Meanwhile, in Jerusalem...

[GW Hayduke 1952]

10 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

It is being stated that Israel purposely kills civilian Palestinians to make a point.  I don’t agree with that theory.

You are putting too much weight on intention.  Intention doesn't matter.  Results do.  True intentions are rarely stated. What were the stated US intentions going into Iraq?  What were the stated Nazi intentions going into Poland?  

The current conflict has killed 192 in gaza including 58 children.  It is unacceptable for Israel to kill children - even if killing children wasn't the "point."   Israel's use of arabs as human shields was unacceptable even if the "point" was not to endanger arabs (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/israel).  

The issue is that the totality of the evidence - civil rights abuses, crimes against humanity, disproportionate civilian deaths, a system designed to propagate an ethnically clean state, a system designed to expand that ethnically clean state, the continuation of bombardment even after calls for truces - make clear that dehumanization and apartheid are being conducted by the State of Israel whether those intentions are stated or not.   

10 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Yeah, yeah, ethno state/apartheid but what happens if the Palestinians did take control of Israel?

There have always been supporters of and reasons to support atrocious events in history.  Folks rationalized slavery in the US for reasons.  The south african apartheid was worth it from some people for some reasons.  Hitler had his reasons to go into Poland.  The US had reasons to otherthrow Sadam.  The presence of reasons doesn't automatically justify actions if the actions are inappropriate.  History will see the Apartheid by Israel.  People see it now.  

[TwiceHorn 31283]

55 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I have never been there but I believe Tel Aviv and other areas have become pretty nice cities and there are nice beaches on the Med Sea.  

Well, yeah.  The state of Israel has worked wonders with the territory.  It has become a beautiful and productive country because of the monomaniacal efforts of the Jews.

You could say there wasn't anything worth fighting for until Israel was created.

But the creation of Israel created a sort of "counter-state" there.  I think at first, Arab interest in the region was disingenuous:  they just wanted to wipe out Israel.  Because no Arab state had expressed much interest in the region or its people.

But, like Native Americans, there were people in the Palestine that were displaced and I think have legitimate grievances.  Again, many of those grievances have been manipulated in the past by Arab powers in order to "injure" the state of Israel.

I think we're mostly beyond that now.  Except that, for most of its existence, Israel has been under declared threat of annihilation from the Arab world.

Ironically, though, I think most of the civilized Arab states have moved beyond that.  Israel hasn't.  And the Palestinians are suffering for it.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6555]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

You are putting too much weight on intention.  Intention doesn't matter.  Results do.  True intentions are rarely stated. What were the stated US intentions going into Iraq?  What were the stated Nazi intentions going into Poland?  

The current conflict has killed 192 in gaza including 58 children.  It is unacceptable for Israel to kill children - even if killing children wasn't the "point."   Israel's use of arabs as human shields was unacceptable even if the "point" was not to endanger arabs (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/israel).  

The issue is that the totality of the evidence - civil rights abuses, crimes against humanity, disproportionate civilian deaths, a system designed to propagate an ethnically clean state, a system designed to expand that ethnically clean state, the continuation of bombardment even after calls for truces - make clear that dehumanization and apartheid are being conducted by the State of Israel whether those intentions are stated or not.   

There have always been supporters of and reasons to support atrocious events in history.  Folks rationalized slavery in the US for reasons.  The south african apartheid was worth it from some people for some reasons.  Hitler had his reasons to go into Poland.  The US had reasons to otherthrow Sadam.  The presence of reasons doesn't automatically justify actions if the actions are inappropriate.  History will see the Apartheid by Israel.  People see it now.  

I am pretty sure Israel isn't using arabs as human shields.  Hamas, a terrorist organization, is using Palestinains (arabs) as human shields.

As to the Apartheid issue, what is your solution?  I am guessing your solution entails letting the Palestinians have full voting rights with a goal of taking over Israel.  That is fine but do you think they will have an issue with the Jews there?  Will they suddenly live in peace? 

The problem isn't the Israelis versus the Palestinians its Hamas, a terrorist organization.  Get rid of Hamas and you can try and get a roadmap to peace.  

[AnTiM 1659]

My guess is that as long as there are two people left alive in the area they will be hunting one another in the rubble.  Hard to make peace among people whose mantra is "Me and my brother against my cousin, me and my cousin against anyone else".  Discouraging to see that two sects of the same religion butcher one another like cattle and do it in the name of the almighty.  Sad to say it is starting to look the same way here over a perfectly legal election.

[GW Hayduke 1952]

Just now, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I am pretty sure Israel isn't using arabs as human shields.  Hamas, a terrorist organization, is using Palestinains (arabs) as human shields.

I recommend taking a look at the media bubble that resulted in this take.  It is common throughout history to blame others for the killing of civilians.   In addition to the piece on the 2005 Israel supreme court ruling I provided earlier, wiki provides a good snapshot of the use of human shields throughout the conflict.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Palestine The point I am making is that we know Israel has used human shields.  We know the degree of civilian and children deaths are inappropriate.    

6 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

As to the Apartheid issue, what is your solution?  I am guessing your solution entails letting the Palestinians have full voting rights with a goal of taking over Israel.  That is fine but do you think they will have an issue with the Jews there?  Will they suddenly live in peace? 

The current solution is to cease bombardment and civilian killing. The longterm solution is clearly two states.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

[Chad Fuck 17566]

I haven't read every single post on this thread but I've got the general idea that quite a few of y'all are are big proponents of coming up with a way to really solve the issue that the Jewish people are causing in the Middle East.  Something that would end the conflict once and for all.
Some kind of a final solution to the Jewish problem...

Seems like a modest proposal.

[TxTower 650]

I am pretty sure Israel isn't using arabs as human shields.  Hamas, a terrorist organization, is using Palestinains (arabs) as human shields.
As to the Apartheid issue, what is your solution?  I am guessing your solution entails letting the Palestinians have full voting rights with a goal of taking over Israel.  That is fine but do you think they will have an issue with the Jews there?  Will they suddenly live in peace? 
The problem isn't the Israelis versus the Palestinians its Hamas, a terrorist organization.  Get rid of Hamas and you can try and get a roadmap to peace.  

Hamas is a proxy for Iran and their stated goal of destroying Israel. Iran provides funding, arms (rockets) and training to Hamas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Asithappens 974]

1 hour ago, AnTiM said:

My guess is that as long as there are two people left alive in the area they will be hunting one another in the rubble. 

Yep, the jews and arabs are essentially two sides to the same coin. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

12 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Yeah, yeah, ethno state/apartheid but what happens if the Palestinians did take control of Israel?  They let the jews live there in peace?

If Israel is set up as a Constitutional democracy with liberal values enshrined in law then yes, that would absolutely be the goal.

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, yeah.  The state of Israel has worked wonders with the territory.  It has become a beautiful and productive country because of the monomaniacal efforts of the Jews.

"productive"? who cares?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Quote

But, like Native Americans, there were people in the Palestine that were displaced and I think have legitimate grievances.  Again, many of those grievances have been manipulated in the past by Arab powers in order to "injure" the state of Israel.

The displacement isn't past tense. It's happening right now, still. 

It's policy to steal land.

[GW Hayduke 1952]

3 minutes ago, TxTower said:

Hamas is a proxy for Iran and their stated goal of destroying Israel. Iran provides funding, arms (rockets) and training to Hamas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How is that relevant?  Does it somehow justify an apartheid and crimes against humanity?  I know you have probably heard that narrative in a bunch of places, but what does it mean to you? 

Israel is a proxy of the US and other western nations looking for middle eastern country to stage our influence from.  The US provides funding, arms (rockets) and training to Israel.  How is that relevant?

[Js1 85110]

Uh yeah it’s a bit….stupid?…to think you win an argument calling Hamas a proxy for Iran, when we have been keeping Israel afloat for decades, just to have a special democracy in the Middle East. 

Doesn’t excuse Israel’s behavior 

[JBJ 3649]

16 hours ago, hpslugga said:

They’re guidelines based on existing law, which is the Partition Resolution. 242 basically says that regardless of how emotionally invested certain parties are in believing otherwise, it’s still illegal to acquire territory by conquest and the partition resolution therefore stands.

The language in 242 includes “Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;” and that pronouncement was affirmed in the 2004 ICJ advisory opinion. East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank are among those territories.

The advisory opinion only affirmed that 242 was still the path forward to negotiate by (following the 2nd Infatada which still wasn't quite over at the time). 1515 did the same thing but with greater detail.  Neither demand an immediate withdrawal or say the current occupation is unjustified.

Either way, Israel and the PLO can sign a treaty tomorrow to unify and it doesn't break international law.

Edited May 17, 2021 by JBJ

[hpslugga 4044]

1 hour ago, JBJ said:

The advisory opinion only affirmed that 242 was still the path forward to negotiate by (following the 2nd Infatada which still wasn't quite over at the time). 1515 did the same thing but with greater detail.  Neither demand an immediate withdrawal or say the current occupation is unjustified.

Either way, Israel and the PLO can sign a treaty tomorrow to unify and it doesn't break international law.

The ICJ’s decision included within it a separate declaration by the US justice Buergenthal. In it, he literally says:

”Paragraph 6 of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention also does not admit for exceptions on grounds of military or security exigencies. It provides that “the Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies”. I agree that this provision applies to the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and that their existence violates Article 49, paragraph 6. It follows that the segments of the wall being built by Israel to protect the settlements are ipso facto in violation of international humanitarian law. Moreover, given the demonstrable great hardship to which the affected Palestinian population is being subjected in and around the enclaves created by those segments of the wall, I seriously doubt that the wall would here satisfy the proportionality requirement to qualify as a legitimate measure of self-defence.”

It is a logical impossibility to separate what Israel is allowed to do regarding the settlements and with the occupied territories. Again, this all traces back to the Partition Resolution/Green lines and all that wonderful stuff. There is no provision in international law that legitimizes permanent military occupation in those territories. That’s the thing about occupations: they’re temporary. They are supposed to end. When they do not end, they are not occupations. When they do not end, they are annexations. Occupations, as I said before, do become illegal when it’s been determined that the occupier isn’t making good faith efforts to resolve the issue. Israel has made no such effort to the Palestinians since June 4 1967. They were forced to with Egypt, and Egypt has since ceased all hostilities. Gee, I wonder why. 

Regarding what you said about signing a treaty not affecting international law, that’s true but it has nothing to do with the real world. Such a treaty would be a mutual proposition and mutual alterations to territorial integrity is certainly valid. But that’s not what’s happening here. The competing claims that the two parties have are that 1) there’s what the Palestinians are entitled to under current existing law (which is the partition resolution) and 2) there’s also what Israel wants. In a legal arena, even one as screwy as international law, what one party is entitled to trumps what another party wants if they’re talking about the same things (pieces of land in this case).

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by hpslugga

[elfenix 34171]

22 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

their religious identity and preservation hinges on Israel.

considering how much the exile to babylon has to do with jewish religious identity and preservation, and that centers for jewish scholarship, even well after the messiah returned them to jerusalem and rebuilt the temple, were in mesopotamia, not much, actually. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

7 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, yeah.  The state of Israel has worked wonders with the territory.  It has become a beautiful and productive country because of the monomaniacal efforts of the Jews.

You could say there wasn't anything worth fighting for until Israel was created.

But the creation of Israel created a sort of "counter-state" there.  I think at first, Arab interest in the region was disingenuous:  they just wanted to wipe out Israel.  Because no Arab state had expressed much interest in the region or its people.

But, like Native Americans, there were people in the Palestine that were displaced and I think have legitimate grievances.  Again, many of those grievances have been manipulated in the past by Arab powers in order to "injure" the state of Israel.

I think we're mostly beyond that now.  Except that, for most of its existence, Israel has been under declared threat of annihilation from the Arab world.

Ironically, though, I think most of the civilized Arab states have moved beyond that.  Israel hasn't.  And the Palestinians are suffering for it.

The entire Holy Land has been deemed "worth fighting for" by zealots from three religions for 2000 years. And who knows what it was like 1500 years ago. Maybe it really was a land of milk and honey once before. 

No Arab state claimed much of an interest because no Arab states existed on earth until when? Not including the Ottomans, who definitely declared an interest. 

The wonders Israel has created are only possible thanks to massive subsidies from the west. "Making the desert bloom" is not a profitable enterprise -- the dates and melons and tomatoes the kibbutzniks wrest out of the Negev and especially the Arava are incidental to the real point of those settlements: national defense. Ask me how I know: I was a kibbutz volunteer at Yahel, in the Arava, where our fields ended in an electricifed fence on the border with Jordan, about 20 mi southwest of Petra and 20 miles north of Eilat. 

Other kibbutzim in more fertile areas have blossomed, yes, more so than comparable cities in comparable regions of Syria and Lebanon, etc. But how much of that is due to the western support Israel receives and the instability it itself brings to the region?  (Ask me how I know -- my other term of duty on a kibbutz was at Kfar Blum, in the lush Upper Galilee, just this side of the Golan Heights, famously seized from Syria and still held onto illegally by Israel, and also just this side of the Bekaa Valley, not quite as famously turned into a war zone by periodic incursions by the IDF.)

[elfenix 34171]

*the ottomans were turks from central asia. 

first arab state, rather than local tribes, was the ummayyad caliphate under muawiya I, ruling from damascus.  syria, at the time, included the modern israeli state.  the coastal ports existed then.  doesn't really seem like not claiming an interest.

saladin retook jerusalem from the crusaders but he was a kurd so the ayubid dynasty isn't properly arab, i suppose. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

25 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

The entire Holy Land has been deemed "worth fighting for" by zealots from three religions for 2000 years. And who knows what it was like 1500 years ago. Maybe it really was a land of milk and honey once before. 

No Arab state claimed much of an interest because no Arab states existed on earth until when? Not including the Ottomans, who definitely declared an interest. 

The wonders Israel has created are only possible thanks to massive subsidies from the west. "Making the desert bloom" is not a profitable enterprise -- the dates and melons and tomatoes the kibbutzniks wrest out of the Negev and especially the Arava are incidental to the real point of those settlements: national defense. Ask me how I know: I was a kibbutz volunteer at Yahel, in the Arava, where our fields ended in an electricifed fence on the border with Jordan, about 20 mi southwest of Petra and 20 miles north of Eilat. 

Other kibbutzim in more fertile areas have blossomed, yes, more so than comparable cities in comparable regions of Syria and Lebanon, etc. But how much of that is due to the western support Israel receives and the instability it itself brings to the region?  (Ask me how I know -- my other term of duty on a kibbutz was at Kfar Blum, in the lush Upper Galilee, just this side of the Golan Heights, famously seized from Syria and still held onto illegally by Israel, and also just this side of the Bekaa Valley, not quite as famously turned into a war zone by periodic incursions by the IDF.)

I don't think it was the broad middle east that they were fighting about/for.  It was Jerusalem.

Sure, various and sundry places in the middle east were of tactical or strategic importance, but it was all Jerusalem all the time.

The comment about the Palestine region being mostly a wasteland is just an observation about Israel, not really pro or con.  

 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't think it was the broad middle east that they were fighting about/for.  It was Jerusalem.

Sure, various and sundry places in the middle east were of tactical or strategic importance, but it was all Jerusalem all the time.

The comment about the Palestine region being mostly a wasteland is just an observation about Israel, not really pro or con.  

 

It's a magical place but it wouldn't be without all the treasure flowing in from the faithful for 2000 years. The Jews have succeeded in making Israel a western nation but not much more so than Lebanon or even what Syria could be like without Israeli opposition. It's ironic that both those countries are regarded with suspicion (at best) by American Christian Zionists, when those are the two countries that have done the most to protect their ancient Christian minorities.

 

[Neonmoon 38127]

Wow. That’s not a good look. 

 

[hpslugga 4044]

22 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Wow. That’s not a good look. 

 

This is like using...well a PragerU video to outline the Ten Commandments. In the words of the comic guy on the Simpsons, "worst.source.everrrrr"

[hpslugga 4044]

24 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

It's a magical place but it wouldn't be without all the treasure flowing in from the faithful for 2000 years. The Jews have succeeded in making Israel a western nation but not much more so than Lebanon or even what Syria could be like without Israeli opposition. It's ironic that both those countries are regarded with suspicion (at best) by American Christian Zionists, when those are the two countries that have done the most to protect their ancient Christian minorities.

 

Oh and it doesn't stop there. There are certainly repressive regimes in the Arab world, but the worst among them are US and Israeli allies. Conversely, the biggest "enemy states" of the US and Israel are fucking democratic paradises when compared to said allies.

[UpperWestside 6136]

The basic situation is simple. Israel will point to the land being appointed to them by God when they entered the Promised Land. It is looked at as a birthright. Descendants of the Palestinians were there first so they look at the land as theirs.  You can add every single layer on this that you want, but the basics are that.
 

I can look at the land and say I would want to find a different place to call home instead of that area. Even though I come from Jews on my mom’s side of the family we were not raised in that faith. People who were look at 1948 as the date they got what God promised them back again. Palestinians were living there and were now treated as 2nd class citizens and have been forcibly removed by Israel to a smaller and smaller partition of land as the big bad bully, backed by the United States militarily and financially, tells them to kick rocks. That will tend to create a situation where the group with the least amount of power will search for help from whomever is offering it. 
 

What Israel is doing is absolutely an atrocity. Killing children is such a sad testament to how Netanyahu and his regime views the Palestinians. They are human beings that deserve the ability to live without the constant fear of an occupying force. They are going down a very dark path and I personally believe that the United States should abandon them to their own devices and allow them to stand on their own two feet. It would not end well for them. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by UpperWestside

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

3 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Oh and it doesn't stop there. There are certainly repressive regimes in the Arab world, but the worst among them are US and Israeli allies. Conversely, the biggest "enemy states" of the US and Israel are fucking democratic paradises when compared to said allies.

In Saudi Arabia you can go watch people who disrespected the faith get beheaded in the public square after Friday prayers! Whoopee!

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

3 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

The basic situation is simple. Israel will point to the land being appointed to them by God when they entered the Promised Land. It is looked at as a birthright. Descendants of the Palestinians were there first so they look at the land as theirs.  You can add every single layer on this that you want, but the basics are that.
 

I can look at the land and say I would want to find a different place to call home instead of that area. Even though I come from Jews on my mom’s side of the family we were not raised in that faith. People who were look at 1948 as the date they got what God promised them back again. Palestinians were living there and were now treated as 2nd class citizens and have been forcibly removed by Israel to a smaller and smaller partition of land as the big bad bully, backed by the United States militarily and financially, tells them to kick rocks. That will tend to create a situation where the group with the least amount of power will search for help from whomever is offering it. 
 

What Israel is doing is absolutely an atrocity. Killing children is such a sad testament to how Netanyahu and his regime views the Palestinians. They are human beings that deserve the ability to live without the constant fear of an occupying force. They are going down a very dark path and I personally believe that the United States should abandon them to their own devices and allow them to stand on their own two feet. It would not end well for them. 

Some people are just totally unable to see the world through anyone’s eyes but their own. 

[Satchel 6908]

It’s odd that religion is at the center of the decades long turmoil in the Middle East. When there, one experiences an absence of real religious sentiment within the people despite the “holy sites” that dot the lanspdscape.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Benjamin Netanyahu is a huge POS 

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

 

[Satchel 6908]

23 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Benjamin Netanyahu is a huge POS 

Huge. 

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

32 minutes ago, Satchel said:

It’s odd that religion is at the center of the decades long turmoil in the Middle East. When there, one experiences an absence of real religious sentiment within the people despite the “holy sites” that dot the lanspdscape.

Damnit. I almost fell for that.

[brakeman 28253]

[bolverk 29402]

Catching up on some weekend viewing and just watched the first segment of Last Week Tonight. Unfortunately, their YouTube page doesn't have the segment so I had to got to Twitter and was only able to grab the following abbreviated piece. If you've got an HBO account, I encourage you to go watch his entire righteous rant.

 

[Kyrie Eleison 9312]

[C-Man 27058]

Benjamin Netanyahu is a huge POS 

What happened with his corruption shit?

[hpslugga 4044]

Just now, C-Man said:

What happened with his corruption shit?

See Impeachment of Donald Trump

[tx 3 putt 76399]

3 minutes ago, C-Man said:

What happened with his corruption shit?

 

no time for that, we have to drop bombs !!!!

[lmao 178]

Brutal:

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeGgTuxf/

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

9 hours ago, Satchel said:

It’s odd that religion is at the center of the decades long turmoil in the Middle East. When there, one experiences an absence of real religious sentiment within the people despite the “holy sites” that dot the lanspdscape.

That was not what I came away with...The Jews on the two kibbutzim I lived on were secular to varying degrees (oddly, the one with the younger members was much more observant, but still very Reform), but Jerusalem and the settlements are full of fanatics. I was witness to some unforgettable scenes of Christian faith and pageantry in Jerusalem; a tall, wild-eyed Russian monk collapsing in prayer in front of the shrine in the Holy Sepulchre; the Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox faith leading an Easter procession through the streets in clouds of incense and to the strange tunes of a band of Palestinian Christian bagpipers. My ex and I ran afoul of Muslim authorities at al-Aksa for forgetting ourselves and giving into a public display of affection: holding hands. And on and on.... 

[Asithappens 974]

8 hours ago, C-Man said:

What happened with his corruption shit?

I think it's on hold until he leaves office.

[bad_teammate 13132]

56 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

That was not what I came away with...The Jews on the two kibbutzim I lived on were secular to varying degrees (oddly, the one with the younger members was much more observant, but still very Reform), but Jerusalem and the settlements are full of fanatics. I was witness to some unforgettable scenes of Christian faith and pageantry in Jerusalem; a tall, wild-eyed Russian monk collapsing in prayer in front of the shrine in the Holy Sepulchre; the Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox faith leading an Easter procession through the streets in clouds of incense and to the strange tunes of a band of Palestinian Christian bagpipers. My ex and I ran afoul of Muslim authorities at al-Aksa for forgetting ourselves and giving into a public display of affection: holding hands. And on and on.... 

Sounds like Disney should take over Jerusalem and just turn it into a series of rides and Experiences

[Nivek 16861]

This is like using...well a PragerU video to outline the Ten Commandments. In the words of the comic guy on the Simpsons, "worst.source.everrrrr"

What is pragerU?

[Asithappens 974]

The NYT had a good summary of the situation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/18/briefing/israel-hamas-conflict-fighting.html

 

This may be the biggest obstacle to peace:

When the United Nations proposed a two-state solution in the 1940s, Arabs rejected it, David Harris recently wrote in The Times of Israel. When Arab countries controlled Palestinian territories in the 1950s and ’60s, they could have created a nation and did not. When Israel and President Bill Clinton offered a two-state peace deal two decades ago, the Palestinians said no.

 

Even many supporters of Israel who despair over Netanyahu’s leadership believe the larger problem is the Palestinians’ unwillingness to empower competent political leaders, rather than militants like Hamas. Israel can’t make a peace deal, its supporters say, until it has a partner more interested in building a prosperous society than trying to destroy Israel.

[Nivek 16861]

Benjamin Netanyahu is a huge POS 

Um, it is not directly about religion. It is always about money and power.

[Nivek 16861]

I believe it was addressed above that the Clinton meetings included bad faith offers by Israel knowing it was impossible for the Palestinians to accept.

[F250 28691]

9 hours ago, C-Man said:

What happened with his corruption shit?

The trial started last month. Coincidentally his political career took a major hit and it looked like he was going to be out the door as PM but this shit hit the fan and the opposition failed to form a government. Looks like war and turmoil might be able to keep Netanyahu in power. It smells like a "Wag the dog" situation.

 

[GW Hayduke 1952]

2 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

The NYT had a good summary of the situation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/18/briefing/israel-hamas-conflict-fighting.html

 

This may be the biggest obstacle to peace:

When the United Nations proposed a two-state solution in the 1940s, Arabs rejected it, David Harris recently wrote in The Times of Israel. When Arab countries controlled Palestinian territories in the 1950s and ’60s, they could have created a nation and did not. When Israel and President Bill Clinton offered a two-state peace deal two decades ago, the Palestinians said no.

Even many supporters of Israel who despair over Netanyahu’s leadership believe the larger problem is the Palestinians’ unwillingness to empower competent political leaders, rather than militants like Hamas. Israel can’t make a peace deal, its supporters say, until it has a partner more interested in building a prosperous society than trying to destroy Israel.

It's important to understand that there are groups within groups.  The palestinians are composed of far-right nationalists along with moderates- just like there is on the Israel side.  Each time peace is near, the far-right nationalists on each side sabotage the situation.  That pattern repeats itself.  

 

9 minutes ago, Nivek said:

What is pragerU?

It a well known far-right misinformation/disinformation outlet that pumps propaganda into the US on behalf of the GOP.  Israel's PM aligning themselves with US propaganda outlets is the continuation of a bizarre foreign policy by Netanyahu, along with aligning himself with Trump and his BS speech in 2015 to the US Senate, that is alienating the State of Israel from Democrats along with many Jews in the US.    

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PragerU

[GW Hayduke 1952]

20 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

The NYT had a good summary of the situation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/18/briefing/israel-hamas-conflict-fighting.html

 

This may be the biggest obstacle to peace:

When the United Nations proposed a two-state solution in the 1940s, Arabs rejected it, David Harris recently wrote in The Times of Israel. When Arab countries controlled Palestinian territories in the 1950s and ’60s, they could have created a nation and did not. When Israel and President Bill Clinton offered a two-state peace deal two decades ago, the Palestinians said no.

Even many supporters of Israel who despair over Netanyahu’s leadership believe the larger problem is the Palestinians’ unwillingness to empower competent political leaders, rather than militants like Hamas. Israel can’t make a peace deal, its supporters say, until it has a partner more interested in building a prosperous society than trying to destroy Israel.

 

 

[hpslugga 4044]

22 minutes ago, Nivek said:

What is pragerU?

Dennis Prager's "conservative nonprofit that is focused on changing minds through the creative use of digital media. Taking full advantage of today's technology and social media, we educate millions of Americans and young people about the values that make America great. Donations to PragerU are tax-deductible."

They put out these videos which are just hilarious in their fractal wrongness. AronRa in particular has made some hay out of dissecting some of the crazier ones (Ten Commandments, liberalism vs. leftism, proving the existence of an omniscient being, etc). In fact, now that I think of it, go ahead and watch the video because you'll learn exactly the opposite of the realities of the situation there.

[hpslugga 4044]

9 minutes ago, F250 said:

The trial started last month. Coincidentally his political career took a major hit and it looked like he was going to be out the door as PM but this shit hit the fan and the opposition failed to form a government. Looks like war and turmoil might be able to keep Netanyahu in power. It smells like a "Wag the dog" situation.

 

Oh there's no doubt about it. And did anyone else notice that Biden recently approved a $735 million arms sale to them recently? Couldn't be a coincidence, could it?

[bad_teammate 13132]

BDS

 

[hpslugga 4044]

27 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

The NYT had a good summary of the situation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/18/briefing/israel-hamas-conflict-fighting.html

 

This may be the biggest obstacle to peace:

When the United Nations proposed a two-state solution in the 1940s, Arabs rejected it, David Harris recently wrote in The Times of Israel. When Arab countries controlled Palestinian territories in the 1950s and ’60s, they could have created a nation and did not. When Israel and President Bill Clinton offered a two-state peace deal two decades ago, the Palestinians said no.

Even many supporters of Israel who despair over Netanyahu’s leadership believe the larger problem is the Palestinians’ unwillingness to empower competent political leaders, rather than militants like Hamas. Israel can’t make a peace deal, its supporters say, until it has a partner more interested in building a prosperous society than trying to destroy Israel.

Wow that was powerfully dishonest