Iran

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Yeah, there’s that and killing Nazis.

[blackmarketbaby 118]

4 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Those monkeys are fighting over a waterhole. More recently we monkeys have had the luxury of fighting over oil seeps, while we have actual monkeys breaking their hands punching walls while in our care, and we wonder whether to take them to a vet or a people doctor, as our Great Sage of Alabama has put it. And we went from tossing bones in the air in a victory dance to space ships, but it's looking like we are gonna be screeching over muddy ponds again if present trends continue. 

And that's foreign policy. 

Only a coordinator could lose someone in the well 

[WhatTheBuck 28904]

6 hours ago, Ragnarok said:

If it's about Iran, I'll take Iconoclast every time.  I don't see how anybody who watched how North Korea played out could be for the Iran deal.  We paid the Norks billions for empty promises that were soon broken. Obama followed the same script, he just paid a hundred times more.   This deal is unfathomable, even for Obama. There is simply no reason to continue pretending to believe Iran isn't continuing their nuclear program.

To quote a stupid man...

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[SmokeyTheBear 5569]

8 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

America has had a globalization foreign policy since WWII.  How the fuck do you think we became the biggest superpower the world has ever seen? 

It was economic and political integration with the rest of the world.

I would add cultural integration is huge as well. It's amazing what the power of movies, music, brands, etc can have to sell the idea of American freedom to the everyday person in other nations. 

[DigglerontheHoof 21516]

Iranians burning American flags and shouting "death to America"....that shit never happens. 

[DixonHur 11941]

6 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Iranians burning American flags and shouting "death to America"....that shit never happens. 

Unfortunately, Trump's doing his best to make their dream come true

[DigglerontheHoof 21516]

No doubt, Trump is a moron doing moronic shit, I'm just saying that Iran shouting death to America and burning our flag isn't exactly a harbinger of catastrophic things...they've been doing that shit for decades.  

[FondrenRoad 4378]

The real fun will start when we supposedly begin sanctioning EU multinationals in 6 months. I'm guessing we back down and give them waivers just like the tariff nonsense. If we do that, we'll just be fucking ourselves because only our companies will be banned from Iranian business. The Trump admin is all bark and no bite on everything. Zero fucking follow through which I guess is good in a way, but it would be best if he wouldn't bark in the first place and make us look like our word is meaningless. 

[ousuxndallas 65]

Brisket has sounded the alarm bells that our “fragile” institutions (we aren’t Hungary or Poland Brisket) are under assault because of Trump’s rule via executive orders but did not call out Obama for creating this mess in the first place by enacting his signature pieces of legislation that way. What do you expect would happen when the other party came into power?  If you are trying to pretend to be non-partisan and above the fray you need to do a better job. I’m a life-long Republican who was voted Democratic for President only in 2004 and 2008 because I was a staunch opponent of the Iraq War. Trump has done a lot of dumb shit I don’t like. I will give him credit where it’s due. As crazy as it sounds, he has a much more coherent foreign policy advancing American interests vis a vis our enemies like Iran.

Taparep.

[bad_teammate 13479]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Hell, agreed.

[Lagunamadre 1975]

If it makes anybody feel better, our State Department has no fucking clue about what comes next either. This, uhh, did not go well for them. 

 

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/05/281959.htm

[kevwun 16269]

Russia slaps us in the face with their dick and then sticks it in the mashed potatoes for good measure and he won't enact sanctions against them.  He's going to sanction Iran though because Obama.  Our European allies aren't going to go along with the sanctions and we're going to look like morons. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by kevwun

[Fozzz 152]

10 hours ago, Ragnarok said:

If it's about Iran, I'll take Iconoclast every time.  I don't see how anybody who watched how North Korea played out could be for the Iran deal.  We paid the Norks billions for empty promises that were soon broken. Obama followed the same script, he just paid a hundred times more.   This deal is unfathomable, even for Obama. There is simply no reason to continue pretending to believe Iran isn't continuing their nuclear program.

We shouldn’t have made a deal because dubya unilaterally blew up the agreed framework, resulting in the DPRK becoming a nuclear power?  Smart. 

[bad_teammate 13479]

14 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

If it makes anybody feel better, our State Department has no fucking clue about what comes next either. This, uhh, did not go well for them. 

 

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/05/281959.htm

Huh, I guess gutting the state department wasn't a great idea after all. loltrump

[kevwun 16269]

I'm sure sanctions drawn up by people with little to no experience drafting sanctions will turn out great.

Edited May 9, 2018 by kevwun

[relapse98 634]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Huh, I guess gutting the state department wasn't a great idea after all. loltrump

This is the shit you get when you try to implement retard sayings like “I don’t want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.”

[softlynow 1893]

4 minutes ago, kevwun said:

I'm sure sanctions drawn up by people with little to no experience drafting sanctions will turn out great.

Miller did a bang up job with the first travel ban. I'm sure this will work out fine.

[Hank Kingsley 21598]

My dad is Iranian, so I'm not gonna let Iconoclast be the sole Iran authority on this thread. 

To say the US-Iran relationship is complex is an understatement.  You could make a very strong argument that the United States is the main reason why the country is so fucked up.  How should Iranians feel about the US when their Democratic PM was overthrown in a coup led by the CIA in 1953? You know who helped them create their nuclear program? WE DID. Do you know who gave them weapons grade uranium? WE DID.  I'm sure the majority of y'all know that, but FYI for others that don't. 

Obama's Iran deal was not perfect by any stretch at all, and the Iranians in charge are still fucking over their citizens.  But he treated Iran like and adult and showed them some fucking respect, and in turn, Iran had basically returned the favor. This is how the whole thing is basically playing out:

US: You're not complying with this deal. 

Iran: Dude, we are complying. 

US: We don't believe you. Plus Obama gave you a bunch of money.

Iran: Prove we did something wrong.  Oh, and that was OUR money.

US:  Fuck that. Deal's off. Sanctions are back on, motherfuckers. Oh, and we'll add a few more. 

Iran: This is fucking bullshit. I guess we'll have to look into starting up our program again to protect ourselves. 

US: OH, YEAH? I FUCKING DARE YOU. SEE WHAT FUCKING HAPPENS. REGIME CHANGE, MOTHERFUCKERS!!!

 

Look, Iran is a fucking mess. They need a revolution. Let the Iranian people do it themselves. US interference CAUSED the goddamn Islamic radicals to come in power, but now US interference is going to make things better? When are we going to fucking learn?

And BTW, my dad probably agrees with most of what Iconoclast is saying.  I think emotion is getting in the way, but's pretty understandable.  Under Khomeini's rule, his father lost his job, had his home taken away, was sent to prison, and was literally executed by firing squad for simply not converting to Islam.  My family has been enormously affected by radical Islam.

My dad loves the United States. He came here 45 years ago and has never returned to his homeland. He wants change, and doesn't really care how it's done.I obviously think it's a bit more complicated in order to truly improve the country.

[wildcat09 29557]

10 hours ago, Ragnarok said:

If it's about Iran, I'll take Iconoclast every time.  I don't see how anybody who watched how North Korea played out could be for the Iran deal.  We paid the Norks billions for empty promises that were soon broken. Obama followed the same script, he just paid a hundred times more.   This deal is unfathomable, even for Obama. There is simply no reason to continue pretending to believe Iran isn't continuing their nuclear program.

There's no reason to continue pretending to believe that you don't fuck your cousin. 

[Bat Guano 363]

1 hour ago, Lagunamadre said:

If it makes anybody feel better, our State Department has no fucking clue about what comes next either. This, uhh, did not go well for them. 

 

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/05/281959.htm

Oddly enough, that doesn't make me feel better.

 

Trump may get lucky on this, at least short term; the Europeans are pressuring Iran to abide by the terms of the deal even without US participation, and they may do that. So Trump will be able to say he's advanced the ball in some way - see, no bomb yet! The trouble is, he's got no leverage to make a new deal; at this point he wouldn't even be able to get the existing deal, much less a better one. Unilateral sanctions are not as good as sanctions coordinated with many other countries, so the only effect is that we're isolating ourselves.

The real aim of the pullout is pretty clearly to put us on a path to war. It's what Bolton has wanted ever since he started growing that mustache, and, not to get all alternative-hypothesis or anything, but Netanyahu has been pushing in the same direction for a long time, and his views seem to have a lot of sway in this administration. I had originally put the favorites for a Trump war at North Korea and Syria in a dead heat, but Iran seems to be coming up fast on the outside.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Bat Guano

[Biff Tannen 46061]

I am yet to see a reason that we couldn't have amended the deal instead of trashing it entirely.  Both dotus and congress has said "it just couldn't be done".  Give me a reason you fucks.  

[Fozzz 152]

imo, given the paucity of evidence that Iran was even trying to develop a nuclear weapon, it was absurd for them to be forced into the deal to begin with 

[wildcat09 29557]

4 minutes ago, Bat Guano said:

Oddly enough, that doesn't make me feel better.

 

Trump may get lucky on this, at least short term; the Europeans are pressuring Iran to abide by the terms of the deal even without US participation, and they may do that. So Trump will be able to say he's advanced the ball in some way - see, no bomb yet! The trouble is, he's got no leverage to make a new deal; at this point he wouldn't even be able to get the existing deal, much less a better one. Unilateral sanctions are not as good as sanctions coordinated with many other countries, so the only effect is that we're isolating ourselves.

The real aim of the pullout is pretty clearly to put us on a path to war. It's what Bolton has wanted ever since he started growing that mustache, and, not to get all alternative-hypothesis or anything, but Netanyahu has been pushing in the same direction for a long time, and his views seem to have a lot of sway in this administration. I had originally put the favorites for a Trump war at North Korea and Syria in a dead heat, but Iran seems to be coming up fast on the outside.

If Trump is consistent about anything, it's his method of taking a hostage at the outset of any negotiation and shooting the hostage. 

[SmokeyBear1861 107]

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by SmokeyBear1861

[kevwun 16269]

We gave the hardliners a new old enemy to focus the populace's hate towards instead of themselves.  They need an external enemy or the people start pushing for reforms at home. 

[relapse98 634]

19 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I am yet to see a reason that we couldn't have amended the deal instead of trashing it entirely.  Both dotus and congress has said "it just couldn't be done".  Give me a reason you fucks.  

Uhm, that was litterally answered in post #206.

 

Quote

To answer your question, we now have an opportunity to negotiate a deal which prevents Iran from getting nuclear weapons, where before there was a certainty that they would get them. What do I win?

Ok yeah, his answer made less than zero sense. I got nothing.

[relapse98 634]

5 minutes ago, SmokeyBear1861 said:

video

Good thing we got rid of all influence we had over them. Good job, dotard.

[Caracara 41]

Iran, Kerry, Obama and the EU leaders really loved that nuclear pact, but that doesn't convince me it was good for the average infidel.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Caracara

[Hank Kingsley 21598]

7 minutes ago, SmokeyBear1861 said:

 

If you're posting this thinking Trump did the right thing because "look, they hate us!", you're wrong.  Dotard just gave these hardliners the biggest gift. They're fucking loving this development.   Instead of these assholes rightly getting the majority of the blame, now they can try to shift the people's anger back to America. 

 

[Fozzz 152]

Nah, didn't you hear?  The Iranians are going to overthrow the regime and install the Shah's son. lmao 

[bad_teammate 13479]

Oh no they burned a flag let's waste thousands of soldiers' lives and hundreds of billions of our dollars to show how mad we are!!!!!!!!!

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

One of the main justifications for Trump's action yesterday is that Iran is a "state sponsor of terrorism." And that may be. It depends on your definition of terrorism, and who is ultimately responsible for it, but my question is this: when has there ever been an act of Iranian-sponsored terrorism on American soil?

Okay, arguably, the American embassy in Tehran was American soil, but it's hard to say that anything that happens in a cataclysmic revolution is terrorism. And there were no fatalities in that incident, and it was only American soil in the sense that diplomats define turf. And as Kingsley pointed out, we had royally fucked them over in the Mossadegh coup and subsequent undying support of the Shah and his secret police. 

After that -- whatcha got?

Here's the best AIPAC could come up with:

• The Hezbollah attacks on US Marines. In Lebanon. What the fuck were we even doing there? Literally the last thing Ronald Reagan said in office: "The only regret I have after eight years is sending those troops to Lebanon." 
• In 1988, one of our ships hit a mine right off their coast. If the Iranian navy, was prowling around our ports in New York, New Orleans, LA, and Houston, we might drop a few mines out there as a disincentive. And is that terrorism, or proxy war? 
• 1996 truck bombing of our airmen in Saudi, at the Khobar Towers. Again, what the fuck were our soldiers doing on the ground on Saudi? And there's a theory that the Saudis pinned this on Iran; some believe that it was really elements of Al-Qaeda who were responsible. Bin Laden, years later, repeatedly told the world that his primary driving force for 9/11 was to get our infidels out of Saudi, so....who do you believe? Why would Iran bomb our forces in Saudi? Maybe to pin it on them, but in retrospect it seems far likelier that the same bunch who took down the Twin Towers took down the Khobar Towers.  
• Their influence on the Shia in Iraq. Again, what the fuck were we doing there? And if we literally invade a country, it's hard to call what happens in the ensuing war terrorism.
• And the last and most recent item on their list is that the Iranian navy has the nerve to "harass" our ships in the Persian Gulf. Again, if some Iranian destroyer popped up off the coast of Pensacola, I guaran-damn-tee you we would do more than "harass" it. 

That's all AIPAC can come up with -- AIPAC, Likud's Voice of Israel in America propaganda arm. Note: nothing on American soil. Several in defense of their own homeland. The others in the context of war or revolutions. 

And we take the Saudi / Israeli side for what reason? 

 

[Lurch 5949]

I am yet to see a reason that we couldn't have amended the deal instead of trashing it entirely.  Both dotus and congress has said "it just couldn't be done".  Give me a reason you fucks.  

I can’t find it now, but read yesterday that a huge opponent of/lobbyist against the deal actually quit once he read it because he realized it was as good as could reasonably be expected.

[Anastasis 23699]

Just now, MaybeACoordinator said:

And we take the Saudi / Israeli side for what reason? 

 

Oil and landing pad for Jesus, respectively. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Anastasis

[hayden_horn 11401]

23 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

If you're posting this thinking Trump did the right thing because "look, they hate us!", you're wrong.  Dotard just gave these hardliners the biggest gift. They're fucking loving this development.   Instead of these assholes rightly getting the majority of the blame, now they can try to shift the people's anger back to America. 

 

yeah, this is the overarching point. iran was tipping toward revolution or reform. the green revolution ultimately did not succeed, but led to a larger movement and large scale protests throughout the nation. now trump just gave the hardliners exactly what hey needed to say "see, this is what happens when you trust the west. they FUCK YOU AT THE DRIVE-THRU."

and thus, they solidify their power and control, find more reasons to seek conflict with the west in general. 

i know that trump fans love his "negotiating style" but it's all tactical. what did we just fucking accomplish?

iconoclast thinking this will result in free elections free of the mullahs is the darkest of comedies. the only way that happens now is with a river of blood and ash through the streets of tehran.

Edited May 9, 2018 by hayden_horn

[GHOSTUSER 361]

4 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Too bad those Islamic assholes didn’t catch fire themselves. Would have loved to have seen the mullah’s turban catch fire.

[hpslugga 4096]

9 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

yeah, this is the overarching point. iran was tipping toward revolution or reform. the green revolution ultimately did not succeed, but led to a larger movement and large scale protests throughout the nation. now trump just gave the hardliners exactly what hey needed to say "see, this is what happens when you trust the west. they FUCK YOU AT THE DRIVE-THRU."

and thus, they solidify their power and control, find more reasons to seek conflict with the west in general. 

i know that trump fans love his "negotiating style" but it's all tactical. what did we just fucking accomplish?

iconoclast thinking this will result in free elections free of the mullahs is the darkest of comedies. the only way that happens now is with a river of blood and ash through the streets of tehran.

All of this plus the quote to which you were responding. Goddamnit this is embarrassing.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

15 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

One of the main justifications for Trump's action yesterday is that Iran is a "state sponsor of terrorism." And that may be. It depends on your definition of terrorism, and who is ultimately responsible for it, but my question is this: when has there ever been an act of Iranian-sponsored terrorism on American soil?

Okay, arguably, the American embassy in Tehran was American soil, but it's hard to say that anything that happens in a cataclysmic revolution is terrorism. And there were no fatalities in that incident, and it was only American soil in the sense that diplomats define turf. And as Kingsley pointed out, we had royally fucked them over in the Mossadegh coup and subsequent undying support of the Shah and his secret police. 

After that -- whatcha got?

Here's the best AIPAC could come up with:

• The Hezbollah attacks on US Marines. In Lebanon. What the fuck were we even doing there? Literally the last thing Ronald Reagan said in office: "The only regret I have after eight years is sending those troops to Lebanon." 
• In 1988, one of our ships hit a mine right off their coast. If the Iranian navy, was prowling around our ports in New York, New Orleans, LA, and Houston, we might drop a few mines out there as a disincentive. And is that terrorism, or proxy war? 
• 1996 truck bombing of our airmen in Saudi, at the Khobar Towers. Again, what the fuck were our soldiers doing on the ground on Saudi? And there's a theory that the Saudis pinned this on Iran; some believe that it was really elements of Al-Qaeda who were responsible. Bin Laden, years later, repeatedly told the world that his primary driving force for 9/11 was to get our infidels out of Saudi, so....who do you believe? Why would Iran bomb our forces in Saudi? Maybe to pin it on them, but in retrospect it seems far likelier that the same bunch who took down the Twin Towers took down the Khobar Towers.  
• Their influence on the Shia in Iraq. Again, what the fuck were we doing there? And if we literally invade a country, it's hard to call what happens in the ensuing war terrorism.
• And the last and most recent item on their list is that the Iranian navy has the nerve to "harass" our ships in the Persian Gulf. Again, if some Iranian destroyer popped up off the coast of Pensacola, I guaran-damn-tee you we would do more than "harass" it. 

That's all AIPAC can come up with -- AIPAC, Likud's Voice of Israel in America propaganda arm. Note: nothing on American soil. Several in defense of their own homeland. The others in the context of war or revolutions. 

And we take the Saudi / Israeli side for what reason? 

 

Umm, overrunning the US embassy in Tehran and taking hostages was probably the worst violation of international norms in modern history. The US had every right to seek military action in what was an act worthy of going to war over.

[hpslugga 4096]

6 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Umm, overrunning the US embassy in Tehran and taking hostages was probably the worst violation of international norms in modern history. The US had every right to seek military action in what was an act worthy of going to war over.

"It's ok when we do something majorly hideous to them, but not ok when they do something far less hideous to us."

Seriously, the amount of hyperbole you just used in those two sentences is shocking.

Edited May 9, 2018 by hpslugga

[Aqua Buddha 14782]

At what point is Trump going to start making his own deals instead of just breaking previous deals?  There's no stated reason for breaking the Iran deal except that Obama and Hillary put it together.  

[Caracara 41]

2 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

At what point is Trump going to start making his own deals instead of just breaking previous deals?  There's no stated reason for breaking the Iran deal except that Obama and Hillary put it together.  

Trump didn't mention Obama and Kerry in his speech, but he said the deal had big holes and Iran was able to work on their nuke program in Syria.

[wildcat09 29557]

Just now, Caracara said:

Trump didn't mention Obama and Kerry in his speech, but he said the deal had big holes and Iran was able to work on their nuke program in Syria.

That was a lie. He was lying.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

4 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

"It's ok when we do something majorly hideous to them, but not ok when they do something far less hideous to us."

Seriously, the amount of hyperbole you just used in those two sentences is shocking.

As if holding embassy employees hostage is a bigger violation of "international norms" than the use of chemical weapons.  As far as violations of "international norms" go in the modern era, the Iran hostage crisis is way down the list.  Russia's use of a nerve agent to target people on UK soil only happened a few weeks ago.

[Aqua Buddha 14782]

8 minutes ago, Caracara said:

Trump didn't mention Obama and Kerry in his speech, but he said the deal had big holes and Iran was able to work on their nuke program in Syria.

His new Secretary of State said Iran was in full compliance with the deal.

[SimonBolivar 11032]

21 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Umm, overrunning the US embassy in Tehran and taking hostages was probably the worst violation of international norms in modern history. The US had every right to seek military action in what was an act worthy of going to war over.

I think this is true but this also happened when my dad was in high school...he's 57 now.

[kevwun 16269]

If that's fair game then it's ok for them to still be pissed at us for helping install the Shah.  Oh wait.

[Caracara 41]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

That was a lie. He was lying.

It's good you're weighing in, wildcat.  Expertise is needed here. OK, POTUS blew up the deal out of spite, and now he's lying, just making shit up  Where did those barrels of iran-deal cash go?  

[Caracara 41]

2 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

His new Secretary of State said Iran was in full compliance with the deal.

If the deal was terrible and allowed the nuke program to go forward right up to the last step, then full compliance isn't worth much.

[Aqua Buddha 14782]

4 minutes ago, Caracara said:

If the deal was terrible and allowed the nuke program to go forward right up to the last step, then full compliance isn't worth much.

How is Trump violating the US side of the deal going to bring them under compliance?