Carville: Democrats have a wokeness problem

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

6 minutes ago, F250 said:

I've actually experienced a lot of racism in Austin. As a Mexican whitey I've been a fly on the wall with white people my entire life. I am very familiar with the people that look around before making the racist joke. Often I've seen it done with the person not realizing a Mexican was sitting in front of them. When confronted they don't appreciate it. "I thought you were white, I voted for Obama, I'm a Democrat, etc.."

It's not blatant racism but it's racism nonetheless. A good example of this would be all of the Alamo Bowl threads. There are a shit ton of jokes about Mexican families in the cheap seats in just about every fucking Alamo Bowl thread. I've heard the same shit in Austin a million times. Often it will be justified as a joke about San Antonio when in reality it's a joke about Hispanic culture.

Nivek's snide remark about "I'm being repressed" is just more of the same shit. It's an attempt to belittle a legitimate complaint from minorities. I'm sure he justifies it with "But I voted for Biden."

Actually, that plays pretty well into my previous point -- the language used is nowhere near as important as the intent, and the actual conveyed meaning. You can use all the "correct pronouns" you want, and still be an offensive son of a bitch, or you can use clearly non-PC slang, but not convey malice. Circumstances and context mean everything, and who you voted for doesn't change the substantive content of what you say, regardless of how you say it.

[HenryJames 65890]

25 minutes ago, F250 said:

As a Mexican whitey

Mexican whitey is not the preferred nomenclature. Guero, please.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

4 hours ago, Nivek said:

 I can be whatever fantasy you have, but you have to pay me first.  You are used to that.

Getting personal, eh? Solid burn nonetheless.

[F250 28691]

7 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Getting personal, eh? Solid burn nonetheless.

I'm not offended and I don't pay. With that said, the highly active CR posters need to put more effort into getting laid and less time getting into internet fights.

 

[tantric superman 4667]

I guess the issue is whether complaining about LatinX is a "legitimate complaint from minorities".   I don't think legitimate is really a helpful word here, because I guess everyone is entitled to their own level of sensitivity.

But the use of the term is neither objectively or reasonably racist.  It may not be a helpful term and it may be silly, but competely understand in the context of its progenitors, latino and latina.

 

[tantric superman 4667]

Or maybe that's not even what you guys are talking about. 

[David Dennison 18660]

The more that I think about it, James Carville is proof that Democrats have a honky problem.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

24 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

I guess the issue is whether complaining about LatinX is a "legitimate complaint from minorities".   I don't think legitimate is really a helpful word here, because I guess everyone is entitled to their own level of sensitivity.

But the use of the term is neither objectively or reasonably racist.  It may not be a helpful term and it may be silly, but competely understand in the context of its progenitors, latino and latina.

 

As an obvious Iberophile or Latinamericophile or whatever-- what is your opinion? I'm genuinely interested and curious and think it's worth knowing because you have proven, through both crappy takes on stupid movies and general criticisms of more legitimate movies, to be an aforementioned.

Edited May 3, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[DonkeyCigars 144]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

The more that I think

Let me stop you here before you hurt yourself and further devalue this thread :-p

[tantric superman 4667]

It seems pretty simple.  I would think that latinas and latinos of various gender identities might have an issue with the generic term "Latino", so "LatinX" seems like a reasonable, efficient suggestion for reference to the collective group. I think Latini and Latine and Latinu all have a bit more rhythm.  Maybe LatinQ is reserved for all the fucktards in Texas who voted for Trump.  

But to me it's not any more controversial than referring to a mixed group as "you guys".  The language is fluid. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by tantric superman

[956 Worldwide 34444]

Here’s an article that’s a bit relevant to this debate. It’s a nice piece of absurdity from an undergraduate at Georgetown, who has begun studying Arabic and has discovered that Arabic is a gendered language and is insufficiently LGBT friendly. What to do? Of course, Georgetown needs to transform Arabic into a language that is sufficiently woke. There is an undeniable Puritan strain among the hyperwoke, and it’s on display here— any curiosity and willingness to engage with genuine difference is subordinate to the demands of enforcing heavily moralized standards.  I should not have to point out the parallel between this and the bad old White Man’s Burden.  This essay is mind numbing in its stupidity— it was written by a first year college student— but these ideas are pushed a bit more artfully by people far smarter. 
 

https://thehoya.com/viewpoint-develop-gender-neutral-language-in-arabic/

 

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

2 hours ago, F250 said:

I've actually experienced a lot of racism in Austin. As a Mexican whitey I've been a fly on the wall with white people my entire life. I am very familiar with the people that look around before making the racist joke. Often I've seen it done with the person not realizing a Mexican was sitting in front of them. When confronted they don't appreciate it. "I thought you were white, I voted for Obama, I'm a Democrat, etc.."

It's not blatant racism but it's racism nonetheless. A good example of this would be all of the Alamo Bowl threads. There are a shit ton of jokes about Mexican families in the cheap seats in just about every fucking Alamo Bowl thread. I've heard the same shit in Austin a million times. Often it will be justified as a joke about San Antonio when in reality it's a joke about Hispanic culture.

Nivek's snide remark about "I'm being repressed" is just more of the same shit. It's an attempt to belittle a legitimate complaint from minorities. I'm sure he justifies it with "But I voted for Biden."

 

 

 

 

yeah, I would think that the more closeted racism is worse than overt racism. if it's out in the open, it can be dealt with. if the offender denies or hides their malady, it's really, really hard to correct.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Longhorn_Fan68

[tantric superman 4667]

22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Arabic is a gendered language and is insufficiently LGBT friendly. What to do? Of course, Georgetown needs to transform Arabic into a language that is sufficiently woke.

On your advice, will not read the article.   But not sure how you get "sufficiently LGBT friendly" as being "woke".

If woke means "open to the concerns of others" and "not an asshole", then I guess it's good to be woke.  I've always though woke implied some level of overkill - something beyond an attempt to make others feel more comfortable.

Stated more plainly, people SHOULD be sufficiently LGBT friendly. 

[Nivek 16861]

2 hours ago, Walden Ponderer said:

This is true. Typically, they will insinuate that calling someone a racist is a worse offense than actually being a racist. I have encountered that phenomenon to some degree everywhere I've ever been, but it is especially pronounced in College Station, Texas, for some reason.

That might be true to a degree.  But when you find yourself making an argument that is basically co-opted from poor 90s stand-up routines you might want to consider the fallacy being presented.  (You are an alcoholic!  Oh no? Well you must be an alcoholic in denial! (que the canned laugh track))

 

[tantric superman 4667]

7 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

yeah, I would think that the more closeted racism is worse than overt racism. if it's out in the open, it can be dealt with. if the offender denies or hides their malady, it's really, really hard to correct.

No, overt racism like lynching and burning crosses and shouting racial slurs and being shot in the back by Texas Rangers always seems worse to me.

 

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

13 minutes ago, Nivek said:

That might be true to a degree.  But when you find yourself making an argument that is basically co-opted from poor 90s stand-up routines you might want to consider the fallacy being presented.  (You are an alcoholic!  Oh no? Well you must be an alcoholic in denial! (que the canned laugh track))

I've read this through three times, and I can't for the life of me see that you're making any kind of point. Racists getting huffy about being called racists should be given a pass because they say so? Sorry, no. Say something racist, expect to be called a racist. Snowflake feelings don't change facts.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

  

13 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

No, overt racism like lynching and burning crosses and shouting racial slurs and being shot in the back by Texas Rangers always seems worse to me.

 

 

good point

Edited May 3, 2021 by Longhorn_Fan68

[956 Worldwide 34444]

48 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

It seems pretty simple.  I would think that latinas and latinos of various gender identities might have an issue with the generic term "Latino", so "LatinX" seems like a reasonable, efficient suggestion for reference to the collective group. I think Latini and Latine and Latinu all have a bit more rhythm.  Maybe LatinQ is reserved for all the fucktards in Texas who voted for Trump.  

But to me it's not any more controversial than referring to a mixed group as "you guys".  The language is fluid. 

I think you’re looking at this through only one lens.  Try to look at it through the lens of the millions of people who are hearing— thanks to English speaking activists— that the language they speak, think in, dream in, and heard from their mothers is morally defective (and that is the claim). But not to worry, English speakers know how to fix it for you. And add into that the long, long , ugly legacy of Spanish speakers hearing from English speakers in this country that their language is ugly and inferior.

That the term comes from activists that share their background is only marginally better, relations between immigrants and the integrated are highly fraught in the best of circumstances and it’s harder because you don’t know who is on what side. I’m happy to call Latinx activist whatever they want on the grounds of “don’t be an asshole” but try not to deny that going on a crusade against an entire language is a bit deeper than that. 

[956 Worldwide 34444]

25 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

On your advice, will not read the article.   But not sure how you get "sufficiently LGBT friendly" as being "woke".

If woke means "open to the concerns of others" and "not an asshole", then I guess it's good to be woke.  I've always though woke implied some level of overkill - something beyond an attempt to make others feel more comfortable.

Stated more plainly, people SHOULD be sufficiently LGBT friendly. 

If you’re looking for the dividing line between “woke” and “LGBT friendly”, then you might start with the proposition “an elite Jesuit Washington D.C. university needs to lead the reform of Arabic grammar” and how you think that might play with a recent immigrant from Cairo. 

[tantric superman 4667]

4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I think you’re looking at this through only one lens.  Try to look at it through the lens of the millions of people who are hearing— thanks to English speaking activists— that the language they speak, think in, dream in, and heard from their mothers is morally defective (and that is the claim).

I am.  And suggesting they get the fuck over it because the claim is pretty silly.  Not that their maybe some people who claim that it is morally defective.  But it's clearly semantically unclear.  Hence, the attempt to find an alternative, no matter how hamfisted.

[Pancho 44487]

19 hours ago, F250 said:

Being labeled by outsiders as something other than what one identifies as can be pretty fucking insulting. Then when it's explained as a criticism of the gender based language and machismo is used as an example of the gender bias it’s not only insulting to our language it’s insulting to our culture.

I have no issues with this discussion occurring within the community but when outside institutions jump on the wagon and pick a side it feels like we are being told what we are and how we should be by whitey.

I find this interesting because the term Latinx was started by Hispanics (LGBTQ Hispanics).

 

I was also told Hispanics was derogatory. My friend (Mexican from the valley) hates being called that.

[tantric superman 4667]

4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

If you’re looking for the dividing line between “woke” and “LGBT friendly”, then you might start with the proposition “an elite Jesuit Washington D.C. university needs to lead the reform of Arabic grammar” and how you think that might play with a recent immigrant from Cairo. 

You told me not to read the article and now you want to focus on the article. 

We'd probably be better off if you didn't go out of your way to disseminate stupidity. 

But I'll take it that you don't think a complete reform of Arabic grammar isn't required in order to be sensitive to the concerns of the LGBT community.  Just like a complete reform of Spanish grammar is not required to tolerate some news agencies and speakers to use shorthand in certain instances. 

[elfenix 34171]

you could degender it to "latin" which is already a word.  and not sound completely up your own ass.

[hayden_horn 11360]

4 minutes ago, elfenix said:

you could degender it to "latin" which is already a word.  and not sound completely up your own ass.

seriously.

my latina wife, latina mother-in-law, and latino brother in law all hate the idea of latinx. i guess if someone asked me to refer to them as latinx, i would out of respect, but it seems arbitrary and stupid to me.

[tantric superman 4667]

11 minutes ago, Pancho said:

I find this interesting because the term Latino was started by Hispanics (LGBTQ Hispanics).

 

I was also told Hispanics was derogatory. My friend (Mexican from the valley) hates being called that.

I'm not sure about that.  Latino started to be used in the late 40s, I think.  And Hispanics is just derived from a 16th century Hispanicus and started to be used in the 70s.  I doubt there is a derogatory background to their origin.

And tell your friend it's either Hispanic or puto.  His choice.

[tantric superman 4667]

13 minutes ago, elfenix said:

you could degender it to "latin" which is already a word.  and not sound completely up your own ass.

I got Latin cancelled, so no, that won't work.

[Pancho 44487]

3 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

I'm not sure about that.  Latino started to be used in the late 40s, I think.  And Hispanics is just derived from a 16th century Hispanicus and started to be used in the 70s.  I doubt there is a derogatory background to their origin.

And tell your friend it's either Hispanic or puto.  His choice.

I meant Latinx. My phone autocorrected it.

my friend can be douchy

[956 Worldwide 34444]

21 minutes ago, Pancho said:

I find this interesting because the term Latino was started by Hispanics (LGBTQ Hispanics).

 

I was also told Hispanics was derogatory. My friend (Mexican from the valley) hates being called that.

Most Mexicans don’t mind being called Mexicans.  It’s only awkward bolillos from the Metromess suburbs that feel the need to whisper Mexican like it’s some sort of naughty word.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

21 minutes ago, elfenix said:

you could degender it to "latin" which is already a word.  and not sound completely up your own ass.

Too much like Oriental.

[Zepol87 9171]

29 minutes ago, Pancho said:

I find this interesting because the term Latinx was started by Hispanics (LGBTQ Hispanics).

 

I was also told Hispanics was derogatory. My friend (Mexican from the valley) hates being called that.

The only firends and family I have that care about "hispanic" are paisas and they bitch about everything anyway. As far as latinx is it really a thing besides brochures and stuff? I have never heard another say that without joking. I am a pretty white mexican though

[Pancho 44487]

7 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Most Mexicans don’t mind being called Mexicans.  It’s only awkward bolillos from the Metromess suburbs that feel the need to whisper Mexican like it’s some sort of naughty word.

Well the same can be said about African American and Black. And this is mostly with White people but in my experience they say African American a lot and when they don’t they correct themselves. My response is always “You can say Black. It’s not a bad word.”

[956 Worldwide 34444]

4 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Too much like Oriental.

Lulz, I was sitting in a room where a socially awkward white woman mathematics professor from West Texas A&M was giving a readout of her semester researching abroad. She said “my office mate and I couldn’t talk much, because she was an Oriental of some sort, but we really enjoyed each other’s company.”

[YChang 3431]

So after 8 pages in.. we've learned identity and how to describe it can be a tricky thing depending on the person or context huh?

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2059]

African American seemed to be the only option for about 20 years.  Black has made a comeback.

 

Re: Latinx, I don't even know how to say it.  La Tinks?  La teen ex? 

[elfenix 34171]

2 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

The only firends and family I have that care about "hispanic" are paisas and they bitch about everything anyway. As far as latinx is it really a thing besides brochures and stuff? I have never heard another say that without joking. I am a pretty white mexican though

know how i know you don't listen to npr

[elfenix 34171]

1 minute ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

African American seemed to be the only option for about 20 years.  Black has made a comeback.

 

Re: Latinx, I don't even know how to say it.  La Tinks?  La teen ex? 

latin-eks.  it's totally awkward. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by elfenix

[tantric superman 4667]

Lotta fucking Spaniards on this site.

[Pancho 44487]

2 minutes ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

African American seemed to be the only option for about 20 years.  Black has made a comeback.

 

Re: Latinx, I don't even know how to say it.  La Tinks?  La teen ex? 

2 ways

Latin-x

La-teen-x

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2059]

1 minute ago, tantric superman said:

Lotta fucking Spaniards on this site.

yeah, hispanic was my go to for a while before someone pointed that out to me.

[Nivek 16861]

50 minutes ago, Walden Ponderer said:

I've read this through three times, and I can't for the life of me see that you're making any kind of point. Racists getting huffy about being called racists should be given a pass because they say so? Sorry, no. Say something racist, expect to be called a racist. Snowflake feelings don't change facts.

In the 1990s there was a large awareness of alcoholism.  Comedians would make fun of some of the dialog which amounted to an accusation and a denial is just proof the accusation is true.   Let me restate,  WP you are an alcoholic.  If you say yes, then great.  If you say no, then you are just an alcoholic in denial.  

[Asithappens 974]

The term Latinx is virtue signaling bullshit, used by virtue-signaling bullshitters.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

27 minutes ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

African American seemed to be the only option for about 20 years.  Black has made a comeback.

 

Re: Latinx, I don't even know how to say it.  La Tinks?  La teen ex? 

Latin-equis.   Seriously though "x" in Spanish is kinda crazy. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Judge Roybeanbag

[Satchel 6908]

34 minutes ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

African American seemed to be the only option for about 20 years.  Black has made a comeback.

 

Re: Latinx, I don't even know how to say it.  La Tinks?  La teen ex? 

Mainly because black is the all encompassing term for people possessing an abundance of melanin.

[burntorangebongos 10681]

1 hour ago, Pancho said:

I find this interesting because the term Latinx was started by Hispanics (LGBTQ Hispanics).

 

I was also told Hispanics was derogatory. My friend (Mexican from the valley) hates being called that.

Fuck that guy. I'm good with it. I called myself a Mexican-American when I was little, but Hispanic is easier to say. I dont care if they think I'm Cuban or Puerto Rican who get lumped in with us Mexican Americans. It don't make a shit, our parties are the best. And only Thai food can kick our ass in the food category. 

[washparkhorn 9935]

46 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

awkward bolillos from the Metromess suburbs

I prefer Blue-Eyed Devil.

[F250 28691]

1 hour ago, Pancho said:

I find this interesting because the term Latinx was started by Hispanics (LGBTQ Hispanics).

 

I was also told Hispanics was derogatory. My friend (Mexican from the valley) hates being called that.

I addressed this earlier with the Tim Scott reference.

Identifying as Hispanic sometimes comes off as someone trying to distance themselves from being Mexican which is frowned upon. I don't hear it used as much from San Antonio down to the RGV. Most usually refer to themselves as Mexican.

[F250 28691]

17 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

Fuck that guy. I'm good with it. I called myself a Mexican-American when I was little, but Hispanic is easier to say. I dont care if they think I'm Cuban or Puerto Rican who get lumped in with us Mexican Americans. It don't make a shit, our parties are the best. And only Thai food can kick our ass in the food category. 

Putx.

[F250 28691]

1 hour ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

yeah, hispanic was my go to for a while before someone pointed that out to me.

A long time ago, I heard some older guys arguing over Chicano vs. Hispanic and the older guy who used Chicano said "If you call yourself Hispanic you likely vote Republican." Everyone started laughing and accepted the statement as true.

 

[Tom 2959]

1 hour ago, tantric superman said:

Lotta fucking Spaniards on this site.

 

Right?  It's getting uncomfortable for me, too.

[RDCanecutter 26282]

22 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

I prefer Blue-Eyed Devil.

I better hear a Mr. HongMao pretty damn quick or else I have my chariot horses trample all y'all.

Latinx is not virtue-signaling. It is took-minimum-requirement-of-Spanish-signaling.

BTW, calling Spanish Spanish is pretty damned oppressive and imperialistic. Those Catalans and Basques and Gallegos are just as damned Spanish as the Castilians. You bastards.