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Incels: Involuntarily Celibate & Sexual Marxism

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11365

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On 5/4/2018 at 10:45 PM, austingirl said:

I first heard of these guys after the Santa Barbara shooting. So delusional. And creepy, honestly. 

This is my favorite "she doesn't owe you anything" article. Spoilered because long.

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Dude, enough with the entitlement. She doesn’t owe you shit.

Why are you telling her to smile? Are you owed a smile? No, you are not. You aren’t owed shit.

I had a guy ask me for my phone number when I was getting out of my car to get gas. I told him “I’m sorry I have a boyfriend.” So he slit my convertible top open while I was inside paying. – Amanda

She doesn’t owe you a smile, a wave, her phone number, a date, a second date, a kiss, a blowjob or a fuck. It doesn’t matter if you complimented her, bought her drinks, took her to dinner, gave her a ride or made her a mix tape. She doesn’t owe you shit.

On a date that was going not too well I decided to leave. Dude followed me to my car and pushed up against me trying to get me to kiss him. When I said no and tried to get away he said “fuck I bought you a beer.” – Amber

Even if you married her and paid for everything it doesn’t give you possession over her body. Slavery is illegal, and marital rape has been against the law in all 50 states since 1993.

“I tried to fight him but I couldn’t land a blow from being so drunk. When he was done, he put out two cigarettes on my thighs. I asked him why, and he said, “you owed me and you shouldn’t have fought.” – Anon

I keep saying “you,” but perhaps it’s not you, because #notallmen, amirite?

For the truly good men, realize that I’m using the royal “you” in this context for effect. If you too are sick of the way women are treated like pretty things to be possessed, please keep reading, because these comments contain lessons all men must learn.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled rant.

When I was 19, I had consensual sex w/ a guy a little older than me, and it was great. Til he wanted to go in the backdoor and I said no. To which I was flipped over, held down by the back of my neck and told “You have to learn to listen”. – Suzzett

She doesn’t owe you an explanation as to why she doesn’t want to go out with you. She doesn’t owe you conversation. When you catcall her she is under no obligation to acknowledge your presence, because she doesn’t owe you shit.

I run outdoors … the catcalls, sexual remarks etc happen almost every day. Just last week, this guy blocked my path to start talking to me … he complemented my running and asked for my number. I (very politely) told him I need to get back to my run … and then the insults started. I had to push him off the path and run fast just to get out of there. – Sue

She shouldn’t have to explain that she has a boyfriend, or make one up. “No” is a complete sentence, not the beginning of a negotiation process. If you continue to pursue her, she doesn’t have to eventually give in to your “charms.”

Numerous times…Meet a guy, exchange numbers, light flirting by text, into unsolicited d*ck pics, into “you saw mine, let me see yours”. When I say that’s not really my thing, he’s gets super pissed saying “that’s not fair.” – April

This isn’t what you’ve been conditioned to expect. You watched Leonard pursue Penny on Big Bang Theoryand it worked out for him. Kevin James had two babes in Zookeeper and has a hot wife in King of Queens, and he’s not even rich. The nerd got the girl in Revenge of the Nerds via outright rape. Guys getting the girl via relentless stalking has happened innumerable times in movies. Getting back to the banging on Big Bang Theory, the weasel-like Howard has a hot wife and on a recent episode the overly nerdy Raj is alternating between the beds of two beautiful women.

Just because I was a drunk 13 year old who stupidly allowed you to fondle me did not mean you had the right to then fuck me when I said no and cried through entire experience. – Natasha

It’s enough to make any guy thinks the world owes him a model or three. But it doesn’t owe you something, and neither does she.

Many women live in fear of guys who pursue them, and many are practiced in deescalating. They’ve been hassled and catcalled and groped and stalked and even assaulted. They’ve been told to smile and insulted for their looks and called a bitch and a slut and told to loosen up … and much, much worse.

Had a guy pull up to me in his car while masturbating when I was 18 and on my courier job. A friend/coworker had the same guy approach her and when she called the police, the dispatcher just laughed. – Stevie

They have been treated like possessions by strangers as well as by men they know so many times that their lives can’t help be affected by it. Some are desensitized, and others become hyper sensitive. So what can you, the good man, do about it?

At our neighborhood pool in my bikini because I feel comfortable wearing one. Neighbor I barely know asks me how many kids I have, I told him 3, and he looks me up and down and proceeds to comment on how good my body is. I don’t care what the fuck he thinks about my body! Ewwwww!!! – Stacey

Stop turning a blind eye. Believe what women say, and admit that rape culture is a real thing. I know some people call bullshit on that term, but after reading the comments in this piece what the hell else would you call it?

In marriage counseling with a Christian counselor. My then husband complained that I wouldn’t have sex with him anymore. The counselor looked me in the eye and told me my marriage wouldn’t be falling apart if I were fulfilling my duties as a wife. – Kristine

Call out rape culture wherever you see it. Don’t be a bystander to such harassment. Help make the harassers feel harassed and perhaps they’ll rethink it.

After one bad date, he parked outside of my house for weeks, following me every time I left the house. The police were not helpful. – Heather

Be an ally to women, not just another adversary. They get enough crap from police and security guards and church leaders and parents and significant others who think they were asking for the abuse. Don’t participate in victim blaming. Put the blame where it belongs: on the perpetrators.

A guy I (briefly) dated in my 20’s berated me for an hour because I didn’t swallow. Like ingesting his semen was supposed to be some kind of honour. I think he thought it was a gift he was giving me. He actually called me ungrateful. – Sarah

These comments are from me asking for examples of harassment on my Facebook page. I didn’t realize what I was in for, thinking I might get a dozen replies. Was I ever wrong. Reading through every word of the several hundred responses, many sent via private message, was a daunting task that made me feel sick.

My church leader told me I had to forgive the person who sexually abused me. And I had to repent for having seduced him, when I was six. I was told if I didn’t forgive him, he’d go to hell and it would be my fault, and that I owed him the freedom that being forgiven gives a person. – Polly

This article includes only a sample of the comments / messages I received. I would ask that you endeavor to read as much as you can to gain better understanding into this rampant problem. Also, a follow up article was written based on the many comment this piece received titled “Feminism And The Men Who Refuse To Understand.” It’s worth checking out.

Thank you in advance.

When I was 18 I moved in with my boyfriend out of love and financial necessity. It was my first sexual relationship and started out consensually, but soon became forced several times a week. I would beg, “not tonight” and was told, that I lived in his house and he pays a larger portion of the bills (I was in college full time) and this was expected. – Amanda

Family friend offers to drive me home from college. Whole 4-hour ride home (he took the long route) I am fighting off his hands being in places I don’t want them. – Niki

I was just starting my career in fire/rescue and one of my substitute instructors began calling me and asking me to meet him outside if class as well as using me to demonstrate how to physically assess trauma patients. When I refused his advances he began giving me failing grades. – Shannah

When I was 21, a man at least 40 years my senior asked me if I had a fat pussy while out at the bar. When I looked at him in what I’m sure was complete surprise and disgust, he proceeded to tell me he could tell through my pants that I had a fat pussy. – Becky

I hooked up with this guy once and later saw him at a party where he kept grabbing me in a hot tub and asking me to “sit on his lap”. I said no and kept moving eventually getting away from him. He found me in a room then blocked the only exit, not letting me out until I had sex with him. – Ellen

That time I went on a date and when he drove me home, I didn’t want him to come up. So he raped me. I then told my priest who said it was my fault for tempting him. I’m an atheist now. – Tanya

When I was in college, I went out on a date with a friend. Despite my protests, he insisted on paying for dinner. He became furious when I wouldn’t go back with him and have sex, insisting that it wasn’t fair because I “owed” him sex since he paid for dinner. – Elizabeth

Once when I was in college wearing a short shorts on a very hot day an old man said to me “open up let me SUCK it…but make sure you wash up in the river first” That felt so dirty and nasty. – Marsha

My life has unfortunately been riddled with harassment from men starting when I was 7 and it has ranged from unwanted comments and requests from boys to molestation to catcalls, being followed, obsessions and even assault. – Melissa

On two separate occasions guys have whipped their dicks out after giving me a ride home. Mere acquaintances. – Sandy

One time I was at the bar with a friend; we were chatting at a table when two men approached us. One of them then proceeded to rub my arm, uninvited, and asked me to dance. I moved my arm and politely declined. He persisted. I declined again, a bit more firmly. He became more aggressive in his pursuit, raising his voice and attempting to use his physical presence in an intimidating manner. I finally snapped: “I don’t want to dance with you! Fuck OFF!” At that point, he spit on me. – Shashanna

If I wanted a better shift (bartender in college) I needed to “date” the manager. – Keri

I’m a lesbian. Was out in public with my girlfriend. Man asks us to kiss each other so he can watch. Asked for a threesome after I told him to fuck off. – “Scruff”

At a church youth group. 15 years old. Older guy groped me. Tried to force me to kiss him. Very shaken, told the leaders, was blamed because my belly was showing a little & I dressed “alternatively.”– Hani

I have a neutral facial expression (a.k.a. resting bitch face) and I am constantly told (by men) that it wouldn’t break my face to smile. – Andrea

If I turned down sex, my ex-husband used to tell me it was my “wifely duty” … Then he made me do it anyway. He genuinely thought he was being kind afterward when he’d pat my sobbing shoulders a couple times and thank me for a job well done. – Heidi

20yo – I’m in the military. Everyone wants to either fuck me or harass me for fun. I am entirely defined by my gender. – Lauren

“Erin, you have really nice legs. When will you be wearing a skirt to class next?” – my high school computer teacher. In front of the whole class. – Erin

Online dating … The unsolicited “dick pic” has become something that you have to actually state UP FRONT that you DON’T want or it comes whistling into your messages. These are usually followed by “let’s see yours”. – Maureen

I once turned a guy down for a second date so he stalked me for two years. – Samantha

It makes me really sad how, often, the last defence we have is to say we have a boyfriend, whether that’s true or not. Like your desire to be left alone is only valid if another guy has perceived “rights” to you, it’s not enough that you don’t want this person’s attention. – Jodie

I had a former soldier try to use his service and unpleasant experiences in Iraq to guilt trip me into going out with him. It’s amazing how quickly his “traumatized warrior who just needs love” shtick turned into “bitter misogynistic curse-spewing douchenozzle” after I turned him down. – Sarah

Asked me why I wear my hair so short. Told him I liked it that way. His parting salvo was “because guys prefer long hair on women”. Hurrah for unsolicited advice from random fuckfaces on the street. – Julia

Last night, on my way home from the train station, a man smoking out his window greeted me with “Evening” as I walked past. I smiled slightly, trying to be friendly/prevent further interaction/get home. Which got me called “stuck-up fat cunt!” – Jennifer

I was walking from work to the bus stop one afternoon when a guy pulled up along the side walk and leaned out to talk to me. He said how pretty I was, had nice hair and asked me my name. I responded as I always did, “Thanks, my guy agrees,” (whether I have one or not); he then yelled at me “just asked your name you fucking fat bitch!” – Kimberley

When I was 15 I was cat-called and ignored it. When the guy was unhappy about this, he walked over and asked for my phone number. When I ignored him again, he beat me up until I had a concussion. – Kelsie

If I crash on your couch, you do not have permission to grope me while I am sleeping. – Bethany

“I have condoms. And we (group of 10+ guys) want to test them and you are the lucky one.” (I did not feel lucky.) – Chantal

My brother tried to sell me to a dope dealer for a night because he owed him money. – Julie

I ignore a man’s so called compliment “hey beautiful” and he punishes me by throwing his milkshake at my back. – Ellie

My ex husband was under the impression that so long as I was “his” wife he was owed any amount of sexual favors he deemed necessary. – Amanda

I used an online dating site, and took a friend to meet a guy. After meeting him I wasn’t interested, told him so, and stopped contact. He proceeded to call me a stuck up slut who led him on and who deserved something for his efforts. – Catherine

My supervisor at work asked me out. Every day. For two years. While we were alone in his car on our daily trip to make bank deposits. – Amber

I developed early and had breasts at 11; my face was still that of a child but that didn’t stop many drivers slowing down to make some disgusting comments. To this day I still freak out when a car stops by me when I’m walking. – Sara

I met a guy once; he got into my car and refused to get out until he could cop a feel. He said kiss me or show me your tits. I said I would scream if he didn’t get out. He lunged toward me and I laid on the horn. He still managed to cop a feel. Asshole. – Sara

When I was 12-13, I was molested by a family friend for 2 years. – Sara

I have been groped 7 times while shelving books. – Jill, a librarian

I was on the subway and some dude kept hitting on me. I told him I wasn’t interested and turned around. Guy grabs my butt, so I shove him back. He then smacked me across the face hard enough that I actually stumbled backwards. – Kaleena

Or the guy who tried to speak to me and I ignored on my way to the toilet who followed me and blocked my path exiting the toilet to ask why I was so rude ignoring him. – Kathryn

I stopped taking public transportation because of men. – Rebekah

Walking into Target a guy continued to catcall me, whistle and try to get my attention. I ignored him and continued walking without making eye contact. Then he finally said, “f u you whore, you ain’t that cute anyway.” – Crystal

Ahh the days of the C train..I’ve had more than my fair share of hands and hardons rubbed on my ass. – Tiffanie

Guys (even friends ) being pissed off when I cut my hair. – Patricia

I’ve been catcalled too many times to bother trying to count. (I’m not even old enough to drink yet.) – Juliet

When I was out with a friend in Paris at age 19 a group of men approached us and then one grabbed my head and pushed it towards his crotch and they all started laughing. – Jennifer

Random guy coming and hugging me several times … I called security. They said he was a good-looking guy, so why wouldn’t I just go along with it? – Patricia

Just the other day I was out running and two guys stopped JUST to leer/watch me run by and said “Helloooooo” as I ran past – forcing me into the middle of the fucking road to get by them. – Stevie

So many times. Even now, in my mid-forties, I’ve gotten comments about how I shouldn’t wear loose clothes because apparently, people are entitled to the spectacle of my butt. – Patricia

Apparently having visible tattoos gives strangers the right to touch you. – Melissa

I’m a lesbian on a gay dating site that seems to get a lot of straight men posing as lesbian women. I get way too many dick pics. – Ari

A guy saw my extensive chest piece, breathed “whoa, nice tattoo,” and yanked down the front of my shirt to get a better look. He did not understand why I was upset, and was very defensive, as if it was perfectly acceptable behavior to pull down a woman’s shirt to her sternum. – Ariana

When I was 18 my boss (grocery store) stuck his hands down the back of my pants and asked it I liked it. – Lindsey

A long-term close friend pulled out his penis and held my hand on it until I started screaming. – Zoe

I don’t like having to ‘smile’ in order to get my order and pay for my eggs or coffee. – Nina

A guy (I thought was a friend) helped me once to get out of the house I had been living in with an abusive partner. He let me stay on his couch and one morning tried to rape me. He said after all he did for me he earned it. – Anon

I’m carrying three bags of groceries home one day and this guy on a bike rides up beside me and asks if I need help. I say no thank you, I’ve got it. He calls me a bitch and says that I should be grateful that any man offers to do anything for me. – Danielle

My former boss pointed at me, in front of his wife, and said “That’s going to be my next wife.” As if I was simply property that he could claim. – Andrea

He told me to hang up my ongoing phone call so he could get my number. When I told him no and that I have a boyfriend, he got angry, accused me of making up a fake boyfriend, and pointed out that I didn’t have a ring on. – Christine

 

 

here's the thing: all sex is transactional, whether we like to admit it or not. and this isn't a "you're paying for it some way" hot take, i mean it seriously.

as a chivalrous guy, i frequently sprung for drinks or dinner when i was dating. i would be lying if i said that there wasn't some soft expectation buried in that chivalry. i honestly think that's natural, so some of the anecdotes up in that article bother me. an unwanted advance is not an assault. i would argue that if girls want to be on the left side of the equation, then they stop accepting drinks or dinners from guys. that takes you from the sum of the equation to the math part of the equation. it also empowers women.

however, some dudes are total assholes, and rape culture absolutely exists, no matter what slorch tries to claim. and both men and women are a part of that culture. there is a reason that baylor and penn state went on for years. hell, even women counselors at baylor tried to bury the rapes that existed there. that's how ingrained it was.

it exists when guys like slorch claims it does not. we are all part of it to varying degrees, whether it's my soft expectation that enough dinner dates would get me a bedroom date. to deny that it exists is folly. because slorch feels somehow victimized in the castigation of rape culture, it must not exist? that's ridiculous.

but it brings me back to my point: all sex is transactional. whether one pays a hooker, or pays for dinner, or even facilitates a free flow of ideas about philosophies of life, there IS a trade of some kind made before the pants come off. virtually no sex occurs without some transaction. so the part of the article above that annoys me is "she doesn't owe you shit." it's a two way road, and we owe each other any number of things. by accepting invitations to expensive dinners, by accepting invitations to hotel rooms, women put themselves back at the sum part of the equation, instead of the empowered left side of the equation. if a girl accepts my invitation to my hotel room, i would expect she knows why i'm asking. that doesn't give me free reign to do whatever i want once she crosses that threshold, however, and if at any time she wants to stop, things need to stop - i want to be clear on that front. but there ARE sexual expectations out there.

anyways, just a few thoughts i was having over the weekend.

tl;dr: boys and girls in america have such a sad time together; sophistication demands that they submit to sex immediately without proper preliminary talk. Not courting talk — real straight talk about souls, for life is holy and every moment is precious. - kerouac

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chainsaw

chainsaw 9873

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James Franco isn't exactly unattractive and he been slept by #MeToo.

I don't think ALL sex is transactional.  There are social expectations of politeness that surround accepting a drink, but there is no strict rule that you have to accept every drink someone buys for you or that you have to decline the drink if there's no chance in hell of a date (or of fucking the buyer).  That doesn't turn everything into a transaction.

I agree to a limited extent that men should probably approach it from a transactional perspective if they want to improve their chances.  Maybe focus on the attainable women at the bar, since your time is a limited resource and so is your budget for buying women drinks.  But also there are more ways to get laid than by approaching a stranger at a bar.  How many people out there got married to a high school or college sweetheart?  Or to a co-worker?  Or a mutual friend?  No "first drink" required there.  Just basic attraction.  She does not "owe" you anything.  Especially not any feelings of attraction.

There is also no guarantee that if a woman declines every drink offered to her that she will never get an unwanted advance.  These advances can happen in the workplace, they can happen on the bus, they can happen literally anywhere.  Some of these are harmless, but some ARE also sexual assaults.  The fear is real, and there is no way to differentiate between an unwanted advance that will become a sexual assault and an unwanted advance that won't.  That's why it's such a problem.

 

 

 

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Posted
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, F250 said:

Serious question, how many of y'all have been sexually taken advantage of by a female while you were under the influence?

 

It's obviously far different for a lady than a guy.

 

To answer the question, I may not have been "taken advantage of," but I certainly had women who siezed upon the opportunity.  Of course I fought it kickiing and screaming.

I hope we are better now than we were years ago with regard to booze and rape.  When I was in high school and college, a drunken yes was still a yes.  I think we are raising a generation who is more aware of those nuances.  Of course shitheads are still going to ignore all of that and go full neanderthal.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105360

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38 minutes ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

If the content wasn’t so hate filled, I’d have sympathy for these boards.  They are totally isolated rejects that have to suffer 1000 slights a day. I’m sure it feels good to have other folks to be able to commiserate with.   

Sure...but they feed off each other.  Instead of hearing and digesting what they need to hear: bathe, shave, move out of the basement, and go out and practice some gotdamn social skills.

Echo chambers are gonna be the death of this country.

From NY liberals saying "how could George Bush have won, I don't know anyone who voted for him!" to the olds/Trumpkins/both getting all of their information from the feedback loop that is Hannity and Fox News, to these fucking losers telling each other "WE aren't the problem....chicks with standards, man...THEY'RE the problem."

Every one of them needs an open-hand slap to the face and a rebuke to "get the fuck out of your bubble and go figure shit out."

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'stache

'stache 21874

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On 5/5/2018 at 9:05 AM, bolverk said:

It seems these twats could learn a thing or two from 80s pop culture. We had a plethora (yeah, I said it) of movies to teach us the ways. Don't be this guy:

4563_10_screenshot.png

Get creative and make something of/for yourselves like them:

 

maxresdefault.jpg

 

 

 

I remember the first time I watched Revenge of the Nerds, probably on cable, I know I was pretty young, maybe 12-15.  The scene where he bangs the girl who thinks it's her boyfriend made me cringe, even then.  He fucking raped her.  She liked it, so I guess it's okay, lol.

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F250

F250 28823

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4 hours ago, Macanudo said:

I have not.  But I'm willing to learn.

It helps if females find you attractive. Also, be prepared for your male friends to support you differently than a girl's female friends would in the same situation.

Male friends showing their support.

giphy.gif

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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5 hours ago, 'stache said:

I remember the first time I watched Revenge of the Nerds, probably on cable, I know I was pretty young, maybe 12-15.  The scene where he bangs the girl who thinks it's her boyfriend made me cringe, even then.  He fucking raped her.  She liked it, so I guess it's okay, lol.

For better or worse, probably a lot worse, it’s a reflection of the times. 

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austingirl

austingirl 2192

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, F250 said:

James Franco is borderline Steve Buscemi unattractive.

 

 

Bite your tongue, sir.

9 hours ago, chainsaw said:

James Franco isn't exactly unattractive and he been slept by #MeToo.

I don't think ALL sex is transactional.  There are social expectations of politeness that surround accepting a drink, but there is no strict rule that you have to accept every drink someone buys for you or that you have to decline the drink if there's no chance in hell of a date (or of fucking the buyer).  That doesn't turn everything into a transaction.

I agree to a limited extent that men should probably approach it from a transactional perspective if they want to improve their chances.  Maybe focus on the attainable women at the bar, since your time is a limited resource and so is your budget for buying women drinks.  But also there are more ways to get laid than by approaching a stranger at a bar.  How many people out there got married to a high school or college sweetheart?  Or to a co-worker?  Or a mutual friend?  No "first drink" required there.  Just basic attraction.  She does not "owe" you anything.  Especially not any feelings of attraction.

There is also no guarantee that if a woman declines every drink offered to her that she will never get an unwanted advance.  These advances can happen in the workplace, they can happen on the bus, they can happen literally anywhere.  Some of these are harmless, but some ARE also sexual assaults.  The fear is real, and there is no way to differentiate between an unwanted advance that will become a sexual assault and an unwanted advance that won't.  That's why it's such a problem.

 

 

 

When y'all are talking about transactional sex, do you mean while in the dating world? Or also when people are in committed relationships?

In some situations I think it could accurately be considered a transaction. But still, "transactional" implies that the individual parties agreed upon the terms before closing the deal. That doesn't happen all the time, especially if you're getting to know one another. If I go out on a date with you, and let you buy me drinks and dinner, and by the end of the night find you to be a pig, I don't owe you sex or a kiss or anything. I appreciate your generosity, but no, I don't owe you shit just because you paid for my meal. It's more of a gamble than a transaction. On both sides.

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chainsaw

chainsaw 9873

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8 hours ago, austingirl said:

When y'all are talking about transactional sex, do you mean while in the dating world? Or also when people are in committed relationships?

In some situations I think it could accurately be considered a transaction. But still, "transactional" implies that the individual parties agreed upon the terms before closing the deal. That doesn't happen all the time, especially if you're getting to know one another. If I go out on a date with you, and let you buy me drinks and dinner, and by the end of the night find you to be a pig, I don't owe you sex or a kiss or anything. I appreciate your generosity, but no, I don't owe you shit just because you paid for my meal. It's more of a gamble than a transaction. On both sides.

I'm pretty sure he meant in the dating world.  I guess it applies in a different way to committed relationships in a "if the guy doesn't wash the dishes maybe she won't be in the mood" kind of way.  It's hard to disagree that sex doesn't motivate people, and that it can be and is used as an incentive to get people to do what you want.

In the dating world what I believe hayden_horn was saying is that when a guy decides to buy a woman a drink he's making an "investment" of sorts, and that it is understandable for a guy to feel like he was conned if he makes that "investment" and the woman does not even let him talk to her.  My response to that is pretty much what you said.  It's more of a gamble than a transaction.  Just as all "investments" are.

I think most men understand that, or at least they should understand that.  A gift is a gift, with the hopes of it leading to a conversation.

I think most women also understand that if they accept a drink the polite thing to do is at least give the guy a chance to talk, so that he does not feel like he was being conned (even though there's no guarantee that a drink will even lead to a conversation).  That would also mean that the polite thing to do is to decline any drinks that are offered by men who have zero chance with you, since accepting the drink would basically require you to talk to a guy who has no chance (wasting everyone's time) or to make him feel conned.  

The other side of that same coin, if you're an obese neckbearded basementdweller with b.o. and you should know that you have no chance with an attractive woman across the room, the polite thing to do is not even attempt to buy the woman a drink, which would put her in a very awkward position of having to decline the drink.  I would think that 99% of people understand more or less what their "league" is, at least when they're sober they understand, and most drink-for-conversation "transactions" are somewhat plausible dating arrangements.

Honestly I think the real problem is that men are not properly trained in handling rejection.  They grew up on movies with impossible odds being overcome and the geek, dweeb, fatass "gets the girl," often through persistence (which in the real world is stalking and is terrifying).  I can't think of a single example of a popular movie or TV show where the main character has strong feelings for a woman, gets rejected, and he handles it in a mature way.  Sometimes the guy doesn't get the girl, but 10 seconds later he ends up with someone much hotter (500 days of summer is one example, although JGL is hardly unattractive).

So we have a lot of guys who grew up on porn and romantic comedies but who are not themselves getting any of the affection or sex that they are being told they need to have in order to be complete people.  Meanwhile I'm pretty sure anyone who is in their lives is saying that they need to hit the gym and get jobs and get their shit together, and that's all true.  They don't want to hear it, but it's true.

So instead of listening to the good advice, they go online and hear what they want to hear, which is that women are the problem and that we should go back to the "good" old days when women were property and lacked any power to control their own lives (or bodies).  I think it starts out very innocent, with stuff about how women can be really shallow that's easy for anyone to identify with.  It's true that SOME women are really shallow and shitty to other people.  Nobody can disagree with that.

Pretty soon what applies to SOME women is generalized and then "ALL women" are parasites who bleed men's wallets dry.  ALL women forgot how to cook and clean.  ALL women want to fuck as many hot guys as possible.  ALL women are "feminazis" who love having abortions.

Then the next logical step is to empathize with the chump who shot up students at Santa Barbara, to ignore or even promote domestic violence, and to consider yourself part of this "movement."

This is all because it's easier to go online and find people who will tell you what you want to hear instead of accepting what you needed to hear in the first place.

What I don't understand is that some of these people aren't even obese guys without jobs.  They're regular guys.  Maybe not even virgins.  I have no idea what their deal is.  

What I do know is that a lot of this could have been prevented if somebody had explained to them how to manage rejection.  Women seem to be rejected all the time and you never see them radicalized.

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Larry T. Spider

Larry T. Spider 1747

Posted
Posted

I think young men get a lot of mixed messages about dating.

First, they grow up with the societal expectations that you are polite and respectful. You aren’t too aggressive when perusing women and that being overly persistent is creepy. Gifts are a nice touch when you know she has some interest.

Then they go to college and watch the aggressive guys that go hard after women bang 10s all day while they jerk off to porn.

Does that give guys a right to be rapists? Of course not, and I don’t want to blame women because they can date whoever they want. I just want to recognize that we feed boys a bunch of bullshit about what women are looking for in dating. 

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chainsaw

chainsaw 9873

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Larry T. Spider said:

Then they go to college and watch the aggressive guys that go hard after women bang 10s all day while they jerk off to porn.

 

This is a boogeyman.  There's no such thing as a real "Chad."  There are guys upon whom we project our fears and desires, but make no mistake, these "Chads" still get rejected regularly and they have plenty of sexless nights.  Fewer than you or I, but still plenty.  

Does it pay to be aggressive? Sure, if you never get called out for it or suffer consequences.  If you subtract the intimidation factor from this strategy, how much of the sex that they get is actually 100%, no fear of regret, consensual?  

The purely consensual sex that they get is probably due to their confidence, which is due to a lack of fear of rejection, which cannot exist until they've experienced so much rejection that it doesn't lead to a downward spiral of self-loathing (as it would for an incel).

I agree overall that guys do receive a ton of really bad advice for getting dates/laid.  That's because the advice they're getting is based on the assumption that the girl likes the guy and is dating him.  So if a girl says "I really wish a guy would get me a bouquet of flowers," what she's saying is that she really wishes that a guy who she is already dating or is actively interested in would do that for her.  If she's currently in a relationship, she's going to know all about what her current guy should be doing to keep her happy, and she will know fuckall about how to actually get her interested in the first place.

 

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Larry T. Spider

Larry T. Spider 1747

Posted
Posted (edited)

Don’t take my previous post as giving any type of advice in dating for guys. Just a call to stop giving young men terrible advice about what women want. It sets them up for failure followed by confusion. Women want guys that are good-looking, confident, and have their shit together. Shoot for two out of three. 

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austingirl

austingirl 2192

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, chainsaw said:

I think most women also understand that if they accept a drink the polite thing to do is at least give the guy a chance to talk, so that he does not feel like he was being conned (even though there's no guarantee that a drink will even lead to a conversation).  That would also mean that the polite thing to do is to decline any drinks that are offered by men who have zero chance with you, since accepting the drink would basically require you to talk to a guy who has no chance (wasting everyone's time) or to make him feel conned.  

Yeah, I'm cringing just imagining accepting a drink from someone and then ignoring them. It's just ...mean.

Quote

Honestly I think the real problem is that men are not properly trained in handling rejection.  They grew up on movies with impossible odds being overcome and the geek, dweeb, fatass "gets the girl," often through persistence (which in the real world is stalking and is terrifying).  I can't think of a single example of a popular movie or TV show where the main character has strong feelings for a woman, gets rejected, and he handles it in a mature way.  Sometimes the guy doesn't get the girl, but 10 seconds later he ends up with someone much hotter (500 days of summer is one example, although JGL is hardly unattractive).

This is spot on. Last night Animal House was on, and I'd forgotten about the scene where Amadeus is making out with the girl from the grocery store and she passes out, and the devil on his shoulder is telling him to fuck her because she wanted it anyway. He doesn't, but God. 
 

Quote

 

What I don't understand is that some of these people aren't even obese guys without jobs.  They're regular guys.  Maybe not even virgins.  I have no idea what their deal is.  


 

Because those aren't the top of the priority list for many (maybe most) women. So what if you have a job and don't look like a goblin? It doesn't mean shit if you're an asshole, and it's usually not hard to figure out if that's the case.

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54432

Posted
Posted (edited)
On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 2:27 PM, F250 said:

Serious question, how many of y'all have been sexually taken advantage of by a female while you were under the influence?

 

Pretty much my entire sophomore year.  

Butterface with a great body.  Rich as hell.  I was poor.  I didn't have a car and lived in a dorm.  She'd drive over in her brand new BMW with a bottle of top shelf liquor for me, take me back to her apartment, get dinner delivered, and then have her way with me.

 

Damn, those were the days.   

Edited by Beau Vine
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Pato del Muerto

Pato del Muerto 52607

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, chainsaw said:

I'm pretty sure he meant in the dating world.  I guess it applies in a different way to committed relationships in a "if the guy doesn't wash the dishes maybe she won't be in the mood" kind of way.  It's hard to disagree that sex doesn't motivate people, and that it can be and is used as an incentive to get people to do what you want.

In the dating world what I believe hayden_horn was saying is that when a guy decides to buy a woman a drink he's making an "investment" of sorts, and that it is understandable for a guy to feel like he was conned if he makes that "investment" and the woman does not even let him talk to her.  My response to that is pretty much what you said.  It's more of a gamble than a transaction.  Just as all "investments" are.

I think most men understand that, or at least they should understand that.  A gift is a gift, with the hopes of it leading to a conversation.

I think most women also understand that if they accept a drink the polite thing to do is at least give the guy a chance to talk, so that he does not feel like he was being conned (even though there's no guarantee that a drink will even lead to a conversation).  That would also mean that the polite thing to do is to decline any drinks that are offered by men who have zero chance with you, since accepting the drink would basically require you to talk to a guy who has no chance (wasting everyone's time) or to make him feel conned.  

The other side of that same coin, if you're an obese neckbearded basementdweller with b.o. and you should know that you have no chance with an attractive woman across the room, the polite thing to do is not even attempt to buy the woman a drink, which would put her in a very awkward position of having to decline the drink.  I would think that 99% of people understand more or less what their "league" is, at least when they're sober they understand, and most drink-for-conversation "transactions" are somewhat plausible dating arrangements.

Honestly I think the real problem is that men are not properly trained in handling rejection.  They grew up on movies with impossible odds being overcome and the geek, dweeb, fatass "gets the girl," often through persistence (which in the real world is stalking and is terrifying).  I can't think of a single example of a popular movie or TV show where the main character has strong feelings for a woman, gets rejected, and he handles it in a mature way.  Sometimes the guy doesn't get the girl, but 10 seconds later he ends up with someone much hotter (500 days of summer is one example, although JGL is hardly unattractive).

So we have a lot of guys who grew up on porn and romantic comedies but who are not themselves getting any of the affection or sex that they are being told they need to have in order to be complete people.  Meanwhile I'm pretty sure anyone who is in their lives is saying that they need to hit the gym and get jobs and get their shit together, and that's all true.  They don't want to hear it, but it's true.

So instead of listening to the good advice, they go online and hear what they want to hear, which is that women are the problem and that we should go back to the "good" old days when women were property and lacked any power to control their own lives (or bodies).  I think it starts out very innocent, with stuff about how women can be really shallow that's easy for anyone to identify with.  It's true that SOME women are really shallow and shitty to other people.  Nobody can disagree with that.

Pretty soon what applies to SOME women is generalized and then "ALL women" are parasites who bleed men's wallets dry.  ALL women forgot how to cook and clean.  ALL women want to fuck as many hot guys as possible.  ALL women are "feminazis" who love having abortions.

Then the next logical step is to empathize with the chump who shot up students at Santa Barbara, to ignore or even promote domestic violence, and to consider yourself part of this "movement."

This is all because it's easier to go online and find people who will tell you what you want to hear instead of accepting what you needed to hear in the first place.

What I don't understand is that some of these people aren't even obese guys without jobs.  They're regular guys.  Maybe not even virgins.  I have no idea what their deal is.  

What I do know is that a lot of this could have been prevented if somebody had explained to them how to manage rejection.  Women seem to be rejected all the time and you never see them radicalized.

Succinctly put, and also right to the point. 

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elfenix

elfenix 34332

Posted
Posted
This issue reminds me of a guy I knew in college who worked out a lot so was pretty buff but had the goofiest face imaginable and so most chicks completely ignored him.
So what he did was at every party we had or went to he immediately sought out the fattest chick there and talked her up. He got laid every time and just didn’t give a shit what you or anyone else thought. Was proud of it. 
Thats all I got. 
 
 
And that guy's name was Vic Mackey
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Shmitty

Shmitty 112

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, austingirl said:

Shmitty, are you going to provide any context to why you're negging everything I post?

Damn, you could tell it was me?  Sorry, but the preachy-hi-horse, anti-male attitude doesn't jive.  And no, that doesn't mean I condone how some men treat women.    

10 hours ago, Larry T. Spider said:

Because you are a chick and he has to take out his frustrations from his moms basement?

No, I took out my frustrations from you're moms bedroom.  

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Helobious

Helobious 9464

Posted
Posted
On 5/8/2018 at 11:00 PM, Beau Vine said:

Pretty much my entire sophomore year.  

Butterface with a great body.  Rich as hell.  I was poor.  I didn't have a car and lived in a dorm.  She'd drive over in her brand new BMW with a bottle of top shelf liquor for me, take me back to her apartment, get dinner delivered, and then have her way with me.

 

Damn, those were the days.   

You poor soul. I guess you had to just close your eyes and pretend it was Bill James taking you to town until it was over. 

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Guest

Guest

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Posted

I would agree that neither one of you have.  Austin girl's perspective has been particularly objective and helpful.

 

When I objected earlier in the thread, it was to the phrase of 'rape culture'  and the tendency of people who use it to be off the deep end when it comes to interactions of men and women. Neither of you have posted with that attitude/ opinion.

I jumped the gun, but it was because of a couple different recent real life interactions with people who act like every freaking dude out there has either raped a woman or promotes it in some way.

" Well I've never raped a woman, made one feel uncomfortable in my presence( with regard to safety,) or remotely encouraged anyone to do so.  Oh, and I've demonstrated said behavior to my 2 sons and raised them to do the same."

"Well all men are guilty on some level or another.  This rape thing happens to 125% of all women.  You should be castrated. #metoo!!!"

 

yeah, I exxagerated their response, but only slightly.  neither of you belong in that group and I apologize for any appearance that I felt that way.

 

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17686

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, slorch said:

I would agree that neither one of you have.  Austin girl's perspective has been particularly objective and helpful.

 

When I objected earlier in the thread, it was to the phrase of 'rape culture'  and the tendency of people who use it to be off the deep end when it comes to interactions of men and women. Neither of you have posted with that attitude/ opinion.

I jumped the gun, but it was because of a couple different recent real life interactions with people who act like every freaking dude out there has either raped a woman or promotes it in some way.

" Well I've never raped a woman, made one feel uncomfortable in my presence( with regard to safety,) or remotely encouraged anyone to do so.  Oh, and I've demonstrated said behavior to my 2 sons and raised them to do the same."

"Well all men are guilty on some level or another.  This rape thing happens to 125% of all women.  You should be castrated. #metoo!!!"

 

yeah, I exxagerated their response, but only slightly.  neither of you belong in that group and I apologize for any appearance that I felt that way.

 

This is a really good post. 

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GhostRider

GhostRider 169

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, slorch said:

I would agree that neither one of you have.  Austin girl's perspective has been particularly objective and helpful.

 

When I objected earlier in the thread, it was to the phrase of 'rape culture'  and the tendency of people who use it to be off the deep end when it comes to interactions of men and women. Neither of you have posted with that attitude/ opinion.

I jumped the gun, but it was because of a couple different recent real life interactions with people who act like every freaking dude out there has either raped a woman or promotes it in some way.

" Well I've never raped a woman, made one feel uncomfortable in my presence( with regard to safety,) or remotely encouraged anyone to do so.  Oh, and I've demonstrated said behavior to my 2 sons and raised them to do the same."

"Well all men are guilty on some level or another.  This rape thing happens to 125% of all women.  You should be castrated. #metoo!!!"

 

yeah, I exxagerated their response, but only slightly.  neither of you belong in that group and I apologize for any appearance that I felt that way.

 

The thirst is real.

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Apep

Apep 645

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

I know that even though this is ostensibly a UT forum most of you haven’t read anything literary in decades, but I really recommend reading this story that caused an understood uproar last year in the New Yorker. I think it leaves the reader with an understanding of both the fragile psyche of women in this day and age as it pertains to hooking up and culture and also men and their subconscious expectations and hostility. I’ll link it here, and before anyone confuses me with a feminine studies guy let me just say if I was in school now I’d probably be charged with lots of crimes as most of my hook ups were because I was a good liar and got hammered and my dates equally hammered so they’d ignore their instincts.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/12/11/cat-person

I read the story. I read a Huffpost article about why the story was important. I still don't see it. It's in the New Yorker, so of course it is well-written, but it is fairly meh overall. Neither character is particularly interesting and the plot is hardly novel. It was probably a well-tread meme when 'Brat was a young man.

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austingirl

austingirl 2192

Posted
Posted

 

16 hours ago, slorch said:

I would agree that neither one of you have.  Austin girl's perspective has been particularly objective and helpful.

 

When I objected earlier in the thread, it was to the phrase of 'rape culture'  and the tendency of people who use it to be off the deep end when it comes to interactions of men and women. Neither of you have posted with that attitude/ opinion.

I jumped the gun, but it was because of a couple different recent real life interactions with people who act like every freaking dude out there has either raped a woman or promotes it in some way.

" Well I've never raped a woman, made one feel uncomfortable in my presence( with regard to safety,) or remotely encouraged anyone to do so.  Oh, and I've demonstrated said behavior to my 2 sons and raised them to do the same."

"Well all men are guilty on some level or another.  This rape thing happens to 125% of all women.  You should be castrated. #metoo!!!"

 

yeah, I exxagerated their response, but only slightly.  neither of you belong in that group and I apologize for any appearance that I felt that way.

 

I really appreciate this. I know we disagree on a lot but the discussion here has been great.

20 hours ago, Shmitty said:

Damn, you could tell it was me?  Sorry, but the preachy-hi-horse, anti-male attitude doesn't jive.  And no, that doesn't mean I condone how some men treat women.    

I'm not sure if you're serious about knowing it was you, but yes, you can click on the green or red number in the bottom right corner of a post and see who all likes or dislikes it. You should also get notified if someone reacts to your post or quotes you, and the notification panel shows you who is reacting.

Anyway, I'm genuinely curious as to what you found to be high-horsey and/or anti-male. I've been married to a guy for 15 years and am raising two boys. I, as I'm sure is the case with most everyone here, have a lot vested in working through these issues, and have found the conversation in this thread to be very insightful.

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11683

Posted
Posted
On 5/7/2018 at 12:27 PM, F250 said:

Serious question, how many of y'all have been sexually taken advantage of by a female while you were under the influence?

 

Honestly, I came to from passing out drunk being ridden by a chubby stalker who had a thing for me in college once.  I remember passing out alone.  I in no way consented to what happened and I actually stopped it mid process.  She was really embarrassed and I didn’t make it a bigger issue than stopping it.    

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El Diablo

El Diablo 4232

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, Apep said:

I read the story. I read a Huffpost article about why the story was important. I still don't see it. It's in the New Yorker, so of course it is well-written, but it is fairly meh overall. Neither character is particularly interesting and the plot is hardly novel. It was probably a well-tread meme when 'Brat was a young man.

You thought that was well written? Lol. It reads like the work of a college sophomore who's not a writer.

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chainsaw

chainsaw 9873

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, austingirl said:

I'm not sure if you're serious about knowing it was you, but yes, you can click on the green or red number in the bottom right corner of a post and see who all likes or dislikes it. You should also get notified if someone reacts to your post or quotes you, and the notification panel shows you who is reacting.

Just noticed he was doing the same on my posts.  What the fuck is "anti-male" about expecting men to hold themselves accountable for their own shortcomings in the dating world?  Learn to accept "no" like a fucking man, and not a sniveling little bitch.

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Apep

Apep 645

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, El Diablo said:

You thought that was well written? Lol. It reads like the work of a college sophomore who's not a writer.

Yes. It is supposed to be the narrative of a college underclassman who apparently isn't all that bright. The author absolutely nailed that voice.

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El Diablo

El Diablo 4232

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Apep said:

Yes. It is supposed to be the narrative of a college underclassman who apparently isn't all that bright. The author absolutely nailed that voice.

Makes me wonder how much training it takes to sound like a dumbass. Years?

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El Diablo

El Diablo 4232

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Posted
29 minutes ago, Apep said:

It's the New Yorker, so I'm guessing the author either got lucky with a timely piece or she studied for years to switch from condescending jackass to dumbass.

The entire exercise of writing in that "voice" entails a bit of condescending jackassery. It's not enough to simply explain a point, the author felt the need to write it so that a 7th grader could get the gist? Makes for a nice commentary on what they think of their audience. Or maybe it's just typical New York.

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