ERCOT Urging For Energy Conservation

[PTINS 3472]

14 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I feel like in the short term, we are going to have to do something to reduce consumption.  Whether that’s stopping water-thirsty non-native lawn grasses, or doing something about companies and people running automated big-ass sprinklers when it’s raining, or scaling back on water-hungry companies moving to Texas, or a combination, I don’t know.

We are not even really trying to educate people on the coming water crisis either, so a shitload of them are going to melt down when it truly hits.

FIFY. We need to reduce consumption. There is not a source of fresh water source that can meet the demand. Aquifers are viewed as fresh water oceans; they not. They are static filtration systems with long term, multi year cycle rate. If you shorten the cycle, the water you put in is the same water you take out; unfiltered water. 

13 hours ago, Dnaguy said:

I’m not tied into this but there has to be a synergy in which you drop the price of electricity low enough to unlock economics for desal which then unlocks some further efficiencies in electricity production to lower cost and which then allows for pipeline operation further and further / replenishment of aquifers by pumping water back into them.

However, this feels like something of a 60’s space race style commitment by true statesmen, planners, and critical thinkers…. a true moonshot.

Once we have abundant, cheap energy ..., wake up, you're late for work. It costs what it costs, impacted by inefficiencies in politics, and physics. One is easier to fix than the other.

There is a fundamental reason the south was sparsely populated til the 60's, AIR CONDITIONING. A/C follows air and water to sustain life.

People tend to settle in places with running water. There is not enough running water between Dallas - Austin-San Antonio to "support" the current demand.

Water for drinking is an absolute. Water for recreation and irrigation, and industrial consumption is not. It should be priced accordingly. 

12 hours ago, Post Oak said:

This is correct.

Start at the tap and work backwards. Incentivize (i.e., make 'em pay!!!) to remove grass lawns or much of them. I still want places in my yard where my kids can run and play too.

Plant drought tolerant hybrids or natives.  You shouldn't have to water more than 2x a week, even in summer to keep something alive that wants to die.

Running your sprinklers during the day - straight to jail. Watering your driveway or the street- jail.

There needs to be rebates and incentives on a statewide scale to help people with these things. Replacing lawns, smart sprinklers, gutter, water collection and grey water systems. That's the carrot.  If that doesnt work use the stick and issue fines.

Um, no. properly priced water costs will provide all the incentive necessary.

The plan should be to try to use every drop of water twice. 

I saw a video about a company that makes a system that takes your shower water, filters it just enough and then makes it available for your toilet flushing. From there it's sent to the sewer or septic.  But they claimed just by doing that you would save close to 40% of your water usage.

I hate being worried about the grid but I'm much more worried long-term about our water situation.

We need to invest heavily in wastewater recycling and aquifer recharge.

I know some Texans like to bang on CA. In 2023 when they got all of the rain that filled up their reservoirs and they had to release it down stream and eventually to the Pacific people were incredulous that they were wasting it.  The truth is they have set up passive recharge zones where they're able to flood fields and allow that water to soak in.  Probably not enough but some. They also have active recharge.  Where it's pumped underground. Some, not enough.

I'm not sure if we have those same types of practices.  I couldn't find much info.  If we don't, we should.  Hundreds of them. All over the state.  We have to plant the water before it evaporates or meets the Gulf.

We have this magnificent wonder of nature called the Texas Hill Country, this higher elevation, 20,000 square mile, fractured limestone recharge zone, with natural geologic features that funnels surface water downward, where it is naturally filtered, and stored in the aquifers, or it naturally percolates out of the ground where the Hill Country meets the coastal plains.  You just need to add water to make it all work.

The sooner everyone realizes we need to start behaving like El Paso or Phoenix the better off we'll be. 

But we're Texas so you know...

 

[texasdago 7575]

1 hour ago, Post Oak said:

Same. We have about a 1/3 acre lot and are focusing on adding beds around the borders full of natives while keeping the some of the center back yard grass for the kids.  

Started last year DIY and if we can get to 50/50 on our lot in a few years I'll be ecstatic. Building beds, ripping up grass is a fucking workout.

Plus one thing I've learned is that being out in your yard and seeing birds, bees and hummingbirds is good for my soul.

Amen to that... the number of songbirds we have is cleansing, for sure. 

[InkaUtexas 25987]

2 minutes ago, texasdago said:

Amen to that... the number of songbirds we have is cleansing, for sure. 

I plant a lot of natives and sunflowers. Love working on the back patio in the mornings hearing them. Add to that the butterflies that seems to always be in the yard. I do have a 20  gallon water feature, shaded by potted mandarin trees. I keep that for them to be honest. And when we are dry, they appreciate it. Cannot remember last time I washed my car. Wife washes hers about once a month but she works in marshes and bugs do fuck it up.

[Brisketexan 105155]

34 minutes ago, elfenix said:

must have missed the thing about lawn grass being the largest irrigated crop in the US which i posted above.

In Texas, as of 2021 (last year for which I see good date), agricultural irrigation was 53% of our water usage.  And something like 75% of the ag water was groundwater, much of which is from non-replenishing (or so slow as to be functionally non-replenishing) aquifers, like the Ogallala in the panhandle.

There's plenty of water: it mostly falls in the eastern third of the state.  We just have to catch it.  And transport it.  There's also lots of water in the ocean.  We just need to desalinate it.  And transport it.  Our problem is that we've exhausted almost all of the cheap options.  We're working in the next layer of options that are more expensive, but not brutally so (re-use permits are going crazy now; aquifer storage and recovery is coming soon as well).  But that will only get us partway there.  Yes, conservation has to be a part of it.  But even then, that has its own problems.

Specifically, the cost of securing supply and building infrastructure goes way up.  So, the base cost for water for everyone has to go up.  Meaning that Joe Suburb, who used to use 6,000 gallons per month and pay a water bill of $40, now uses 4,500 gallons per month....and pays a water bill of $60.  He's using less water, and paying more.  Because most people don't realize that you really aren't paying for "the water I use."  You are paying for the means to capture and have adequate supply, and the infrastructure to deliver it.  But 99% of consumers don't get that.  They get the simple math: I'm using less, and paying more, and that's bullshit (it's attractive math, I give you that).  Water is an increasingly scarce resource -- laws of supply and demand tell us that its price will go up.  And those laws are being followed, and will continue to be followed. 

[atomheartbevo 89730]

2 hours ago, Post Oak said:

ERCOT expects they need to add 62 GW of energy by 2030

So the solution is to encourage more bitcoin people to move here, right?

[InkaUtexas 25987]

One relatively inexpensive option is rain water collection for homes. Fuck lawns. We are not South Carolina or Kentucky. @troph you have a collection system correct?

Have seen a few very nice systems. Collection tanks with automatic drip systems for small lawn areas. Roots work folks.

I collect in buckets. Amazing how much water I can collect just off the back patio roof. I have heard this is illegal in some areas. My father's HOA does not allow it on homes.

Why? It is going to replenish, just at a different rate and reduces rapid run off from big rains.

[Brisketexan 105155]

Just now, atomheartbevo said:

So the solution is to encourage more bitcoin people to move here, right?

atomheart gets it.

Remember, no matter what the question is, no matter what the conundrum or seemingly unsolvable problem is, there is always one clear answer, one obvious solution:  CRYPTO!

[Post Oak 20245]

2 hours ago, Newdoc said:

Or we need to reduce and meet in the middle. Sounds like I need to bite the bullet and look into home solar.

Yep. I'm waiting on a guy to give me a quote for new attic insulation today.  First guy quoted me 1400 for a 1700ish sqft house.  Seems ok.  Plus I'll get to claim 30% on my taxes.

[Nivek 16945]

1 hour ago, elfenix said:

must have missed the thing about lawn grass being the largest irrigated crop in the US which i posted above.

I am probably biased from stories about water shortages in California and their plans to counter it (link)   images like this being burned into my brain regarding agricultural water use and its observable impact on the environment.  

 

[Post Oak 20245]

Back to ERCOT for a moment.  Here's an article about the Southern Spirit transmission line that would connect Texas to the SE.

 

Who’s afraid of a 300-mile transmission line that could help decarbonize the Southeast?

Louisiana lawmakers and local utilities.

 

https://grist.org/energy/southern-spirit-transmission-line-louisiana-mississippi-texas/

[troph 24854]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

One relatively inexpensive option is rain water collection for homes. Fuck lawns. We are not South Carolina or Kentucky. @troph you have a collection system correct?

Have seen a few very nice systems. Collection tanks with automatic drip systems for small lawn areas. Roots work folks.

I collect in buckets. Amazing how much water I can collect just off the back patio roof. I have heard this is illegal in some areas. My father's HOA does not allow it on homes.

Why? It is going to replenish, just at a different rate and reduces rapid run off from big rains.

rainwater collection starts very cheap and then gets stupid depending on how hidden, large and elegant you want your system to be.  I think gutters to large tanks enclosed by fencing is perfectly nice and then you can use gravity or a pump to push it out to the lawn. If it's drinking water the filtration isn't complicated but adds a few thousand. non-potable water? That can be super cheap.

[InkaUtexas 25987]

42 minutes ago, troph said:

rainwater collection starts very cheap and then gets stupid depending on how hidden, large and elegant you want your system to be.  I think gutters to large tanks enclosed by fencing is perfectly nice and then you can use gravity or a pump to push it out to the lawn. If it's drinking water the filtration isn't complicated but adds a few thousand. non-potable water? That can be super cheap.

Yep, that has always been my experience. I helped my dad install the system you described for his gardens in New Mexico. Worked quite well.

[troph 24854]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

Yep, that has always been my experience. I helped my dad install the system you described for his gardens in New Mexico. Worked quite well.

keep the large organics out of the tank (probably with a simple screen) and use gravity or a pump and go. yes super simple.

[Redneck Mutha 8003]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

atomheart gets it.

Remember, no matter what the question is, no matter what the conundrum or seemingly unsolvable problem is, there is always one clear answer, one obvious solution:  CRYPTO!

I have a hard time seeing how crypto can help us with our water problem. 

But you know what we can use in place of water?  Big, beautiful OIL.

[InkaUtexas 25987]

Just now, troph said:

keep the large organics out of the tank (probably with a simple screen) and use gravity or a pump and go. yes super simple.

Yep. Another system I used and liked, just not in the US, are underground cisterns for each house. The water is not potable and if the power goes out you have none unless you drop a bucket. Wonder if these could be installed in backyards here for just simple uses. Toilet and plants. They basically become a rainwater supported well.

[troph 24854]

35 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yep. Another system I used and liked, just not in the US, are underground cisterns for each house. The water is not potable and if the power goes out you have none unless you drop a bucket. Wonder if these could be installed in backyards here for just simple uses. Toilet and plants. They basically become a rainwater supported well.

not sure where here is, but generally yes, 100% they can. you do have another issue with connecting to house plumbing if it's not an original design to have potable and non-potable. while I don't advocate you drink out of the toilet, most houses (including ours which is dedicated rainwater only) do not have separate potable and non-potable supplies.

[InkaUtexas 25987]

Here = Central Texas.

[jimmyjazz 45976]

5 hours ago, Captainant said:

You can charge your battery up overnight for pennies on the dollar

Not in Austin, you can't.  I'm not aware of what parts of the state have significant variable rate models in place, but in Austin proper you pay the same per kw*hr whether it's noon or midnight.

[elfenix 34310]

21 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Not in Austin, you can't.  I'm not aware of what parts of the state have significant variable rate models in place, but in Austin proper you pay the same per kw*hr whether it's noon or midnight.

 

there’s various plans in the competitive areas with “free” nights/weekends. Back when Griddy was around I’d watch the electric rate fall to 0 (or negative) late at night.

 

consumers probably should be less insulated from the cost-at-the-moment without going full Griddy.  Getting charged the same rate all day doesn’t do much to discourage waste or encourage efficiency 

Edited April 18 by elfenix

[Captainant 27680]

12 minutes ago, elfenix said:

there’s various plans in the competitive areas with “free” nights/weekends. Back when Griddy was around I’d watch the electric rate fall to 0 (or negative) late at night.

 

consumers probably should be less insulated from the cost-at-the-moment without going full Griddy.  Getting charged the same rate all day doesn’t discourage waste.

I've got one of those renewable plans with free nights and weekends, and while the metered usage is higher than I'd like, we mostly time-shift our power hungry tasks (mainly laundry) to nights and weekends and it definitely makes an impact on our monthly bill

Edited April 18 by Captainant

[troph 24854]

27 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I have a buddy who bought an astro turf business franchise where you buy the regional area, a few years ago.

He paid $900k a few years ago and now makes $6 million bucks a year. It's a business that is just him, his wife and his brother. Think: astro turfing peoples backyards who are sick of yard work, custom golf stuff like backyard putting greens (and even a par 3 single hole for rich people).

I think it's still early innings for that type of business-- especially if regulations ever happen that even come close to what you described...

we almost did this - install artificial turf instead of a lawn - we decided against it because it's really, really fucking hot on the feet in the summer and it's nasty chemicals in how that shit is made. add to that, I have no idea if any of it can leach out under the summer heat. but I'm sure it's a fantastic business right now. I bet there will be a lull if we get a year or two of historical average rain.

but I agree yards need to be reduced in size, our front yard is maybe 20x20 with the rest of the front desert style plants in beds (agave, drought tolerant grass, yucca, etc.). our back is a bit larger, but it's on top of septic which helps some.

hoping to run select sprinklers 40 mins or less per week, some even less, some once a month if at all.

Edited April 18 by troph

[Planet Houston 4930]

Since we added on to our house, our back yard doesn’t see much sunlight. Turf was a game changer - we use the yard so much more than we did, especially when it has rained. 

[deft 6856]

Kinda off topic, but do we have a xeriscape specific lawn thread? I’d like to see what some of yall are working.

[atomheartbevo 89730]

3 hours ago, deft said:

Kinda off topic, but do we have a xeriscape specific lawn thread? I’d like to see what some of yall are working.

Check the Hobbies or Help forums, there are multiple yard and gardening threads.

[atomheartbevo 89730]

9 hours ago, troph said:

not sure where here is, but generally yes, 100% they can. you do have another issue with connecting to house plumbing if it's not an original design to have potable and non-potable. while I don't advocate you drink out of the toilet, most houses (including ours which is dedicated rainwater only) do not have separate potable and non-potable supplies.

I spent the better part of a week here in Austin flushing our toilet with snow we had to melt, so I’m pretty good at dealing with alternate ways to flush toilets now (two little kids and a wife and myself using the toilet gave me a lot of experience).

[jimmyjazz 45976]

8 hours ago, troph said:

we almost did this - install artificial turf instead of a lawn - we decided against it because it's really, really fucking hot on the feet in the summer

My kid played high level select soccer, and spent a lot of time on expensive turf fields around Texas and Oklahoma.  The burns he got on his feet THROUGH HIS CLEATS were not insignificant.  Not fully 2nd degree, but damn close.

Then throw in the research about how many goalies are getting various lung cancers, etc. and you start to question the whole viability of that shit.  Maybe for a yard?  Not good for a sports field.

[texasdago 7575]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

Then throw in the research about how many goalies are getting various lung cancers, etc. and you start to question the whole viability of that shit.  Maybe for a yard?  Not good for a sports field.

Uh, what?  We have a keeper in the family... 

[jimmyjazz 45976]

11 minutes ago, texasdago said:

Uh, what?  We have a keeper in the family... 

Small percentage, but statistically significant.  Diving into those rubber beads over and over creates an exposure over time that elevates cancer risk.  It's not like 10% of goalies are getting lung cancer, though.

[Biff Tannen 45691]

8 hours ago, Planet Houston said:

Since we added on to our house, our back yard doesn’t see much sunlight. Turf was a game changer - we use the yard so much more than we did, especially when it has rained. 

Do you have dogs?  I would entertain turf, because my backyard is shaded 85% of the time, but the dogs have to piss and shit somewhere.

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Do you have dogs?  I would entertain turf, because my backyard is shaded 85% of the time, but the dogs have to piss and shit somewhere.

When we were considering it, they said you just hose it down (after you pick it up).  Can’t verify, decided to go in another direction. 

[Dnaguy 12002]

16 hours ago, Captainant said:

I've got one of those renewable plans with free nights and weekends, and while the metered usage is higher than I'd like, we mostly time-shift our power hungry tasks (mainly laundry) to nights and weekends and it definitely makes an impact on our monthly bill

My buddy in Houston got one of these plans after he got his Tesla and started charging it and deep cooling at night.

It didn’t quite give him the savings he was after.

So he got two of the Tesla batteries installed (solar panels were back ordered)

He’d charge his car, batteries, and get his house down to like 65 at night. Use the battery during the day. His bill dropped by at least half.

They finally got his solar panels in and installed them.

It’s a rare month where he pays anything for electricity…. Which is nuts to say in Houston, Tx.

I don’t know what his ROI is for what he dropped…. But his feeling that he’s hacked the system gives him something that’s hard to quantify 

Edited April 19 by Dnaguy

[Captainant 27680]

26 minutes ago, Dnaguy said:

My buddy in Houston got one of these plans after he got his Tesla and started charging it and deep cooling at night.

I didn’t quite give him the savings he was after.

So he got two of the Tesla batteries installed (solar panels were back ordered)

He’d charge his car, batteries, and get his house down to like 65 at night. Use the battery during the day. His bill dropped by at least half.

They finally got his solar panels in and installed them.

It’s a rare month where he pays anything for electricity…. Which is nuts to say in Houston, Tx.

I don’t know what his ROI is for what he dropped…. But his feeling that he’s hacked the system gives him something that’s hard to quantitate. 

This is the dream, he'll have decent power resiliency when ERCOT inevitably shits the bed again and leaves the state dark

[HouTex 1878]

3 hours ago, Dnaguy said:

My buddy in Houston got one of these plans after he got his Tesla and started charging it and deep cooling at night.

It didn’t quite give him the savings he was after.

So he got two of the Tesla batteries installed (solar panels were back ordered)

He’d charge his car, batteries, and get his house down to like 65 at night. Use the battery during the day. His bill dropped by at least half.

They finally got his solar panels in and installed them.

It’s a rare month where he pays anything for electricity…. Which is nuts to say in Houston, Tx.

I don’t know what his ROI is for what he dropped…. But his feeling that he’s hacked the system gives him something that’s hard to quantify 

A few years back I got a quote from Tesla to install the solar panels and batteries.  My patio home does not have space around it to install a gas fired back up generator so I was looking for another option for back up power and to save on electricity as well.  The quote was for around $80,000 to power my entire house and IIRC the batteries would only last a couple of days with no sun.  My electricity bills are so low that I would never get a return on the $80,000 cost.  I didn’t pull the trigger.  I’ve heard the cost of the batteries will be coming down so one day I may revisit it.  

[Catpfish 618]

On 4/18/2024 at 10:45 AM, Brisketexan said:

In Texas, as of 2021 (last year for which I see good date), agricultural irrigation was 53% of our water usage.  And something like 75% of the ag water was groundwater, much of which is from non-replenishing (or so slow as to be functionally non-replenishing) aquifers, like the Ogallala in the panhandle.

There's plenty of water: it mostly falls in the eastern third of the state.  We just have to catch it.  And transport it.  There's also lots of water in the ocean.  We just need to desalinate it.  And transport it.  Our problem is that we've exhausted almost all of the cheap options.  We're working in the next layer of options that are more expensive, but not brutally so (re-use permits are going crazy now; aquifer storage and recovery is coming soon as well).  But that will only get us partway there.  Yes, conservation has to be a part of it.  But even then, that has its own problems.

Specifically, the cost of securing supply and building infrastructure goes way up.  So, the base cost for water for everyone has to go up.  Meaning that Joe Suburb, who used to use 6,000 gallons per month and pay a water bill of $40, now uses 4,500 gallons per month....and pays a water bill of $60.  He's using less water, and paying more.  Because most people don't realize that you really aren't paying for "the water I use."  You are paying for the means to capture and have adequate supply, and the infrastructure to deliver it.  But 99% of consumers don't get that.  They get the simple math: I'm using less, and paying more, and that's bullshit (it's attractive math, I give you that).  Water is an increasingly scarce resource -- laws of supply and demand tell us that its price will go up.  And those laws are being followed, and will continue to be followed. 

At the same time, unbelievable amounts of water are being just flat wasted by lack of system maintenance.  It's estimated that the City of Austin lost 6.9 BILLION gallons (roughly 21,175 acre feet) of potable water to leaks in 2022.  I'm sure that number is increasing year over year as the system ages.  Found a source from the LCRA that City of Austin and Austin Energy water pumped from the Colorado River plus other water rights was 185,548 acre feet in 2022.  If those numbers are close, you are looking at over 10% loss.  I freely admit that I really don't know shit about fuck except I know Austin loses a lot to leaks.

I'm sure it's the same for cities everywhere and I understand that you'll never be leak-free, but at some point, this issue has to be addressed.  I think very few people know/care about the extent of waste from this area alone.

[InkaUtexas 25987]

9 minutes ago, Catpfish said:

At the same time, unbelievable amounts of water are being just flat wasted by lack of system maintenance.  It's estimated that the City of Austin lost 6.9 BILLION gallons (roughly 21,175 acre feet) of potable water to leaks in 2022.  I'm sure that number is increasing year over year as the system ages.  Found a source from the LCRA that City of Austin and Austin Energy water pumped from the Colorado River plus other water rights was 185,548 acre feet in 2022.  If those numbers are close, you are looking at over 10% loss.  I freely admit that I really don't know shit about fuck except I know Austin loses a lot to leaks.

I'm sure it's the same for cities everywhere and I understand that you'll never be leak-free, but at some point, this issue has to be addressed.  I think very few people know/care about the extent of waste from this area alone.

Very true. And not just Austin. The book When the Rivers Run Dry (great read) discusses this. It is a bit dated, but worth it.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10301]

23 hours ago, Post Oak said:

Back to ERCOT for a moment.  Here's an article about the Southern Spirit transmission line that would connect Texas to the SE.

 

Who’s afraid of a 300-mile transmission line that could help decarbonize the Southeast?

Louisiana lawmakers and local utilities.

 

https://grist.org/energy/southern-spirit-transmission-line-louisiana-mississippi-texas/

yep, where the lawmakers have to step in. Should be no surprise that the for profit energy companies don't want anything that could hinder those said profits.

[texasdago 7575]

21 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Very true. And not just Austin. The book When the Rivers Run Dry (great read) discusses this. It is a bit dated, but worth it.

Was curious after looking at those numbers and looked up Houston.  Here's what they listed in August 2023...

Along with the 30 billion gallons of water lost in 2022, the city lost another 9 billion gallons from January to April 2023, according to the latest data. Some months, Houston lost of over 20 percent of its total water supply

[LCHorn 2621]

10 minutes ago, texasdago said:

Was curious after looking at those numbers and looked up Houston.  Here's what they listed in August 2023...

Along with the 30 billion gallons of water lost in 2022, the city lost another 9 billion gallons from January to April 2023, according to the latest data. Some months, Houston lost of over 20 percent of its total water supply

It's an economic loss in the sense that's treated water, but isn't that just helping recharge underground aquifers and preventing more subsidence loss?

[Rex Kramer 1338]

On 4/18/2024 at 8:54 AM, utee94 said:

No way man, do you even read this board?   Surlys MUST run their air conditioners at 68 throughout the summer.  

 

The mere notion that Texas with its population increases and forecasted growth will have a collective reduction in energy consumption is fucking hilarious. 

[Brisketexan 105155]

45 minutes ago, Catpfish said:

At the same time, unbelievable amounts of water are being just flat wasted by lack of system maintenance.  It's estimated that the City of Austin lost 6.9 BILLION gallons (roughly 21,175 acre feet) of potable water to leaks in 2022.  I'm sure that number is increasing year over year as the system ages.  Found a source from the LCRA that City of Austin and Austin Energy water pumped from the Colorado River plus other water rights was 185,548 acre feet in 2022.  If those numbers are close, you are looking at over 10% loss.  I freely admit that I really don't know shit about fuck except I know Austin loses a lot to leaks.

I'm sure it's the same for cities everywhere and I understand that you'll never be leak-free, but at some point, this issue has to be addressed.  I think very few people know/care about the extent of waste from this area alone.

Sure.  As mentioned with respect to almost all the other topics above....all it takes is money.

The irony is that citizens (and in response, the cities and gov't entities that represent them) have insisted on low, low, low rates, don't spend any unnecessary money (and almost ALL money is "unnecessary," don't you know).  So, decades upon decades of deferred maintenance is coming due.  And just like your house, when you've been skimping on maintenance and spending $500 a year, just replacing a shingle here and there, putting a bucket under leaky spots, etc.....eventually, you can't avoid the fact that you've got to do a whole roof replacement for $30k.

We have the infrastructure we've demanded for the past 50+ years (deliver me utility service, but don't spend any money doing so).  Now, we're starting to demand things like "maybe it shouldn't leak so much that we don't have enough water to drink next month."  Cool.  The bill for the system you've asked for is coming due. 

Note that this applies to roads and bridges, water, sewer....all of it.  The Boomers got it all built for cheap with post-war prosperity, and then insisted that they not pay a penny to maintain any of it (and they got their wish, meaning more money stayed in their pockets).  Now, like any number of any short-sighted Boomer policies....it's time to pay the piper.  Out of our pockets, of course.  Not theirs.

[texasdago 7575]

22 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

It's an economic loss in the sense that's treated water, but isn't that just helping recharge underground aquifers and preventing more subsidence loss?

I'm not an expert but I can't imagine that's the case... for Houston, is there such a thing as an aquifer?  Doesn't all that flow into the bayou and into the Gulf?  For Austin, I don't know but sure seems exceedingly wasteful and not all of Austin is in the recharge zone.  I live in the recharge zone for the Edwards aquifer but not applicable to all.

If I'm reading this correctly... https://tceq.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2e5afa3ba8144c30a49d3dc1ab49edcd

I think that yellow section goes into the Colorado river and downstream...

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

3 hours ago, LCHorn said:

It's an economic loss in the sense that's treated water, but isn't that just helping recharge underground aquifers and preventing more subsidence loss?

 

Depends on the depth of the aquifer (assuming there is one), porousness of the overlying soil/rock, how much gets sucked up by evapotranspiration, etc etc etc. 

Short answer: Maybe in some relatively few cases, mostly probably not. But even in those relatively few cases, its better to just fix the leaks as much as possible and leave the billions of gallons of wasted water in the ground/river/wherever. 

 

[Nivek 16945]

6 hours ago, LCHorn said:

It's an economic loss in the sense that's treated water, but isn't that just helping recharge underground aquifers and preventing more subsidence loss?

Often times aquifers are located deeper and are not in contact with the surface where it is being tapped into and the zone of recharge may be hundreds to 1000s of miles away.  Also the reason people like to tap into those waters is because they have been naturally filtered or filling those formations for quite some time (thousands of years).    The water that seeps into the ground or near surface ground water can be fine in areas, but it may also be contaminated by human activities such as underground gas tank leakage.   If I recall in parts of West Texas there were several feet of fuel floating on the water table due to leakage.    

Porosity (pore spaces) and permeability (a function of the connectivity of those pore spaces, cracks, and rock matrix and the rate at which fluid can move in the media ) are other controlling factors and while I am happy to chat about hydrology a bit and go in more depth if you are interested I suspect that many will not be.    But in short, just trying to pump water back in the the subsurface will not re-inflate the land or restore the ground level to its previous height.  There is really no economically feasible way of doing that once we start groundwater mining.  

[atomheartbevo 89730]

8 hours ago, Catpfish said:

It's estimated that the City of Austin lost 6.9 BILLION gallons (roughly 21,175 acre feet) of potable water to leaks in 2022.  I'm sure that number is increasing year over year as the system ages. 

They are working on fixing/replacing those old pipes.  I have to deal with the traffic issues from them digging up streets in our area almost every day.

[InkaUtexas 25987]

Speaking of water use and conservation. Not sure I like this.

https://www.kut.org/energy-environment/2024-04-19/san-marcos-changes-its-water-restriction-policy-for-the-first-time-in-nearly-10-years

The San Marcos City Council voted this week to change the city’s water restrictions during times of drought. The last time these rules were updated was in 2015. Since then, the region has experienced rapid population growth and increased water demand.

What’s changed?

Spoiler

The old restrictions reflected how much water was available locally. The new restrictions will reflect water levels across all the city’s water sources. This includes local sources like the Edwards Aquifer and some that stretch farther out like the Carrizo-Wilcox Aquifer.

“It doesn't necessarily mean we're using less Edwards water,” Tyler Hjorth, director of utilities for San Marcos, said Tuesday in a presentation to City Council members. He said water from the Edwards Aquifer is also two to five times cheaper than other sources.

Virginia Parker, executive director of the San Marcos River Foundation, said she’s afraid looking at the total water available may mislead residents about the seriousness of the region's drought conditions.

She said things may look better than they actually are as local water sources struggle to keep up with demand.

“The most representative drought measure would be what's going on underneath our feet,” she said.

Parker said she commends the city for exploring other water options, but the new drought measurement could also pose a problem for those who have private wells and rely solely on the local aquifer for their water.

“This has happened all over Texas: Municipalities go somewhere else in the state for their drinking water,” she said. “And then local wells around that resource end up going dry because that source is being pumped at a rate that it's not used to.”

The new ordinance also reduces the number of water restriction stages from five to three. Hjorth said that allows greater differences between the stages.

“[The previous stage system] really didn’t make sense for our citizens, and it was hard for them to track,” he said.

 

 

[Nivek 16945]

17 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

They are working on fixing/replacing those old pipes.  I have to deal with the traffic issues from them digging up streets in our area almost every day.

I believe San Antonio did this as well years back.   Dallas went a different route, they wanted to create the Marvin-Nichols dam to offset their leaks.

[elfenix 34310]

On 4/19/2024 at 11:35 AM, Catpfish said:

At the same time, unbelievable amounts of water are being just flat wasted by lack of system maintenance.  It's estimated that the City of Austin lost 6.9 BILLION gallons (roughly 21,175 acre feet) of potable water to leaks in 2022.  I'm sure that number is increasing year over year as the system ages.  Found a source from the LCRA that City of Austin and Austin Energy water pumped from the Colorado River plus other water rights was 185,548 acre feet in 2022.  If those numbers are close, you are looking at over 10% loss.  I freely admit that I really don't know shit about fuck except I know Austin loses a lot to leaks.

I'm sure it's the same for cities everywhere and I understand that you'll never be leak-free, but at some point, this issue has to be addressed.  I think very few people know/care about the extent of waste from this area alone.

this is a problem that is driven by the way we chose to build cities in the US after WW2.  pretty much everywhere the replacement cost of public infrastructure is greater than the value of the private property it supports.  its inherently unsustainable. 

interview on texas standard

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2024/4/1/heres-the-real-reason-houston-is-going-broke

 

[Biff Tannen 45691]

49 minutes ago, elfenix said:

its inherently unsustainable

And therefore a perfect representation of America.

[Dnaguy 12002]

In Texas, ex-oil and gas workers champion geothermal energy as a replacement for fossil-fueled power plants (click2houston.com)

 

Interesting.

Can't comment on the economics.

But interesting nonetheless.

 

Do places like Bozeman, Montana which happens to have a lot geothermal activity have any geothermal electrical generation?

[Rex Kramer 1338]

On 4/18/2024 at 2:10 PM, BeardIP said:

I have a buddy who bought an astro turf business franchise where you buy the regional area, a few years ago.

He paid $900k a few years ago and now makes $6 million bucks a year. It's a business that is just him, his wife and his brother. Think: astro turfing peoples backyards who are sick of yard work, custom golf stuff like backyard putting greens (and even a par 3 single hole for rich people).

I think it's still early innings for that type of business-- especially if regulations ever happen that even come close to what you described...

Not early innings. I’ve had this for 11 years, and live in a pretty regulated town.