Meanwhile, in Jerusalem...

[DonkeyCigars 144]

40 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Again, that has absolutely nothing to do with the law. That prediction/hypothetical is about as useful as an asshole on an elbow.

Okay-- not sure I follow you here. What law are you invoking (and why)?

[Brisketexan 104628]

10 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Assimilation or diaspora. Same as it's always been when you lose a war and land.

A recipe for continued insurgency and violence in the current world.

How about sticking with a brokered agreement and keeping the peace, and leaving the opposing territories intact and functional?  There's a reason the Marshall Plan is praised to this day.  Not giving your enemy a chance to become your former enemy, and/or a chance to live a peaceful and prosperous future, is a recipe for foreverwar.

That recipe is being executed to perfection in the levant.

[lmao 178]

3 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Just curious but what do you think would happen if Israel wasn’t an apartheid state?  Not saying I agree with the way they are doing things with the Palestinians but if the Jews let the Arabs take full control of Israel and the government how does that end for the jews living there?  I am guessing that most Jews that look back at history will assume it doesn’t end well for them which kind of means they have to remain that apartheid state in order to exist. 

From the ADL:

"With historically high birth rates among the Palestinians, and a possible influx of Palestinian refugees and their descendants now living around the world, Jews would quickly be a minority within a bi-national state, thus likely ending any semblance of equal representation and protections. In this situation, the Jewish population would be increasingly politically – and potentially physically – vulnerable. It is unrealistic and unacceptable to expect the State of Israel to voluntarily subvert its own sovereign existence and nationalist identity and become a vulnerable minority within what was once its own territory."

This is literally the "Great Replacement" "White Genocide" conspiracy theory. 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

A recipe for continued insurgency and violence in the current world.

How about sticking with a brokered agreement and keeping the peace, and leaving the opposing territories intact and functional?  There's a reason the Marshall Plan is praised to this day.  Not giving your enemy a chance to become your former enemy, and/or a chance to live a peaceful and prosperous future, is a recipe for foreverwar.

That recipe is being executed to perfection in the levant.

Wouldn't it be Hamas/Palestine not sticking with the brokered agreement, in this case?

I think, like you, the most efficient and elegant solution is to broker an agreement peacefully and then have everyone operate within the framework, but obviously war exists and sometimes a group of people or a nation state starts feeling themselves and thinks they either have a just cause or the dogs to win and expand, and that seems like the case here.

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

not verified, but holy shit if true:

 

[cam4mav 770]

 

 

This account is basically live streaming updates. A ton of shit going on. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by cam4mav

[cam4mav 770]

12 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

not verified, but holy shit if true:

Apparently IDF was calling residents an hour before? Then they have a thing called a roof knock where they literally have like a firework sized thing blow up on the roof, "knocking it", as a final warning before doing the full strike?

I had no idea that was a thing. What a fucked situation over there. 

 

This guy is just watching twitter and showing things. No clue if he leans one way or another, seems pretty neutral so far

 

[David Dennison 18659]

1 hour ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Assimilation or diaspora. Same as it's always been when you lose a war and land.

Israel won't allow Arabs to assimilate.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

51 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

 

wow. that is incisive.

[MissingInAction 24824]

Fuck israel.

[bad_teammate 13132]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Israel won't allow Arabs to assimilate.

You will get no honest response to this.

[bad_teammate 13132]

11 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

Fuck israel.

100%

Ethnostates are an intolerable concept.

[AnTiM 1659]

2 hours ago, lmao said:

From the ADL:

"With historically high birth rates among the Palestinians, and a possible influx of Palestinian refugees and their descendants now living around the world, Jews would quickly be a minority within a bi-national state, thus likely ending any semblance of equal representation and protections. In this situation, the Jewish population would be increasingly politically – and potentially physically – vulnerable. It is unrealistic and unacceptable to expect the State of Israel to voluntarily subvert its own sovereign existence and nationalist identity and become a vulnerable minority within what was once its own territory."

This is literally the "Great Replacement" "White Genocide" conspiracy theory. 

Is that last line something like "La Reconquista"?

[Blotto 23434]

 

Crazy that people watch that shit going on overhead.  

[Rip76 4914]

1 minute ago, Blotto said:

 

Crazy that people watch that shit going on overhead.  

That’s bad ass.

[Guest Lobo]

It's funny because people trying to harm Israel are fucking stupid.  

['stache 21774]

"My sky daddy is better than your sky daddy."

I'll never understand killing for something intangible that most people inherit by the lottery of birth.

[Asithappens 974]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Israel won't allow Arabs to assimilate.

Should they? Even if the result of that is a Jewish minority in Israel? Maybe. 

About the only group more incompetent and ham-handed than the Israelis in this mess is the Palestinians. 

At least the Israeli jews weren't celebrating in the streets when 9/11 happened. Can't say the same for the Palestinians. If the US has to pick a side over there....

[bad_teammate 13132]

10 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Should they? Even if the result of that is a Jewish minority in Israel? Maybe. 

About the only group more incompetent and ham-handed than the Israelis in this mess is the Palestinians. 

At least the Israeli jews weren't celebrating in the streets when 9/11 happened. Can't say the same for the Palestinians. If the US has to pick a side over there....

Just say "I like it when Arabs and/or Muslims die" and get on with it.

[Guest Lobo]

25 minutes ago, 'stache said:

"My sky daddy is better than your sky daddy."

I'll never understand killing for something intangible that most people inherit by the lottery of birth.

The religion part is laughable.  The land part is real.  The death part is tragic.  The Israeli side is valiant.  

Edited May 11, 2021 by Lobo

[Asithappens 974]

25 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Just say "I like it when Arabs and/or Muslims die" and get on with it.

I don't know how you get that.

But I will say that I don't like it when Americans die. And I don't like it when other groups celebrate those deaths.

[Mole 4320]

Having spent a few weeks over there a few years back, I’m something of a foreign policy expert. The wealth and opportunity gap between Palestinian and Israeli controlled areas is extreme.

I can’t imagine growing up on the Palestinian side of the wall and not learning to hate Israelis. I also can’t imagine growing up with the constant threat of Hamas shooting rockets at me and not learning to hate Palestinians.

That there isn’t more violence is a testament to our shared humanity. I don’t know the answer to this perpetual problem, but I’m pretty sure there isn’t a good one.

[Anastasis 23394]

15 minutes ago, Lobo said:

The religion part is laughable.  The land part is real.  The death part is tragic.  The Israeli side is valiant.  

Nobody gives a fuck about sky daddy when your house is getting bulldozed and your means of supporting your family is getting torched. 

[CooterBrown 17913]

There’s no version of this story that doesn’t end with Israel getting wiped out.

Just hurry the fuck up with it so we don’t have to hear about it any longer.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

You will get no honest response to this.

Assimilate or Diaspora. Those are the two choices and options when you are weak and/or lose wars and land; same as it’s always been for the history of mankind. And you don’t want to assimilate to the Israeli standard then you are free to go start a website somewhere else, pilgrim.

[Asithappens 974]

1 hour ago, CooterBrown said:

There’s no version of this story that doesn’t end with Israel getting wiped out.
 

That's a really scary comment b/c I don't think the US will allow that. So if Israel goes down so do we. 

Which I don't think will happen.

[Anastasis 23394]

2 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

So if Israel goes down so do we. 

[Guest Lobo]

I think people grossly underestimate how many other very loyal, very serious friends and allies that Israel has.  It's not just a few dozen neo-cons and defense contractors in the United States keeping Israel safe.  It's an intricately viable and dedicated network of gravely serious supporters.  All of whom have one thing in common.  They all came to the same earnest and compelling truth 70 years ago.  And are never going back.  Ever.  Not in this life.  Or the next.  

[Anastasis 23394]

Western powers totally fucked up the entire region. So I guess if we go down with the ship based on the arbitrary lines we drew in the sand, it would be fitting. 

[Anastasis 23394]

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

They all came to the same earnest and compelling truth 70 years ago.

And that truth...

[Paul Wesley 3277]

2 hours ago, 'stache said:

I'll never understand killing for something intangible that most people inherit by the lottery of birth.

How about tattooing telephone area codes on your face?  

I mean, you gotta stand for something in this world, right?

[Anastasis 23394]

1 minute ago, Paul Wesley said:

How about tattooing telephone area codes on your face?  

I mean, you gotta stand for something in this world, right?

[Serak The Preparer 3424]

Just now, Anastasis said:

Hey, it's just his way of showing love for the folks back home.

[bad_teammate 13132]

12 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Assimilate or Diaspora. Those are the two choices and options when you are weak and/or lose wars and land; same as it’s always been for the history of mankind. And you don’t want to assimilate to the Israeli standard then you are free to go start a website somewhere else, pilgrim.

As I said, he would get no honest response to the flatly true statement that Arabs are not allowed to assimilate in Israel's expanding territory.

But this either/or option of yours is, of course, total bullshit. There is always "fight back".

You need to just admit that you want Israel's ethnostate to succeed and that you want the Palestinians to just die off to let it happen.

[Paul Wesley 3277]

Yeah, Reggie definitely popularized it (though he wasn't going to actually tattoo his moneymaker).

Telephone area codes are still about the silliest fucking thing I can think of to be tribal about.

[Guest Lobo]

You've never battled for a 212 instead of a 646 have you?  

[bad_teammate 13132]

What if you have hoes in various different ones?

 

[staboner 4959]

1 hour ago, CooterBrown said:

There’s no version of this story that doesn’t end with Israel getting wiped out.

Just hurry the fuck up with it so we don’t have to hear about it any longer.

yeah, been my view for 20+ years. got sick of hearing about it on the McNeil and Lehrer fucking show my father watched every gd sunday

and by no means do i care for the destruction of anyone obviously. its just sheer numbers. lots will die but the world will always even itself back out. 

humans are arrogant as fuck. walls, lines, territories, whatever. all dumb. all the the time.

[staboner 4959]

25 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Western powers totally fucked up the entire region. So I guess if we go down with the ship based on the arbitrary lines we drew in the sand, it would be fitting. 

oil age gotta go out with a bang my G. just hope its a regular, pre 1940s kinda bang bang

[High Plains Drifter 10977]

3 hours ago, Blotto said:

 

Crazy that people watch that shit going on overhead.  

 

[Bookman 4610]

Maybe we should make it a U.S. Territory and ship a lot of Oklahomans and Floridians there.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

As I said, he would get no honest response to the flatly true statement that Arabs are not allowed to assimilate in Israel's expanding territory.

But this either/or option of yours is, of course, total bullshit. There is always "fight back".

You need to just admit that you want Israel's ethnostate to succeed and that you want the Palestinians to just die off to let it happen.

True. But I covered that. You must have missed it. I said, if you have lost a war and/or land, you have those immediate options. That's what being on the losing side generally means-- you don't get to dictate your options and you are generally in a dilemma between two (or more) suboptimal options. Like I said, that is until you feel your cause just again and/or have the dogs to mount another go at it, if you want to "fight back".

Anyways, not sure how I am not honestly responding. I believe Israel would be cool with Arabs assimilating, as long as we are talking about the same definition of assimilation, which of course means to fold into the Judea way of doing things. If that is unacceptable because the Palestinians are proud or faithful or in some other way are incorrigible to the conquering army's way, then they've rejected the offer of assimilation and can pilgrimage somewhere else. Them's the breaks for not being a winner, at that given time. 

Or as you rightly suggested, they can fight back and try to win. Right? Is that not honest?

As to your last point, I freely admit I want Israel to succeed. I don't want Palestinians to needlessly die and I'd think the practical thing would be to not put yourself in a position to war and die against a greater force, but I understand why they feel impelled. I'd probably feel the same way if I were a Palestinian.

Edited May 12, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[Anastasis 23394]

 

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

What if you have hoes in various different ones?

 

 

 

[hpslugga 4044]

7 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Okay-- not sure I follow you here. What law are you invoking (and why)?

The totality of relevant international law.

-Article 2 of the UN Charter: “All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.”

-Article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”

-UN Resolution 242 Preamble: “Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security”

And why am I invoking it? Because that’s, at least nominally speaking, how international relations work in the real world. What you’re talking about speaks nothing to that. You’re talking about the “might makes right” falderal that created this nightmare in the first place.

Edited May 12, 2021 by hpslugga

[DonkeyCigars 144]

32 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

The totality of relevant international law.

-Article 2 of the UN Charter: “All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.”

-Article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”

-UN Resolution 242 Preamble: “Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security”

And why am I invoking it? Because that’s, at least nominally speaking, how international relations work in the real world. What you’re talking about speaks nothing to that. You’re talking about the “might makes right” falderal that created this nightmare in the first place.

I see, you think I was trying to advise or give guidance within the framework of the law as opposed to commenting on extrajudicial ways to settle this once and for all (again).

You sound like you are well learned, or at least well-interested, in international and NGO law and politics, so reframing the conversation around your interests, let me ask you and learn from you:

Is it lawful according to UN Charter you cite for Hamas to lob rockets at Israel? Are there sections of the law in the UN Charter that outline how to engage in Jus Ad Bellum or Jus in Bello? I'm curious who has the moral high ground here, both on the record and in your opinion.

Edited May 12, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[bad_teammate 13132]

9 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I said, if you have lost a war and/or land, you have those immediate options. That's what being on the losing side generally means-- you don't get to dictate your options and you are generally in a dilemma between two (or more) suboptimal options. Like I said, that is until you feel your cause just again and/or have the dogs to mount another go at it, if you want to "fight back".

That's exactly what you're seeing right now. Fighting back.

And your response to it is "no no no no, this isn't fair, you either have to assimilate or leave!"

Quote

Anyways, not sure how I am not honestly responding. I believe Israel would be cool with Arabs assimilating, as long as we are talking about the same definition of assimilation, which of course means to fold into the Judea way of doing things.

Which means... what?

You can "believe" what you want because it conforms to your desired worldview, but that's all you're working with right now, a desire to believe.

Israel is an ethnostate.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6555]

I hate to agree with that Donkey dude but many of you on here miss the point of this whole issue.  Israel’s goal is not to destroy the Palestinians.  The Palestinian goal is to destroy Israel and take it back as their own.  Let’s look at our great state of Texas.  Many years ago this was Mexico and they lost a war and it became the Republic of Texas and then joined the United States.  What if today Mexico decided it wanted Texas back because it is really theirs and said their ultimate goal was to destroy all the Texans living here.   What if they started lobbing rockets into El Paso and San Antonio and Houston or sending suicide bombers into those cities?  I am pretty sure we wouldn’t as a country just sit back and say, “hey, maybe they should get their land back.  Everybody in TX vacate their homes and move to OK so Mexico can have their territory back”.  

This is the same as if the Native Americans demanded the US get off their land and give it back to them or any number of peoples over the last 1000 years who have lost land during war.  

The Jews have been persecuted everywhere they have lived in this world so when they were finally given some land to live on I kind of understand why they don’t want to let a group of people who’s goal is to destroy Israel and the Jews to have power in their country.

Not saying Israel is handling this situation the best way but those of you that think of it as big bad Israel versus these poor little Palestinians are extremely misguided.  Also, if the West Bank and Gaza is so horrible why don’t those people just move to Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc...  Oh, that’s right, those countries won’t let them in and don’t want them either.  Interesting isn’t it.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

37 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

That's exactly what you're seeing right now. Fighting back.

And your response to it is "no no no no, this isn't fair, you either have to assimilate or leave!"

Which means... what?

You can "believe" what you want because it conforms to your desired worldview, but that's all you're working with right now, a desire to believe.

Israel is an ethnostate.

As an aside and setting to one side that they do not wish to go, how are the residents supposed to leave? Didn't nearby countries prohibit them seeking admittance?

Edited May 12, 2021 by Mrs Whiggins
nvm, Beantown answered the question regarding other countries.

[F250 28691]

9 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I hate to agree with that Donkey dude but many of you on here miss the point of this whole issue.  Israel’s goal is not to destroy the Palestinians.  The Palestinian goal is to destroy Israel and take it back as their own.  Let’s look at our great state of Texas.  Many years ago this was Mexico and they lost a war and it became the Republic of Texas and then joined the United States.  What if today Mexico decided it wanted Texas back because it is really theirs and said their ultimate goal was to destroy all the Texans living here.   What if they started lobbing rockets into El Paso and San Antonio and Houston or sending suicide bombers into those cities?  I am pretty sure we wouldn’t as a country just sit back and say, “hey, maybe they should get their land back.  Everybody in TX vacate their homes and move to OK so Mexico can have their territory back”.  

This is the same as if the Native Americans demanded the US get off their land and give it back to them or any number of peoples over the last 1000 years who have lost land during war.  

The Jews have been persecuted everywhere they have lived in this world so when they were finally given some land to live on I kind of understand why they don’t want to let a group of people who’s goal is to destroy Israel and the Jews to have power in their country.

Not saying Israel is handling this situation the best way but those of you that think of it as big bad Israel versus these poor little Palestinians are extremely misguided.  Also, if the West Bank and Gaza is so horrible why don’t those people just move to Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc...  Oh, that’s right, those countries won’t let them in and don’t want them either.  Interesting isn’t it.

The Mexico comparison works but you need to go back further in time to when the U.S. expanded it's territory into Mexico by force and occupied Mexico with the U.S. military. Of course there was a lot of fighting a long the border too. Extra judicial killing and shit. Similarly the U.S. government treated the Mexicans on the U.S. side as second-class citizens just like the Israelis treat Israeli-Arabs.

Yeah, your point makes sense but not the way you intended.