Things not going well for trans athlete bills (except in SEC/third world states)

[WBT 20422]

It only takes one to dominate the field and leave everyone else competing for 2nd place. 

And I don't think anyone is saying anyone's motivation for transitioning is athletic success. 

[High Plains Drifter 10978]

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

From Erica Sullivan who finished third to Lia Thomas in the 500 free at the NCAA National Champs...

https://www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192

 

Many of those who oppose transgender athletes like Lia being able to participate in sports claim to be "protecting women's sports." As a woman in sports, I can tell you that I know what the real threats to women's sports are: sexual abuse and harassment, unequal pay and resources and a lack of women in leadership.

 

 

[StruggleBus 3922]

2 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Many of those who oppose transgender athletes like Lia being able to participate in sports claim to be "protecting women's sports." As a woman in sports, I can tell you that I know what the real threats to women's sports are: sexual abuse and harassment, unequal pay and resources and a lack of women in leadership.

 

 

[Serak The Preparer 3424]

1 hour ago, Horn Dog said:

I have been to her college events, and have seen several trans athletes in various competitions.  They stand out with respect to their physical superiority.    Those who have undergone male puberty have an undeniable physical advantage. 

I do not have kids in college so I don't know what the athletic scene is like. As such I am 100% not trying to call you out on this, but how do you know they are trans athletes? I imagine there is not an asterisk in the program guide. Is it the sheer size that leads you to believe this, or just open word of mouth? Or is there explicit labelling somewhere?

I ask because I do think the magnitude of the issue should inform the response. Again I know very little about this first-hand. My baseline hypothesis is similar to @Bama Chick's - that there there are very few individuals that undergo this process and then continue in women's NCAA sports but totally concede that it is not backed by anything.

[safe sex 11684]

42 minutes ago, WBT said:

It only takes one to dominate the field and leave everyone else competing for 2nd place. 

And I don't think anyone is saying anyone's motivation for transitioning is athletic success. 

Lia Thomas is hardly dominating. Michael Phelps when he was competing, on the other hand...

Oh but his inherent biological advantages, none of which were diminished by at least a year of hormone therapy, aren't an issue? 

Edited March 23, 2022 by trauma babe
Clarity and specificity

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2059]

30 minutes ago, WBT said:

It only takes one to dominate the field and leave everyone else competing for 2nd place. 

And I don't think anyone is saying anyone's motivation for transitioning is athletic success. 

that's why utah's prior version is superior.  they had agreed on a commission to decide one-offs.  if shaq grabbed a wig, sorry, you're not allowed, because it's pretty obviously going to adversely affect the sport more than it adversely affects you.  if david spade wanted to, hey man, you go ahead.

[David Dennison 18661]

41 minutes ago, WBT said:

It only takes one to dominate the field and leave everyone else competing for 2nd place. 

And I don't think anyone is saying anyone's motivation for transitioning is athletic success. 

So I guess the obvious answer is to further alienate trans athletes because how dare they win a few athletic competitions.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20345]

[Mango4 189]

1 hour ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

that's why utah's prior version is superior.  they had agreed on a commission to decide one-offs.  if shaq grabbed a wig, sorry, you're not allowed, because it's pretty obviously going to adversely affect the sport more than it adversely affects you.  if david spade wanted to, hey man, you go ahead.

That's how it was in South Dakota as well until, well, Kristi Noem. 

[Horn Dog 9674]

1 hour ago, Serak The Preparer said:

I do not have kids in college so I don't know what the athletic scene is like. As such I am 100% not trying to call you out on this, but how do you know they are trans athletes? I imagine there is not an asterisk in the program guide. Is it the sheer size that leads you to believe this, or just open word of mouth? Or is there explicit labelling somewhere?

I ask because I do think the magnitude of the issue should inform the response. Again I know very little about this first-hand. My baseline hypothesis is similar to @Bama Chick's - that there there are very few individuals that undergo this process and then continue in women's NCAA sports but totally concede that it is not backed by anything.

I know because some a couple are my daughter's teammates and are very open about it.  Also, since they repeatedly compete against the same athletes from regional schools, they are all perfectly aware of who and who isn't in this category.   There are not a lot of them, but the athletes  all know who they are.   

And yes I understand we are dealing with very small numbers right now.  However it is naïve to think it will stay that way if the advantage is significant.  

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

21 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

I know because some a couple are my daughter's teammates and are very open about it.  Also, since they repeatedly compete against the same athletes from regional schools, they are all perfectly aware of who and who isn't in this category.   There are not a lot of them, but the athletes  all know who they are.   

And yes I understand we are dealing with very small numbers right now.  However it is naïve to think it will stay that way if the advantage is significant.  

no one is changing their gender to fucking compete in sports. you don't seriously believe that, do you?

[elfenix 34171]

2 hours ago, WBT said:

And I don't think anyone is saying anyone's motivation for transitioning is athletic success. 

don't even have to go looking for it

33 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

I know because some a couple are my daughter's teammates and are very open about it.  Also, since they repeatedly compete against the same athletes from regional schools, they are all perfectly aware of who and who isn't in this category.   There are not a lot of them, but the athletes  all know who they are.   

And yes I understand we are dealing with very small numbers right now.  However it is naïve to think it will stay that way if the advantage is significant.  

 

[TurkeyChew 383]

The other thread that was locked had a rational discussion before it went off the rails, but what reasonable minds from all walks and spectrums landed on was, there are no easy or obvious answers and this is a difficult and sensitive issue and it sucks because no matter what you decide, somebody is going to be upset and it will be unfair to.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

2 hours ago, elfenix said:

don't even have to go looking for it

 

Assumed he was referring to active recruitment by the schools woman’s athletic programs. 
 

Similar to Tennis where the amateur rules overseas are different and colleges can find foreigners with pro/semi pro experience leading them to seek out these players. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by ChickenSandwich

[Captainant 27466]

2 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

The other thread that was locked had a rational discussion before it went off the rails, but what reasonable minds from all walks and spectrums landed on was, there are no easy or obvious answers and this is a difficult and sensitive issue and it sucks because no matter what you decide, somebody is going to be upset and it will be unfair to.

It was going well before sack and billygoat and chickensandwich decided to use the thread for all their trans jokes and victim complexes over people disagreeing with them (which nobody was in that thread about this issue). Crying about a "woke lynch mob" in the context of getting called out for being a prick about a sensitive subject is some top-tier bitchassedness.

 

I honestly don't know who on Surly disagrees with the framing of the inherent inequity of Lia Thomas competing as a woman a season after living and competing and training as a biological male. And yet, that thread became unreasonable from folks on the right acting as if there was a "woke lynch mob" shouting down every other opinion. It's not that it's a sensitive issue that prevents discussion, it's you and yours being incapable of discussing real actual facts instead of the hypothetical you've built up in your head.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

It was going well before sack and billygoat and chickensandwich decided to use the thread for all their trans jokes and victim complexes over people disagreeing with them (which nobody was in that thread about this issue). Crying about a "woke lynch mob" in the context of getting called out for being a prick about a sensitive subject is some top-tier bitchassedness.

 

I honestly don't know who on Surly disagrees with the framing of the inherent inequity of Lia Thomas competing as a woman a season after living and competing and training as a biological male. 

Do you ever get tired of lying and then claiming to be a victim?  Links to my trans jokes?  The truth never stopped you before  

Agree with the second part. 
 

 

[TurkeyChew 383]

6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

It was going well before sack and billygoat and chickensandwich decided to use the thread for all their trans jokes and victim complexes over people disagreeing with them (which nobody was in that thread about this issue). Crying about a "woke lynch mob" in the context of getting called out for being a prick about a sensitive subject is some top-tier bitchassedness.

 

I honestly don't know who on Surly disagrees with the framing of the inherent inequity of Lia Thomas competing as a woman a season after living and competing and training as a biological male. And yet, that thread became unreasonable from folks on the right acting as if there was a "woke lynch mob" shouting down every other opinion. It's not that it's a sensitive issue that prevents discussion, it's you and yours being incapable of discussing real actual facts instead of the hypothetical you've built up in your head.

I take exception to your calling me out, as I was never anything but respectful and reasonable.

The NCAA clearly needs to say or do something because as you said, everyone agrees there is inherent unfairness in the recent events. But as to what that action is; nobody can articulate a good solution and absolutely some stakeholders are going to end up feeling like they got the unfair, short end of the stick. It’s not a fun dilemma, but it is an interesting one in that regard (the complexity and what successful problem solving will have to look like). Smarter people than you and I are looking at it, I’m sure.

Edited March 23, 2022 by TurkeyChew

[Captainant 27466]

8 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Do you ever get tired of lying and then claiming to be a victim?  Links to my trans jokes?  The truth never stopped you before  

Agree with the second part. 
 

mea culpa, I just re-scanned the thread and you didn't make any jokes but did rep a few /shrug. My apologies to besmirch your honor and lump you in with the people you appear to agree with. I do actually give a shit about being truthful, but I'm only human though and have been known to make mistakes.

8 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

I take exception to your calling me out, as I was never anything but respectful and reasonable.

The NCAA clearly needs to say or do something because as you said, everyone agrees there is inherent unfairness in the recent events. But as to what that action is; nobody can articulate a good solution and absolutely some stakeholders are going to end up feeling like they got the unfair, short end of the stick. It’s not a fun dilemma, but it is an interesting one in that regards (the complexity and what successful problem solving will have to look like). Smarter people than you and I are looking at it, I’m sure.

And it's not that I'm saying that YOU were making those jokes, however YOU and right wing people do have a tendency to discuss hypotheticals as the basis of your argument rather than reality. For example: in today's Supreme Court nomination hearings, your man Hidin' Ted Cruz was asking Judge Jackson if he could change his gender or race back and forth to manipulate statutory protections, and using that questioning to attack her methodology of finding standing. Just like how sack and others have implied the argument of "well if someone wants to win, they'll just get a sex change!".

It completely discounts the reality of the struggle that those individuals are going through, and completely obliterates any possibility of reasonable dialogue. One side of the discussion just isn't operating in the reality we exist in.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Captainant

[David Dennison 18661]

11 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

I take exception to your calling me out, as I was never anything but respectful and reasonable.

The NCAA clearly needs to say or do something because as you said, everyone agrees there is inherent unfairness in the recent events. But as to what that action is; nobody can articulate a good solution and absolutely some stakeholders are going to end up feeling like they got the unfair, short end of the stick. It’s not a fun dilemma, but it is an interesting one in that regard (the complexity and what successful problem solving will have to look like). Smarter people than you and I are looking at it, I’m sure.

Not true.

[TurkeyChew 383]

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Not true.

But I think it is; at least based on that other thread where it was asked and answered and everyone went on record with saying it was unfair, including troph. I think it would actually be productive and beneficial to hear an argument for why it's not unfair and hear that position and that case. Maybe it's a persuasive argument, but I have my doubts as even the most liberal and emotionally-attached to this issue have (at times, begrudgingly) agreed it's unfair.

Do you have such an argument to offer, since you said "not true" or are you just assuming there is disagreement?

[TurkeyChew 383]

17 minutes ago, Captainant said:

mea culpa, I just re-scanned the thread and you didn't make any jokes but did rep a few /shrug. My apologies to besmirch your honor and lump you in with the people you appear to agree with. I do actually give a shit about being truthful, but I'm only human though and have been known to make mistakes.

And it's not that I'm saying that YOU were making those jokes, however YOU and right wing people do have a tendency to discuss hypotheticals as the basis of your argument rather than reality. For example: in today's Supreme Court nomination hearings, your man Hidin' Ted Cruz was asking Judge Jackson if he could change his gender or race back and forth to manipulate statutory protections, and using that questioning to attack her methodology of finding standing. Just like how sack and others have implied the argument of "well if someone wants to win, they'll just get a sex change!".

It completely discounts the reality of the struggle that those individuals are going through, and completely obliterates any possibility of reasonable dialogue. One side of the discussion just isn't operating in the reality we exist in.

Okay, got it.

I think most people are scenario-based when thinking through use cases and applications of things (cause and effect).

I agree that speaking in such extremes as Ted Cruz did isn't reasonable today. 

I can also see the faint possibility of a world far away where, if the benefits and gains are good enough, where there would exist a moral hazard to "transition genders" nominally for material gain because at the end of the day, people are people. Which is to say, selfish, brutish, wicked and prone to doing dastardly things.

But to bring that up today as a realistic issue or problem is clearly not good faith; I think we all agree there.

[F250 28691]

7 hours ago, Horn Dog said:

This is a very tough issue, and one that I continue to struggle with.  I am supportive of people being whoever they want to be,  and leaving people the fuck alone with their personal business.  I am also very aware of mental health issues of trans/gay children and extremely sympathetic to their plight.  I also have multiple daughters, one of which is a D1 athlete and a couple of others that want to be college athletes shortly.   I understand the argument that we are dealing with very small numbers of female trans athletes right now, but I also know that these athletes are being actively recruited by my daughters coach and other coaches in their conference.  I have been to her college events, and have seen several trans athletes in various competitions.  They stand out with respect to their physical superiority.    Those who have undergone male puberty have an undeniable physical advantage.   That is just a fact.  Male puberty gives you height, strength and speed and does not go away simply cause your testosterone levels are suppressed for a year or 2.   People are willing to do a lot for a college spot at a prestigious university and to play college athletics.  Coaches will do whatever it takes to win and to keep their jobs and get bigger, higher paying jobs.   This means recruiting superior athletes. So while the numbers are low now, those numbers will grow, and cis females will be pushed out of college sports.  We can not pretend that this won't happen.

Trans athletes need support, and a venue to compete athletically.   Cis females also need to have a venue where they can compete on a level playing field.  I agree that lawmakers probably should stay out of this, but this urgently needs to be addressed by the sports federations, which to this point they seem hesitant to do for the most part.   Different classifications based on updated understanding of gender/sex/inherent physical development is probably a large part of the answer, but good luck achieving consensus on that.  

Good post. I've had a kid go through the college recruitment process for baseball and it is an intensive process. A very crazy competitive world without any assurances.

I also agree that the government should not be involved but the governing bodies do need to come up with a solution. The issue can be resolved without government interference and the issue should definitely Not be ignored as if it's a non-issue because eventually the government will get involved.

 

[safe sex 11684]

There will never come a point in any of our lives where it will be worth it to "nominally transition" your gender.

[Guest Lobo]

What about for like a fun 3-day weekend in Laos?  And then straight back to work on Monday? 

[Bama Chick 28596]

It never ceases to amaze me the way people with below average intelligence feel the need to spout off their “expertise” on every subject despite not knowing shit about fuck.

Every mediocre American fucktoe is an epidemiologist or military strategist or constitutional law expert or historian or a Black person or a woman or an astronaut whenever they need to present their “gut feelings” as factual “concerns”.

JUST SHUT UP AND LET THE REAL EXPERTS BE EXPERTS.

Stick to spewing with authority on shit you’re actually knowledgeable about - the shitshow that is UT football, breakfast tacos, jacking off, and John Hughes movies.

FUCK

[Guest Lobo]

Why you gotta drag John Hughes into this?  

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11668]

We need to hear from the following classes of experts, imo:

epidemiologists,

military strategists,

constitutional law experts,

historians,

black people,

women.  

[TurkeyChew 383]

Also David D the expert; I’d like to hear him say more than 3 words and then not defending his position on anything. 

[Underdog 28457]

Oh hell yeah, BC is fired up.  Time to get ready... 

 

 

[David Dennison 18661]

2 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

But I think it is; at least based on that other thread where it was asked and answered and everyone went on record with saying it was unfair, including troph. I think it would actually be productive and beneficial to hear an argument for why it's not unfair and hear that position and that case. Maybe it's a persuasive argument, but I have my doubts as even the most liberal and emotionally-attached to this issue have (at times, begrudgingly) agreed it's unfair.

Do you have such an argument to offer, since you said "not true" or are you just assuming there is disagreement?

I'm pretty sure that not everyone thinks it is inherently unfair to let trans women compete in womens' sporting events. I don't.

 

[TurkeyChew 383]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

I'm pretty sure that not everyone thinks it is inherently unfair to let trans women compete in womens' sporting events. I don't.

 

Talking specifically about Lia and the specific circumstances of the last week or so. Everyone seems to agree her competing given the context and circumstances (including troph) is unfair to the other women. Do you disagree?

Edited March 24, 2022 by TurkeyChew

[David Dennison 18661]

29 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

Talking specifically about Lia and the specific circumstances of the last week or so. Everyone seems to agree her competing given the context and circumstances (including troph) is unfair to the other women. Do you disagree?

Yes. She's been on hormone replacement therapy for nearly three years. Her times are in line with cis women and are not record breaking. If her testosterone levels are within the parameters established by the NCAA, I have no problem with her competing in womens' events.

[TurkeyChew 383]

45 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Yes. She's been on hormone replacement therapy for nearly three years. Her times are in line with cis women and are not record breaking. If her testosterone levels are within the parameters established by the NCAA, I have no problem with her competing in womens' events.

Thanks for answering. You are the one person who has said it's fair for Lia to race against bio women recently.

[Bullneck 18987]

On 4/23/2021 at 9:34 AM, MoJames said:

Here is the cyclist one I ran across.

https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a25736012/transgender-world-champion-track-cycling-race/

 

On 3/22/2022 at 7:08 PM, HenryJames said:

Utah’s Republican governor.

Belongs in the Holy Shit thread.  I can barely wrap my mind around what I just read.  Cox seems like a reasonable and decent man.

[Guest Lobo]

So the Utah electorate is mainly worried, not so much about sports, but about Brother-Wives?  

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

9 hours ago, Horn Dog said:

And yes I understand we are dealing with very small numbers right now.  However it is naïve to think it will stay that way if the advantage is significant.  

I disagree. It will always be a tiny minority. Nobody is turning trans just so they can excel at sports. I don’t know what it’s like to deal with conflicts of sexual identity. I’m not in a position to judge so I’m not going to judge. There but for providence go I. But I believe people who have to deal with difficult choices about sexual identity, about who and what they are, aren’t doing it for expediency. Those are hard decisions and I feel for them.

And fucking assholes like Ted Cruz who suggest that a person might claim he’s a woman at one moment and then a man at the next, or an Hispanic at one moment and then an Asian the next, just don’t get it and are putting their ignorance on display. Nobody does that. Our basic instinct is to be like everyone else and it’s a huge challenge to recognize that you’re different. It’s not something anyone takes lightly, especially when recognizing that you’re different invites a lot of abuse. 

[F250 28691]

15 minutes ago, Lobo said:

So the Utah electorate is mainly worried, not so much about sports, but about Brother-Wives?  

The loudest voices complaining are simply opposed to the social acceptance of transgender people. They also get out the vote which is why I think it's important for this to be handled by the governing sports authorities privately.