2021 NBA Playoffs

[hobbes2702 13074]

50 minutes ago, d2o said:

Steph is in NO WAY a better defender than Dame.   Not saying Dame is great just that Steph is terrible!

Wat? Steph is better in every defensive metric. He gets more steals and rebounds. Steph has double the defensive win shares and Dame is a negative BPM for his career. 

[Pam Cummings 9673]

He's been there a long time, helped them win their first title since the 80s. They should be better but he wasn't total trash. Just time for them to part ways.

 

The Brad Stevens part is more interesting to me. He's giving up coaching at 44? He's the best FO guy they could find? 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Pam Cummings

[aggie08 21533]

7 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

The Brad Stevens part is more interesting to me. He's giving up coaching at 44? He's the best FO guy they could find? 

Guys admitting that they're burnt out at 44 (not that there's anything wrong with that in that profession) are exactly who I want to give the keys to!

[SilasCoade 2622]

9 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Dame career stats: 44%/38%/89%

Dame playoff stats: 41%/36%/88% (with his 4 non-first round series being downright bad)

Steph career stats: 48%/43%/91%

Steph playoff stats: 45%/40%/91%

Those are pretty massive differences for dudes with similar raw numbers.

 

Completely ignoring all context. What 2 and borderline 3 other All-Stars is Dame playing with to make other teams hesitant to double? FFS, people are talking about whether the Warriors fourth best player on those teams is going to be a Hall of Famer. Only hardcore Blazers fanatics will be able to even tell you who the 4th best player on any of their recent teams has been.

How many catch and shoot jumpers is Dame getting because someone else is capable of initiating the offense? The degree of difficulty of what Dame is doing for his team really needs to be appreciated.

I'm not saying Dame is as good as Steph, but I am saying those numbers don't automatically imply the delta is as wide as you suggest.

[SilasCoade 2622]

16 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Wat? Steph is better in every defensive metric. He gets more steals and rebounds. Steph has double the defensive win shares and Dame is a negative BPM for his career. 

Again, consider the context. Steph has played most of his career with a perennial DPOY candidate and a guy known as great defender in Klay. The best defender Dame has played with has been RoCo this year. So he's drawing tougher assignments than Steph and getting less help. Again, none of that means Dame is Gary Payton out there, but just watch the games and you'll see a guy who is a pretty good on ball defender but does get worked a bit off the ball as he has to conserve some energy for the massive effort required of him on the offensive side.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8822]

Guys admitting that they're burnt out at 44 (not that there's anything wrong with that in that profession) are exactly who I want to give the keys to!

He have young kids? Maybe wants to stay put vs traveling for 5-6 months straight

[Js1 85585]

1 minute ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

He have young kids? Maybe wants to stay put vs traveling for 5-6 months straight

14 and 11, I think.

Phew, to think Indiana may have dodged a bullet if he's burnt out at 44 in the NBA.  

[Underdog 28776]

How old was Vermeil when he left the Eagles citing burnout? 

[Underdog 28776]

34 minutes ago, Js1 said:

14 and 11, I think.

Phew, to think Indiana may have dodged a bullet if he's burnt out at 44 in the NBA.  

Only time will tell if Mike Brown is a nice consolation prize. 

[Js1 85585]

2 minutes ago, Underdog said:

How old was Vermeil when he left the Eagles citing burnout? 

47 i think? 

[Underdog 28776]

^ yeah, was trying to do the math but I suck at math.  

[TommyGufano 6021]

9 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Only time will tell if Mike Brown is a nice consolation prize. 

[Underdog 28776]

GDit! 

[dcar00 14374]

2 hours ago, ztejas said:

He's given up. He gave up in game 4. He barely tried last night then left the court early. We've seen this before. This Suns team is going to whip their ass again in game 6. 

I really wonder if he's thinking about hanging it up. Maybe he's just fucking exhausted at this point. No one would blame him. If he wants to keep going this Lakers team is going to undergo a huge overhaul. 

The only thing left he could prove is catching Kareem. 

Bron Bron walks out to leave his teammates to watch the last 5 minutes of the beatdown.  A leader he is I tell ya!

[Aqua Buddha 14620]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

14 and 11, I think.

Phew, to think Indiana may have dodged a bullet if he's burnt out at 44 in the NBA.  

Stevens dodged a bullet by not going to Indiana.  That's a job with unrealistic expectations.  GM for a top level NBA team is a MUCH better gig.  College basketball is an ass whipping.

[aggie08 21533]

19 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

Bron Bron walks out to leave his teammates to watch the last 5 minutes of the beatdown.  A leader he is I tell ya!

Just out of curiosity, do you watch any basketball other than tuning in when you hear LeBron is on the verge of losing?

Edited June 2, 2021 by aggie08

[dcar00 14374]

2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Just out of curiosity, do you watch any basketball other tuning in when you hear LeBron is on the verge of losing?

just out of curiosity did you see the great Bron Bron abandon his teammates to get started on "therapy" 10 min early.  no one else needs therapy I'm sure.

[aggie08 21533]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

just out of curiosity did you see the great Bron Bron abandon his teammates to get started on "therapy" 10 min early.  no one else needs therapy I'm sure.

Thank you for your answer.

[Js1 85585]

28 minutes ago, Underdog said:

GDit! 

[Machinator 32099]

 

[d2o 1602]

5 minutes ago, Machinator said:

 

I know its the playoffs and all but a meniscus tear (even a small one) doesn't seem like it should be a day to day injury.

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

2 minutes ago, d2o said:

I know its the playoffs and all but a meniscus tear (even a small one) doesn't seem like it should be a day to day injury.

I mean- if it’s me there’s no way he’s back until a potential game 7. If you can’t beat Washington without him in one of 3 chances you deserve what you have coming to you. 

[dcar00 14374]

24 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Thank you for your answer.

you are welcome 

[Underdog 28776]

27 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Mike Brown, Mike Woodson, Mike Hunt, too many Mikes to keep up with. 

[SilasCoade 2622]

4 hours ago, ztejas said:

He's given up. He gave up in game 4. He barely tried last night then left the court early. We've seen this before. This Suns team is going to whip their ass again in game 6. 

I really wonder if he's thinking about hanging it up. Maybe he's just fucking exhausted at this point. No one would blame him. If he wants to keep going this Lakers team is going to undergo a huge overhaul. 

The only thing left he could prove is catching Kareem. 

I think he wants to play with his kid.

[ztejas 43541]

4 minutes ago, Llogg said:

I think he wants to play with his kid.

He can always come back. 

In fact - retiring to then come back and play with his kid while chasing down Kareem would be the corniest most LeBron thing ever. I almost want to call it happening.

Edited June 2, 2021 by ztejas

[SilasCoade 2622]

I also don't imagine LAL would need a huge overhaul. I don't know the status of contracts on their roster, but ignoring potential free agent losses for the moment, Schroder, Morris, Kuz, AD, and LBJ is still going to be a competitive starting 5 with Harrell off the bench as a very solid sixth man. Caruso, KCP, and Horton-Tucker all seem like replacement level players or better. If they were to make moves trying to get value for Morris and Kuz would be my first instinct.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18583]

What the fuck are you guys talking about? They are a healthy AD away from being the overwhelming favorite in the west and I'd assume even money against anybody in the east for the title. Almost every title is impacted by injury. This year is no different. It's his turn this year. And Denver's turn. And probably Philly's turn. And when Chris Paul goes down for the count, it will be his turn again like it is every year. 

He's not retiring. How else would he continue his endless crusade to tell us how great he is. His management team has (I think) every significant member of the Lakers under contract. If he retires, what happens to Klutch? Who takes them seriously without the power he wields? He's two rings behind Jordan. He's going to pass Kareem while constantly reminding us he's a pass first player. He's going to keep telling everybody how he's won the most difficult titles ever while being the most persecuted person on earth. 

That attention whore isn't going anywhere outside of maybe Cancun to ride the banana boat for a couple of weeks this summer. 

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

13 hours ago, Blotto said:

If you say so......

Dame career stats - 24.7/4.2/6.6

Dame career playoff stats - 25.2/4.5/6.1

For comparison sakes....

Steph career playoff stats -26.5/5.4/6.3

Kobe Bryant career playoff stats 25.6/5.1/4.7

I'm not saying I would take Dame over either of those players, but the playoff stats for each are pretty similar, and those other guys had a hell of a lot more help. 

With star players, it's not necessarily what stats they put up but how they do it.  Lillard shoots worse, turns the ball over more, and assists less than the regular season to the point that he's extremely inefficient.  He already is basically a defensive liability or certainly has no impact so if he's dominating the ball more, taking a lot more shots to get to the same point.  Look at his metrics and you'll see it's not a small difference, but a pronounced one.

PER:

Reg season:  22.4

Playoffs:  19.7

WS/48:

Reg season:  .179

Playoffs:  .114 (that's really not good at all)

True Shooting:

Reg Season:  58.4%

Playoffs:  56.1%

His AST% drops.  His TOV% rises.  

He's just not nearly as good in the post season and that's counting this post-season where he's been giant in this series.  And he's certainly nowhere near as good Steph.  And FTR, this isn't saying he's a bad player at all, but his game doesn't improve or stay the same in the post-season.  If top line numbers were all that mattered, Russell Westbrook is probably a top 5 guard of all-time in the post-season.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Patrick Bateman

[MNLonghornFUKM 8822]

Only time will tell if Mike Brown is a nice consolation prize. 

Lionel Hollins, Alvin Gentry, Mike D’Antoni and Ryan Saunders are front runners

(For the Celtics job )

[ztejas 43541]

49 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

What the fuck are you guys talking about? They are a healthy AD away from being the overwhelming favorite in the west and I'd assume even money against anybody in the east for the title. Almost every title is impacted by injury. This year is no different. It's his turn this year. And Denver's turn. And probably Philly's turn. And when Chris Paul goes down for the count, it will be his turn again like it is every year. 

He's not retiring. How else would he continue his endless crusade to tell us how great he is. His management team has (I think) every significant member of the Lakers under contract. If he retires, what happens to Klutch? Who takes them seriously without the power he wields? He's two rings behind Jordan. He's going to pass Kareem while constantly reminding us he's a pass first player. He's going to keep telling everybody how he's won the most difficult titles ever while being the most persecuted person on earth. 

That attention whore isn't going anywhere outside of maybe Cancun to ride the banana boat for a couple of weeks this summer. 

I dont actually think he's going to retire. I just wonder what he's thinking about in a series like this. The problem with them being a healthy AD away from anything is that AD is never healthy. He was healthy last year and it worked out great but they are never facing that row of teams again. With AD out this team is a first round exit and that's an issue. You can have stars miss time in the playoffs and still go on a run - but as currently constructed this Lakers team can't afford LeBron or AD missing really any games in the postseason. Especially not as a 7 seed without HCA trying to play uphill. I don't think LeBron enjoys playing on a squad where when his #2 goes down they are suddenly not a playoff level team. Sure they could roll the dice again but that's why they are in this mess in the first place. They did add some new pieces but they didn't add any great players and the pieces that they did add that everyone was fawning over are all shitting their pants in the first round of the playoffs. They need a 3rd option if LeBron wants any chance at extending his career and chasing Jordan. Look at Brooklyn - who would almost assuredly not be a first round exit if any of their big 3 missed the entire series and who was still the 3 seed in the East and within spitting distance of first with their stars all missing huge stretches. 

I mean, sure, run it back. I'm all for that. With LeBron and AD both another year older. See what happens. I just don't think LeBron is going to be interested in rolling the dice a third time with this setup. 

I mean shit - they gave away a game to Phoenix with both of them playing and then played a tight game 2 where Chris Paul could barely play in the 2nd half. That doesn't inspire much confidence in this roster for me. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by ztejas

[SilasCoade 2622]

14 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

With star players, it's not necessarily what stats they put up but how they do it.  Lillard shoots worse, turns the ball over more, and assists less than the regular season to the point that he's extremely inefficient.  He already is basically a defensive liability or certainly has no impact so if he's dominating the ball more, taking a lot more shots to get to the same point.  Look at his metrics and you'll see it's not a small difference, but a pronounced one.

PER:

Reg season:  22.4

Playoffs:  19.7

WS/48:

Reg season:  .179

Playoffs:  .114 (that's really not good at all)

True Shooting:

Reg Season:  58.4%

Playoffs:  56.1%

His AST% drops.  His TOV% rises.  

He's just not nearly as good in the post season and that's counting this post-season where he's been giant in this series.  And he's certainly nowhere near as good Steph.  And FTR, this isn't saying he's a bad player at all, but his game doesn't improve or stay the same in the post-season.  If top line numbers were all that mattered, Russell Westbrook is probably a top 5 guard of all-time in the post-season.

In the playoffs you're going to your studs more because you count on them to make winning plays. If you have two or three studs the game is easier for each of them. If you have one stud the game is harder for him. That's true in the regular season but even moreso in the playoffs. I don't think those numbers reflect Dame shrinking in the playoffs as much as the opposition knowing he's the only player that matters.

[ztejas 43541]

By the way - it took the Nets one series together to break the NBA playoff record for ppg by 3 teammates in one series. Beleive the figure was 85.3 ppg between them. 

A fun prop bet would be - do they break that again in this playoffs? 

[Blotto 23579]

9 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

With star players, it's not necessarily what stats they put up but how they do it.  Lillard shoots worse, turns the ball over more, and assists less than the regular season to the point that he's extremely inefficient.  He already is basically a defensive liability or certainly has no impact so if he's dominating the ball more, taking a lot more shots to get to the same point.  Look at his metrics and you'll see it's not a small difference, but a pronounced one.

PER:

Reg season:  22.4

Playoffs:  19.7

WS/48:

Reg season:  .179

Playoffs:  .114 (that's really not good at all)

True Shooting:

Reg Season:  58.4%

Playoffs:  56.1%

His AST% drops.  His TOV% rises.  

He's just not nearly as good in the post season and that's counting this post-season where he's been giant in this series.  And he's certainly nowhere near as good Steph.

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Llogg said:

In the playoffs you're going to your studs more because you count on them to make winning plays. If you have two or three studs the game is easier for each of them. If you have one stud the game is harder for him. That's true in the regular season but even moreso in the playoffs. I don't think those numbers reflect Dame shrinking in the playoffs as much as the opposition knowing he's the only player that matters.

I'm clearly a bigger Dame fan than most on this board, although admittedly I don't watch the guy play a lot. all I know is that when I watch the guy play, he's almost always the best guard on the court. His stats may not align with Stephs favorably, but he also didnt have the luxury of playing with Klay, KD, Draymond et all. If I'm picking a guard for the playoffs, I'd probably take Steph, Luka, and than Dame. Dame easily ahead of Harden, Westbrook, Kyrie....all of them.  

[shadow_operative 15932]

4 hours ago, dcar00 said:

Bron Bron walks out to leave his teammates to watch the last 5 minutes of the beatdown.  A leader he is I tell ya!

"and that's when i cemented myself as the greatest of all time."

[dcar00 14374]

8 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

"and that's when i cemented myself as the greatest of all time."

 

[Underdog 28776]

Far from a Ricky fan but love that clip. 

[Chewbacca 7787]

5 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Just out of curiosity, do you watch any basketball other than tuning in when you hear LeBron is on the verge of losing?

It's OK to call a bitch move a bitch move.

[ztejas 43541]

38 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

 

That man holds MLB records for career stolen bases and runs scored and stole 130 bases in a season. He can say whatever he wants. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by ztejas

[Chewbacca 7787]

3 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

What the fuck are you guys talking about? They are a healthy AD away from being the overwhelming favorite in the west and I'd assume even money against anybody in the east for the title. Almost every title is impacted by injury. This year is no different. It's his turn this year. And Denver's turn. And probably Philly's turn. And when Chris Paul goes down for the count, it will be his turn again like it is every year. 

He's not retiring. How else would he continue his endless crusade to tell us how great he is. His management team has (I think) every significant member of the Lakers under contract. If he retires, what happens to Klutch? Who takes them seriously without the power he wields? He's two rings behind Jordan. He's going to pass Kareem while constantly reminding us he's a pass first player. He's going to keep telling everybody how he's won the most difficult titles ever while being the most persecuted person on earth. 

That attention whore isn't going anywhere outside of maybe Cancun to ride the banana boat for a couple of weeks this summer. 

Don't forget the China cocksucking and violating COVID protocols to go to a tequila party.  And the crying about fouls.  I still can't believe he wrote a letter last year before the WC Finals against the Nuggets.  And the refs stepped right up and took care of him that series.  The Lakers with him and AD are really tough to beat.  When the refs are working for them, it's nearly impossible.

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

2 hours ago, Blotto said:

 

I'm clearly a bigger Dame fan than most on this board, although admittedly I don't watch the guy play a lot. all I know is that when I watch the guy play, he's almost always the best guard on the court. His stats may not align with Stephs favorably, but he also didnt have the luxury of playing with Klay, KD, Draymond et all. If I'm picking a guard for the playoffs, I'd probably take Steph, Luka, and than Dame. Dame easily ahead of Harden, Westbrook, Kyrie....all of them.  

Nah- you can't take Dame ahead of Harden.  Harden with a terrible Chris Paul (when he got fat before discoving veganism or HGH) took warriors to 6 and that cast kinda sucked.  Warriors raped the blazers in 4.  Harden's playoff resume is undoubtedly better than Dame's and for all the shit Harden (deservedly) catches about defense he's still better at it than Dame by virtue of not being a Hobbit. Dame proved his point against Westbrook (and Pandemic P) no doubt about that- but nobody should have Westbrooks name in their mouth when talking about elite guards.  He's really bad on defense man, and for all the big and transcendent moments he's had in the playoffs he just doesn't have much of a track record of any kind of success.  There's a reason for that. If he's your best player you are just a 6 seed kind of team and you just don't win unless you catch flukes in the playoffs.  

Has he ever made a first team?   Ever finished top 5 in MVP ballot? There's a reason for that...

[hobbes2702 13074]

2 hours ago, Blotto said:

 

I'm clearly a bigger Dame fan than most on this board, although admittedly I don't watch the guy play a lot. all I know is that when I watch the guy play, he's almost always the best guard on the court. His stats may not align with Stephs favorably, but he also didnt have the luxury of playing with Klay, KD, Draymond et all. If I'm picking a guard for the playoffs, I'd probably take Steph, Luka, and than Dame. Dame easily ahead of Harden, Westbrook, Kyrie....all of them.  

Dame over Harden is crazy talk 

[dcar00 14374]

Just now, ztejas said:

That man holds MLB records for career stolen bases, runs scored and stole 130 bases in a season. He can say whatever he wants. 

I know but the clip is pretty funny.    slide step says hi BTW.

[dcar00 14374]

12 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

It's OK to call a bitch move a bitch move.

leave it be.  aggy08 defender of the LeBron-faith

[aggie08 21533]

14 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

leave it be.  aggy08 defender of the LeBron-faith

Oh fuck off. I'm critical of LeBron all the damn time. I just find it humorous when all the losers--who never otherwise post on NBA threads--come out of the woodwork when they find out that LeBron is down 20 in a basketball game to pile on for largely political reasons.

[Blotto 23579]

10 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Dame over Harden is crazy talk 

Not to me. Harden may be the more  skilled player, but he's also  kind of a fuckstick. neither of of them have a finals appearance, so relatively  little postseason  success for both. They met one time in the playoffs ('14) in a season where it was  a 4(houston)/5(portland) matchup and portland won 4-2. 

Quote

They met the Portland Trail Blazers in the first round, but the presences of Howard and Harden were not enough as Houston fell in six games, thanks to a Damian Lillard series-clinching three pointer in Game 6.

They are both great players who have never been on great teams. comparable career stats. I just happen to think Dame is more of  leader then Harden will ever be, which counts in my book. 

[dcar00 14374]

32 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Oh fuck off. I'm critical of LeBron all the damn time. I just find it humorous when all the losers--who never otherwise post on NBA threads--come out of the woodwork when they find out that LeBron is down 20 in a basketball game to pile on for largely political reasons.

yeah so I'm on NBA threads so fuck you.  LeBron/LeFlop and the Lakers are bitches. I find it humorous when all the losers come out and try to defend LeBron and his bitch moves largely for political reasons.

[aggie08 21533]

12 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

yeah so I'm on NBA threads so fuck you.  LeBron/LeFlop and the Lakers are bitches. I find it humorous when all the losers come out and try to defend LeBron and his bitch moves largely for political reasons.

Yeah, dude, if you were around these threads for more than just to make your six second LeBron drive bys, it would take you all of 5 minutes to realize that I'm far from a LeBron homer, other than pointing out that he's really, really good at basketball.

If so many people didn't beat me to the punch last night, I was going to make the observation that his effort was reminiscent of when he shamelessly took a month "off" on the basketball court to pout about having to play with IT in Cleveland. 

[Brothahorn 10087]

Nate McMillan is about to win his playoff series in his last 8 tries. All first round losses.

[Brothahorn 10087]

Oops