Carville: Democrats have a wokeness problem

[bad_teammate 13132]

Democratic wokeness

 

[Gil Bang 25898]

3 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

THE Problem the democrats have  they want to  fundamentally  alter the political process, and mechanisms that we've lived under.  They want  more govt , and more govt largess, and have no understanding of the costs associated with either of those.

what a crock of shit

[TwiceHorn 31283]

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Democratic wokeness

 

Well, Carville's thoughts make perfect sense when you consider that he was the main political consultant to the most Republican Democrat ever to hold the office of President.

[washparkhorn 9935]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Democratic wokeness

 

Uncomfortable truth about that crowd. But there has been improvement - however incremental - in that they do not reflexively shit on economic progress all the time now - thanks to Biden's move from the right to the center. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, washparkhorn said:

Uncomfortable truth about that crowd. But there has been improvement - however incremental - in that they do not reflexively shit on economic progress all the time now - thanks to Biden's move from the right to the center. 

getting teabagged by Donald Trump helped reveal the vapidity of Clintonism

[Tuco 5076]

2 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Uncomfortable truth about that crowd. But there has been improvement - however incremental - in that they do not reflexively shit on economic progress all the time now - thanks to Biden's move from the right to the center. 

What's uncomfortable about it?  Clinton was saying that economic reform is not the only progressive issue.  The ellipsis part is where she stated she would consider breaking up the big banks if warranted, but the point was that there are other progressive issues where she had a stronger resume than Bernie for progressives. You know, all those irrelevant "woke" issues that Berniebros are continuing to shit on. 

[Goredho 17349]

3 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

THE Problem the democrats have  they want to  fundamentally  alter the political process, and mechanisms that we've lived under.  They want  more govt , and more govt largess, and have no understanding of the costs associated with either of those.

Please elaborate.  What political process are they altering?  What has it always been and what are they altering it to?  I’m legitimately curious as to what you are specifically alluding to.

[washparkhorn 9935]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

getting teabagged by Donald Trump helped reveal the vapidity of Clintonism

Damn shame it took that message to wake center-right Dems up from their slumber. But I am thrilled they have and embrace their journey back to the economic reality of this nation.

2 minutes ago, Tuco said:

What's uncomfortable about it?  

Swallowing regressive and flawed economic policy invented by libertarian economists hook, line, and sinker.

[Satchel 6908]

4 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Wokeness is a problem, sure, but Carville lumps economic equality into that along with rightly mocking dumb crap like "Latinx". Bundling a mandatory living wage in with woke culture is a great Republican tactic.

Republicans are peerless when it comes to messaging. They are the only ones capable of negatively appropriating wokeness, diversity, multiculturalism and BLM. It’s fascinating.

[washparkhorn 9935]

2 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Republicans are peerless when it comes to messaging. They are the only ones capable of negatively appropriating wokeness, diversity, multiculturalism and BLM. It’s fascinating.

Agree.

The white grievance that fills so many is based on white wokeness ("red-pilling" in rightist circles) - a form of identity politics they decry so fervently.  

[Hank Kingsley 20707]

16 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Republicans are peerless when it comes to messaging. They are the only ones capable of negatively appropriating wokeness, diversity, multiculturalism and BLM. It’s fascinating.

When the entire party and its constituents' messaging is disingenuous bullshit, it's easier to get everyone on board. 

 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

14 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Agree.

The white grievance that fills so many is based on white wokeness ("red-pilling" in rightist circles) - a form of identity politics they decry so fervently.  

Reposted louder for you and those in the back: 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[hobbes2702 12846]

4 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

THE Problem the democrats have  they want to  fundamentally  alter the political process, and mechanisms that we've lived under.  They want  more govt , and more govt largess, and have no understanding of the costs associated with either of those.

Why don’t you post some specifics rather than vague bullshit? Or this gonna be another time where you post something, can’t back it up, and then disappear to your safe space for 3 months?

[lmao 178]

4 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

I don't think most people can define woke/identity politics - or comprehend where it may fall on a political spectrum. Carville is attempting to obfuscate the concept. 

In the center, Hillary was a woke candidate. Warren and Harris were woke candidates. The moneyed woke supported Biden.  

On the right - white identity movements (woke/red pill) dominated the Republican Party.

 

 

[Brisketexan 104628]

4 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

THE Problem the democrats have  they want to  fundamentally  alter the political process, and mechanisms that we've lived under.  They want  more govt , and more govt largess, and have no understanding of the costs associated with either of those.

Holy shit, what an embarrassing take.....promptly addressed by the posts below.

4 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

You are out of your league in this discussion. No offense intended.

FDR economic policy is Center-Left today (mainstream when he was in office).  It is not a woke issue.

 

4 hours ago, Walden Ponderer said:

By completely missing his point, you a) proved his point, and b) provided pretty much the only data point in Carville's favor in this argument. The reason you're not in the club, though, is not that anyone was trying to exclude you, only that you posted outlandishly false premises, which anyone who has studied American history objectively knows to be incorrect, to arrive at a fantastically wrong conclusion.

In terms of "fundamentally altering the process, and the mechanisms we've lived under," how about this -- how about ZERO alteration of things like taxes and public university tuition....as they existed in the 1950s to early 1970s?  We had higher taxes, we had more public works projects, we had dramatically lower college tuition.  Oh, and our publicly traded corporations weren't slaves to the quarterly report, and could invest in long-term growth and strength.  How about we just go BACK to what we had?  

When you realize that a shitload of "progressive" ideas are not much more than "how about we unfuck a bunch of that shit we fucked up?"....you will realize that the Dem approach is a shitload closer to the mainstream "process and mechanisms" that you think of when you think of your idealized America.

[wildcat09 29257]

4 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

THE Problem the democrats have  they want to  fundamentally  alter the political process, and mechanisms that we've lived under.  They want  more govt , and more govt largess, and have no understanding of the costs associated with either of those.

The GOP actually is fundamentally altering the political process in a number of states, right now, to take elections out of the hands of American citizens. You fucking rube.

[Homercles 10205]

Well i see the talking points dropped recently, seen twice today by two different posters how Dems are trying to undermine democracy...I guess via DC/PR, filibuster, etc. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

 

[horn4life 3755]

Quote

f Democrats want power, they have to win in a country where 18 percent of the population controls 52 percent of the Senate seats. That’s a fact. That’s not changing. That’s what this whole damn thing is about.

What Carville means is we need to tailor the MESSAGE to the more rural white population that control such a large part of the Senate.  IF you want to win with the deck stacked against you.  The Senate used to be a deliberative body. McConnell destroyed that.  

Carville assertion also shows exactly why the GOP is so fucking afraid of people voting.  More voters means control by a small minority of white rural folks of the Senate becomes more difficult when more folks vote.

I don't think you can say Carville's wrong.  And to a lot of that 18% Carville is talking about, black people in the neighborhood is something to be very, very, very afraid of.  So how do you bridge this gap?  I don't think you can dumb the message down enough.  I think you need to overwhelm with constantly working very, very hard to expand the electorate.  Dilute that 18%'s influence over time.  Or maybe start having black cops blow away a lot of rural white kids on back roads in the heartland?

[wildcat09 29257]

The senate was never actually a deliberative body. It's just a body that likes to lie about how great it is a lot.

[bad_teammate 13132]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The senate was never actually a deliberative body. It's just a body that likes to lie about how great it is a lot.

me and the boys deliberating about how good our farts smell

[hobbes2702 12846]

We should abolish the senate 

[Brisketexan 104628]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The senate was never actually a deliberative body. It's just a body that likes to lie about how great it is a lot.

This.  The perfect encapsulation of how worthless a body it is was David Dewhurst's lackluster campaign for the seat (he lost to Cruz).  It became apparent that the only reason he ran for the seat was to that he could change his name.  As in, instead of "your table is right this way, Mr.  Dewhurst," it would be "your table is right this way, Senator."  That was it.  That was the sum total of the reason he had for running -- so he could give his name as "Senator Dewhurst" when making dinner reservations and whatnot.

A more worthless political body is hard to imagine.  And I live in a world where Texas A&M has a Board of Regents.

[Brisketexan 104628]

Oh, and also, if you actually look at what Carville is saying, he's not entirely wrong.  Messaging is reality.  And the GQP is better at messaging -- even if it's a batshit lie, they're good at beating it into your skull.  The messaging from the left unwittingly lends itself to easy bad characterizations by the GQP.  We need to stop giving them easy fastballs on the outside of the plate that they can smash into next week.  I agree.  I don't disagree with most of the principles behind being "woke," but the messaging creates unnecessary vulnerabilities.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

A fair number of people I know constantly complain about political correctness or woke culture. I always push back and ask them how it impacts them. Usually it's just because it annoys them. If I'm in a mood to argue, I ask them if they wondered if some people were annoyed in Jim Crow (or after) about discrimination. Or people that had to live in the closet because they risked their job and family relationships. Should we go back to the good ol' days when people knew their place?

Another example is when you see people online or filmed arguing BLM vs All Lives Matter. It's 2 people that want to be outraged at someone. The opinion of the other person shouldn't matter to you, and conversely most people don't want to hear yours.

[Asithappens 974]

Thanks for posting this. I first saw this on Jerry Coyne's blog. 

Carville is right. Look, it's a political party not a religion. Get the "true believers" the fuck outta here. 

The fringe/progressive side of the Dems is poison to a lot of blue collar America, and I'm not a big fan of them, either. Latinx? Defund the popo? WTF is that? Just. Fucking. Morons. Imo. 

Thank god it looks like we have an adult back in the WH. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, Asithappens said:

The fringe/progressive side of the Dems is poison to a lot of blue collar America, and I'm not a big fan of them, either. Latinx? Defund the popo? WTF is that? Just. Fucking. Morons. Imo. 

It's not the job of the voting bases to win votes, it's the job of the politicians. If the coastal voters want to prioritize their woke stuff then that's their right. The problem is the party and politicians, not its constituencies.

[wildcat09 29257]

Yeah, most of the "woke" shit people complain about is never actually said by Democratic politicians. 

[Tuco 5076]

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It's not the job of the voting bases to win votes, it's the job of the politicians. If the coastal voters want to prioritize their woke stuff then that's their right. The problem is the party and politicians, not its constituencies.

"coastal elites"  Yep, GOP messaging works pretty well. 

 

[elfenix 34171]

3 minutes ago, Tuco said:

"coastal elites"  Yep, GOP messaging works pretty well. 

 

complains about coastal elites and hollywood, elects actor, yalie, yalie, and billionaire game show host wharton grad to the presidency. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

4 minutes ago, Tuco said:

"coastal elites"  Yep, GOP messaging works pretty well. 

What would you call a class of people who live on the coast, create/control culture, make a ton of money, and work explicitly and openly for the interests of the Top 0.1%?

The coastal elites absolutely exist. The GOP isn't wrong about that.

[Tuco 5076]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Yeah, most of the "woke" shit people complain about is never actually said by Democratic politicians. 

People like to bust on "defund the police" as some messaging train wreck.  Put here's the thing: activists said "reallocate funds towards community services" for years, but nobody gave a shit.  Eventually, they cast it in dramatic terms, and people paid attention to it.  It's now a discussion, and that discussion has turned into action in some locations.  Activists aren't trying to win elections, they are trying to generate action.  That may be a major pain in the ass for many of the Dem politicians who are generally on their side, but it drives change.  Nothing will fucking change if you are unwilling to stake out an unpopular opinion and challenge perceptions.  And politicians can't do that and still win.  

[Tuco 5076]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What would you call a class of people who live on the coast, create/control culture, make a ton of money, and work explicitly and openly for the interests of the Top 0.1%?

The coastal elites absolutely exist. The GOP isn't wrong about that.

For the most part, I call them Republicans.  

This idea that the fucking Rockerfellers are driving BLM or Latinx is beyond idiotic. 

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

BLM isn't coastal at all. That's a weird one.

"Latinx" is a good example, actually, because that's entirely a creation of the highest reaches of academia and then media picking up on it. 

[Hank Kingsley 20707]

16 minutes ago, Tuco said:

People like to bust on "defund the police" as some messaging train wreck.  Put here's the thing: activists said "reallocate funds towards community services" for years, but nobody gave a shit.  Eventually, they cast it in dramatic terms, and people paid attention to it.  It's now a discussion, and that discussion has turned into action in some locations.  Activists aren't trying to win elections, they are trying to generate action.  That may be a major pain in the ass for many of the Dem politicians who are generally on their side, but it drives change.  Nothing will fucking change if you are unwilling to stake out an unpopular opinion and challenge perceptions.  And politicians can't do that and still win.  

I mean, "reform the police" is clearly easier to digest. 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Hank Kingsley

[elfenix 34171]

6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

BLM isn't coastal at all. That's a weird one.

"Latinx" is a good example, actually, because that's entirely a creation of the highest reaches of academia and then media picking up on it. 

every time some serious person uses the term "latinx," a latino pulls the lever for the republican

 

 

  

2 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

I mean, "reform the police" is clearly easier to digest. 

 

 

and hasn't accomplished shit in 30 years.

Edited April 29, 2021 by elfenix

[Js1 85110]

2 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

I mean, "reform the police" is clearly easier to digest. 

 

All about marketing. 

[Satchel 6908]

People in Mesquite can get with refunding the police. 

[Hank Kingsley 20707]

3 minutes ago, elfenix said:

and hasn't accomplished shit in 30 years.

True, but "reform the police" has never been an actual slogan. With cell phone captures, the world is now seeing a lot of the police bullshit they rarely saw even a decade ago. People now understand it's a big problem, but many are going to simply balk when using the word "defund". It's a non-starter. 

Progressive activism is great and productive.  But politicians have to be smarter about how they phrase things. We live in a world where Republicans call Biden a "leftist" and leftists call Biden a "Republican". It's all so fucking stupid and a recipe for a stalemate. 

I wish more leftists would change their strategy and embrace Biden's progressive rhetoric. 

 

[Hank Kingsley 20707]

I will say it's the dumbest shit in the world that Biden gets heartburn over the legalization of marijuana. That is an uncontested slam dunk win for him and the Democrats that HAS to be delivered. 

 

[Tuco 5076]

19 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

BLM isn't coastal at all. That's a weird one.

"Latinx" is a good example, actually, because that's entirely a creation of the highest reaches of academia and then media picking up on it. 

First of all, the "highest reaches of academia" are not in the top 0.1% of the wealthiest people in the country.  You pivoted from making "coastal elites" about economic inequalities to making it about higher education.  GOP messaging is effective.

Secondly, do you really think "Latinx" was conceived at the "highest reaches of academia"?  Are you thinking that some university president just made that shit up?  I could certainly see it getting birthed at some academic conference on language and feminism.  

I don't really know where it originated.  First place I saw it was in a proposed changes to Dem Party bylaws in Nebraska.  I had not seen in "the media" prior to that

I don't really give a shit about it one way or the other.  When I think about it, I try to use gender neutral terminology like, "actor" instead of "actress", or "server" instead of "waitress."  But I do recognize that is different than creating a new word to push gender neutrality. I also recognize that such efforts do tend to annoy some people - white, black, Latinx, whatever - which costs votes.  But I hate a Roman named Status Quo. 

 

[Tuco 5076]

20 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

True, but "reform the police" has never been an actual slogan. With cell phone captures, the world is now seeing a lot of the police bullshit they rarely saw even a decade ago. People now understand it's a big problem, but many are going to simply balk when using the word "defund". It's a non-starter. 

Progressive activism is great and productive.  But politicians have to be smarter about how they phrase things. We live in a world where Republicans call Biden a "leftist" and leftists call Biden a "Republican". It's all so fucking stupid and a recipe for a stalemate. 

I wish more leftists would change their strategy and embrace Biden's progressive rhetoric. 

 

Reform the police is also pretty nonspecific.  Tell me the version that actually indicates we are pulling money out of police departments and into programs to deal with root causes.  Whether are not you agree with that policy shift, it is fundamentally different policy than the "reform the police."  We've reformed the police many times.  But their scope and budgets continue to grow. 

['stache 21774]

48 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

I mean, "reform the police" is clearly easier to digest. 

 

That's been the lingo for decades, and here we are, nothing has happened. They also called that as hateful towards police, etc., etc. I'm getting sick of people criticizing verbiage, as though rural white conservatives would actually consider policy discussions in an honest and open manner. They have been trained to love librul tears, that is literally the only thing that appeals to them. Stop pretending as though they can be won over. I'm almost certain that the "wokeness/verbiage is a turnoff to centrist voters" just doesn't matter. Any self-proclaimed "centrist" who claims that wokeness or wording is why they voted for trump is just a dumbass right winger who wants to feel smart. They are the same gullible idiots that will never vote d, they just like to sound like it's more than just "librul tears." It's not. That's all they care about.

Edited April 29, 2021 by 'stache

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 hours ago, Satchel said:

Republicans are peerless when it comes to messaging. They are the only ones capable of negatively appropriating wokeness, diversity, multiculturalism and BLM. It’s fascinating.

That’s because they are dog whistling to a bunch of closet white supremacists in total denial who think they aren’t racist because they held the door open for an old black woman last month, don’t say racist jokes in mixed company, like Michael Jordan and agree with uncle Tim Scott’s politics. 

[Satchel 6908]

Republicans clearly understand their own racism. It’s why they’re so predictable when it comes to dealing with race. Drag somebody like Tim, Candace or some new biscuit baker out before the public to declare that racism in America is not the problem; black people are.

[David Dennison 18659]

2 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Republicans clearly understand their own racism. It’s why they’re so predictable when it comes to dealing with race. Drag somebody like Tim, Candace or some new biscuit baker out before the public to declare that racism in America is not the problem; black people are.

The Republican base is receptive to anything that lets white people off the hook for the racism that continues to plague this nation.

[Js1 85110]

12 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Republicans clearly understand their own racism. It’s why they’re so predictable when it comes to dealing with race. Drag somebody like Tim, Candace or some new biscuit baker out before the public to declare that racism in America is not the problem; black people Democrats are.

fify

[JimmyJames 12271]

The way to deal with Republican assholes who hate wokeness, who hate BLM, and who rail against diversity and multiculturalism is to simply ask them why? 

Edited April 29, 2021 by JimmyJames

[JimmyJames 12271]

Eventually you will get the true answer. And they won’t like their answer themselves. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

8 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Wokeness is a problem, sure, but Carville lumps economic equality into that along with rightly mocking dumb crap like "Latinx". Bundling a mandatory living wage in with woke culture is a great Republican tactic.

Not was he was saying in my reading -- he was saying "LatinX" type stuff stops you from having the votes to enable mandatory living wage, etc. Now you may believe, and you may very well be right, that Carville will keep moving the goalposts on when the Dems would finally have the votes to bring in truly progressive economic legislation, but that is not what he said here. 

 

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

A fair number of people I know constantly complain about political correctness or woke culture. I always push back and ask them how it impacts them. Usually it's just because it annoys them. If I'm in a mood to argue, I ask them if they wondered if some people were annoyed in Jim Crow (or after) about discrimination. Or people that had to live in the closet because they risked their job and family relationships. Should we go back to the good ol' days when people knew their place?

 

 

I wish tactics liked that worked but I have come to believe they only make people dig in. Ask any shrink about shaming people or how shamed people act. It is not a productive tactic. 

 

2 hours ago, Asithappens said:

Thanks for posting this. I first saw this on Jerry Coyne's blog. 

Carville is right. Look, it's a political party not a religion. Get the "true believers" the fuck outta here. 

The fringe/progressive side of the Dems is poison to a lot of blue collar America, and I'm not a big fan of them, either. Latinx? Defund the popo? WTF is that? Just. Fucking. Morons. Imo. 

 

Almost all of what the meathead white rural voter brands as "librul" is in fact identity politics jargon and the GOP is beyond adept at portraying the Dems as a faculty lounge party, as Carville put it. Contrary to what we pretty much universally believe, the poor White GOP voter is NOT voting against his self-interests. It's just his self-interests are stupid; he has allowed his sense of inferiority and shame to trade in the possibility of actual material good -- universal healthcare, living wages -- for the cheap thrill of sticking it to a smartypants once every few years. Well, it's a little more sustained a thrill than that; Fox News is continually reminding him of how smart he was to do so. 

 

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

I mean, "reform the police" is clearly easier to digest. 

 

Said it before and I'll say it a thousand times more: "Reimagine Public Safety."

Edited April 29, 2021 by MaybeACoordinator