Carville: Democrats have a wokeness problem

[bad_teammate 13132]

15 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

But defending Mao and Stalin with conservative death toll estimates is totally cool! 

Are those "conservative"? I'm happy to look at sourcing if you want to provide evidence to back the assertion that I'm defending Mao and Stalin with purposefully chosen numbers.

Tufts University - Cultural Revolution: "We use the figure of 1.5 million fatalities within our criteria for this period." (I said 2 million, which is higher than 1.5 million)

As for the Great Purge, my 1M is actually me on the high side yet again.
- According to Michael Ellman, the total number of deaths due to Stalinist repression in 1937–38 to be between 950,000 to 1.2 million.[2]
- According to Viktor Zemskov, the total number of those sentenced to death as a result of criminal court cases in 1937–38 was 353,074 in 1937, and 328,618 in 1938.[1]

 

Dear future Hitler defenders,

Just shut up you always embarrass yourself.

Sincerely,

b_t

[formermav43 4599]

You might begin by reading your own cited source a bit more closely, as an example. The very next sentence after the one you quote states, "Estimates of fatalities during the Cultural Revolution vary wildly – ranging between one million and 20 million (though the former is probably closer to the true number than the latter)."

[hayden_horn 11360]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

When you find yourself defending Hitler you really need to just stop and put the keyboard away.

I don't know why you freaks keep starting this. It's alarming.

what's bizarre is that you are reading my posts as any sort of "defense" of hitler. everything is so fucking binary for you. it's absurd.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Do you know what "former" and "latter" mean? @formermav43

Edited April 30, 2021 by bad_teammate

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

what's bizarre is that you are reading my posts as any sort of "defense" of hitler. everything is so fucking binary for you. it's absurd.

I'm not sure how to take it when you say Mao and Stalin are "way worse than Hitler" and then offer no statistics, facts, or even logic.

If you came from a position of genuine knowledge and understanding that would make some kind of weird sense, but you're just going on a desire to make sure we know Hitler is not as bad as them even though you apparently don't know anything about why that might be.

Edited April 30, 2021 by bad_teammate

[formermav43 4599]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Do you know what "former" and "latter" mean?

Do you think that's somehow responsive?

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, formermav43 said:

Do you think that's somehow responsive?

It would help me understand what point you think you're making. You tried to own me by quoting that the number I provided is more likely to be true than the one you want to promote.

If a source says one number is more likely to be true than another, why would I go with the less probable number?

[formermav43 4599]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It would help me understand what point you think you're making. You tried to own me by quoting that the number I provided is more likely to be true than the one you want to promote.

If a source says one number is more likely to be true than another, why would I go with the less probable number?

Well no, that's not what I did. 

You asked, "Are those 'conservative?'" I simply pointed out, from your own source, that estimates vary widely, from 1 to 20 million. Of course they think the number is more likely to be toward the low end, given their own estimate of 1.5 million. It would hardly be reasonable for them to say, "We estimate that the number is 1.5 million, though something closer to 20 million is more likely." And, to your point, using their own estimate to prove that their estimate is more likely seems rather circular.

At any rate, I wasn't attempting to prove that any number was more likely than another, just that estimates vary widely. I would say that on a scale of 1 to 20 million, 2 million is toward the conservative end. Perhaps you disagree with that.

 

 

[burntorangebongos 10681]

As if the Ramones, a throw back to late 50s early 60s rock and roll garage band sound could have happened at any other time. What a dumbass. Fuck that guy and his shitty take. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, formermav43 said:

Well no, that's not what I did. 

You asked, "Are those 'conservative?'" I simply pointed out, from your own source, that estimates vary widely, from 1 to 20 million. Of course they think the number is more likely to be toward the low end, given their own estimate of 1.5 million. It would hardly be reasonable for them to say, "We estimate that the number is 1.5 million, though something closer to 20 million is more likely." And, to your point, using their own estimate to prove that their estimate is more likely seems rather circular.

They aren't using their estimate to prove their estimate is more likely. 

Quote

 I would say that on a scale of 1 to 20 million, 2 million is toward the conservative end. Perhaps you disagree with that.

Of course I disagree with it, because it's nonsense.

Researchers don't just look at a range of numbers and then choose the middle. They look at the sources and estimates and go through processes of logic and deduction and fact-checking and further research.

Stop. Just stop. You're doing all this backfilling because you wanted to start from a presumption that Hiter is Not Actually As Bad As You Think and you're tripping all over yourself, now accusing people at Tufts of Mao apologism. Just shut up.

 

[hayden_horn 11360]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/

i mean, whatever. 

Quote

Who was the biggest mass murderer in the history of the world? Most people probably assume that the answer is Adolf Hitler, architect of the Holocaust. Others might guess Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin, who may indeed have managed to kill even more innocent people than Hitler did, many of them as part of a terror famine that likely took more lives than the Holocaust. But both Hitler and Stalin were outdone by Mao Zedong. From 1958 to 1962, his Great Leap Forward policy led to the deaths of up to 45 million people – easily making it the biggest episode of mass murder ever recorded.

<snip>

The fact that Mao’s atrocities resulted in many more deaths than those of Hitler does not necessarily mean he was the more evil of the two. The greater death toll is partly the result of the fact that Mao ruled over a much larger population for a much longer time. I lost several relatives in the Holocaust myself, and have no wish to diminish its significance. But the vast scale of Chinese communist atrocities puts them in the same general ballpark. At the very least, they deserve far more recognition than they currently receive.

it's just weird to me that you have this inherent need to defend mao vs hitler. the second paragraph in the above quote explains my position more clearly than i have apparently done for you.

i will own that cultural revolution number, though i feel that 1.5 million people out of some 660 million people in the 60s is a very low ballpark figure, given what occurred during the cultural revolution.

mao killed tens of millions more people than hitler. 

stalin did as well.

https://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789

Quote

In February 1989, two years before the fall of the Soviet Union, a research paper by Georgian historian Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev published in the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives (on top of the estimated 20 million Soviet troops and civilians who perished in the Second World War), for a total tally of 40 million.

''It's important that they published it, although the numbers themselves are horrible,'' Medvedev told the New York Times at the time.

''Those numbers include my father.''

Medevedev's grim bookkeeping included the following tragic episodes: 1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2  to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the ''Great Terror'' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various “political crimes” from 1946 to 1953.

Although not everyone who was swept up in the aforementioned events died from unnatural causes, Medvedev’s 20 million non-combatant deaths estimate is likely a conservative guess.

Indeed, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin’s victims might have been as high as 60 million.

all these dudes were bad, as was the party structure surrounding them.

we'll never know how many eastern bloc people were killed by stalin in his ongoing purges. same with mao in china and his ongoing purging. mostly because they enjoyed the luxury of killing their own people behind their own borders in secrecy. all three were first class assholes for whom human life was largely expendable as long as they retained their grip on power. guess what? THAT ALSO MEANS HITLER WAS TERRIBLE. your binary thinking is so ridiculous. you're trying to make me out as some kind of nazi for pointing out that other authoritarian assholes killed more people than hitler. kudos, i guess, for engaging in the rhetoric that carville says democrats need to succeed. act more republican, b_t, it is really a good look for you!

the thing about authoritarians is that they are basically despots. they can say they are socialist, communist, or even democratic (hi north korea!), but the reality is that they are authoritarian despots who rule with an iron fist and kill a ton of people and they are monsters. 

[formermav43 4599]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

They aren't using their estimate to prove their estimate is more likely. 

Of course I disagree with it, because it's nonsense.

Researchers don't just look at a range of numbers and then choose the middle. They look at the sources and estimates and go through processes of logic and deduction and fact-checking and further research.

Stop. Just stop. You're doing all this backfilling because you wanted to start from a presumption that Hiter is Not Actually As Bad As You Think and you're tripping all over yourself, now accusing people at Tufts of Mao apologism. Just shut up.

 

No, I'm starting from a presumption that you are intellectually dishonest. You continue to demonstrate that in this exchange, as usual. There's nothing more that needs to be said anyway.

 

[burntorangebongos 10681]

Whoever triggered BT's pedanticism (yeah, I made up a word, bite my tit) needs to get bukkaked by all the guys visiting South Austin's mom today. Sheesh. You are fighting over real stupid shit with a man with kids in their late 40s. Stahp

[High Plains Drifter 10977]

1 hour ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Comparison talk of bloodthirsty despots not going away

 

no shit. You assholes will argue about anything.

 

 

[hayden_horn 11360]

Just now, High Plains Drifter said:

 

no shit. You assholes will argue about anything.

 

 

no we won't

[Bat Guano 359]

You fuckers have been seeded. Where is workswithseed now, I ask you? He got you arguing among yourselves about a stupid topic and now he's nowhere to be found. Mission accomplished. You always take the bait, don't you?

The original topic is more interesting. 

Carville is a political pro, which means in essence he's a marketing guy. He cares less about the principles he's selling than selling them and winning races, and he's damn good at it. He can read the room.

There was actually a time when I seriously considered voting for Trump. It was early on, a week or two after he came down the escalator; he was talking about how he'd been making donations to politicians for decades, and always getting something out of it. He promised to put an end to it. That appealed to me, deep in my gut. This was before I realized that he doesn't utter a single sentence fragment without at least three or four lies in it.

Of course it didn't take long to figure out he was lying about that, but soon after that his 'promise' evolved into the 'drain the swamp' bullshit. Trump never actually came up with that; it was a line put in one of his speeches by someone, he tried it out at a rally, and it got a good response, so he kept it in. Same as the 'build the wall' stuff; that was just another throwaway line that caught fire at a rally. Trump is a moron, but he knows how to sell shit; stuff that is popular stays in, whether he agrees with it or even knows what the hell he is saying.

Carville works the same way, without the lying; he doesn't have to lie, because the policies his chosen party advocate for are inherently popular, but he knows what gets people fired up. That's all he's really saying; it's pure messaging and marketing. Push the 15/hour wage, the right to vote, and all the other popular stuff. Make snappy slogans and sell those ideas; it's easy because people already like them. You don't have to ignore the stuff that is easily caricatured by the other side, but just keep pushing the popular stuff. It's not fucking rocket surgery.

[bad_teammate 13132]

I'm sourcing actual historians and Tufts University.

You provide The Volokh Conspiracy and an ibtimes op-ed piece that counts the 20M Soviet soldiers killed in WWII into Stalin's total?

... the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives (on top of the estimated 20 million Soviet troops and civilians who perished in the Second World War), for a total tally of 40 million.

My god.

The purpose isn't to defend Mao, but to actually understand history, which is important especially with regard to how history manifests in the present. It's not a coincidence that we have thousands of YouTube-educated white men flocking to message boards to "WELL, ACTUALLY" on Hitler's behalf at the same time we have neo-Nazis killing people and invading the US Capitol.

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

A statement that should be uncontroversial: Adolf Hitler is the worst dictator of modern, living memory

But it is somehow controversial... because right-wing white men have gone insane.

[DigglerontheHoof 21065]

If you're reading b_t's posts, it's your own damn fault. 

[DDD Dad 14252]

Oh look, another thread derail by b_t.  Who could have seen that coming?

[Mole 4320]

BT’s posts on this page are stunning in their intellectual dishonesty. It’s art really.

[Willfully Horn 7916]

Fuck it

Edited April 30, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Fuck it

[washparkhorn 9935]

Thanks Carville.

[bad_teammate 13132]

honestly didn't know that arguing that Hitler is the worst dictator ever was going to be my triggered-old-man thing but here we are.

still baffled how so many are cool with letting it go uncontested. Oh well. Dismal tide and all.

[Nivek 16861]

2 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

well know water head weighs in on "wokeness"

 

Mother?

[bad_teammate 13132]

TIL punk required mainstream social acceptance to be what it was

[washparkhorn 9935]

President Obama on Carville:

"James Carville is well-known for spouting off his mouth without always knowing what he’s talking about.

And I intend to stay focused on fighting for the American people because what they don’t need is 20 more years of performance art on television.

And that’s what James Carville and a lot of those folks are expert at . . ., a lot of talk and not getting things done for the American people."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/carville-if-hillary-gave_n_100038

[hpslugga 4044]

2 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

President Obama on Carville:

"James Carville is well-known for spouting off his mouth without always knowing what he’s talking about.

And I intend to stay focused on fighting for the American people because what they don’t need is 20 more years of performance art on television.

And that’s what James Carville and a lot of those folks are expert at . . ., a lot of talk and not getting things done for the American people."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/carville-if-hillary-gave_n_100038

Well Obama was a piece of performance art in his own right, but he wasn’t exactly wrong there. Just seems odd coming from him as I figured those types had a modicum of professional courtesy, especially when they play for the same team.

Edited April 30, 2021 by hpslugga

[washparkhorn 9935]

3 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Well Obama was a piece of performance art in his own right, but he wasn’t exactly wrong there. Just seems odd coming from him as I figured those types had a modicum of professional courtesy

President Obama was responding to Carville saying (nutshell - "if Hillary gave Obama one of her balls, they would both have two.")

See the link for the precise quote. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/carville-if-hillary-gave_n_100038

Edited April 30, 2021 by washparkhorn

[hpslugga 4044]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

President Obama was responding to Carville saying (nutshell - "if Hillary gave Obama one of her balls, they would both have two.")

See the link for the precise quote. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/carville-if-hillary-gave_n_100038

He always was a champion Clintonite

[bad_teammate 13132]

9 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Well Obama was a piece of performance art in his own right, but he wasn’t exactly wrong there. Just seems odd coming from him as I figured those types had a modicum of professional courtesy, especially when they play for the same team.

The Dem primary between Obama and Hillary was extremely nasty. Those factions hated each other. 

I've talked about it before, but I was an organizer for Barry and the Hillary/Barry lines were separated at our primary location and it was ugly. PUMA, all that stuff.

[hpslugga 4044]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The Dem primary between Obama and Hillary was extremely nasty. Those factions hated each other. 

I've talked about it before, but I was an organizer for Barry and the Hillary/Barry lines were separated at our primary location and it was ugly. PUMA, all that stuff.

Oh I remember. Followed all the way through and even remember watching a Boston Legal episode that focused on it and it captured the mood of the whole thing quite well.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

46 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Oh I remember. Followed all the way through and even remember watching a Boston Legal episode that focused on it and it captured the mood of the whole thing quite well.

And in the end it wound up being as futile and stupid as two bald men fighting over a comb.

[Goredho 17349]

Petition for rename of thread to “Despotic Yak Shaving Thread of Dominance”
 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

TIL punk required mainstream social acceptance to be what it was

lol, yeah, I don't think he thought that one through. which, well, should come as a surprise to no one

[High Plains Drifter 10977]

2 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Fuck it

 

best post in this thread

 

 

[henrygandorf 29177]

20 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

We all understand that getting cancelled is the consequence of whatever action has taken place.

just getting caught up on this thread, and i honestly only skimmed the godwin's law portions, but i believe there is an important distinction with this ^ argument.

"cancel" culture attaches responsibility/blame to the cancellers.

"consequence" culture attaches responsibility/blame to the cancelled.

pretty big difference, imo.

[Mole 4320]

Lavar Burton is really great in discussing those issues in that interview. Everything in our political culture seems so antagonist that it’s disarming the way he addresses things.

[JimmyJames 12271]

4 hours ago, burntorangebongos said:

Whoever triggered BT's pedanticism (yeah, I made up a word, bite my tit) needs to get bukkaked by all the guys visiting South Austin's mom today. Sheesh. You are fighting over real stupid shit with a man with kids in their late 40s. Stahp

I member the three page argument where BT was claiming the metal detectors in the Capitol violated the constitution.

Good times.

[JimmyJames 12271]

Arguing over who was worse, Hitler or Stalin, is like arguing over whose shit smells worse.

[JimmyJames 12271]

Look I didn’t eat any garlic during lunch and you had a whole shitload of baked beans, garlic and onions. So don’t be telling me my shit smells worse asshole!

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

you forget to log in/out of your sock account or did you hit the sauce early?

[Pods 7530]

33 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Arguing over who was worse, Hitler or Stalin, is like arguing over whose shit smells worse.

This is the dumbest post yet in the Hitler vs Stalin debates. It's obviously Hitler, his gas killed over 6 million people.

[Superhero 8775]

5 pages in and no Bill Hader as James Carville?

 

And, I agree with James Carville on the need for Dems to go for the jugular. Take EVERY opportunity to tie the 147 members of congress to the insurrection, repeat, rinse and repeat. Burn and salt the earth that Gym, Gaetz, MTG, Cruz, Hawley and Tits Mcgee stand on.

It was fucking frustrating watching Lincoln Project go after Trump again and again, while the Dems stood by trying to play fair. 

Trump, Fox News, Tucker, Hannity and Rush are/were masters at sloganing against the Dems, truth be damned.

Who's it gonna be on the Dem's side to go bareknuckle against the Rs? Because if they don't, they'll lose the house in 2022.

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

29 minutes ago, Pods said:

This is the dumbest post yet in the Hitler vs Stalin debates. It's obviously Hitler, his gas killed over 6 million people.

Well I agree Hitler was worse. Stalin was plenty evil too. Just pointing out it’s a dumb argument. 

[Pods 7530]

14 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Well I agree Hitler was worse. Stalin was plenty evil too. Just pointing out it’s a dumb argument. 

My apologies, no offense was intended JJ. I meant it as a joke setting up another joke. I think we all know the worst posts on this topic, as so many others, are by @workswithseed.

[JimmyJames 12271]

5 minutes ago, Pods said:

My apologies, no offense was intended JJ. I meant it as a joke setting up another joke. I think we all know the worst posts on this topic, as so many others, are by @workswithseed.

No offense ever taken on the bathroom wall we call the net. So no apologies necessary. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

you forget to log in/out of your sock account or did you hit the sauce early?

If this is directed at me it’s the latter. It is Friday night after all and I lost my socks. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

it's actually pretty important to realize that Hitler is the worst. You know, what with a burgeoning fascist movement in America with open neo-Nazis and all inside a nation where we held a "WE LOVE YOU!" rally for Hitler in MSG

[JimmyJames 12271]

16 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

it's actually pretty important to realize that Hitler is the worst. You know, what with a burgeoning fascist movement in America with open neo-Nazis and all inside a nation where we held a "WE LOVE YOU!" rally for Hitler in MSG

Way back in 1980 this county both hated and made fun of Illinois Nazis. And then John Belushi passed away and something happened along the way. Makes me long for simpler times.