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Things not going well for trans athlete bills (except in SEC/third world states)

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Js1

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Florida - Bill to bar transgender athletes from girls’ and women’s sports in Florida hits a wall

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article250811189.html

Texas - Texas transgender sports bill will likely die in committee, chairman says

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/texas/article/Democrats-hope-to-defeat-Texas-transgender-sports-16118317.php

North Dakota - North Dakota governor vetoes bill restricting transgender athletes

https://www.thedickinsonpress.com/news/government-and-politics/6995686-North-Dakota-governor-vetoes-bill-restricting-transgender-athletes

Kansas - Kansas Gov. Kelly vetoes GOP attempt to ban transgender athletes from girls sports

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article250869464.html

Utah - Ban on transgender athletes in girls sports stalls in Utah Senate committee

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/2/24/22299466/2021-legislature-transgender-athletes-bill-stalls-in-senate-committee-school-sports

The only states who have passed bills:

  • Oklahoma
  • Arkansas
  • Tennessee
  • Mississippi
  • South Dakota

Likely to sign bill:

  • Alabama
  • West Virginia
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BrazilHorn

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I just don't see issue here. The numbers of male to female trans athletes (as I don't see many if any female to male trans athletes beating boys out in sports) has to be damn near irrelevant across the middle/high school landscape.

This should be something that the Rs get totally behind allowing to happen as it would seem to set a Title IX fight up down the line which I imagine most of them hate.

Just such a weird hill to die on for the Rs here. Although that does seem to be their MO. It's just so odd to me. I guess I see a HS school kid being pretty brave to not only go through the process (whether taking hormones or not) of identifying/living out as the opposite gender that if after that they wish to play sports then fucking let them. The US has too many fat asses sitting on the coach to discourage anyone from playing sports IMO.

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Js1

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Because culture war.  The gays aren't scary anymore - ITS THE SCARY TRANS PEOPLE WHO WILL HURT YOUR DAUGHTER IN SPORTS AND MOLEST THEM IN BATHROOMS.  Or wait, I think the bathroom wars died too.   

Now it's just protecting the sanctity of sports or something.

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Mrs Whiggins

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28 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

I just don't see issue here. The numbers of male to female trans athletes (as I don't see many if any female to male trans athletes beating boys out in sports) has to be damn near irrelevant across the middle/high school landscape.

This should be something that the Rs get totally behind allowing to happen as it would seem to set a Title IX fight up down the line which I imagine most of them hate.

Just such a weird hill to die on for the Rs here. Although that does seem to be their MO. It's just so odd to me. I guess I see a HS school kid being pretty brave to not only go through the process (whether taking hormones or not) of identifying/living out as the opposite gender that if after that they wish to play sports then fucking let them. The US has too many fat asses sitting on the coach to discourage anyone from playing sports IMO.

I did the math in another thread. Very small number. This is about the outrage machines and demonizing groups that have little political power.

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Chuckie Finster

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33 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Because culture war.  The gays aren't scary anymore - ITS THE SCARY TRANS PEOPLE WHO WILL HURT YOUR DAUGHTER IN SPORTS AND MOLEST THEM IN BATHROOMS.  Or wait, I think the bathroom wars died too.   

Now it's just protecting the sanctity of sports or something.

I graduated high school with someone who went on to be a first round NFL draft pick at defensive end.  If fairness is the issue here, well nobody can tell me it was "fair" that I had to compete in the same athletic contests as that behemoth.

Edited by Chuckie Finster
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Guest Lobo

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30 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Because culture war.  The gays aren't scary anymore - ITS THE SCARY TRANS PEOPLE WHO WILL HURT YOUR DAUGHTER IN SPORTS AND MOLEST THEM IN BATHROOMS.  Or wait, I think the bathroom wars died too.   

Now it's just protecting the sanctity of sports or something.

I think Dan Patrick bets a lot of money on girl's middle school field hockey or something, because he really suddenly gives a shit about girl's public school sports all of a sudden.  

And yes, I know for a fact he has a women's field hockey uniform that he dresses up in sometimes.  NTTAWWT.  

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Guest Lobo

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I guess where there's lots of money in prize money and sponsorships on the line, you want it to be as even as possible.  But a child going through gender issues in 8th grade wanting to play on my daughter's soccer team...who gives a shit?  Only ones who flop around more dramatic on the ground than my daughter are 'male' soccer players, mainly European.  And South American.  And Middle Eastern.  And Mexican.  And....wait, I'm getting a trend here.  

But we're talking public school sports for the most part here, right?  7th-12th?  

Look, I'll admit...if there's a girl's state playoff game of basketball or soccer match and college recruiters are there looking to pass out scholarship offers and your daughter is just getting shoved around by some 6-3/215# behemoth who claims to be on the road to gender transformation and you look like you can't handle physical play and get your scholarship offer yanked...maybe there's a legit claim there.  But the odds of that are so fucking miniscule, we don't need blanket-bias laws in dozens of states.  For the most part, each school district might have 1 or 2 boys who identify as girls and want to actually play softball.  Nobody with gender identity challenges is at home, or with their doctor, contemplating removing their penis and testicles so they can have all the glory that comes with rowing crew in the deep south.  What the fuck?  

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heso

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3 hours ago, MoJames said:

The only place I've seen this pop up in real world scenarios thus far if I'm recalling correctly, was in women's cycling? Wasn't there a male to female athlete doing well in the professional circuit? 

The two that I’ve heard of are one where some high school girls track athletes were suing the state of Connecticut (I think) claiming that they were missing out on opportunities to compete at higher levels because they got beat by two trans girls, and the other was a power lifter who won 9 of 9 events and broke a bunch of female records and then was stripped of all of the trophies and records after the governing body found out she was trans.

I’m sure dominating their sport played no role in their transition, but I’m not surprised that girls and women who try to compete at the highest level of their sport have a problem with trans athletes setting marks that are likely impossible for a person who was born female.

Edit:

That’s not to say that I agree with the women that feel that way. Prohibiting trans women from sports runs antithetical to everything sports should represent. Also, no one except Karen and her parents care that she missed out on states by half a second or who holds the female masters 40-44 powerlifting records. Especially compared to what the opportunity to participate means for the trans women. 

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wildcat09

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3 hours ago, BrazilHorn said:

I just don't see issue here. The numbers of male to female trans athletes (as I don't see many if any female to male trans athletes beating boys out in sports) has to be damn near irrelevant across the middle/high school landscape.

This should be something that the Rs get totally behind allowing to happen as it would seem to set a Title IX fight up down the line which I imagine most of them hate.

Just such a weird hill to die on for the Rs here. Although that does seem to be their MO. It's just so odd to me. I guess I see a HS school kid being pretty brave to not only go through the process (whether taking hormones or not) of identifying/living out as the opposite gender that if after that they wish to play sports then fucking let them. The US has too many fat asses sitting on the coach to discourage anyone from playing sports IMO.

Cruelty against society's most vulnerable is the only thing they care about. 

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JimmyJames

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On 4/22/2021 at 2:06 PM, Js1 said:

Florida - Bill to bar transgender athletes from girls’ and women’s sports in Florida hits a wall

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article250811189.html

Texas - Texas transgender sports bill will likely die in committee, chairman says

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/texas/article/Democrats-hope-to-defeat-Texas-transgender-sports-16118317.php

North Dakota - North Dakota governor vetoes bill restricting transgender athletes

https://www.thedickinsonpress.com/news/government-and-politics/6995686-North-Dakota-governor-vetoes-bill-restricting-transgender-athletes

Kansas - Kansas Gov. Kelly vetoes GOP attempt to ban transgender athletes from girls sports

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article250869464.html

Utah - Ban on transgender athletes in girls sports stalls in Utah Senate committee

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/2/24/22299466/2021-legislature-transgender-athletes-bill-stalls-in-senate-committee-school-sports

The only states who have passed bills:

  • Oklahoma
  • Arkansas
  • Tennessee
  • Mississippi
  • South Dakota

Likely to sign bill:

  • Alabama
  • West Virginia

That’s an absolute murderers row of shitty states. Thought Tennessee and South Dakota might be a slight step above the other shitholes but I guess not. 

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TwiceHorn

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On 4/22/2021 at 2:41 PM, BrazilHorn said:

I just don't see issue here. The numbers of male to female trans athletes (as I don't see many if any female to male trans athletes beating boys out in sports) has to be damn near irrelevant across the middle/high school landscape.

This should be something that the Rs get totally behind allowing to happen as it would seem to set a Title IX fight up down the line which I imagine most of them hate.

Just such a weird hill to die on for the Rs here. Although that does seem to be their MO. It's just so odd to me. I guess I see a HS school kid being pretty brave to not only go through the process (whether taking hormones or not) of identifying/living out as the opposite gender that if after that they wish to play sports then fucking let them. The US has too many fat asses sitting on the coach to discourage anyone from playing sports IMO.

Because it's not really about competition, or fairness.  It's about hatred and cruelty toward "other."

You are absolutely correct that it's going to monkey up Title XI something fierce.  But that's going to happen with or without state laws.  And it can't really be "fixed" in the way they want without rewriting TItle IX and Title VII.

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Homercles

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Aren’t there more important things legislators can worry about?  On the other hand it’s certainly impressive how lockstep the GOP can move at all levels when they find a boogeyman to target.  
 

But delicious that Caitlyn Jenner is running as a republican in California. 

Edited by Homercles
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sheeeit

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I agree that this is a stupid issue.  Life is brutal enough being trans.    
 

I also can see the argument purely from a girl athletes perspective.   No amount of training and hard work and dedication can overcome the inherent physical advantages a trans woman has.   
 

i 

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BearSchlong

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I think we should have additional competitive categories.

Men's

Women's

Trans men's

Trans Women's.

Fluids

That's the only way to handle it fairly.

My nephew is probably going to transition.  Thank God he lives in the Portland OR 'burbs and they have a LGBTQ club in middle school so he can explore this in a safe space.  I'm totally supportive.

But if I was a straight girl and kept getting my ass kicked by trans guys I'd be pissed.

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Huckleberry

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Sports are segregated for competitive reasons because of the scientific fact of sexual dimorphism. The issue is that society has conflated sex and gender for countless generations so they're called boys and girls sports instead of male and female sports.

But even that, of course, is based on a fantasy where there are exactly two polar opposite sexes and no spectrum in between. However, there are absolutely valid competitive reasons for people to have an issue with trans girls competing in female divisions. Ignoring that reality doesn't really help anyone's argument.

If regulations required that trans girls compete in a male division, many people would still be very upset about that. There wouldn't be anything inherently wrong with it, though. Trans girls have an undeniable athletic advantage over most girls based on testosterone during their physical development. Don't get me wrong, there would still be countless social issues and lots of assholes being evil toward those competitors for "dressing like a girl" or whatever in a male division. When you consider the social reality it is probably better to allow them to compete in the girl/female division.

The arguments that do fall short, though, are the ones that nobody cares about Suzy not winning because a trans girl beat her. If nobody should ever care about winning then there's no point in competition. And more relevantly, if winning doesn't matter then the trans girls shouldn't have a competitive issue with competing in the male division.

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sheeeit

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I agree that this is a tough issue and states are really over reacting. It is brutal enough being trans And we should all be mindful of making their lives easier not harder.
 

I also can see the argument purely from a girl athletes perspective.   No amount of training and hard work and dedication can overcome the inherent physical advantages a trans woman has.   The science on this is still rather new but, at least preliminarily, the studies show that trans Women on average are taller and have much more muscle mass than cis women. Much of the solution, like that of the NCAA, is to allow trans women to participate after a year of testosterone suppression therapy. The problem with this, again at least preliminarily, is that the science says that even with testosterone suppression, trans women have a physical advantage over cis women.  The thing that we don’t know at this point is how big is the advantage.
 

I have seen a lot of people here making an argument that more people playing sports is better and I agree.  The thing that I have trouble agreeing on is why is it so important for a trans woman to compete against other women as opposed to competing against men? Is it a potential bullying situation that people are worried about?  Because if it is just a spirit of competition argument then I see no difference in a trans woman finishing ninth in the men’s division versus first in the women’s.

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J.R. Juniors Junior Jr.

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4 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

That’s an absolute murderers row of shitty states. Thought Tennessee and South Dakota might be a slight step above the other shitholes but I guess not. 

 

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Kristi Noem says "hi."

Too bad, as I love SD and could see living near Rapid City in retirement.

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JimmyJames

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1 hour ago, sheeeit said:

I agree that this is a tough issue and states are really over reacting. It is brutal enough being trans And we should all be mindful of making their lives easier not harder.
 

I also can see the argument purely from a girl athletes perspective.   No amount of training and hard work and dedication can overcome the inherent physical advantages a trans woman has.   The science on this is still rather new but, at least preliminarily, the studies show that trans Women on average are taller and have much more muscle mass than cis women. Much of the solution, like that of the NCAA, is to allow trans women to participate after a year of testosterone suppression therapy. The problem with this, again at least preliminarily, is that the science says that even with testosterone suppression, trans women have a physical advantage over cis women.  The thing that we don’t know at this point is how big is the advantage.
 

I have seen a lot of people here making an argument that more people playing sports is better and I agree.  The thing that I have trouble agreeing on is why is it so important for a trans woman to compete against other women as opposed to competing against men? Is it a potential bullying situation that people are worried about?  Because if it is just a spirit of competition argument then I see no difference in a trans woman finishing ninth in the men’s division versus first in the women’s.

Yeah and instead of passing shitty bullshit laws based on hysteria we should just deal with the issue ourselves as a reasonable society normally would do and like we used to. Just like guns. Just like abortion. And just like immigration.

But republicans don’t want to do that. They want to politicize every fucking thing and make it impossible to deal with so assholes can score political points and foxnews can make a bunch of money. Like billions.

Fuck them.

 

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TexasEd

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9 hours ago, Homercles said:

Aren’t there more important things legislators can worry about?  On the other hand it’s certainly impressive how lockstep the GOP can move at all levels when they find a boogeyman to target.  
 

But delicious that Caitlyn Jenner is running as a republican in California. 

The power grid?

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On 4/22/2021 at 2:41 PM, BrazilHorn said:

I just don't see issue here. The numbers of male to female trans athletes (as I don't see many if any female to male trans athletes beating boys out in sports) has to be damn near irrelevant across the middle/high school landscape.

This should be something that the Rs get totally behind allowing to happen as it would seem to set a Title IX fight up down the line which I imagine most of them hate.

Just such a weird hill to die on for the Rs here. Although that does seem to be their MO. It's just so odd to me. I guess I see a HS school kid being pretty brave to not only go through the process (whether taking hormones or not) of identifying/living out as the opposite gender that if after that they wish to play sports then fucking let them. The US has too many fat asses sitting on the coach to discourage anyone from playing sports IMO.

It isn't about discouraging participation at all.

 

The real question to be answered is: why differentiate at all with regard to gender?  If it doesn't matter, then put em all in the same teams and go Starship Troopers locker room scene.  Sounds great, eh?  No girls softball, no girls tees in golf.   No girls basketball.  No girls track.  Volleyball is co-ed, and let's go ahead and have co-ed wrestling.

Have fun keeping girls interested in sports...

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Dahobbs

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12 hours ago, sheeeit said:

I agree that this is a tough issue and states are really over reacting. It is brutal enough being trans And we should all be mindful of making their lives easier not harder.
 

I also can see the argument purely from a girl athletes perspective.   No amount of training and hard work and dedication can overcome the inherent physical advantages a trans woman has.   The science on this is still rather new but, at least preliminarily, the studies show that trans Women on average are taller and have much more muscle mass than cis women. Much of the solution, like that of the NCAA, is to allow trans women to participate after a year of testosterone suppression therapy. The problem with this, again at least preliminarily, is that the science says that even with testosterone suppression, trans women have a physical advantage over cis women.  The thing that we don’t know at this point is how big is the advantage.
 

I have seen a lot of people here making an argument that more people playing sports is better and I agree.  The thing that I have trouble agreeing on is why is it so important for a trans woman to compete against other women as opposed to competing against men? Is it a potential bullying situation that people are worried about?  Because if it is just a spirit of competition argument then I see no difference in a trans woman finishing ninth in the men’s division versus first in the women’s.

And these issues can be handled by the governing bodies of the sport just like everything else. They don't need to be legislated by people doing nothing but trying to score cheap political points by being cruel. 

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TwiceHorn

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20 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

And these issues can be handled by the governing bodies of the sport just like everything else. They don't need to be legislated by people doing nothing but trying to score cheap political points by being cruel. 

That's what it's come down to for me.  Only if those bodies fail somehow should there be a legislative intervention. 

Seems to me there's a long way to go before this issue reaches any kind of steady state so we even know whether it's much of a problem or not.

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Sawbonz

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The problem is the government can’t make everything perfect for every individual. I do feel bad for the girls HS track athletes that lost to the trans girls. Testosterone is a hell of an advantage and unless you chemically suppress it prior to puberty there will be lasting effects that later suppression won’t negate. Going forward though most of these children will be going through puberty as their correct gender so the problem, which is very small now, should go away completely 

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fuggled

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15 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Testosterone is a hell of an advantage and unless you chemically suppress it prior to puberty there will be lasting effects that later suppression won’t negate. Going forward though most of these children will be going through puberty as their correct gender so the problem, which is very small now, should go away completely 

Not if states like Arkansas get their way and restrict gender affirming healthcare for trans children.  NPR covered this in a lot of depth yesterday https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/gender-affirming-healthcare/.  Puberty blockers would delay puberty so that families have time to make an informed decision before the child gets hit with hormones that drive permanent physiological changes.  These blockers aren't permanent and they're not hormone treatments.  But they are banned under the Arkansas law.  It just shows how uninformed and misguided some of these attempts at legislating really are.

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Brisketexan

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29 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

9FA06DC7-D093-4684-ADB4-F7E93EA4C09E.png

Counterpoint: you have an entire political party where the only currency is "how big of a flaming dick can I be to the weak/vulnerable?"  That currency talks.  Everything else walks.  Summary: fuck the vulnerable, weak, and marginalized -- they should just choose to stop being vulnerable, weak, and marginalized!  AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!  Eagleflagfreedomgun!

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Guest Lobo

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The Uncle Rico spinoff series sounds very politically charged, but also not very funny.

"Man, if not for those trans-athletes...we'd have been state champions.  No doubt, no doubt in my mind."  

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Horn Dog

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This is a very tough issue, and one that I continue to struggle with.  I am supportive of people being whoever they want to be,  and leaving people the fuck alone with their personal business.  I am also very aware of mental health issues of trans/gay children and extremely sympathetic to their plight.  I also have multiple daughters, one of which is a D1 athlete and a couple of others that want to be college athletes shortly.   I understand the argument that we are dealing with very small numbers of female trans athletes right now, but I also know that these athletes are being actively recruited by my daughters coach and other coaches in their conference.  I have been to her college events, and have seen several trans athletes in various competitions.  They stand out with respect to their physical superiority.    Those who have undergone male puberty have an undeniable physical advantage.   That is just a fact.  Male puberty gives you height, strength and speed and does not go away simply cause your testosterone levels are suppressed for a year or 2.   People are willing to do a lot for a college spot at a prestigious university and to play college athletics.  Coaches will do whatever it takes to win and to keep their jobs and get bigger, higher paying jobs.   This means recruiting superior athletes. So while the numbers are low now, those numbers will grow, and cis females will be pushed out of college sports.  We can not pretend that this won't happen.

Trans athletes need support, and a venue to compete athletically.   Cis females also need to have a venue where they can compete on a level playing field.  I agree that lawmakers probably should stay out of this, but this urgently needs to be addressed by the sports federations, which to this point they seem hesitant to do for the most part.   Different classifications based on updated understanding of gender/sex/inherent physical development is probably a large part of the answer, but good luck achieving consensus on that.  

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Bama Chick

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How many male athletes do people really think are going to go through the very thorough and invasive rigamarole - not to mention the multiple medical exams and psychological evaluations - just to win the Wisconsin High School 100 Meter State Championship????

Y’all act like a dude who’s been in athletic competitions as a male all through middle and high school decides he’s tired of not winning can just up and declare himself a female his senior year and show up in a dress or something at a meet and welp, he’s a woman now so……..

giphy.gif

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