2021 NBA Playoffs

[d2o 1,602]

3 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Monty Williams has had to make zero adjustments so far in any series. Just rolls out the same lineup and they win. 

Hard to say one way or another on him. Dunking on his haters seems premature. 

Uhhhh.........he just lost his most important player.   That's a pretty large adjustment

[ztejas 43,546]

7 minutes ago, d2o said:

Uhhhh.........he just lost his most important player.   That's a pretty large adjustment

Not really. You just start Payne and run the same shit. Not having CP isn't ideal but it's a lot easier than not having Kawhi if you're Lue and the Clippers. 

In fact - when the Lakers series was still competitive - I beleive I called Monty out for not making any adjustments or some obvious changes. Once AD was out it didn't matter. 

[ChiTownDoc 21,175]

9 minutes ago, d2o said:

Uhhhh.........he just lost his most important player.   That's a pretty large adjustment

Yep.  And CP3 isn’t even on the bench - if he was I guarantee everyone would be crediting him with that ridiculous play call to win.  

[Catdaddyhorn 3,447]

16 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Ryan McDonough should get most of the credit for their success imo.

Why? What did he have to do with hiring Williams or several of the free agents acquisitions Jones has made since becoming the GM (btw Jones was hired in 2017 so he was also there for many of the things you want to give credit to McDonough for. Not to mention he drafted Cameron Johnson who he was absolutely ridiculed for. 

 

As for Williams not being a factor in Phoenix recent rise. 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Catdaddyhorn

[d2o 1,602]

Just now, Catdaddyhorn said:

Why? What did he have to do with hiring Williams or several of the fee agents acquisitions Jones made since becoming the GM (btw Jones was hired in 2017 so he was also there for many of the things you want to give credit to McDonough for. 

 

As for Williams not being a factor in Phoenix recent rise. 

 

 

McDonough drafted Booker and Ayton (I think) but those two alone didn't do shit before last yr so no to him getting most the credit.

[d2o 1,602]

5 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Not really. You just start Payne and run the same shit. Not having CP isn't ideal but it's a lot easier than not having Kawhi if you're Lue and the Clippers. 

In fact - when the Lakers series was still competitive - I beleive I called Monty out for not making any adjustments or some obvious changes. Once AD was out it didn't matter. 

So losing your PG and leader isn't a big deal?    He's fortunate that Payne has played well but even starting him throws off their rotations and forces him to play guys that wouldn't normally be playing like E'tuan Moore

[ztejas 43,546]

3 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Why? What did he have to do with hiring Williams or several of the fee agents acquisitions Jones made since becoming the GM (btw Jones was hired in 2017 so he was also there for many of the things you want to give credit to McDonough for. 

 

As for Williams not being a factor in Phoenix recent rise. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, d2o said:

McDonough drafted Booker and Ayton (I think) but those two alone didn't do shit before last yr so no to him getting most the credit.

He also fleeced Philly for Bridges. I'm not saying Jones doesn't deserve some credit or that Monty hasn't done a good job, but the most impressive part of this Suns team is how well they are constructed and the guy that put 3 of their 5 starters on the floor is where all of that begins. 

Alao... Ayton is young and missed half of his rookie year. It's not like he was wasting away before Monty and CP showed up. 

[Catdaddyhorn 3,447]

Zach Lowe, Kevin O'Connor, and all the other ringer guys have consistently said that Phoenix has been the most well prepared team in the playoffs. And that Williams on the fly coverage adjustments have been flawless. 

[ztejas 43,546]

2 minutes ago, d2o said:

So losing your PG and leader isn't a big deal?    He's fortunate that Payne has played well but even starting him throws off their rotations and forces him to play guys that wouldn't normally be playing like E'tuan Moore

Are we pretending that they shouldn't have lost to the Clippers last night? Or is PG going 5/10 from the stripe due to some magical coaching. 

Regardless of what you think about CP3 Lue has the tougher job in this series. 

[ChiTownDoc 21,175]

5 minutes ago, d2o said:

So losing your PG and leader isn't a big deal?    He's fortunate that Payne has played well but even starting him throws off their rotations and forces him to play guys that wouldn't normally be playing like E'tuan Moore

CP3 round 2.  Clear MVP in that round:
 

Chris Paul's series against the Denver Nuggets was a masterclass in how to control a series. He had some offensive moments, to be sure, when he erupted for a flurry of midrange jumpers early in fourth quarters to create scoreboard separation. But where Paul showcased his elite level was in game management, applying his steady hand to the young Suns as they carved the Nuggets apart on almost every possession.

Paul's numbers were absurd, especially at the intensity levels that come in a postseason series: 25.5 points on 62.7% shooting, 75.0% from 3, 22-for 22 from the free throw line and an unthinkable 41-to-5 assist to turnover ratio. He took over games from the midrange, prodding and pulling Denver's defense, creating uncomfortable binds that no adjustment seemed to solve. Paul himself made more midrange jumpers (22) in the series than the entire Nuggets team (15).

He had 37 points in the closeout game and 27 the game before it. He had the spectacular 15-assist, zero-turnover game in Game 2. He was a picture of poise, the safety net the Suns looked to in every second half.

At 36 years old, there was a perception that Paul was coming to the Suns merely to be the mentor, the talisman, the leader. He was there to set a tone of professionalism and culture, to enhance the knowledge of a young team as he managed the game. But as he showed in four games against Denver, the Point God endures.

He still can rise to a place of superstardom, taking hold of a game and imparting his will onto it.

[Catdaddyhorn 3,447]

1 minute ago, ztejas said:

 

He also fleeced Philly for Bridges. I'm not saying Jones doesn't deserve some credit or that Monty hasn't done a good job, but the most impressive part of this Suns team is how well they are constructed and the guy that put 3 of their 5 starters on the floor is where all of that begins. 

Alao... Ayton is young and missed half of his rookie year. It's not like he was wasting away before Monty and CP showed up. 

Jones was working as  the VP of Basketball Ops when McDonough made those moves. I'm guessing there's a reason Sarver moved McDonough out and elevated Jones. 

[ztejas 43,546]

3 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

And that Williams on the fly coverage adjustments have been flawless. 

Like what? 

[d2o 1,602]

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Are we pretending that they shouldn't have lost to the Clippers last night? Or is PG going 5/10 from the stripe due to some magical coaching. 

Regardless of what you think about CP3 Lue has the tougher job in this series. 

So we are counting "should haves" as losses?   It was a close game and he made quite a few good play calls coming out of timeouts with one of them being the one that won the game.    Not sure how that is supposed to be a strike against him.

[ztejas 43,546]

1 minute ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Jones was working as  the VP of Basketball Ops when McDonough made those moves. I'm guessing there's a reason Sarver moved McDonough out and elevated Jones. 

Alright well we're just splitting hairs then. The point was that I'd give the credit to their roster management over Williams. Whether that's Jones or McDonough isn't really the point - I was just trying to keep the timeline accurate.

[ztejas 43,546]

5 minutes ago, d2o said:

So we are counting "should haves" as losses?   It was a close game and he made quite a few good play calls coming out of timeouts with one of them being the one that won the game.    Not sure how that is supposed to be a strike against him.

The point is they got lucky last night and this series could easily be 1-1. If that were the case I doubt we'd have people claiming Williams is the best coach in the NBA. 

Devin Booker had a freaking 40 point triple double in game 1. Is that coaching?

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,592]

8 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Jones was working as  the VP of Basketball Ops when McDonough made those moves. I'm guessing there's a reason Sarver moved McDonough out and elevated Jones. 

I have no dog in this hunt, but Robert Sarver shouldn't be credited with anything other than being one of the worst owners in professional sports. 

[d2o 1,602]

3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

The point is they got lucky last night and this series could easily be 1-1. If that were the case I doubt we'd have people claiming Williams is the best coach in the NBA. 

Devin Booker had a freaking 40 point triple double in game 1. Is that coaching?

Making him the primary ballhandler/play maker instead of Payne after losing Paul is not?   Booker had to make the plays but yes putting him in the position to do so is absolutely coaching.

[ztejas 43,546]

7 minutes ago, d2o said:

Making him the primary ballhandler/play maker instead of Payne after losing Paul is not?   Booker had to make the plays but yes putting him in the position to do so is absolutely coaching.

I just don't give coaches credit for players being amazing. I never have and never will. I think most coaches in the NBA are largely replaceable and I haven't seen enough from Monty yet to tell me he's in that elite tier where you drop everything and hire the guy if he's on the market. Some teams have coaches that are objectively terrible, some teams have really transcendent coaches that completely change their outlook, and most teams have perfectly average coaches. 

[BigOrange1 6,471]

1 hour ago, Firemans4Horn said:

Ayton, Luka, Trae

 

That's going to go down as an all-time draft class. Lol Sacremento drafting Bagley.

SGA and michael porter jr too.

[Machinator 32,099]

46 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Not really. You just start Payne and run the same shit.

Saying "you just start Payne" completely minimizes the fact that Payne was out of the NBA a year ago. The Suns revitalized his career.

[Loch Ness Monster 3,533]

Would give the Suns front office most of the credit but who knows. 

Feel like coaching really comes into play when you have the slightly worse team and the coaches adjustments wins the series. Suns have had the best talent in all their matchups so far (after injuries) so hard to discredit that any average head coach wouldn't have the Suns winning in the WCF.  

Maybe Doc Rivers & Frank Vogel are great minds as well. Won a championship.

[ztejas 43,546]

10 minutes ago, Machinator said:

Saying "you just start Payne" completely minimizes the fact that Payne was out of the NBA a year ago. The Suns revitalized his career.

The topic was adjustments. You have a starting PG and a backup PG. Your starter goes out so you start your backup. Payne's revitalization has been huge - are we attributing that to Monty Williams? Does he have a history of turning player's careers around? 

Ayton and Booker were great players before Williams showed up. 

[d2o 1,602]

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

The topic was adjustments. You have a starting PG and a backup PG. Your starter goes out so you start your backup. Payne's revitalization has been huge - are we attributing that to Monty Williams? Does he have a history of turning player's careers around? 

Ayton and Booker were great players before Williams showed up. 

the starter and the backup dont play the same game.     Payne has been great but as I mentioned in game 1 Booker was on the ball a whole lot more than he normally is when Paul is healthy.   That is an adjustment.   Booker didn't just decide to handle the ball more.  

[Vic Mackey 47,163]

[Vic Mackey 47,163]

Damn lol

[ztejas 43,546]

29 minutes ago, d2o said:

the starter and the backup dont play the same game.     Payne has been great but as I mentioned in game 1 Booker was on the ball a whole lot more than he normally is when Paul is healthy.   That is an adjustment.   Booker didn't just decide to handle the ball more.  

Giving Devin Booker the ball more is a pretty low bar for me. Payne in 2 games so far has had 18 assists to 1 turnover. If you want to give Monty credit for Payne turning his career around and playing 2 great games without CP to start this series that's fine but I'm not sure I buy that. First and foremost I'd like to give credit to Cameron Payne. 

[d2o 1,602]

3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Giving Devin Booker the ball more is a pretty low bar for me. Payne in 2 games so far has had 18 assists to 1 turnover. If you want to give Monty credit for Payne turning his career around and playing 2 great games without CP to start this series that's fine but I'm not sure I buy that. First and foremost I'd like to give credit to Cameron Payne. 

So before it was put Payne in and run the same shit.   Now it's giving the ball to Booker wasn't anything.   I'm not saying Monty is Phil or anything but acting like he is just rolling the ball out and hoping for the best is just silly.

 

I give most of the credit to Payne.   He put in the work to recognize his flaws and get better.   That said Monty had to trust him enough to put him out there last yr.   Trust and confidence from your coach can definitely bring out the best in players.  

 

[Loch Ness Monster 3,533]

There are some sports where coaching is huge but in the NBA the margins are pretty small usually. The players run the league. 

Need a Tim Duncan, Lebron, MJ, Steph Curry, Giannis, CP3 etc or you will most likely be fired within three seasons and no one will ever hear from you again. Can be the brightest mind that's ever coached but if you don't catch some luck along the way you're screwed. 

Coach Pop is garbage now or maybe he lost three hall of famers. 

[Brothahorn 10,087]

Monty Williams is fine. He has a perfectly constructed roster playing with HCA in every round against a fairly watered down West. And he has Chris Paul... most NBA coaches should be able to get this Suns team where they are and I think most would. 
I've been more impressed with McMillan and Lue so far this postseason. Those are the bigger standouts for me. 

I disagree that most NBA coaches can get this team there. The personalities have to mesh and they all have to be on the same page.

Your guy McMillan was fired last year because he couldn't get out of the first round. And kept getting swept. Now this same team that got another coach fired is playing lights out for him. Coaches and the players have to mesh.

Give Monty his due. There are a lot of coaches who know the game frontwards and backwards but would not have Phoenix playing at this level.

[ztejas 43,546]

1 hour ago, d2o said:

So before it was put Payne in and run the same shit.   Now it's giving the ball to Booker wasn't anything.   I'm not saying Monty is Phil or anything but acting like he is just rolling the ball out and hoping for the best is just silly.

 

I give most of the credit to Payne.   He put in the work to recognize his flaws and get better.   That said Monty had to trust him enough to put him out there last yr.   Trust and confidence from your coach can definitely bring out the best in players.  

 

Fair enough. Monty basically got dealt a monster Spades hand. You have to play it right and not fuck it up - but assuming you do that you're sitting pretty. 

3 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Your guy McMillan was fired last year because he couldn't get out of the first round. And kept getting swept. Now this same team that got another coach fired is playing lights out for him.

 

I've never been high on McMillan. Or Monty, really. But McMillan is coaching the 5 seed with a bunch of unproven guys and just beat a mostly healthy Philly squad. No one had the Hawks in the ECF. For the Suns to not be in the WCF would have been a huge fuckup after AD went down. 

3 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

There are a lot of coaches who know the game frontwards and backwards but would not have Phoenix playing at this level.

Yeah I don't agree with that at all. I also might dissect "this level". They play at THAT level with CP on the floor. Without him they are still good but have edged the Clippers twice and got a heroic performance from Book in one of those games. It's not like they're some machine that loses Chris Paul and doesn't miss a beat. They are lucky to be up 2-0 without him. 

[Catdaddyhorn 3,447]

1 hour ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

There are some sports where coaching is huge but in the NBA the margins are pretty small usually. The players run the league. 

Need a Tim Duncan, Lebron, MJ, Steph Curry, Giannis, CP3 etc or you will most likely be fired within three seasons and no one will ever hear from you again. Can be the brightest mind that's ever coached but if you don't catch some luck along the way you're screwed. 

Coach Pop is garbage now or maybe he lost three hall of famers. 

I disagree. I think the subtleties in basketball aren't as obvious as they are in football. Thus it's more difficult for laymen like us to clearly discern where coaching makes an impact. Baseball is probably similar. 

[Loch Ness Monster 3,533]

11 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

I disagree. I think the subtleties in basketball aren't as obvious as they are in football. Thus it's more difficult for laymen like us to clearly discern where coaching makes an impact. Baseball is probably similar. 

Baseball's pretty much ran by nerds and analytics these days.

In the NBA- Lebron, Kawhi, or Steph Curry have won the last nine championships and there's been different coaches along the way. Seems a lot of NBA hall of fame coaches main skill was managing superstar egos and being lucky enough to coach a MJ, Kobe, Shaq, or Tim Duncan.

Need 1-3 superstars then surround them with defense and 3 point shooting. Run a lot of high pick and rolls to target weak defenders. 

 

 

[HookEm 2,468]

Agree regarding the 2018 NBA class. Very solid, deep class.  Love seeing Ayton step up and prove the haters wrong.  Here is how I would re-rank that class.  I bet we will see as many as 8-10 players from that class earn at least one all-star.

I still am pulling for Bamba to find the right situation and show what he can do.

1. Luka Doncic - 27.7, 8.0, 8.6 - 1st Team NBA
2. Trae Young - 25.3, 3.9, 9.4 - All-Star
3. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander - 23.7, 4.7, 5.9
4. DeAndre Ayton - 14.4, 10.5, 1.4  
5. Collin Sexton - 24.3, 3.1, 4.4
6. Michael Porter Jr. - 19.0, 7.3, 1.1
7. Jaren Jackson Jr. - 17.4, 4.6, 1.4 (2020)
8. Wendell Carter Jr - 11.2, 8.2, 1.9 
9. Marvin Bagley - 14.1, 7.4. 1.0
10. Devonte Graham - 14.8, 2.7. 5.4
11. Miles Bridges - 12.7, 6.0, 2.2
12. Mikal Bridges - 13.5, 4.3, 2.1
13. Jalen Brunson - 12.6, 3.4, 3.5
14. Mitchell Robinson - 8.3, 8.1, 0.5 
15. Mo Bamba - 8.0, 5.8. 0.8
16. Kevin Huerter - 11.9, 3.3, 3.5
17. Gary Trent Jr - 11.3, 2.6, 1.4
18. Donte DiVencenzo - 10.4, 5.8, 3.1
19. Lonnie Walker - 11.2, 2.6, 1.7
20. Grayson Allen - 10.6, 3.2, 2.2
21. Landrey Shamet - 9.3, 1.8, 1.6

[ztejas 43,546]

The plot thickens

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/sixers/monty-williams-brett-brown-suns-valley-oop-brett-brown-sixers

[ztejas 43,546]

Milwaukee -8?

Hmmm...

Bogdonavic questionable. Guess that makes sense. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by ztejas

[naija 2,869]

10 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Don't get me wrong, the playoffs have been fun...

...but having more than one of the top 15ish players in the league still playing would be cool too.

 

I agree, but for all the hand-wringing about this and the lack of "big market teams", it's been a ratings bonanza.

[ztejas 43,546]

1 minute ago, naija said:

it's been a ratings bonanza.

You mean when the Nets and Philly were still in it?

We'll see how it closes. I anticipate the Finals to be pretty bad ratings wise - although I'd loved to be proven wrong. 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

this is an awesome video of the Ayton game winner, one which includes a stunned and silent SAS and Michael Wilbon:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQeRP1DrDfl/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by shadow_operative

[Buzzrock 14,948]

Go Hawks

[Message Board User 12,396]

25 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

this is an awesome video of the Ayton game winner, one which includes a stunned and silent SAS and Michael Wilbon:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQeRP1DrDfl/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

thanks. it's weird that we still can't embed IG.

[ztejas 43,546]

2 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

thanks. it's weird that we still can't embed IG.

I don't think it's that hard of a fix. It broke awhile ago and Imma never fixed it. I brought it up when it quit working.

[Prepuce of Doom 21,106]

Kevin Huerter looks like he spends all of his time off-court sitting in a dark closet eating pumpkin directly out of the can.

[Message Board User 12,396]

 

[Message Board User 12,396]

 

[Message Board User 12,396]

WTF Giannis shooting a fadeaway when manned up by...Trae Young?   GTFO.

[aggie08 21,555]

Trae Young just purposely went off glass for an alley oop in half court offense. Dude is special.

[ztejas 43,546]

I told y'all I liked Atlanta to cover.

[Zepol87 9,195]

Just now, aggie08 said:

Trae Young just purposely went off glass for an alley oop in half court offense. Dude is special.

Yea that was pretty badass

[Message Board User 12,396]

Young is doing whatever the hell he wants this game.

It's almost...Steph-like.