Meanwhile, in Jerusalem...

[hpslugga 4044]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Kick a dog, he'll bite you.  If you want to create millions of dogs who remember you kicked them, and are looking for a chance to bite you, Israel is executing the perfect plan for that.

We can look beyond the HORRIFIC irony of a nation state born out of one of the defining genocides in history now acts to preserve itself with acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing (irony is fucking DEAD -- the 20th century killed it, I guess) . . . and just look to whether Israel's approach matches with its PURPORTED goal of a continued peaceful existence.  It really doesn't.  It only matches with a goal of extending conquest of additional land by violence, and accepting that it will suffer violence in return.  Israel is not acting like a state defending itself, and hasn't been for a long-ass time.  It is acting EXACTLY like a state that, knowing it has superior military force, is going to continue to exert its will over a weaker people with violence, taking land and eliminating competition along the way . . . knowing that some level of violent response will continue for generations, because that's what people do when you fucking bomb them.

See the thing is, the one thing that Israel's so-called "supporters" won't literally say is that "the Palestinians have a responsibility to lay down their arms and walk out into the open like ducks." They won't literally say it, but strip away all the bullshit of what they say when condemning this or that rocket attack or whatever and that's what you're invariably left with. They do not believe the Palestinians have any right to defend themselves, even when it comes to throwing rocks at armed (and armored) IDF soldiers that are tasked to maintain a 54-year old military occupation. It's pathetic fanboyism at its absolute worst.

Edited May 18, 2021 by hpslugga

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Kick a dog, he'll bite you.  If you want to create millions of dogs who remember you kicked them, and are looking for a chance to bite you, Israel is executing the perfect plan for that.

We can look beyond the HORRIFIC irony of a nation state born out of one of the defining genocides in history now acts to preserve itself with acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing (irony is fucking DEAD -- the 20th century killed it, I guess) . . . and just look to whether Israel's approach matches with its PURPORTED goal of a continued peaceful existence.  It really doesn't.  It only matches with a goal of extending conquest of additional land by violence, and accepting that it will suffer violence in return.  Israel is not acting like a state defending itself, and hasn't been for a long-ass time.  It is acting EXACTLY like a state that, knowing it has superior military force, is going to continue to exert its will over a weaker people with violence, taking land and eliminating competition along the way . . . knowing that some level of violent response will continue for generations, because that's what people do when you fucking bomb them.

The results from all of human history are in. The argument that, ‘We’re a lot stronger than you so just accept your subjugation and take it or we’ll fuck you up’ will not result in peace. Never has, never will. To expect otherwise is insanity.

Edited May 18, 2021 by WhatTheBuck

[hpslugga 4044]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

The results from all of human history are in. The argument that, ‘We’re a lot stronger than you so just accept your subjugation and take it’ will not result in peace. Never has, never will. To expect otherwise is insanity.

Right, it's not peace, it's "peace on the occupier's terms."

[bad_teammate 13132]

BDS

 

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

1 minute ago, hpslugga said:

Right, it's not peace, it's "peace on the occupier's terms."

They don’t want peace. They just want quiet. 

[MoJames 8241]

So has this issue also become a binary argument across party lines?

[Beantown Express 2.0 6555]

22 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, guys, they're not terrorist ORGANIZATIONS.   They're kind of like clubs, and they do lots of things.  Taxes, roads, community service, libraries, medicare . . . and using violence to accomplish political goals is just one of the things they do!  You wouldn't say the US is a "medicare" organization, or a "road-building organization," would you?  No.  Because those are just PART of what the US does.  See, it's that simple!

Don't argue with the idiot, guys.  Israel good.  Palestinians terrorists.  

Fuck you Brisket.  "I am not saying Israel good.  Palestinians terrorists."  At the same time there are many on this thread saying Israel and the Jews are evil and the poor Palestinians are all good.  That is my issue.  All those suicide bombers and rockets being launched at civilians over the years by certain Palestians (not all Palestinians but groups like Hamas) are evil people.  Netanyahu and his war hawks are evil people.  Yeah, I can both sides this one since both sides aren't innocent in this whole deal and both sides aren't saints either.  I'm not talking the past few weeks but I am talking for the last 70 years.  I am pro Israel but I do believe the Palestinians should have their own country and a two state solution makes sense to me.  The Israelis are wrong for evicting Palestinians and expanding their settlements into Palestinian areas so I do agree that they should cease that shit immediately.  

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

Just now, MoJames said:

So has this issue also become a binary argument across party lines?

No. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

6 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

At the same time there are many on this thread saying Israel and the Jews are evil and the poor Palestinians are all good.

Nope.

What people are focused on is "Palestinians weak. Israel extremely powerful."

[hpslugga 4044]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Nope.

What people are focused on is "Palestinians weak. Israel extremely powerful."

This. And it's funny because the implication in that insipid comment you were quoting is "well they're not all good, so they therefore do not deserve the right to self-determination."

[Brisketexan 104628]

2 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

The Israelis are wrong for evicting Palestinians and expanding their settlements into Palestinian areas so I do agree that they should cease that shit immediately.  

But.  They.  Won't.  They are only doubling down, and using brute force to back it up.

The current Israeli strategy, which is one of open, proud, and shameless warhawking and genocide, guarantees only one thing: more suffering and death.  And as for who I place greater demands on?  I'm gonna say it's the fucking nation state that we support with money and weapons.  If I hand you a gun and you use it to shoot a kid in the head -- and I KNOW you're going to shoot him in the head -- then I'm fucking culpable.  I don't want to be culpable.

When OTHER nation states provide guns to people who they KNOW are going to shoot kids in the head, we call them "state sponsors of terrorism."  I don't want to be a sponsor of shooting kids in the head (I really don't want the US to be doing it directly, either, but that's a different topic).  If I am going to arm you, you best not commit atrocities with the arms I gave you.  Israel is doing so.  Right now.  It's needs to fucking stop.  And we need to stop sending them arms.  Right now.

[Satchel 6908]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

They don’t want peace. They just want quiet. 

Correct. Peace is not the absence of tension. It is the presence of justice. When Israel’s courts paved the way for the evictions of six Palestinian families from a neighborhood in East Jerusalem and allowed Jewish families to move into those homes, they were not giving a nod to peace. They were stoking the fires of injustice.

[lmao 178]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

BDS

 

But..but..people want to fuck me11!1!

[lmao 178]

2 hours ago, MoJames said:

So has this issue also become a binary argument across party lines?

Not really, Biden is as pro-Israel and Zionist as any god-fearing Pub.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

13 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Sounds like Disney should take over Jerusalem and just turn it into a series of rides and Experiences

Enough people get Jerusalem Syndrome as is without additional "imagineering" courtesy of The Mouse. 

I am not a religious man, and this happened hundreds of miles South of Jerusalem, but one day at work on the kibbutz in the desert, I picked up a long plank (maybe about 6 feet) and threw it across the top of my shoulders. I habitually wore a white t-shirt soaked in ice water on my head as a sort of keffiyeh to block out the 120-degree heat...So I pick up this plank and the sun's behind me and it casts a shadow on the Israeli desert floor of me, crucified, wearing a crown of thorns. I kind of squeaked and dropped the plank...collected myself and carried it some other way to the work site. 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by MaybeACoordinator

[cactusflinthead 27594]

 

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

2 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

one day at work on the kibbutz

Communist. 

[Shady Ray 1633]

11 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

BDS

This is the way.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

13 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

When OTHER nation states provide guns to people who they KNOW are going to shoot kids in the head, we call them "state sponsors of terrorism." 

My late father told me that you never point a gun at a person unless you intend to harm them.

 

(I have not sourced this pic, but your comment reminded me of his warning.)

[hpslugga 4044]

13 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

But.  They.  Won't.  They are only doubling down, and using brute force to back it up.

That’s the thing. There’s no such thing as a benevolent military occupation. As there is no such thing, it’s also true that there’s no such thing as a completely voluntary withdrawal from same. The way that this will have to end will be the way that it ended for Indonesia’s occupation of East Timor. That occupation literally ended with just two words from the US state department: game’s over

[TexArcher 37519]

Per Reuters, Lebanon fired four rockets into northern Israel and now Israel is shelling targets in Lebanon.

And "a senior Russian official" has told Israel's ambassador that any actions leading to further civilian casualties in Gaza would be "unacceptable."

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by TexArcher

[Brisketexan 104628]

3 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Per Reuters, Lebanon fired four rockets into northern Israel and now Israel is shelling targets in Lebanon.

And this is ALL what Bibi wanted.  Horrible, far right, corrupt leader in trouble?  WAG THE DOG!

His political troubles are nothing that a good shooting war won't distract from.

[bolverk 29402]

One of the things that has been really remarkable and disconcerting about this go-round is the mob violence and rioting going on within Israel itself among both Jewish and Arab citizens, which seems to be a new development. Here's one example:

 

Mob Violence Against Palestinians in Israel Is Fueled by Groups on WhatsApp

Last Wednesday, a message appeared in a new WhatsApp channel called “Death to the Arabs.” The message urged Israelis to join a mass street brawl against Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Within hours, dozens of other new WhatsApp groups popped up with variations of the same name and message. The groups soon organized a 6 p.m. start time for a clash in Bat Yam, a town on Israel’s coast.

“Together we organize and together we act,” read a message in one of the WhatsApp groups. “Tell your friends to join the group, because here we know how to defend Jewish honor.”

That evening, live scenes aired of black-clad Israelis smashing car windows and roaming the streets of Bat Yam. The mob pulled one man they presumed to be Arab from his car and beat him unconscious. He was hospitalized in serious condition.

The episode was one of dozens across Israel that the authorities have linked to a surge of activity by Jewish extremists on WhatsApp, the encrypted messaging service owned by Facebook. Since violence between Israelis and Palestinians escalated last week, at least 100 new WhatsApp groups have been formed for the express purpose of committing violence against Palestinians, according to an analysis by The New York Times and FakeReporter, an Israeli watchdog group that studies misinformation.

The WhatsApp groups, with names like “The Jewish Guard” and “The Revenge Troops,” have added hundreds of new members a day over the past week, according to The Times’s analysis. The groups, which are in Hebrew, have also been featured on email lists and online message boards used by far-right extremists in Israel.

While social media and messaging apps have been used in the past to spread hate speech and inspire violence, these WhatsApp groups go further, researchers said. That’s because the groups are explicitly planning and executing violent acts against Palestinian citizens of Israel, who make up roughly 20 percent of the population and live largely integrated lives with Jewish neighbors.

Spoiler

 

That is far more specific than past WhatsApp-fueled mob attacks in India, where calls for violence were vague and generally not targeted at individuals or businesses, the researchers said. Even the Stop the Steal groups in the United States that organized the Jan. 6 protests in Washington did not openly direct attacks using social media or messaging apps, they said.

The proliferation of these WhatsApp groups has alarmed Israeli security officials and disinformation researchers. In the groups, attacks have been carefully documented, with members often gloating about taking part in the violence, according to The Times’s review. Some said they were taking revenge for rockets being fired onto Israel from militants in the Gaza Strip, while others cited different grievances. Many solicited names of Arab-owned businesses they could target next.

“It is a perfect storm of people empowered to use their own names and phone numbers to openly call for violence, and having a tool like WhatsApp to organize themselves into mobs,” said Achiya Schatz, director of FakeReporter.

He said his organization had reported many of the new WhatsApp groups to Israeli police, who initially took no action “but now are starting to act and try to prevent the violence.”

Micky Rosenfeld, a spokesman for the Israeli police, said, “Police are tracking social media and monitoring movements on the ground.” He said that while Israelis have been involved in some attacks, they were largely “protecting themselves” against attacks by Palestinian citizens of Israel. He added, “Police investigations are continuing.”

Israeli security officials said law enforcement authorities began monitoring the WhatsApp groups after being alerted by FakeReporter. The police, Mr. Schatz said, believed attacks by the Jewish extremists were inflamed by and organized on the WhatsApp groups.

One official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, added that the police had not seen similar WhatsApp groups forming among Palestinians. Islamist movements, including Hamas, the militant Palestinian organization that controls the Gaza Strip, have long organized and recruited followers on social media but do not plan attacks on the services for fear of being discovered.

A WhatsApp spokeswoman said the messaging service was concerned by the activity from Israeli extremists. She said the company had removed some accounts of people who participated in the groups. WhatsApp cannot read the encrypted messages on its service, she added, but it has acted when accounts were reported to it for violating its terms of service.

“We take action to ban accounts we believe may be involved in causing imminent harm,” she said.

In Israel, WhatsApp has long been used to form groups so people can communicate and share interests or plan school activities. As violence soared between Israel’s military and Palestinian militants in Gaza over the past week, WhatsApp was also one of the platforms where false information about the conflict has spread.

Tensions in the area ran so high that new groups calling for revenge against Palestinians began emerging on WhatsApp and on other messaging services like Telegram. The first WhatsApp groups appeared last Tuesday, Mr. Schatz said. By last Wednesday, his organization had found dozens of the groups.

People can join the groups through a link, many of which are shared within existing WhatsApp groups. Once they have joined one group, other groups are advertised to them.

The groups have since grown steadily in size, Mr. Schatz said. Some have become so big that they have branched off into local chapters that are dedicated to certain cities and towns. To evade detection by WhatsApp, organizers of the groups are urging people to vet new members, he said.

On Telegram, Israelis have formed roughly 20 channels to commit and plan violence against Palestinians, according to FakeReporter. Much of the content and messaging in those groups imitates what is in the WhatsApp channels.

On one new WhatsApp group that The Times reviewed, “The Revenge Troops,” people recently shared instructions for how to build Molotov cocktails and makeshift explosives. The group asked its 400 members to also provide addresses of Arab-owned businesses that could be targeted.

In another group with just under 100 members, people shared photos of guns, knives and other weapons as they discussed engaging in street combat in mixed Jewish-Arab cities. Another new WhatsApp group was named “The unapologetic right-wing group.”

After participating in attacks, members of the groups posted photos of their exploits and encouraged others to mimic them.

“We destroyed them, we left them in pieces,” said one person in “The Revenge Troops” WhatsApp group, alongside a photo showing smashed car windows. In a different group, a video was uploaded of black-clad Jewish youths stopping cars on an unnamed street and asking drivers if they were Jewish or Arab.

We beat “the enemy car-by-car,” said a comment posted underneath the video, using an expletive.

Over the weekend, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel visited Lod, a mixed Jewish-Arab city in central Israel that has been the scene of recent clashes.

“There is no greater threat now than these riots, and it is essential to bring back law and order,” said Mr. Netanyahu.

Within some of the WhatsApp groups, Mr. Netanyahu’s calls for peace were ridiculed.

“Our government is too weak to do what is necessary, so we take it into our own hands,” wrote one person in a WhatsApp group dedicated to city of Ramle in central Israel. “Now that we have organized, they can’t stop us.”

 

 

[wildcat09 29258]

27 minutes ago, bolverk said:

One of the things that has been really remarkable and disconcerting about this go-round is the mob violence and rioting going on within Israel itself among both Jewish and Arab citizens, which seems to be a new development. Here's one example:

 

Mob Violence Against Palestinians in Israel Is Fueled by Groups on WhatsApp

Last Wednesday, a message appeared in a new WhatsApp channel called “Death to the Arabs.” The message urged Israelis to join a mass street brawl against Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Within hours, dozens of other new WhatsApp groups popped up with variations of the same name and message. The groups soon organized a 6 p.m. start time for a clash in Bat Yam, a town on Israel’s coast.

“Together we organize and together we act,” read a message in one of the WhatsApp groups. “Tell your friends to join the group, because here we know how to defend Jewish honor.”

That evening, live scenes aired of black-clad Israelis smashing car windows and roaming the streets of Bat Yam. The mob pulled one man they presumed to be Arab from his car and beat him unconscious. He was hospitalized in serious condition.

The episode was one of dozens across Israel that the authorities have linked to a surge of activity by Jewish extremists on WhatsApp, the encrypted messaging service owned by Facebook. Since violence between Israelis and Palestinians escalated last week, at least 100 new WhatsApp groups have been formed for the express purpose of committing violence against Palestinians, according to an analysis by The New York Times and FakeReporter, an Israeli watchdog group that studies misinformation.

The WhatsApp groups, with names like “The Jewish Guard” and “The Revenge Troops,” have added hundreds of new members a day over the past week, according to The Times’s analysis. The groups, which are in Hebrew, have also been featured on email lists and online message boards used by far-right extremists in Israel.

While social media and messaging apps have been used in the past to spread hate speech and inspire violence, these WhatsApp groups go further, researchers said. That’s because the groups are explicitly planning and executing violent acts against Palestinian citizens of Israel, who make up roughly 20 percent of the population and live largely integrated lives with Jewish neighbors.

  Hide contents

 

That is far more specific than past WhatsApp-fueled mob attacks in India, where calls for violence were vague and generally not targeted at individuals or businesses, the researchers said. Even the Stop the Steal groups in the United States that organized the Jan. 6 protests in Washington did not openly direct attacks using social media or messaging apps, they said.

The proliferation of these WhatsApp groups has alarmed Israeli security officials and disinformation researchers. In the groups, attacks have been carefully documented, with members often gloating about taking part in the violence, according to The Times’s review. Some said they were taking revenge for rockets being fired onto Israel from militants in the Gaza Strip, while others cited different grievances. Many solicited names of Arab-owned businesses they could target next.

“It is a perfect storm of people empowered to use their own names and phone numbers to openly call for violence, and having a tool like WhatsApp to organize themselves into mobs,” said Achiya Schatz, director of FakeReporter.

He said his organization had reported many of the new WhatsApp groups to Israeli police, who initially took no action “but now are starting to act and try to prevent the violence.”

Micky Rosenfeld, a spokesman for the Israeli police, said, “Police are tracking social media and monitoring movements on the ground.” He said that while Israelis have been involved in some attacks, they were largely “protecting themselves” against attacks by Palestinian citizens of Israel. He added, “Police investigations are continuing.”

Israeli security officials said law enforcement authorities began monitoring the WhatsApp groups after being alerted by FakeReporter. The police, Mr. Schatz said, believed attacks by the Jewish extremists were inflamed by and organized on the WhatsApp groups.

One official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, added that the police had not seen similar WhatsApp groups forming among Palestinians. Islamist movements, including Hamas, the militant Palestinian organization that controls the Gaza Strip, have long organized and recruited followers on social media but do not plan attacks on the services for fear of being discovered.

A WhatsApp spokeswoman said the messaging service was concerned by the activity from Israeli extremists. She said the company had removed some accounts of people who participated in the groups. WhatsApp cannot read the encrypted messages on its service, she added, but it has acted when accounts were reported to it for violating its terms of service.

“We take action to ban accounts we believe may be involved in causing imminent harm,” she said.

In Israel, WhatsApp has long been used to form groups so people can communicate and share interests or plan school activities. As violence soared between Israel’s military and Palestinian militants in Gaza over the past week, WhatsApp was also one of the platforms where false information about the conflict has spread.

Tensions in the area ran so high that new groups calling for revenge against Palestinians began emerging on WhatsApp and on other messaging services like Telegram. The first WhatsApp groups appeared last Tuesday, Mr. Schatz said. By last Wednesday, his organization had found dozens of the groups.

People can join the groups through a link, many of which are shared within existing WhatsApp groups. Once they have joined one group, other groups are advertised to them.

The groups have since grown steadily in size, Mr. Schatz said. Some have become so big that they have branched off into local chapters that are dedicated to certain cities and towns. To evade detection by WhatsApp, organizers of the groups are urging people to vet new members, he said.

On Telegram, Israelis have formed roughly 20 channels to commit and plan violence against Palestinians, according to FakeReporter. Much of the content and messaging in those groups imitates what is in the WhatsApp channels.

On one new WhatsApp group that The Times reviewed, “The Revenge Troops,” people recently shared instructions for how to build Molotov cocktails and makeshift explosives. The group asked its 400 members to also provide addresses of Arab-owned businesses that could be targeted.

In another group with just under 100 members, people shared photos of guns, knives and other weapons as they discussed engaging in street combat in mixed Jewish-Arab cities. Another new WhatsApp group was named “The unapologetic right-wing group.”

After participating in attacks, members of the groups posted photos of their exploits and encouraged others to mimic them.

“We destroyed them, we left them in pieces,” said one person in “The Revenge Troops” WhatsApp group, alongside a photo showing smashed car windows. In a different group, a video was uploaded of black-clad Jewish youths stopping cars on an unnamed street and asking drivers if they were Jewish or Arab.

We beat “the enemy car-by-car,” said a comment posted underneath the video, using an expletive.

Over the weekend, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel visited Lod, a mixed Jewish-Arab city in central Israel that has been the scene of recent clashes.

“There is no greater threat now than these riots, and it is essential to bring back law and order,” said Mr. Netanyahu.

Within some of the WhatsApp groups, Mr. Netanyahu’s calls for peace were ridiculed.

“Our government is too weak to do what is necessary, so we take it into our own hands,” wrote one person in a WhatsApp group dedicated to city of Ramle in central Israel. “Now that we have organized, they can’t stop us.”

 

 

This is...interesting, because there's similar reporting out about this from other outlets using the same source (the Israeli disinformation watchdog group Fake Reporter) and from the other outlets we know that the Times omitted a really sensational quote:

Quote

"We saw a ticking time bomb - groups specifically targeting Arab civilians of Israel, including incitement, weapon-hoarding, information on specific Arab-owned businesses and more.

"Groups began organising to go to Ramla, Lod, Bat Yam, Afula, Haifa, Tiberias, Jerusalem, Beersheba, and others - in the stated goal of attacking Arabs," they wrote.

Screenshots of various far-right groups chats included someone writing: "Today we are Nazis," and another writing, "today we are shahids", using the Arabic term for "martyr".

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by wildcat09

[Brian Fantana 6668]

18 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

yes

Piece of shit.

[hpslugga 4044]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Piece of shit.

Yeah pretty hard to recover once one identifies oneself as a person who justifies the disproportionate murder of children. I mean I suppose it’s possible, in the same way that it’s possible for a quadriplegic to climb Mount Everest.

[Satchel 6908]

Today’s reporting is indicating that Biden is applying greater pressure on Bibi to stop his bombing campaign that is clearly designed to facilitate the formation of a ruling party. 
Again, pay more attention to what the stakeholders do and less to what they say.

[wildcat09 29258]

I don't see how someone who explicitly supports the politically-motivated murder of children can say they don't support terrorism. 

[pacman 7330]

 

[pacman 7330]

 

[Mole 4320]

21 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

It's a bit more complicated than that. Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians and militaristic policies of Israel doesn't represent all Jews. Now, to your point, the key to peace would be keeping the war mongers on both sides from shitting all over the peace process. 

Three state solution: Israel, Palestine, and Thunderdome.

[UpperWestside 6136]

20 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Kick a dog, he'll bite you.  If you want to create millions of dogs who remember you kicked them, and are looking for a chance to bite you, Israel is executing the perfect plan for that.

We can look beyond the HORRIFIC irony of a nation state born out of one of the defining genocides in history now acts to preserve itself with acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing (irony is fucking DEAD -- the 20th century killed it, I guess) . . . and just look to whether Israel's approach matches with its PURPORTED goal of a continued peaceful existence.  It really doesn't.  It only matches with a goal of extending conquest of additional land by violence, and accepting that it will suffer violence in return.  Israel is not acting like a state defending itself, and hasn't been for a long-ass time.  It is acting EXACTLY like a state that, knowing it has superior military force, is going to continue to exert its will over a weaker people with violence, taking land and eliminating competition along the way . . . knowing that some level of violent response will continue for generations, because that's what people do when you fucking bomb them.

I look at this and just wonder what all of the Jews who perished in the Holocaust would think if they saw what their fellow Jews are now doing to a largely defenseless population. I think Netanyahu might need to swing by Auschwitz or Bergen-Belsen for a reminder of where the Jews were as a people less than 80 years ago. 

I want to say that Netanyahu is not thinking about the unintended consequence of creating a new generation of Palestinians that will grow up to have anger and hatred towards Israel. I think a more cynical view of the situation, one that I do not share and would hope is not in any way reality, is that he is alright with creating another generation that feels anger towards Israel because it keeps the conflict going and in turn gives the person who is Prime Minister at that time another reason to continue to shrink the land that Palestinians have to live on. 

[MoJames 8241]

Three state solution: Israel, Palestine, and Thunderdome.

[hpslugga 4044]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

I don't see how someone who explicitly supports the politically-motivated murder of children can say they don't support terrorism. 

It’s a classic example of state hypocrisy: it’s terrorism when they do it, counter terror when we do it. Why? Because they’re them and we’re us.

15 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I look at this and just wonder what all of the Jews who perished in the Holocaust would think if they saw what their fellow Jews are now doing to a largely defenseless population. I think Netanyahu might need to swing by Auschwitz or Bergen-Belsen for a reminder of where the Jews were as a people less than 80 years ago. 

The thing is those types are so jaded in their thinking that they believe what they’re doing to the Palestinians will prevent another Holocaust against the Jews. That’s one of the ugly secrets behind the oft repeated argument about “the grand mufti of Jerusalem met with Hitler!!!” It’s a way to connect the Palestinians to the actual Holocaust and establish a ridiculous slippery slope from that all the way down to shooting children to prevent a repeat of that shit.

[Jiggy-Z 3432]

The Israel/Palestine issue just never seems to go away.  They have been at it in its present configuration for almost 75 years and historically for much longer.

I have read this tread in its entirety and am more confused than when I started.

I guess if I had one question for those of you that are knowledgeable on this it would be:  If you could go back to 1947, and there was going to be a Jewish nation state in Jerusalem, how would it have been done differently to have avoided most of the problems since then?  I'll hang up and listen.

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

27 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

The Israel/Palestine issue just never seems to go away.  They have been at it in its present configuration for almost 75 years and historically for much longer.

I have read this tread in its entirety and am more confused than when I started.

I guess if I had one question for those of you that are knowledgeable on this it would be:  If you could go back to 1947, and there was going to be a Jewish nation state in Jerusalem, how would it have been done differently to have avoided most of the problems since then?  I'll hang up and listen.

There’s no reason to have a Jewish nation state. There’s no reason to have a Christian nation state. There’s no reason to have an Islamic nation state. 

[wildcat09 29258]

10 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

There’s no reason to have a Jewish nation state. There’s no reason to have a Christian nation state. There’s no reason to have an Islamic nation state. 

There's definitely not any good reason to have one of them that has exclusive sovereignty over Jerusalem. 

[hpslugga 4044]

1 hour ago, Jiggy-Z said:

The Israel/Palestine issue just never seems to go away.  They have been at it in its present configuration for almost 75 years and historically for much longer.

I have read this tread in its entirety and am more confused than when I started.

I guess if I had one question for those of you that are knowledgeable on this it would be:  If you could go back to 1947, and there was going to be a Jewish nation state in Jerusalem, how would it have been done differently to have avoided most of the problems since then?  I'll hang up and listen.

First I assume you mean a Jewish nation state with Jerusalem as it’s capital, correct?

If it were up to me I’d scoff at the entire premise because nation states in general are an abomination, and that’s particularly true with ethnic states.

That being said, I’ll answer: I would spare no effort to insure the Palestinians that the expulsion crap that was inbuilt into Zionism would not be an issue during the drafting of the partition resolution. The resolution did relatively little, if anything, to relieve those very real anxieties that were rampant about that exact subject. I would also urge the Israelis to refrain from engaging in same. That way if it did happen, literally no one would come to Israel’s aid and that 1967 shit never happens.

Edited May 19, 2021 by hpslugga

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

*ensure

[elfenix 34171]

1 hour ago, Jiggy-Z said:

and historically for much longer.

this is incorrect.  it really is only about 80 years old.  historically speaking jews and muslims lived about as harmoniously together as two different groups ever have

Edited May 19, 2021 by elfenix

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

2 minutes ago, elfenix said:

this is incorrect.  it really is only about 80 years old.  historically speaking jews and muslims lived about as harmoniously together as two different groups ever have

I blame Winston Churchill.  Fat fucker.

[elfenix 34171]

Just now, Judge Roybeanbag said:

I blame Winston Churchill.  Fat fucker.

it's amazing how much shit winston churchill fucked up.  he's arguably responsible for the soviet union and the great depression.

Edited May 19, 2021 by elfenix

[wildcat09 29258]

17 minutes ago, elfenix said:

it's amazing how much shit winston churchill fucked up.  he's arguably responsible for the soviet union and the great depression.

Also a famine or two in India.

[Nivek 16861]

Never never never never give up.

[lmao 178]

On 5/16/2021 at 7:05 PM, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

So you believe Israeli military is sitting there saying,” how do we kill Palestinian civilians?.  Hmmm there is a school, lets blow it up so we can kill a bunch of kids”.   That is not what is happening and if you believe that you are a stooge.  There are civilian casualties and it is horrible but pretty sure that isn’t their goal.  If it was their goal they could end this real quick and kill them all (once again that would be horrible and I would not want that to happen.  Maybe if Hamas stopped hiding with civilians it wouldn’t be an issue.  

 

[MoJames 8241]

39 minutes ago, elfenix said:

it's amazing how much shit winston churchill fucked up.  he's arguably responsible for the soviet union and the great depression.

What should I read to understand this statement.

[elfenix 34171]

3 minutes ago, MoJames said:

What should I read to understand this statement.

sov union: at the outbreak of WWI there were two turkish battleships being built in english docks (most countries didn't have the technical capability to build big warships).  they cost an absolute fortune.  churchill, then first lord of the admiralty, basically stole them.  at the same time, germany "gifted" a couple of warships to the turks.  those two things helped lead to the ottoman empire joining in on the side of the central powers: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anecdotes-from-the-archive/battleships-and-diplomacy-1914/

the turks then closed the bosporus and dardanelles to russian shipping.  that help collapse the russian economy, leading to the conditions for the revolution and, ultimately, the soviet union.

 

great depression: i'll just quote the paragraph from wikipedia:

Quote

The Bank of England and others were calling for the UK to return to the gold standard, an idea Churchill initially opposed. He consulted various economists, the majority of whom endorsed the change; among the few who opposed it was John Maynard Keynes. Churchill ultimately relented and agreed to the measure, after which he became its supporter.^[8][9] In his first budget, he controversially announced the return to the gold standard at its 1914 parity of £1=$4.86.^[9] The principal opponent of the proposal was the economist John Maynard Keynes who argued that the measure would lead to a world depression.^[10] Keynes later wrote a pamphlet entitled The Economic Consequences of Mr Churchill. Jenkins has pointed out that, as Churchill was a reluctant convert to gold, it is unfair to blame him entirely for the consequences, but it was in the end his decision to implement the measure and he was the one person who could have refused to do so.^[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill_as_Chancellor_of_the_Exchequer

[hpslugga 4044]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

*ensure

Yeah damnit I noticed that well after the limit to edit expired.

[bad_teammate 13132]

7 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Yeah pretty hard to recover once one identifies oneself as a person who justifies the disproportionate murder of children. I mean I suppose it’s possible, in the same way that it’s possible for a quadriplegic to climb Mount Everest.

Well if you're anti-Arab and don't consider them real humans it's a lot easier.

Which is the case for a ton of people in America.

[hpslugga 4044]

3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Well if you're anti-Arab and don't consider them real humans it's a lot easier.

Which is the case for a ton of people in America.

That’s because a ton of people read Ayn Rand. As John Oliver said, how is that still even a thing?