Subsidized?  Sweetheart contract?  Sounds like he locked in what ended up being a good deal.  It could have gone the other way if energy prices had moved differently.  Good for him for how it turned out.  

Yall both are correct.  I lucked out on the contract when I signed it, and you can put my face on the Piper Perri meme when it runs out.  The not losing power is a tradeoff for not having a bunch of mature trees around me.  I don't think I'm close enough to anything to be one of the lucky ones that can't be shut off, but we did do really well during the freeze event.