Carville: Democrats have a wokeness problem

[Gourmand 7774]

 

[Gourmand 7774]

Clymer nailed it perfectly and that piece is worth your time. 

Spoiler

Now, he really may believe that “political correctness” diminishes the effectiveness of the Democratic Party’s national campaign strategy (I wholeheartedly disagree), but I think this has a lot more to do with his personal frustration with the world changing around him and the effort he perceives it takes to keep up with those changes.

He’s not alone in that. Many folks his age (especially of his race and gender) feel the same way. As someone on the older end of the Millennial spectrum, I have witnessed similar frustration with folks older than me with cultural competency that simultaneously seemed obvious to most folks my age.

And yet, I have also been frustrated myself at times with aspects of cultural evolution that didn’t come so easily to me.

I think frustration is a perfectly human response in the learning process, but—if I may be a tad preachy here—that doesn’t absolve us of our responsibility to make the effort to unlearn harmful practices and replace them with helpful ones.

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

For example, the right wing lunatics hate antifa. Which literally means anti fascists. Just ask them since they oppose anti fascists do they support pro fascists? They will of course deny it. But the reality is they do. They need to hear the truth about what they support so tell them they in fact support fascists. They will get indignant and storm off but they need to hear the truth. 

[Bullneck 18987]

7 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

THE Problem the democrats have  they want to  fundamentally  alter the political process, and mechanisms that we've lived under.  They want  more govt , and more govt largess, and have no understanding of the costs associated with either of those.

Yes, we want to fundamentally alter things like the Electoral College and a more balanced Supreme Court (see: Garland, Merrick), and end taxation without representation.

We want everyone to pay their fair share, particularly economic winners.  

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

Seriously who listens to these old white men anymore? I guess other old, white men. I mean really, who gives a shit?

[formermav43 4599]

44 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

Seriously who listens to these old white men anymore? I guess other old, white men. I mean really, who gives a shit?

I could be wrong, but aren’t you an old white man?

[F250 28691]

9 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I want your dreams. I am almost thinking of taking a day trip to Montgomery, Alabama just to take this RDCanecutter to dinner.

@RDCanecutter

Take him to Central it's near the "Riverwalk" in Montgomery. Get the Duck with chorizo and grits. Thank me later.

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

2 hours ago, Tuco said:

First of all, the "highest reaches of academia" are not in the top 0.1% of the wealthiest people in the country.  You pivoted from making "coastal elites" about economic inequalities to making it about higher education.  GOP messaging is effective.

I actually didn't say "coastal elites" until you brought the phrase up. I said "coastal voters" and you translated that to "coastal elites" in order to create a confrontation. Either that or you actually read "coastal elites" because you're locked into some kind of eternal binary partisan struggle and will invent arguments if one doesn't have the decency to pre-exist.

I also included people who "control/create culture", another phrase you ignored in a desire to start a fight.

Academia and media personalities live and work in service of the 0.1%. From the Ivies to the media boardrooms.

Quote

Secondly, do you really think "Latinx" was conceived at the "highest reaches of academia"?  Are you thinking that some university president just made that shit up?  I could certainly see it getting birthed at some academic conference on language and feminism.  

Yeah that was my very obvious point and your desire to create an argument over what "highest reaches of academia" means is idiotic.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

50 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

Seriously who listens to these old white men anymore? I guess other old, white men. I mean really, who gives a shit?

One of Carville's points is that we are stuck with old white men because of the way the Senate is constructed. OWM states like the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana etc give them way more clout than they should have, but we are stuck with it barring the implosion of the Constitution. (Which IMO would be at worst a neutral proposition; we need a new one, badly, but that is another screed.) Just wishing them away does no good. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

2 minutes ago, F250 said:

@RDCanecutter

Take him to Central it's near the "Riverwalk" in Montgomery. Get the Duck with chorizo and grits. Thank me later.

 

I got news for y'all -- RD does not live in Montgomery. If you want to wine and dine the Canecutter, you best study up on Birmingham and Selma, in which case you ought to let his mama pick.

 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

In either case, it would be worth my investment to fly into Alabama, rent a car and treat RD to a meal or 21 in a row.

[Neonmoon 38127]

Old white man blames black people for losing Florida. Cool. Democrats are really good at stepping on each other’s dicks. 

 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

9 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Old white man blames black people for losing Florida. Cool. Democrats are really good at stepping on each other’s dicks. 

 

Except he isn't blaming Black people. 

[Nivek 16860]

1 hour ago, Gourmand said:

Clymer nailed it perfectly and that piece is worth your time. 

  Hide contents

Now, he really may believe that “political correctness” diminishes the effectiveness of the Democratic Party’s national campaign strategy (I wholeheartedly disagree), but I think this has a lot more to do with his personal frustration with the world changing around him and the effort he perceives it takes to keep up with those changes.

He’s not alone in that. Many folks his age (especially of his race and gender) feel the same way. As someone on the older end of the Millennial spectrum, I have witnessed similar frustration with folks older than me with cultural competency that simultaneously seemed obvious to most folks my age.

And yet, I have also been frustrated myself at times with aspects of cultural evolution that didn’t come so easily to me.

I think frustration is a perfectly human response in the learning process, but—if I may be a tad preachy here—that doesn’t absolve us of our responsibility to make the effort to unlearn harmful practices and replace them with helpful ones.

 

Clymer didn't nail shit and did not understand the message.   And that post is full of vitriol which has alienated people, again, assuming he is old and out of touch because he is white.   Carville had multiple excellent observations in that interview that have been echoed on here.  Democratic Party members need to stop being wimps.  They need to brand their message, and they need to repeat it.   There were seemingly 20 investigations into Benghazi orchestrated by the R's and another day at the office for republicans in spite of their support of a failed insurrection.  

They need to appeal to the rubes not on policy but on sex appeal/marketing.   You can talk to some diehard republicans when it comes to policy and they will agree with you.  ACA is popular, but Obama Care is not.  That is masterful marketing by the Republicans.  Their own base likes it, but votes against it because they are irrational beings.  

Carville is saying the messaging needs to become pointed, heated, direct.  With all of the R-linked pedo-culture, we need to not be gym jordans and look away.  We need to remind everyone every single fucking day that R's are kiddy diddlers.   Over 500,000 Americans died on their watch because they were in charge.   Massive debt has been accrued because of their watch.  They have the Mierdas touch.  

I'm Nivek, and I approve this message. 

[Willfully Horn 7915]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Academia and media personalities live and work in service of the 0.1%

Am I supposed to take your word on this? Could you deign to share a little more information in support of your contention?

[Bama Chick 28596]

“Latinx” originated within queer activists groups not academia.

Just like “Black Lives Matter” and “Abolish ICE” and “Defund the Police” did.

And all of those terms can be twisted by bad faith right wingers.

But that’s what happens when you have only two parties and only one of those parties is a “big tent”.

It’s not “woke bullshittery” to allow minority activists to make their voices heard.

All this handwringing over “woke” and “cancel culture” is just the modern moral panic that this country went through in the 90s when it was called “political correctness”.

[Satchel 6908]

When Levar Burton told Megan McCain the “cancel culture” she wines about is actually “consequence culture”, she looked perplexed.

[David Dennison 18659]

Consequence culture is a great retort. 

[Js1 85110]

10 minutes ago, Satchel said:

When Levar Burton told Megan McCain the “cancel culture” she wines about is actually “consequence culture”, she looked perplexed.

That’s bc she’s dumber than a box of rocks and is getting by on her last name and her husband being CEO of The Federalist

[bad_teammate 13132]

42 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Am I supposed to take your word on this? Could you deign to share a little more information in support of your contention?

If you want to believe the coastal media class and the university systems are Fighting The Man then I'll happy leave you to your delusion.

34 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

“Latinx” originated within queer activists groups not academia.

These are not exclusive groups. In fact, that Venn diagram's middle is larger than its sides. 

[Satchel 6908]

Megan whines about cancel culture.

[Willfully Horn 7915]

30 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

If you want to believe the coastal media class and the university systems are Fighting The Man then I'll happy leave you to your delusion.

*happily

My delusion is that people who teach do so for themselves and their students.

You offer me no reason to believe otherwise.

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Willfully Horn
My kid’s go to quote

[F250 28691]

1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

“Latinx” originated within queer activists groups not academia.

Carville's point was that Latino communities don't use the term Latinx and it's dumb to use the term if you are trying to reach those communities. Speak the language that the actual communities use not some small subset that isn't reflective of the community.

 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

59 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Consequence culture is a great retort. 

But is it really? It's just abstracting and saying the same thing. A consequence is just an effect to a cause, and in this case it's specifically being "cancelled". Calling it consequence culture doesn't impart some morality or power that calling it cancel culture does.

To give a hypothetical example for illustration (safe harbor/not based on real life/example only): Celebrity A tweets a political opinion which is unpopular and a brand wants to kowtow to political correctness and so has to project a woke image and acts upon it, thus invoking a consequence. The same thing as cancelling. 

It just seems a semantics argument that doesn't make a different point. Cancel and Consequence is six one way and half a dozen another.

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[David Dennison 18659]

1 minute ago, DonkeyCigars said:

But is it really? It's just abstracting and saying the same thing. A consequence is just an effect to a cause, and in this case it's specifically being "cancelled". Calling it consequence culture doesn't impart some morality or power that calling it cancel culture does.

Celebrity A tweets a political opinion which is unpopular and a brand wants to kowtow to political correctness and so has to project a woke image and acts upon it, thus invoking a consequence. The same thing as cancelling. 

It just seems a semantics argument that doesn't make a different point. Cancel and Consequence is six one way and half a dozen another.

 

Do you even party of personal responsibility, bro?

[DonkeyCigars 144]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Do you even party of personal responsibility, bro?

Yea, I'm down with OPP. I'm just trying to double click into your comment for how obfuscating the name to characterize the same phenomenon but with a less direct and efficient name is helpful or, as you called it, a "great retort".

We all understand that getting cancelled is the consequence of whatever action has taken place.

[Buzzrock 14871]

God this thread is going to be the hottest of garbage in about an hour. 

You’re welcome

[David Dennison 18659]

2 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Yea, I'm down with OPP. I'm just trying to double click into your comment for how obfuscating the name to characterize the same phenomenon but with a less direct and efficient name is helpful or, as you called it, a "great retort".

We all understand that getting cancelled is the consequence of whatever action has taken place.

I'm not sure most of the people on the right who complain about cancel culture understand that.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I'm not sure most of the people on the right who complain about cancel culture understand that.

Gotcha. Well in that regard, I guess I see your point. You are essentially naming Ketchup, "Tomato Juice" for them I guess by changing the name. But I think the problem still remains that call it cancel or consequence, the result is the same: people just need to learn how to read a room and go along to get along.

Edited April 30, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, DonkeyCigars said:

But is it really? It's just abstracting and saying the same thing. A consequence is just an effect to a cause, and in this case it's specifically being "cancelled". Calling it consequence culture doesn't impart some morality or power that calling it cancel culture does.

To give a hypothetical example for illustration (safe harbor/not based on real life/example only): Celebrity A tweets a political opinion which is unpopular and a brand wants to kowtow to political correctness and so has to project a woke image and acts upon it, thus invoking a consequence. The same thing as cancelling. 

It just seems a semantics argument that doesn't make a different point. Cancel and Consequence is six one way and half a dozen another.

 

The whole point is right wing shitheads need to realize that having and spouting out bullshit should have and does have consequences since being a piece of shit doesn’t give you license to act so. It’s really not that complicated.

[lmao 178]

6 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

For example, the right wing lunatics hate antifa. Which literally means anti fascists. Just ask them since they oppose anti fascists do they support pro fascists? They will of course deny it. But the reality is they do. They need to hear the truth about what they support so tell them they in fact support fascists. They will get indignant and storm off but they need to hear the truth. 

Do you support antifa? Pretty sure they're anarchists who hate both parties. Idk. 

[workswithseed 2037]

1 minute ago, lmao said:

Do you support antifa? Pretty sure they're anarchists who hate both parties. Idk. 

I'm pretty sure that the Berlin wall was called the antifascist protection rampart as well. I mean North Korea is also a democracy if that's the case.

[Ted Lange 16052]

2 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

But is it really? It's just abstracting and saying the same thing. A consequence is just an effect to a cause, and in this case it's specifically being "cancelled". Calling it consequence culture doesn't impart some morality or power that calling it cancel culture does.

To give a hypothetical example for illustration (safe harbor/not based on real life/example only): Celebrity A tweets a political opinion which is unpopular and a brand wants to kowtow to political correctness and so has to project a woke image and acts upon it, thus invoking a consequence. The same thing as cancelling. 

It just seems a semantics argument that doesn't make a different point. Cancel and Consequence is six one way and half a dozen another.

 

Except the right wing dipshits do the exact same thing, but somehow it isnt labeled "woke" or "cancel culture."   People on the right are all for boycotts and screaming about people who say something they disagree with, but phonies like you like to talk about WOKE.   GTFO.    

 

 

 

 

[lmao 178]

15 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I'm pretty sure that the Berlin wall was called the antifascist protection rampart as well. I mean North Korea is also a democracy if that's the case.

What does that have to do with some Gen X crustpunk throwing a brick through a Starbucks window? If the Proud Boys went by "Totally Not White Supremacists" that doesn't make it true.

Edited April 30, 2021 by lmao

[TwiceHorn 31283]

10 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, and also, if you actually look at what Carville is saying, he's not entirely wrong.  Messaging is reality.  And the GQP is better at messaging -- even if it's a batshit lie, they're good at beating it into your skull.  The messaging from the left unwittingly lends itself to easy bad characterizations by the GQP.  We need to stop giving them easy fastballs on the outside of the plate that they can smash into next week.  I agree.  I don't disagree with most of the principles behind being "woke," but the messaging creates unnecessary vulnerabilities.

Carville is smart, shrewd, and ruthless.  Dems need more like him.  Even when I was "against" him, I respected the hell out of him.

Relevant example:  his client, Bill Clinton, is one of the smartest men to hold the office and probably the biggest policy wonk, too.  Mayor Pete caliber.  Yet Carville kept him well in touch with his good ol country boy side and the messaging reflected that.  Not a hint of "coastal elite" for Bill, but while there was a "country core," he was every bit as coastal elite as GHWB, albeit in an academic rather than aristocratic way.

James Carville goes a long way to explaining why Bill is Bill and a two-term president and HIllary, without him, is sitting on her wide ass after having lost to probably the biggest dumbfuck to ever hold the office.

Edited April 30, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[workswithseed 2037]

48 minutes ago, lmao said:

What does that have to do with some Gen X crustpunk throwing a brick through a Starbucks window? If the Proud Boys went by "Totally Not White Supremacists" that doesn't make it true.

I'm saying being called antifa doesn't make you a hero.

[Willfully Horn 7915]

2 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I'm saying being called antifa doesn't make you a hero.

Being anti fascist fits the definition.

[workswithseed 2037]

2 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Being anti fascist fits the definition.

Name and action are two different things. They literally killed fascists, not business or a federal building. Was the anifascist rampart keeping those same soldiers out of the East Berlin antifascist?

[David Dennison 18659]

39 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Carville is smart, shrewd, and ruthless.  Dems need more like him.  Even when I was "against" him, I respected the hell out of him.

Relevant example:  his client, Bill Clinton, is one of the smartest men to hold the office and probably the biggest policy wonk, too.  Mayor Pete caliber.  Yet Carville kept him well in touch with his good ol country boy side and the messaging reflected that.  Not a hint of "coastal elite" for Bill, but while there was a "country core," he was every bit as coastal elite as GHWB, albeit in an academic rather than aristocratic way.

James Carville goes a long way to explaining why Bill is Bill and a two-term president and HIllary, without him, is sitting on her wide ass after having lost to probably the biggest dumbfuck to ever hold the office.

Thank you, Ross Perot.

[Willfully Horn 7915]

16 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Name and action are two different things. They literally killed fascists, not business or a federal building. Was the anifascist rampart keeping those same soldiers out of the East Berlin antifascist?

Sorry, I am confused by your question.

If you identify a fascist, oppose them. I don’t know enough about Portland’s police Union to declare it to be fascist, but wouldn’t be surprised if folks saw it as fascistic. Antifa attacking Portland’s police Union building can be both illegal and opposition to perceived fascism.

I see a difference between communist totalitarianism and fascism, but I recognize others blend it all together. I oppose both.

 

 

[Gengs1 2583]

What the problem Dems is being pussies and not attacking the Rs on the dumb shot they do. Go after them on workers rights, wages etc, have a coordinated effort where they sing the same tune against the Rs, they needed to make a bigger story of Cruz dipshit travel.

The Rs keep the message stupid and the same,  repeat, it’s pretty useful.

the Ds play nice and they lose    

[workswithseed 2037]

36 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Sorry, I am confused by your question.

If you identify a fascist, oppose them. I don’t know enough about Portland’s police Union to declare it to be fascist, but wouldn’t be surprised if folks saw it as fascistic. Antifa attacking Portland’s police Union building can be both illegal and opposition to perceived fascism.

I see a difference between communist totalitarianism and fascism, but I recognize others blend it all together. I oppose both.

 

 

I have a hard time seeing the difference between Nazi Germany, and Communist Russia, other than Nazism didn't do lysenkoism. 

[Willfully Horn 7915]

10 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I have a hard time seeing the difference between Nazi Germany, and Communist Russia, other than Nazism didn't do lysenkoism. 

This might help. Fascists don’t even try to pretend that wealth and property are owned by “the people.”

[lmao 178]

6 hours ago, workswithseed said:

I'm saying being called antifa doesn't make you a hero.

Woosh

[TwiceHorn 31283]

6 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Thank you, Ross Perot.

Even without Perot, I think Clinton would have won two terms, post-Bush.

Isn't it insane to think that derangement syndromes began with Clinton?   Bill.  Clinton.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

40 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Even without Perot, I think Clinton would have won two terms, post-Bush.

Isn't it insane to think that derangement syndromes began with Clinton?   Bill.  Clinton.

Bill Clinton was and is awesome. I’ve always thought that. Maybe it was my age and mindset when he was in his prime, but I’ve always had a soft spot for ole Slick Willy

[bad_teammate 13132]

11 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

My delusion is that people who teach do so for themselves and their students.

"system"

6 hours ago, workswithseed said:

I have a hard time seeing the difference between Nazi Germany, and Communist Russia, other than Nazism didn't do lysenkoism. 

Imagine waking up in the morning in order to spend time being a Nazi defender and apologist.

How do you get to that point in your life?

[Asithappens 974]

17 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

What would you call a class of people who live on the coast, create/control culture, make a ton of money, and work explicitly and openly for the interests of the Top 0.1%?

 

I would call those people Republicans. Or most of them.

[Asithappens 974]

14 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

Seriously who listens to these old white men anymore? I guess other old, white men. I mean really, who gives a shit?

Look at the content of the message, not just the messenger. 

But you do you.

[workswithseed 2037]

6 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

This might help. Fascists don’t even try to pretend that wealth and property are owned by “the people.”

Well they do socialize the people, not property.

20 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"system"

Imagine waking up in the morning in order to spend time being a Nazi defender and apologist.

How do you get to that point in your life?

Wut?

Edited April 30, 2021 by workswithseed