2021 NBA Playoffs

[aggie08 21504]

3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Both LeBron and KD were better players at 26 than Giannis is.

And they were both already far more accomplished in the playoffs. 

And the main thing, especially in the modern game, is that they could both shoot...or, at the very least, had the confidence to shoot when open.

Nothing kills an offense faster swinging the ball around to the open guy, his defender daring him to shoot from 8 ft away, and him holding it trying to decide to do with all of the open space. It just destroys everyone's rhythm and movement. 

Even in game 1 when he had 34, that kind of stagnant basketball doesn't make anyone else better. Every other super star in the league, you gameplan to stop them first and foremost as when they go, the offense goes with them. Giannis making iso layups in the half court and missing free throws while shutting everyone else down, I can live with as an opponent.

 

 

[Vic Mackey 47050]

[washparkhorn 9939]

Good game, until PHX put on the afterburners. They have shooters who were stroking it at big moments. CP3 looks healthy. Good.

When Denver plays bad D, they lose. 

Denver has a new season mission: Lose four game ones and win the title. 

Phoenix held serve.

[ztejas 43455]

Catching up on post-game interviews. Kyrie and KD's basketball IQs are both off the charts. Harden could be out for the playoffs and this team will still probably win a title. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by ztejas

[HeHateMe 886]

If Joker and DA are a wash… PHX runs away with this.  In 4 or 5.  Austin Rivers and the rookie from Argentina can’t ball with the Suns back court for 48 mins.  Also, Bridges contributed zero on offense against the Lakers. He was guarding James and with as much as he touches the ball, it has to affect your game on the other end.  Dude went off tonight when they needed a spark.  Denver is in trouble unless they make major adjustments.  

[Vic Mackey 47050]

Giannis leaves a lot to be desired when I watch. The Nets without Harden should not run you off the court. 18pts is not going to cut it. And it seems so easy to take him away.

[ztejas 43455]

First Take can be a beating but Stephen A. is on fire here 

BTW this was before game 2. So Max basically just ate a bowl of steaming horse shit. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by ztejas

[shadow_operative 15932]

1 hour ago, Mole said:

On the Giannis thing, he’s 26. At that age, neither KD nor LBJ had won a title and there were questions about their greatness and ability to lead a team to the title. Same with MJ before them.

Winning an NBA title as a young player is really, really hard, even for the best players of their generations. We call into question their ability to do something just as they’re figuring out how to do it. The playoffs are a crazy puzzle.
 

I suspect that in 10 years, the next rising young superstar will be compared unfavorably to Giannis for their inability to lead a team to titles. Or Giannis will be this generation’s hopefully less statutory rapisty Karl Malone.

KD, LBJ, and MJ at 26 > Giannis at 26.

KD and MJ >>>>>>>>> Giannis re: shooting at 26

LBJ: better than Giannis at essentially everything at 26

[HeHateMe 886]

44 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

KD, LBJ, and MJ at 26 > Giannis at 26.

KD and MJ >>>>>>>>> Giannis re: shooting at 26

LBJ: better than Giannis at essentially everything at 26

Listen, I’m not a Chicago guy or an MJ guy, but I give credit where it is due.  MJ doesn’t belong in this argument.  It’s also unfair to compare at age 26, when they came into the Association at different ages.  I get that this it is a Texas board and KD is a man amongst boys.  He’s a first ballot HOFer, but he’s not MJ.  LeBron is not MJ.  MJ averaged at least 30 ppg for 7 of his first 9 seasons.  KD and LJ have done that 4 combined times, in 31 combined seasons.  I get that there are so many other factors that contribute to stats, but MJ had a pretty complete game.  Please take him out of your future arguments.  As for the 2021 playoffs, it’ll be Nets v Suns.  Nets win in 6 without Harden.  5 with.  

[Mole 4333]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

Both LeBron and KD were better players at 26 than Giannis is.

And they were both already far more accomplished in the playoffs. 

 

37 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

KD, LBJ, and MJ at 26 > Giannis at 26.

KD and MJ >>>>>>>>> Giannis re: shooting at 26

LBJ: better than Giannis at essentially everything at 26

These are all fair points, as is the the question about how his game works in the modern NBA during the playoffs, but mid-20s superstars having holes in their games and questions about whether or not they can lead a team to a title is a pretty common story.

My guess is that in 2031, we’ll all be wondering why we’d ever ask such questions, but maybe he’ll never put it all together and KD’s NBA will be followed by the pasty Euro era a few years ahead of schedule.

[shadow_operative 15932]

20 minutes ago, HeHateMe said:

Listen, I’m not a Chicago guy or an MJ guy, but I give credit where it is due.  MJ doesn’t belong in this argument.  It’s also unfair to compare at age 26, when they came into the Association at different ages.  I get that this it is a Texas board and KD is a man amongst boys.  He’s a first ballot HOFer, but he’s not MJ.  LeBron is not MJ.  MJ averaged at least 30 ppg for 7 of his first 9 seasons.  KD and LJ have done that 4 combined times, in 31 combined seasons.  I get that there are so many other factors that contribute to stats, but MJ had a pretty complete game.  Please take him out of your future arguments.  As for the 2021 playoffs, it’ll be Nets v Suns.  Nets win in 6 without Harden.  5 with.  

i'm. it the one who chose MJ, KD, and LBJ as points of comparison; i responded to someone else who did that. you don't have to convince me of MJ's greatness.

[Fastbreak 3985]

one time when i was 11 or 12 we had an exhibition game at the House Park Gym.  We had a local team that had never really played together vs this team from the valley who travelled all around and played all the time.  They came out pressing us full court and fast breaking with passing exhibitions. I remember they called the game a bit after halftime with the score like 90-10. That game was closer than the nets/bucks game...

[HeHateMe 886]

14 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

i'm. it the one who chose MJ, KD, and LBJ as points of comparison; i responded to someone else who did that. you don't have to convince me of MJ's greatness.

Fair enough.  I might be far from sober, but I still like to keep it real.  You were the wrong person to call out.  Mole, on the other hand, is very uniformed if he wants to compare those 4.  Today’s NBA is very different.  Giannis, KD, LBJ would have all thrived in yesterday’s NBA.  They are all studs and all stars in any generation.  MJ owns them all.  On any court, any generation, any year.  As it stands for this year… G doesn’t have the supporting cast.  Nets are way to top heavy and have way too many capable role players.  If this thing gets to 5 it’ll be a surprise, and that’s with JH in street clothes.

[Mole 4333]

55 minutes ago, HeHateMe said:

Listen, I’m not a Chicago guy or an MJ guy, but I give credit where it is due.  MJ doesn’t belong in this argument.  It’s also unfair to compare at age 26, when they came into the Association at different ages.  I get that this it is a Texas board and KD is a man amongst boys.  He’s a first ballot HOFer, but he’s not MJ.  LeBron is not MJ.  MJ averaged at least 30 ppg for 7 of his first 9 seasons.  KD and LJ have done that 4 combined times, in 31 combined seasons.  I get that there are so many other factors that contribute to stats, but MJ had a pretty complete game.  Please take him out of your future arguments.  As for the 2021 playoffs, it’ll be Nets v Suns.  Nets win in 6 without Harden.  5 with.  

I brought MJ into this as the extreme example of what we so often see. In hindsight, MJ is some kind of otherworldly champion, but at 26, his reputation was that of a stat stuffer who couldn’t get past the great teams of his era. That was the MJ of my youth, not the guy who would surely will his team to victory.

Dirk’s clutch play in contrast with LBJ disappearing in the 4th quarter was Lebron’s legacy until it wasn’t. Now he’s maybe the second best ever; then he was a superstar but also a punchline to lots of jokes.

At 26, KD’s Thunder choked away a 3-1 lead. Now he’s an unstoppable force. He’s coming off a career-ending injury, just lost his MVP-winning #2 teammate, and it doesn’t seem to matter.

The criticisms of Giannis, which are fair right now, could be tweaked and made of many all-time great superstars at the same age. We forget how young 26 is in NBA terms.

I make the MJ, KD, LBJ comparisons only because there’s a reasonable chance that Giannis will be the guy after the decline of KD. Maybe he’ll instead be the guy who’s not quite good enough, but he’s a pretty reasonable candidate for the next unstoppable force — and we shouldn’t be surprised that he’s not that guy quite yet.

There’s varying levels of greatness among MJ, LBJ, and KD, but the comparison seems apt for a guy who doesn’t seem to be quite there yet. Maybe they were closer, but they weren’t there either.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Mole

[d2o 1602]

12 hours ago, Brothahorn said:

This is looking like a 1 vs 8 playoff series.

Poster who said that Harden was a luxury and that the Nets should have kept Allen was right.

Hmmmm........wonder who that was........

[Mitch Cumsteen 18550]

I'm not making any grand Giannis proclamations either way, but I do think it's fair to point out that he didn't start playing basketball until he was something like 13 or 14 years old compared to KD and LBJ who were probably dribbling basketballs in their diapers.  So maybe the age/experience argument isn't exactly apples to apples. The guy is on a pretty steep developmental curve.  Reps matter, pretty much more than anything elseand  especially when it comes to shooting a basketball. 

With regard to the rest of the series, let's see how Brooklyn's bench performs on the road. As great as KD is, it's really the other guys that are killing the Bucks. It may not make a difference. IIRC Milwaukee was either the worst or second worst three point defense in the league this year. I don't know what Bud is doing but that's problem, especially against Brooklyn when Joe Harris is just sitting out there while Kyrie and KD break everything else down. And I also don't know what to make out of Blake Griffin. He has looked so washed for the last however many years. It's probably about time for him to get hurt again.

 

[d2o 1602]

6 hours ago, Mole said:

I brought MJ into this as the extreme example of what we so often see. In hindsight, MJ is some kind of otherworldly champion, but at 26, his reputation was that of a stat stuffer who couldn’t get past the great teams of his era. That was the MJ of my youth, not the guy who would surely will his team to victory.

Dirk’s clutch play in contrast with LBJ disappearing in the 4th quarter was Lebron’s legacy until it wasn’t. Now he’s maybe the second best ever; then he was a superstar but also a punchline to lots of jokes.

At 26, KD’s Thunder choked away a 3-1 lead. Now he’s an unstoppable force. He’s coming off a career-ending injury, just lost his MVP-winning #2 teammate, and it doesn’t seem to matter.

The criticisms of Giannis, which are fair right now, could be tweaked and made of many all-time great superstars at the same age. We forget how young 26 is in NBA terms.

I make the MJ, KD, LBJ comparisons only because there’s a reasonable chance that Giannis will be the guy after the decline of KD. Maybe he’ll instead be the guy who’s not quite good enough, but he’s a pretty reasonable candidate for the next unstoppable force — and we shouldn’t be surprised that he’s not that guy quite yet.

There’s varying levels of greatness among MJ, LBJ, and KD, but the comparison seems apt for a guy who doesn’t seem to be quite there yet. Maybe they were closer, but they weren’t there either.

Yeah those that weren't around back then don't hear this because its not even pointed out now but this was very real.   MJ was seen as just a scorer who couldn't get his team over the top.   He was seen as  tier below Magic and Bird.   Then all of a sudden he wasn't.

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by d2o

[d2o 1602]

25 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I'm not making any grand Giannis proclamations either way, but I do think it's fair to point out that he didn't start playing basketball until he was something like 13 or 14 years old compared to KD and LBJ who were probably dribbling basketballs in their diapers.  So maybe the age/experience argument isn't exactly apples to apples. The guy is on a pretty steep developmental curve.  Reps matter, pretty much more than anything elseand  especially when it comes to shooting a basketball. 

With regard to the rest of the series, let's see how Brooklyn's bench performs on the road. As great as KD is, it's really the other guys that are killing the Bucks. It may not make a difference. IIRC Milwaukee was either the worst or second worst three point defense in the league this year. I don't know what Bud is doing but that's problem, especially against Brooklyn when Joe Harris is just sitting out there while Kyrie and KD break everything else down. And I also don't know what to make out of Blake Griffin. He has looked so washed for the last however many years. It's probably about time for him to get hurt again.

 

This too.   Even when he actually got to the league he was seen as a project (at best!) as opposed to LBJ and KD who were very known entities and assumed to be the future of their respective franchises from before they were even drafted.     Giannis has been a disappointment in the upper levels of the playoffs but to say anything but he is WAY ahead of the curve at 26 is being too short sighted.   He still has at least 3-4 more yrs of growth and then probably another 3-4 of top level plateau.   His book is far from written.

[aggie08 21504]

Oh, I still love Giannis. He didn't award himself the MVP, and he's kept his head down and stayed pretty humble...which is at least partially why he hasn't had the same backlash as other superstars. But, if we're talking about him ever being THE next guy that you know the title has to go through for the next however many years, I just don't see it. It's hard to picture him ever being a >35% confident shooter from behind the arc.

People use Kawhi as the "see, you can re-learn how to shoot" go to example. But watch his tape at SDSU: he had a pretty solid base and stroke already; he just needed to tweak a few things and gain consistency. Giannis needs a full rebuild to try to catch up to guys who have been mastering their shots since they were 12 years old. I don't think there reps and gym time has ever been as issue with Giannis, but he's way behind the curve.

[Message Board User 12395]

Giannis is basically a 6’11” Russell Westbrook.

[ztejas 43455]

3 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

As great as KD is, it's really the other guys that are killing the Bucks.

Their role players killing the Bucks is not mutually exclusive from Durant being a good player. 

Meaning - Durant is doing a very good job moving the ball and opening up the floor for his teammates. The role guys on those great 2016 and 2017 Cavs teams showed up consistently because everyone on that team bought in and held each other up and played selfless basketball. The Nets are doing the same thing. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by ztejas

[closetohumping 17442]

10 hours ago, Mole said:

I brought MJ into this as the extreme example of what we so often see. In hindsight, MJ is some kind of otherworldly champion, but at 26, his reputation was that of a stat stuffer who couldn’t get past the great teams of his era. That was the MJ of my youth, not the guy who would surely will his team to victory.

Dirk’s clutch play in contrast with LBJ disappearing in the 4th quarter was Lebron’s legacy until it wasn’t. Now he’s maybe the second best ever; then he was a superstar but also a punchline to lots of jokes.

At 26, KD’s Thunder choked away a 3-1 lead. Now he’s an unstoppable force. He’s coming off a career-ending injury, just lost his MVP-winning #2 teammate, and it doesn’t seem to matter.

The criticisms of Giannis, which are fair right now, could be tweaked and made of many all-time great superstars at the same age. We forget how young 26 is in NBA terms.

I make the MJ, KD, LBJ comparisons only because there’s a reasonable chance that Giannis will be the guy after the decline of KD. Maybe he’ll instead be the guy who’s not quite good enough, but he’s a pretty reasonable candidate for the next unstoppable force — and we shouldn’t be surprised that he’s not that guy quite yet.

There’s varying levels of greatness among MJ, LBJ, and KD, but the comparison seems apt for a guy who doesn’t seem to be quite there yet. Maybe they were closer, but they weren’t there either.

No, I think it could be a guy like Zion, Luka, Trae Young, Ja, etc.  

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

2 hours ago, Message Board User said:

Giannis is basically a 6’11” Russell Westbrook.

Lol wut. Giannis is actually pretty efficient, not a chucker like Russ. And Giannis a much better defender. 

Main thing is the Nets are absolutely lighting it up from 3 so far and the Bucks have been ice cold. 

99% of the time you at least need two superstars to win a ring and the Bucks have some really good players but no other star. 

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Even the great MJ and Lebron needed a 2nd star. MJ with Pippen and Lebron with Wade/Bosh, Kyrie Irving, and Anthony Davis.

Sure Giannis improving his shooting will help but he needs needs star #2 like Steph, KD and Bron have had.

[Vic Mackey 47050]

...

[d2o 1602]

OMG hahaahhahahahahahahaha

 

 

[ztejas 43455]

1 hour ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Main thing is the Nets are absolutely lighting it up from 3 so far and the Bucks have been ice cold. 

They're shooting 45% through 2 games from 3. And on mostly good, open looks. Wonder if Patrick Bateman still doubts they'll shoot 40% on the series. 

[ztejas 43455]

1 hour ago, closetohumping said:

No, I think it could be a guy like Zion, Luka, Trae Young, Ja, etc.  

I'm a frequent Tatum doubter but he and Booker could be on that trajectory too. If Embiid could stay healthy he's right there as well.

[Mole 4333]

1 hour ago, closetohumping said:

No, I think it could be a guy like Zion, Luka, Trae Young, Ja, etc.  

Could be, but my guess is that in about five years, we’ll be hearing about how these guys don’t have what it takes to be the guy either. Then, one or two will distinguish themselves in their late 20s.

Great young players are exciting, but we get impatient and expect them to figure it out more quickly than it realistically takes.

Early 20s stars can turn into mid 20s regular season MVPs who don’t seem to have it in the playoffs. Then some of them figure it out (and get great teammates) and we forget all of the questions.

[shadow_operative 15932]

6 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I'm not making any grand Giannis proclamations either way, but I do think it's fair to point out that he didn't start playing basketball until he was something like 13 or 14 years old compared to KD and LBJ who were probably dribbling basketballs in their diapers.  So maybe the age/experience argument isn't exactly apples to apples. The guy is on a pretty steep developmental curve.  Reps matter, pretty much more than anything elseand  especially when it comes to shooting a basketball. 

With regard to the rest of the series, let's see how Brooklyn's bench performs on the road. As great as KD is, it's really the other guys that are killing the Bucks. It may not make a difference. IIRC Milwaukee was either the worst or second worst three point defense in the league this year. I don't know what Bud is doing but that's problem, especially against Brooklyn when Joe Harris is just sitting out there while Kyrie and KD break everything else down. And I also don't know what to make out of Blake Griffin. He has looked so washed for the last however many years. It's probably about time for him to get hurt again.

 

Embiid didn't touch a basketball until he was 16. absolutely unreal how talented and natural he is at this game considering how late he got started. his touch around the basket in particular just amazes me when taking this into consideration.

[HookEm 2467]

Quote

The role guys on those great? 2016 and 2017 Cavs teams

I'm not sure I would call those teams "great".  They were about average as far as NBA Finals teams go IMO.  

2016 - Cavs went 57-25 (0.695) in the regular season.  They would have probably lost 4-1 to the Warriors were it not for the Draymond nut punch.

2017 - Cavs went 51-31 (0.622) in the regular season.  Made it to the finals and lost 4-1 to the Warriors.

 

Regarding Giannis, I just don't think he makes others around him better. It is more about his style of play than anything else.  He also doesn't seem to have the ultra-elite basketball IQ that guys like LBJ, Durant, and MJ have. He doesn't seem to have a sense of the moment. Maybe that will come.

I'm surprised that people always seem to rate Giannis above Kawhi Leonard.  Kawhi can absolutely dominate a game on the defensive end... and then assassinate you on the offensive end.  By the time Kawhi was 26 yrs old, he had won TWO NBA DPoY awards, had won a title, had a Finals MVP, and had 2 1st Team NBA selections.  When Kawhi was 24-26, he was shooting 40.7% 3PT, 49.4% FG and 87.8% FT.  

[Patrick Bateman 3916]

2 hours ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Even the great MJ and Lebron needed a 2nd star. MJ with Pippen and Lebron with Wade/Bosh, Kyrie Irving, and Anthony Davis.

Sure Giannis improving his shooting will help but he needs needs star #2 like Steph, KD and Bron have had.

Agreed.  I said from the jump it's not Kris Middleton and he shouldn't be paid as such.  The Bucks sort of had their backs against the wall because Kris is one of Giannis' guys, but players generally make the worst player personnel guys or GMs.

 

[BigOrange1 6441]

4 minutes ago, HookEm said:

I'm not sure I would call those teams "great".  They were about average as far as NBA Finals teams go IMO.  

2016 - Cavs went 57-25 (0.695) in the regular season.  They would have probably lost 4-1 to the Warriors were it not for the Draymond nut punch.

2017 - Cavs went 51-31 (0.622) in the regular season.  Made it to the finals and lost 4-1 to the Warriors.

 

Regarding Giannis, I just don't think he makes others around him better. It is more about his style of play than anything else.  He also doesn't seem to have the ultra-elite basketball IQ that guys like LBJ, Durant, and MJ have. He doesn't seem to have a sense of the moment. Maybe that will come.

I'm surprised that people always seem to rate Giannis above Kawhi Leonard.  Kawhi can absolutely dominate a game on the defensive end... and then assassinate you on the offensive end.  By the time Kawhi was 26 yrs old, he had won TWO NBA DPoY awards, had won a title, had a Finals MVP, and had 2 1st Team NBA selections.  When Kawhi was 24-26, he was shooting 40.7% 3PT, 49.4% FG and 87.8% FT.  

i'd absolutely take kawhi over giannis.  no question in my mind.

[Patrick Bateman 3916]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

They're shooting 45% through 2 games from 3. And on mostly good, open looks. Wonder if Patrick Bateman still doubts they'll shoot 40% on the series. 

LOL.  My comment was taking into account they were already shooting over their regular series average and was clearly meant for the ROS, and even noted they were shooting around 45% the first 1.75 games.  Law of averages would say the shooting will even out but playoff series' are SSS and sometimes teams can remain hot for an entire series, e.g. 2014 Spurs who shot 46.6% from 3 when they averaged 39.7% during the regular season.

[Patrick Bateman 3916]

14 minutes ago, HookEm said:

I'm not sure I would call those teams "great".  They were about average as far as NBA Finals teams go IMO.  

2016 - Cavs went 57-25 (0.695) in the regular season.  They would have probably lost 4-1 to the Warriors were it not for the Draymond nut punch.

2017 - Cavs went 51-31 (0.622) in the regular season.  Made it to the finals and lost 4-1 to the Warriors.

 

Regarding Giannis, I just don't think he makes others around him better. It is more about his style of play than anything else.  He also doesn't seem to have the ultra-elite basketball IQ that guys like LBJ, Durant, and MJ have. He doesn't seem to have a sense of the moment. Maybe that will come.

I'm surprised that people always seem to rate Giannis above Kawhi Leonard.  Kawhi can absolutely dominate a game on the defensive end... and then assassinate you on the offensive end.  By the time Kawhi was 26 yrs old, he had won TWO NBA DPoY awards, had won a title, had a Finals MVP, and had 2 1st Team NBA selections.  When Kawhi was 24-26, he was shooting 40.7% 3PT, 49.4% FG and 87.8% FT.  

2017' Cavs were clearly saving for the playoffs.  Love missed 22 games, Kyrie missed 10, JR missed half the season and they added Korver midseason.  They started a guy named DeAndre Liggins 20 games during the reg season.  Who the team was in the playoffs isn't always necessarily captured with reg season record.  They were pretty offensively stout during the playoffs, when they ran through the East (admittedly weak) with a 12-1 record.

As far Giannis, I think he clearly makes guys better, he simply may not understand what is needed to win in the playoffs.  But there's a reason that guys like Forbes and Lopez shoot better with the Bucks and it's because Giannis draws attention and doubles.  Guy averaged 5.9 assists on AST% around 30%.  For comparison, his assist numbers and rate are about even or a little better than KD's, who has become a much better playmaker and who I agree is the best player in the world right now.  Giannis is a great player but not sure he knows how to win, has the horses around him or has the coaching necessary to really explode in the playoffs.  Some of that's on him, some of that is organizational support.  Kawhi learned from TD and Pop, so he definitely had a padawan phase.  I'd take Kawhi but even he was getting killed a week ago for being a vacant leader.  Giannis had time but I just wonder if he has the surrounding support.  And the dude has to fix his FT shooting.... that's totally on him.  He shot 77% one year so he can do it.

 

[ztejas 43455]

35 minutes ago, HookEm said:

I'm not sure I would call those teams "great".  They were about average as far as NBA Finals teams go IMO.  

2016 - Cavs went 57-25 (0.695) in the regular season.  They would have probably lost 4-1 to the Warriors were it not for the Draymond nut punch.

2017 - Cavs went 51-31 (0.622) in the regular season.  Made it to the finals and lost 4-1 to the Warriors.

Almost every team that makes the Finals is a great team. Especially teams that beat a 73 win Ws team. If you want to nitpick and say "well yeah they got lucky and even though they swept through the entire conference in 2017 they could only get a game off of literally the greatest playoff team ever".

There is no one as good as the 2017 Warriors this year. The Nets don't need to be that good to win the championship.

[d2o 1602]

43 minutes ago, HookEm said:

I'm not sure I would call those teams "great".  They were about average as far as NBA Finals teams go IMO.  

2016 - Cavs went 57-25 (0.695) in the regular season.  They would have probably lost 4-1 to the Warriors were it not for the Draymond nut punch.

2017 - Cavs went 51-31 (0.622) in the regular season.  Made it to the finals and lost 4-1 to the Warriors.

 

Regarding Giannis, I just don't think he makes others around him better. It is more about his style of play than anything else.  He also doesn't seem to have the ultra-elite basketball IQ that guys like LBJ, Durant, and MJ have. He doesn't seem to have a sense of the moment. Maybe that will come.

I'm surprised that people always seem to rate Giannis above Kawhi Leonard.  Kawhi can absolutely dominate a game on the defensive end... and then assassinate you on the offensive end.  By the time Kawhi was 26 yrs old, he had won TWO NBA DPoY awards, had won a title, had a Finals MVP, and had 2 1st Team NBA selections.  When Kawhi was 24-26, he was shooting 40.7% 3PT, 49.4% FG and 87.8% FT.  

Cause while playoff success is wonderful and what many judge by you cannot take seasons completely off and just show up in the playoffs no matter how well you do it.

[Machinator 32099]

Lol

 

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Think which players are "winners" and which superstars are "losers" are usually overstated by fans. 

KD just couldn't get it done with Westbrook/Harden then he got older and teamed up with a couple other superteams and now he's a winner? I mean, I guess. Don't blame him cause at the end of the day people just count rings not that you took the tougher road.

If Embiid, Luka, Giannis, Jokic teamed up with other superstars they would quickly become WINNERS. 

[d2o 1602]

 

 

[ztejas 43455]

8 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Think which players are "winners" and which superstars are "losers" are usually overstated by fans. 

KD just couldn't get it done with Westbrook/Harden then he got older and teamed up with a couple other superteams and now he's a winner? I mean, I guess. Don't blame him cause at the end of the day people just count rings not that you took the tougher road.

If Embiid, Luka, Giannis, Jokic teamed up with other superstars they would quickly become WINNERS. 

KD starting in 2011 in the playoffs - across 3 different teams - has gone:

WCF (lost to eventual champ)

NBA Finals

WCSF (only because Westbrook was injured)

WCF (lost to eventual champ)

WCF

NBA Finals - win

NBA Finals - win

NBA Finals - loss (due to injury)

And currently up 2-0 in the ECSF without his 2nd best teammate

I dont care who his teammates are - he's the 3rd  greatest winner of his generation and 4th place isn't close. If he wins a title this year I think he jumps Curry in that regard. 

KD had more playoff series wins just in OKC than Giannis has right now. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by ztejas

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Combo of KD being an all-time great and he's played with other hall of famers (Westbrook, Harden, Steph, Klay, Kyrie) his entire career.

Just saying other stars (albeit not as good as KD) have gone huge chunks of their career with no other all-star much less hall of famers to help them carry the load to make them winners in fans eyes. Ultimately fans don't care about surrounding talent so would advise any star to form a superteam for their legacy. 

 

[Vic Mackey 47050]

12 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Combo of KD being an all-time great and he's played with other hall of famers (Westbrook, Harden, Steph, Klay, Kyrie) his entire career.

Just saying other stars (albeit not as good as KD) have gone huge chunks of their career with no other all-star much less hall of famers to help them carry the load to make them winners in fans eyes. Ultimately fans don't care about surrounding talent so would advise any star to form a superteam for their legacy. 

 

Many fans do care, though. Which is why Lebron and KD (especially KD) faced backlash for their moves. KD's being the worst because he joined the 73 win team he blew a 3-1 lead to just a month later. Does it mean anything in the end or in the record books? Nope. But these players pay attention to social media and the media and all the talk shows. They love their ego being stroked. Hell, KD makes burner accounts and argues with these people. He became very hostile and defensive ever since joining GSW. Both him and Lebron were the most liked guys in the league up until their offseason moves. But Lebron's was different as he was not joining an already established team who just knocked him off and was in the Finals. That would have been him joining Boston. KD going to the Nets and forming that is more of what Lebron did in Miami and then back to Cleveland. 

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

KD and Lebron definitely got a lot of heat in the short term but in 10-15 years most casuals will mainly wonder how many rings both guys won.

No doubt the best move for Giannis' legacy would be leaving the Bucks and joining a HOF guard or two. Not staying loyal to Milwaukee and Khris Middleton.

[ztejas 43455]

22 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

he's played with other hall of famers (Westbrook, Harden, Steph, Klay, Kyrie) his entire career.

That isn't true for Kawhi, Curry and LeBron? And Harden. Even Giannis is currently on a pretty stacked team. Swap him and KD in this series and this is a different series. 

Giannis issue is not a lack of help. It's that he isn't as good as guys like Kawhi and Durant.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

 
 

Wow. Thought Steph was the odds on favorite.. not bad for a second round pick# 41

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

5 minutes ago, ztejas said:

That isn't true for Kawhi, Curry and LeBron? And Harden. Even Giannis is currently on a pretty stacked team. Swap him and KD in this series and this is a different series. 

Giannis issue is not a lack of help. It's that he isn't as good as guys like Kawhi and Durant.

Would definitely take KD and Kawhi over Giannis right now but there's no question Giannis could team up with Luka or someone and become a multiple time NBA champion and be seen as a winner. Right now fans are making fun of Giannis. There's a big drop off from hall of famers and Khris Middleton / Jrue Holiday. 

[Patrick Bateman 3916]

51 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

 

Well deserved.  Great player and arguably the best passing center ever (which would be a fun debate because the others are so diffused).

 

[ztejas 43455]

3 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

there's no question Giannis could team up with Luka or someone and become a multiple time NBA champion 

Well, yeah, there is a question because he hasn't done it yet. You're just assuming Giannis could win like Durant and LeBron have with other great players but the problem is that Durant and LeBron have already proven they can do that. No title is a guarantee. I don't care how stacked your team is. Ask the 2016 Warriors or 2019 Warriors or 2011 Heat. Or the 2008 Celtics that only won one. 

LeBron and AD won one and then flamed out the next year. Running it back is hard. Especially running it back as the best player on your team and winning FMVP. I believe only 6 guys have ever done it. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by ztejas

[Mole 4333]

Since Bird and Magic won titles as young pros in the early 80s, very few players have been the main guy on their team and won a title before age 27.

Using Finals MVP as a proxy for being the guy on a championship team (with a few exceptions like the Warriors first run):

Steph was 26 (didn’t win Finals MVP but obviously was the main star).

DWade was 24, but he also had a hobbling Shaq.

Duncan was 22 but had an aging superstar teammate and a well constructed team. Same with Kawhi.

Tony Parker was 24 when he won the Finals MVP, but it was obviously TD’s team.

Dumars was 25, but it was Zeke’s team, who was 27.

Then you have Magic and Bird who did it young.

Jordan, LBJ, Hakeem, Shaq, KD, Dirk, Zeke, all couldn’t win the big one until they were at least 27. Kobe didn’t do it without Shaq until he was 30.

So in the last 35 years, the only guys who were led their team to a title before age 27 were Steph, DWade, and the Spurs.