ERCOT Urging For Energy Conservation

[Brisketexan 105,151]

4 hours ago, Captainant said:

Goddamn you're using a shitload of electricity if you're getting $400 monthly bills at $0.073 per KWhr

I mean, that's also another thing about our consumption: we consume a LOT of electricity.  11 years ago, we moved from an old 2k sf house to a newer (not super new, but newer and more efficient in both build and location into a canyon wall), and our electric bill/usage is functionally the same, even though we added a shitload more space.

But on our last visit to Germany, we stayed with friends at their house.  It was probably in the 2000 sf range -- family of 4, everyone had their own bedroom, and a nice guest room in the basement.  Temps were pleasant -- they have to use more energy to heat than we do, we have to use more energy to cool.  Their usage?  40% of ours.  The house is just that much more efficient.  We think we give a shit about energy efficiency. In comparison to other developed countries, we really don't.  We should.

[utee94 15,824]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, that's also another thing about our consumption: we consume a LOT of electricity.  11 years ago, we moved from an old 2k sf house to a newer (not super new, but newer and more efficient in both build and location into a canyon wall), and our electric bill/usage is functionally the same, even though we added a shitload more space.

But on our last visit to Germany, we stayed with friends at their house.  It was probably in the 2000 sf range -- family of 4, everyone had their own bedroom, and a nice guest room in the basement.  Temps were pleasant -- they have to use more energy to heat than we do, we have to use more energy to cool.  Their usage?  40% of ours.  The house is just that much more efficient.  We think we give a shit about energy efficiency. In comparison to other developed countries, we really don't.  We should.

Sure, efficiency is one thing, but it's fairly difficult and expensive to tackle.

There is so much lower-hanging fruit-- this very thread is chock full of Texans insisting they need to keep their thermostats set to 68 in the summer.  

[Brisketexan 105,151]

Just now, utee94 said:

Sure, efficiency is one thing, but it's fairly difficult and expensive to tackle.

There is so much lower-hanging fruit-- this very thread is chock full of Texans insisting they need to keep their thermostats set to 68 in the summer.  

True to both.

Although I think greater efficiency standards on new construction is a thing that should happen.  Both.  We should do both.

[Captainant 27,677]

2 hours ago, HouTex said:

Subsidized?  Sweetheart contract?  Sounds like he locked in what ended up being a good deal.  It could have gone the other way if energy prices had moved differently.  Good for him for how it turned out.  

 

2 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Yall both are correct.  I lucked out on the contract when I signed it, and you can put my face on the Piper Perri meme when it runs out.  The not losing power is a tradeoff for not having a bunch of mature trees around me.  I don't think I'm close enough to anything to be one of the lucky ones that can't be shut off, but we did do really well during the freeze event.  

100% good for him with how it turned out lol. But in a for-profit system, it's always a zero-sum game. If he's getting a great deal and burning 5 or 6 megawatts a month, then other people are going to be paying more while consuming less to make up for the lost profit margin. In a private, for profit system the shareholders (read: executives) are a more important priority than the customers served. It's why ERCOT and the TX grid operators haven't done dick to actually address any of the grids shortfalls - they've been putting off maintenance like crazy and paying the MASSIVE FINE of $500 for it lol. Who cares what happens when it freezes again? The MBA holders that made the call will already be on to the next business to ruin

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, that's also another thing about our consumption: we consume a LOT of electricity.  11 years ago, we moved from an old 2k sf house to a newer (not super new, but newer and more efficient in both build and location into a canyon wall), and our electric bill/usage is functionally the same, even though we added a shitload more space.

And yeah there's also the issue that US homebuilders have been building shitty houses for decades that cut every corner on insulation and sealing and efficiency to save a few bucks and get better margins. Once the house is built and finished, it's prohibitively expensive to retroactively put in better insulation, so we're just stuck with a glut of shitty tickytack houses that are horribly inefficient, which only exacerbates the problem. 

Too bad any sort of regulation or rule for housing standards will get shot down in an instant. Ah well, nevertheless.

[utee94 15,824]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

True to both.

Although I think greater efficiency standards on new construction is a thing that should happen.  Both.  We should do both.

Agree we should do both.

One requires cost to implement.  The other is instantaneous.

But...  muh A/C!

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by utee94

[Samson's Wig 3,192]

I find it fascinating that anyone would claim some sort of moral high ground based on thermostat settings. 

Setting the thermostat to 75 in one house will not feel remotely the same as setting it to 75 in another house.  It's not apples to apples. 

And if some people prefer to be cooler, or hotter, and are willing to pay for it, then everyone else should fuck off about it.  Residential power usage is a gnat on the elephant's ass.

[utee94 15,824]

10 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

I find it fascinating that anyone would claim some sort of moral high ground based on thermostat settings. 

Setting the thermostat to 75 in one house will not feel remotely the same as setting it to 75 in another house.  It's not apples to apples. 

And if some people prefer to be cooler, or hotter, and are willing to pay for it, then everyone else should fuck off about it.  Residential power usage is a gnat on the elephant's ass.

Right.  Exactly.  Muh A/C!!!!

 

And moral high ground?  You need to get away from the world of internet message forum arguments for a bit.  We're discussing ways to minimize electrical usage and setting a thermostat to something above 68 is certainly one of them. 

 

 

[Dahobbs 17,543]

1 hour ago, utee94 said:

Right.  Exactly.  Muh A/C!!!!

 

And moral high ground?  You need to get away from the world of internet message forum arguments for a bit.  We're discussing ways to minimize electrical usage and setting a thermostat to something above 68 is certainly one of them. 

 

 

[Steel Shank 9,426]

Currently adjusting my thermostat to 68.5

[Kringelbert Fishtybuns 943]

On 8/17/2022 at 1:08 AM, TKthunder2 said:

Austin Energy had a half billion dollar biomass plant in Nacogdoches that recently bought in 2019 (because they had to in order to get out of a nearly criminally bad contract they royally fucked up when drawing it up https://www.kxan.com/investigations/austins-biomass-power-plant-idled-again-during-mid-june-energy-crunch/ )

that they couldn’t get turned on to produce ANY electricity during the storm. They had also decommissioned two “low efficiency” but still fully operational power generators at Decker just 3 month previously with no plans for replacing them or their capacity (basically being green but cutting costly generation infrastructure just like everyone on here is complaining about private power companies doing the same thing).

The biomass plant contract (from ~2012)was colossally stupid from the initial deal with Southern.  The purchase of it was just the smallest shit sandwich they could negotiate.  To be fair to AE, Southern and NACE lost their shirt on that damn plant as well.  It didn’t look anywhere near as bad then as it does now. 

Mothballing the Decker units made perfect sense due to cost of operation/maintenance and the capital projects needed to keep it reliable.  Otherwise they were just playing roulette even if they were made available off/non-spin.  Also, if they had been able to keep those two units online for Feb 2021, where were they going to get the gas?  

Maybe I missed it, but I haven’t seen anybody criticizing public or private entities cutting non financially viable assets.

AE should have had better transformer maintenance/circuit mapping and isolations that would have made it able to roll blackouts when needed.  But I’m not aware of many wellhead circuits they failed to identify.  

Once again, AE has plenty of faults, but with Uri - they were a room temp IQ in College Station.

ERCOT knew shit was turbo fucked on Friday and they were still telling people to not use their stand mixer/washing machine on Sunday.

[Humble Beast 258]

 

[Biff Tannen 45,691]

3 hours ago, Humble Beast said:

 

Is this "cheaper" including subsidies for both sides? 

[Dahobbs 17,543]

12 hours ago, Humble Beast said:

 

80% of new generation is renewable. I've linked the various reports on this multiple times in this thread. So, it is happening. And it is happening quickly. 

[Guest]

There are several important properties required by power generation sources and distribution networks for a reliable grid.  In most articles intended for the general public, only costs for total energy generation from power sources are discussed, i.e.  costs analysis for total MWh generated from renewable to thermal plants are given for comparison.  But thermal plants provide many things for the grid that renewable power sources alone do not provide.  In addition to energy supply per annum, thermal power plants provide high capacity factor baseload power generation, grid inertia, and they control grid power factor and reactive power.  Wind and solar can be made to do these things, but that requires significant additional equipment and capital investment.  Right now these important functions are provided by thermal plants, but none of this goes into the simple $/MWh calculation.

But suppose renewables could not simply pass all of these other important functions over to thermal plants.  Suppose we were building a power island from scratch that needed to run year round with +99% availability.  A 100% thermal power generation grid would be far, far cheaper than a 100% wind/solar grid.  Something like 5-10x cheaper.       

None of this is meant to diminish the role or potential for renewables.  My point is that the challenge to produce clean, low cost, reliable energy is significant and we need considerable continued investment and innovation to achieve our goals.      

[Dahobbs 17,543]

9 minutes ago, axiom of foundation said:

There are several important properties required by power generation sources and distribution networks for a reliable grid.  In most articles intended for the general public, only costs for total energy generation from power sources are discussed, i.e.  costs analysis for total MWh generated from renewable to thermal plants are given for comparison.  But thermal plants provide many things for the grid that renewable power sources alone do not provide.  In addition to energy supply per annum, thermal power plants provide high capacity factor baseload power generation, grid inertia, and they control grid power factor and reactive power.  Wind and solar can be made to do these things, but that requires significant additional equipment and capital investment.  Right now these important functions are provided by thermal plants, but none of this goes into the simple $/MWh calculation.

But suppose renewables could not simply pass all of these other important functions over to thermal plants.  Suppose we were building a power island from scratch that needed to run year round with +99% availability.  A 100% thermal power generation grid would be far, far cheaper than a 100% wind/solar grid.  Something like 5-10x cheaper.       

None of this is meant to diminish the role or potential for renewables.  My point is that the challenge to produce clean, low cost, reliable energy is significant and we need considerable continued investment and innovation to achieve our goals.      

A mixed grid is better right now than. 100% renewable. The question is what mix. Your island would be fucked though since it wouldn't have enough fuel. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

A mixed grid is better right now than. 100% renewable. The question is what mix. Your island would be fucked though since it wouldn't have enough fuel. 

Mixed power production portfolio is better for most grids, definitely agree on that.  But there are hundreds of power islands that operate on 100% thermal generation with very high availability.

My key point though is that there are many functions that thermal power plants perform other than total MWh per annum that need to be accounted for as we move to more renewables.  Right now renewables do not need to perform these functions, but as we go to higher percentage wind+solar and take more thermal plants offline, these other functions must be addressed and costs will go up.  

[Dahobbs 17,543]

14 minutes ago, axiom of foundation said:

Mixed power production portfolio is better for most grids, definitely agree on that.  But there are hundreds of power islands that operate on 100% thermal generation with very high availability.

My key point though is that there are many functions that thermal power plants perform other than total MWh per annum that need to be accounted for as we move to more renewables.  Right now renewables do not need to perform these functions, but as we go to higher percentage wind+solar and take more thermal plants offline, these other functions must be addressed and costs will go up.  

The islands only work because of access to a global supply system. That was my point. I agree with everything else. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19,190]

On 8/19/2022 at 9:06 PM, Humble Beast said:

 

The private market would have us still filling up with leaded gasoline and constructing buildings with asbestos.

[Hawndoh 2,386]

A little bit of rain for the first time in a couple months has caused all sorts of power problems in DFW.

Mine went out in Plano and is still down. A quick search for Oncor on Twitter and it looks like quite a few others as well 

[Hawndoh 2,386]

Ended up with no power for two hours.

[Fudge Nuggets 19,190]

56 minutes ago, Hawndoh said:

Ended up with no power for two hours.

Thoughts and prayers to you and your family in these difficult times.

[Humble Beast 258]

I wonder if there’s a thread on USC site where people share their thermostat settings?

 

Also, they ask you please not charge your electric vehicles during these times. 

[Dahobbs 17,543]

41 minutes ago, Humble Beast said:

I wonder if there’s a thread on USC site where people share their thermostat settings?

 

Also, they ask you please not charge your electric vehicles during these times. 

Probably. Is there one in Moscow? 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

How about Colorado?

 

[Dahobbs 17,543]

20 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

How about Colorado?

 

Not really the same thing at all. These folks signed up for a voluntary program that I'm sure provided them some compensation so that their utility could do that. But hey, deflect, deflect, deflect Johnny always says. 

[utee94 15,824]

8 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Not really the same thing at all. These folks signed up for a voluntary program that I'm sure provided them some compensation so that their utility could do that. 

Yeah, in this case the news story really should have been written about how stupid these people are for not knowing they willingly opted into this.

In the past, Austin Energy has offered a "free smart thermostat," and in exchange you allow them the capability to control your thermostat settings during times they consider to be peak and critical. It's very plainly stated and you have to be a complete moron not to understand what you're giving up in exchange for that "free" smart thermostat.

All that said, if their utility provider only dialed up these folks' thermostats to 78 or 79, then they're pussies for complaining at all.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by utee94

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

2 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Not really the same thing at all. These folks signed up for a voluntary program that I'm sure provided them some compensation so that their utility could do that. But hey, deflect, deflect, deflect Johnny always says. 

So this is not the thread to talk about how California pays triple per kwh compared to Texas and has brownouts when it breaks 90 degrees?  I guess I will start another thread about fucked up electricity grids in other states and how much they get to pay for their shitty services. 

[Brisketexan 105,151]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

So this is not the thread to talk about how California pays triple per kwh compared to Texas and has brownouts when it breaks 90 degrees?  I guess I will start another thread about fucked up electricity grids in other states and how much they get to pay for their shitty services. 

1 -- the CA to TX price ratio is 2:1, not 3:1.

2 -- and only if we can also talk about the dozens and dozens of other states that a) have rates on par with or BELOW Texas's average rate, and b) don't have a failing grid that has literally killed hundreds of people and created an economic catastrophe so complete that the state's ratepayers will be paying for it for the next 20-30 years.

Holding up Texas as a shining example of a functioning market by pointing in comparison to California......while failing to ALSO point to such economic powerhouses as Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Utah (and a crapload of others) that are CHEAPER than we are and don't fail....well, that's super on-brand.

[Dahobbs 17,543]

14 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

So this is not the thread to talk about how California pays triple per kwh compared to Texas and has brownouts when it breaks 90 degrees?  I guess I will start another thread about fucked up electricity grids in other states and how much they get to pay for their shitty services. 

California's grid has its own issues (largely related to wildfires and the failure of a single large utility and its transmission lines). They are different problems than facing Texas and aren't really related. It is a complete non-sequitur to this thread.  But then again, you already knew that. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Dahobbs

[Brisketexan 105,151]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

California's grid has its own issues (largely related to wildfires and the failure of a single large utility and its transmission lines). They are different problems than facing Texas and aren't really related. It is a complete non-sequitur to this thread.  

Also this.  Indeed, if you'd like to discuss the example of California and how the decision of an investor-owned utility to put short-term profit above making long-term investments in maintaining infrastructure ends up costing everyone in the long run, that would be a FANTASTIC thread.  PG&E deserves even more skewering.  The bad news for the Johnny Sacks, though, is that it's another nail in the coffin of "the market's gonna save us all!" lie.

[Biff Tannen 45,691]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

But then again, you already knew that. 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

 

[Brisketexan 105,151]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

 

Cool, cool.

Without looking it up, want to take a guess at the max price that Ancillary Services prices per MW (not the energy price, just the Ancillary Services price) hit during the 2021 winter storm?  Go ahead, take a guess.  If you can't do that, take a guess at what energy prices hit per MW during the storm.

Please, keep touting the success of the ERCOT market (as you pay a surcharge on your bill for the next 20 years to pay for a single 5-day event).  You are WAY out of your depth here.

[bolverk 29,683]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

 

$300/MWh is still cheaper than this:

[YGIFS 19,450]

Yeah, it's getting kinda difficult to cheer and high five for our power grid considering the multiple by which our rates have gone up.  And we're in for a hot September.  

But this, "Whoah, a Porsche is faster than a Kia" rationale is puzzling.  Great, ERCOT has good performance...it fucking should at these rates.  Who jerks off to shit like this?  

[Captainant 27,677]

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/columnists/tomlinson/article/texas-blackouts-pipelines-natural-gas-18266649.php

Quote

Simpson’s data, filed in court papers as part of his suit, suggests frozen wells were not the problem. He alleges pipeline companies trying to goose profits by slowing gas flows accidentally triggered the first blackouts. A cascade of blackouts followed.

“Well before the freezing temperatures arrived, Defendants began to decrease production of natural gas to drive up the price in light of the foreseeable surge in demand,” the CirclesX suit alleges. The companies began withholding gas five days before the storm hit and watched prices rise.

WINTER STORM URI: How devastating was 2021's deadly Texas freeze, exactly? Here's what the numbers say

All the defendants insist they operated lawfully and have asked the court to dismiss the suit, according to court documents.

In a 161-page court filing, CirclesX provides data showing dozens of instances where pipeline companies cut off gas flows long before the storm hit.

“On February 8, 2021, Defendants ETC Marketing and ETC Texas Pipeline (subsidiaries of Energy Transfer Partners) reduced natural gas supply at Defendant ETC Marketing’s Hemphill Plant in Hemphill County from 25,000 (million British Thermal Units a day) on February 8 to 0 MMBtu/d on or around February 13, 2021,” the suit alleges. A spokesperson for Energy Transfer Partners said the company does not comment on pending litigation.

[YGIFS 19,450]

so if you aggregate all the messages you get today from ERCOT.  The system is totally fine, robust more than ever.  Completely sustainable.  Just shut everything and unplug all things in your home from 3-9pm.  And completely go business as usual if you're a commercial user, in fact ramp up usage.  But all is well, except for you there.  You in the tan home.  Shut off everything.  Because everything is fine due to our abundance of energy.  But knock it off.  

 

Got it.  I  think our state may be mentally disabled.

[Boss Hogg 808]

2 hours ago, YGIFS said:

so if you aggregate all the messages you get today from ERCOT.  The system is totally fine, robust more than ever.  Completely sustainable.  Just shut everything and unplug all things in your home from 3-9pm.  And completely go business as usual if you're a commercial user, in fact ramp up usage.  But all is well, except for you there.  You in the tan home.  Shut off everything.  Because everything is fine due to our abundance of energy.  But knock it off.  

 

Got it.  I  think our state may be mentally disabled.

Explain to me like I’m 5 why there were outages today?

[Kringelbert Fishtybuns 943]

1 minute ago, Boss Hogg said:

Explain to me like I’m 5 why there were outages today?

It’s hot as shit and transmission equipment shit the bed/blew up.  Any power outages were localized and not systemwide.  
 

There was no forced load shedding  - although there was a notification that it might happen around 7:45 pm.  They just cancelled the advisory 15 mins ago or so.

[Biff Tannen 45,691]

Back to green

https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/gridconditions

[Boss Hogg 808]

12 minutes ago, Kringelbert Fishtybuns said:

It’s hot as shit and transmission equipment shit the bed/blew up.  Any power outages were localized and not systemwide.  
 

There was no forced load shedding  - although there was a notification that it might happen around 7:45 pm.  They just cancelled the advisory 15 mins ago or so.

So there were no outages? And there have been none in this monster heat wave?

Edited August 18, 2023 by Boss Hogg

[miguelito 11,266]

The important takeaway today is that a lot of rich people made a shitload of money. 

[Kringelbert Fishtybuns 943]

15 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

So there were no outages? And there have been none in this monster heat wave?

I’m sure people have lost their power this summer where a transformer blew or a tree branch fell on a transmission line, but nothing widespread that would really be controlled by ERCOT.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Kringelbert Fishtybuns said:

I’m sure people have lost their power this summer where a transformer blew or a tree branch fell on a transmission line, but nothing widespread that would really be controlled by ERCOT.

That doesn’t fit CaptainAnt’s narrative.  

[Captainant 27,677]

1 hour ago, Porterhouse said:

That doesn’t fit CaptainAnt’s narrative.  

If only you could click through and read the article to see that its about the 2021 freeze and blackout and massive profit taking by NG firms during the induced blackout. 

[tx 3 putt 76,974]

Harris county needs to join the national grid. Problem solved 

[pacman 7,355]

3 hours ago, Boss Hogg said:

Explain to me like I’m 5 why there were outages today?

Traditional energy seeks to drive up the price of energy for more profit, and Abbott/Ercot have no desire to curb greed when demand/need is highest.

Zero accountability for Abbott/Ercot and energy companies means they can do whatever they want.

Edited August 18, 2023 by pacman

[Updawg 2,266]

Maintenance lol

[Homercles 10,205]