2021 NBA Playoffs

[hobbes2702 13029]

5 minutes ago, d2o said:

It was pretty widely known that if they didnt get over the hump this yr he was gone.     He had some pretty terrible performances throughout these playoffs.   Not sure what exactly you are expecting.  [b]  He can win a title and still not be a great coach.   [/b]

See Vogel, Frank and Rivers, Doc

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Say you are the Bucks owner and the GM walks into your office with this:

"I know we just won a championship and Giannis / the team like Coach Bud but I have him rated as the 16th best coach in the NBA and we have the 8th best NBA head coach waiting to step in. Should we fire Coach Bud?"

 

Think any reasonable owner would say Giannis would be pissed, fuck off.

[hobbes2702 13029]

1 minute ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Say you are the Bucks owner and the GM walks into your office with this:

"I know we just won a championship and Giannis / the team like Coach Bud but I have him rated as the 16th best coach in the NBA and we have the 8th best NBA head coach waiting to step in. Should we fire Coach Bud?"

 

Think any reasonable owner would say Giannis would be pissed, fuck off.

And if they didn’t win the championship this season then you might have an actual point there.

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Say you are the Bucks owner and the GM walks into your office with this:

"I know we just won a championship and Giannis / the team like Coach Bud but I have him rated as the 16th best coach in the NBA and we have the 8th best NBA head coach waiting to step in. Should we fire Coach Bud?"

 

Think any reasonable owner would say Giannis would be pissed, fuck off.

What part of "He just won a title, he will be back.   He deserves that."  did you miss?

[UpperWestside 6160]

5 hours ago, d2o said:

Yeah, that take was...........................something.

I do not enjoy watching Harden. I do not enjoy watching Booker. Watching both is an exercise in frustration and there are better ways to spend an evening than watching someone play that you do not enjoy. We have plenty of people here who did not like watching Kobe play.  That's fine too. To each their own. I can get plenty of frustrating moments tuning in and watching Kyle Kuzma attempt to live up to his self-billed 25ppg potential that will never materialize.

Chris Paul has, despite my dislike of his game, made every single team better he has been on. I never pulled for him to win on any of those team. He came to Phoenix and rescued the Suns. He was the biggest reason they went to the Finals. Take him away and you've got a team that exits in the first round. 

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Hot take but I think most coaches regarded as elite are overrated when it comes to giving them credit for championships in general. If Coach Pop didn't have Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard, Tony Parker, and Ginobili would anyone regard him as elite? I say no even though he seems smarter than 90% of coaches.

There's probably plenty of awesome basketball minds out there that just never had the hall of fame talent so no one cares about them. Is Phil Jackson a genius or did he just vibe with super duper stars like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq.

[Blotto 23488]

5 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Hot take but I think most coaches regarded as elite are overrated when it comes to giving them credit for championships in general. If Coach Pop didn't have Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard, Tony Parker, and Ginobili would anyone regard him as elite? I say no even though he seems smarter than 90% of coaches.

There's probably plenty of awesome basketball minds out there that just never had the hall of fame talent so no one cares about them. Is Phil Jackson a genius or did he just vibe with super duper stars like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq.

I can get onboard with that line of thinking. I just find it amusing that people think Bud's performance was so egregiously poor. I discount the fucked up covid bubble season for a lot of reasons. So that leaves us with  two full seasons under Bud in Milwuakee. In the first of those they lost in the conference finals, and in the second full season he won it all. What a colossal fuckup that hire was!

Should have gone with Rick Carlisle and his glorious 10 playoff wins over the last 10 seasons, lulz. 

[hobbes2702 13029]

4 minutes ago, Blotto said:

I can get onboard with that line of thinking. I just find it amusing that people think Bud's performance was so egregiously poor. I discount the fucked up covid bubble season for a lot of reasons. So that leaves us with  two full seasons under Bud in Milwuakee. In the first of those they lost in the conference finals, and in the second full season he won it all. What a colossal fuckup that hire was!

Should have gone with Rick Carlisle and his glorious 10 playoff wins over the last 10 seasons, lulz. 

Yea we should definitely just ignore a seasons worth of data and also do away with any sort of context. That sounds like the right way to litigate success vs failure.

[Brian Fantana 6680]

 

So you guys are mostly horns. Tell me, it's Emmanuel Acho actually this fucking stupid or is it a bit?

[Kermit 3156]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

 

So you guys are mostly horns. Tell me, it's Emmanuel Acho actually this fucking stupid or is it a bit?

That’s got to be one of the stupidest rants I’ve heard in a long time. The sponsor is legit though.

[hobbes2702 13029]

Why is he pretending that we don’t know about where Giannis came from and about his family? We’ve been hearing his story since he was drafted lol.

[Blotto 23488]

13 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Yea we should definitely just ignore a seasons worth of data and also do away with any sort of context. That sounds like the right way to litigate success vs failure.

Fine. Let's count the last three seasons in their entirety. 162 regular season wins. 31 playoff wins.  1 nba championship. How else should we litigate success vs failure? They were not the preseason favorite to win it all in any of those seasons. Which coaches performed better over the last 3 years?

 

[hobbes2702 13029]

11 minutes ago, Blotto said:

Fine. Let's count the last three seasons in their entirety. 162 regular season wins. 31 playoff wins.  1 nba championship. How else should we litigate success vs failure? They were not the preseason favorite to win it all in any of those seasons. Which coaches performed better over the last 3 years?

 

But they were the playoff favorites in two of those and were bounced by teams because they were out coached. Regular season success is cool in that it gets you better seeding for the playoffs. You seem to missing the entire point here which is that, until the last four games, Bud had been unable to make any adjustments, particularly on offense, in the playoffs. That’s why they lost. You seem to think Bud is super great because he can win regular season games. I would prefer to see him not get pantsed by Spo and Nurse in the playoffs.

Also, no one is saying he should be fired now. He should have been fired after last year in my opinion and he certainly would have been fired this year if they didn’t make the finals. 
 

Why don’t you feel this strongly about Vogel? He was a 1 seed and won the title?

Edited July 21, 2021 by hobbes2702

[d2o 1602]

34 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

 

So you guys are mostly horns. Tell me, it's Emmanuel Acho actually this fucking stupid or is it a bit?

He's an asshat. 

[d2o 1602]

28 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Why is he pretending that we don’t know about where Giannis came from and about his family? We’ve been hearing his story since he was drafted lol.

Cause it goes against the stupid ass point he is trying to make.     And the average person learned all those things about those other guys AFTER they won.   Him actually being Nigerian makes his take even more ridiculous which is quite the feat.

[Blotto 23488]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

But they were the playoff favorites in two of those and we bounced by teams because they were our coached. Regular season success is cool in that it gets you better seeding for the playoffs. You seem to missing the entire point here which is that, until the last four games, but had been unable to make any adjustments, particularly on offense, in the playoffs. That’s why they lost. You seem to think Bud is super great because he can win regular season games. I would prefer to see him not get pantsed by Spo and Nurse in the playoffs.

The argument is getting stale so here's my final thoughts on the topic. Bud has been the coach in Milwaukee for 3 seasons. During that time, he has won more games in the regular season  AND more games in the playoffs than any other coach in the league.  None of those teams were considered juggernauts like GS (SC/KD/KT/DG) or Miami (LBJ/FW/CB), so Bud's track record over the 3 years he's been in Milwaukee I would argue is the best in the NBA over that time frame. If I'm an owner I would be pretty happy with that track record. 

I guess we just  disagree on what constitutes success. In my mind, when you have the most number of wins in both the regular season and playoffs over a certain time period, I would consider that evidence that you are doing a good job. Furthermore, when I notice that the franchise had zero fucking success prior to the coach taking the job, I would consider giving that coach some of the credit for compiling that record over 3 years. Apparently other people on this thread have different opinions. Thats cool. 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

The average NBA fan is gonna look at Giannis, who didn’t bail on Milwaukee, taking the 2 trophies to Chick-fil-A the next day and be like…yes.


Waffle House would’ve been a goat love but they aren’t that far north


Lebron isn’t relatable at all.

[SilasCoade 2622]

1 hour ago, UpperWestside said:

I do not enjoy watching Harden. I do not enjoy watching Booker. Watching both is an exercise in frustration and there are better ways to spend an evening than watching someone play that you do not enjoy. We have plenty of people here who did not like watching Kobe play.  That's fine too. To each their own. I can get plenty of frustrating moments tuning in and watching Kyle Kuzma attempt to live up to his self-billed 25ppg potential that will never materialize.

Chris Paul has, despite my dislike of his game, made every single team better he has been on. I never pulled for him to win on any of those team. He came to Phoenix and rescued the Suns. He was the biggest reason they went to the Finals. Take him away and you've got a team that exits in the first round. 

My biggest beef with your take is equating Booker and Harden. I fucking hate watching James Harden play basketball. What he does is not remotely similar to what Booker does. Harden will take the inbounds from one baseline, dribble it into the frontcourt, dribble out the shot clock, and take a step back contested 3 without anyone else touching the ball. Booker will never do that.

[Drew 2403]

6 hours ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Exactly. Giannis' 1 ring means WAY more than a superteam ring.

 

6 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

The average NBA fan is gonna look at Giannis, who didn’t bail on Milwaukee, taking the 2 trophies to Chick-fil-A the next day and be like…yes.


Waffle House would’ve been a goat love but they aren’t that far north


Lebron isn’t relatable at all.

And This is why the Dirk Title is so fucking great for those of us who were there before he even was drafted, and I'll say even SWEETER since Dirk went through an extra 6-8 years of "He's not good enough to win one on his own" That Giannis didn't have to endure.

 

Either way I'm happy as shit for him. Dude's living his best life.

[d2o 1602]

26 minutes ago, Blotto said:

The argument is getting stale so here's my final thoughts on the topic. Bud has been the coach in Milwaukee for 3 seasons. During that time, he has won more games in the regular season  AND more games in the playoffs than any other coach in the league.  None of those teams were considered juggernauts like GS (SC/KD/KT/DG) or Miami (LBJ/FW/CB), so Bud's track record over the 3 years he's been in Milwaukee I would argue is the best in the NBA over that time frame. If I'm an owner I would be pretty happy with that track record. 

I guess we just  disagree on what constitutes success. In my mind, when you have the most number of wins in both the regular season and playoffs over a certain time period, I would consider that evidence that you are doing a good job. Furthermore, when I notice that the franchise had zero fucking success prior to the coach taking the job, I would consider giving that coach some of the credit for compiling that record over 3 years. Apparently other people on this thread have different opinions. Thats cool. 

Successful was not the point anyone who has had issue with him has made.   I most certainly did not.   Success does not make you a good coach.   I'm not sure why it seems that you want to conflate the two.   If you believe that just because a coach wins a lot of games then he must be good then we just fundamentally disagree and dont really need to discuss it anymore.

I mean by your measure you must think Bud is the best coach in the league since he's had the best record over the last 3 yrs.  Right?

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Steve Nash and Vogel confirmed the best NBA coaches. 

[Blotto 23488]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

Successful was not the point anyone who has had issue with him has made.   I most certainly did not.   Success does not make you a good coach.   I'm not sure why it seems that you want to conflate the two.   If you believe that just because a coach wins a lot of games then he must be good then we just fundamentally disagree and dont really need to discuss it anymore.

I mean by your measure you must think Bud is the best coach in the league since he's had the best record over the last 3 yrs.  Right?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. But I do believe he is one of the better coaches in the league. I am not a bucks fan or a Bud fan really. I just thought your statements that he was a mistake to hire, and you would have fired him after season 1  in Milwukee were fucking ridiculous. Shit, his feat of getting that 15 Hawks team to the best record in the east and the ECF might be his best coaching job so far. That team was lead by....checks notes....Teague, Millsap, and Horford plus a bunch of spares. I think the dude can coach and will have continued success. Sure he makes mistakes....they all do. 

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Most nerds overrate deciding on whether to give the 7th vs 8th guy on your roster more minutes.

Players vibing with their coach is important these days. Ty Lue would be the #1 coach right now in my book.

[d2o 1602]

15 minutes ago, Blotto said:

Now you're putting words in my mouth. But I do believe he is one of the better coaches in the league. I am not a bucks fan or a Bud fan really. I just thought your statements that he was a mistake to hire, and you would have fired him after season 1  in Milwukee were fucking ridiculous. Shit, his feat of getting that 15 Hawks team to the best record in the east and the ECF might be his best coaching job so far. That team was lead by....checks notes....Teague, Millsap, and Horford plus a bunch of spares. I think the dude can coach and will have continued success. Sure he makes mistakes....they all do. 

 

I didn't put anything in your mouth.   You said he was successful.   That was never the argument.   I said he wasn't good to which you've consistently ran down a list of his success so why would I think that you dont equate being a good coach to wins and losses?

I dont care too much about reg season wins.    My argument was and still is that he is not really a good playoff coach.   Reg season wins are nice obviously but in the playoffs where you play the same team up to 7 straight times adjustments to what you encounter are crucial.    His ability to make them has consistently been poor and has cost them playoff games and series wins.  He was outcoached by Nick Nurse and Spo the last two yrs in the playoffs.   

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Think people underestimate Canada winning an NBA chip and Milwaukee getting one.

[staboner 4969]

3 hours ago, d2o said:

Cause it goes against the stupid ass point he is trying to make.     And the average person learned all those things about those other guys AFTER they won.   Him actually being Nigerian makes his take even more ridiculous which is quite the feat.

wait! Nigeria? man all this time I thought he was from the extreme southern parts of Greece. huh. 

[Brothahorn 10087]

Shout out to Bobby Portis.

He went from the crazy sum bitch who knocked his teammate the fuck out.

To a world champ. Nice to see him taking advantage of the opportunity.

[Message Board User 12395]

Just now, Brothahorn said:

Shout out to Bobby Portis.

He went from the crazy sum bitch who knocked his teammate the fuck out.

To a world champ. Nice to see him taking advantage of the opportunity.

And he's still crazy!

[Brothahorn 10087]

 
So you guys are mostly horns. Tell me, it's Emmanuel Acho actually this fucking stupid or is it a bit?

Maybe he really is doing the Skip Bayless, say stupid shit get paid thing..

BTW, can’t remember the poster but not having Spoelstra in your top 5 is ridiculous. If he was coaching Milwaukee they would be the favorites for next year. Coaching still matters, no matter how many all stars you have.

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Lol nope. Any team with KD, Harden, Kyrie will be the favorites no matter the coach. Steve Nash is legit terrible but will win a chip.

[Brothahorn 10087]

And he's still crazy!

It’s the eyes!

[Brothahorn 10087]

Hot take but I think most coaches regarded as elite are overrated when it comes to giving them credit for championships in general. If Coach Pop didn't have Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard, Tony Parker, and Ginobili would anyone regard him as elite? I say no even though he seems smarter than 90% of coaches.
There's probably plenty of awesome basketball minds out there that just never had the hall of fame talent so no one cares about them. Is Phil Jackson a genius or did he just vibe with super duper stars like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq.

Vibing or being able to connect with your players is and always has been part of coaching. It’s not always what you can do or know. It’s what you can get the players to do that matters.

Jordan deserved the headlines. But knowing when to play Brian Williams, James Edwards, John Salley and not having ego with Rodman was a big help. Mot every coach can do that.

Spo already knows that. Nash may learn it in time.

[shadow_operative 15932]

6 hours ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Hot take but I think most coaches regarded as elite are overrated when it comes to giving them credit for championships in general. If Coach Pop didn't have Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard, Tony Parker, and Ginobili would anyone regard him as elite? I say no even though he seems smarter than 90% of coaches.

There's probably plenty of awesome basketball minds out there that just never had the hall of fame talent so no one cares about them. Is Phil Jackson a genius or did he just vibe with super duper stars like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq.

all of the greatest coaches coached the greatest players. Auerbach, Riley, Phil, Pop; Coach K, Roy, Dean Smith, Wooden, Self; Belichick, Lombardi, Knoll, Walsh; Ferguson, Guardiola, Wenger, Mourinho; the list goes on, in every sport, everywhere. there's no such thing as an all time great coach who didn't coach all time great players.

[Underdog 28565]

2 hours ago, Message Board User said:

And he's still crazy!

After all these years?

[Pam Cummings 9639]

Yeah good/great coaches get outcoached sometimes too. Just because Bud lost to Spo/Nurse doesn't make him suck.

 

Pop got outcoached by fucking Avery Johnson in a playoff series. Doesn't make him shitty.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Pam Cummings

[Vic Mackey 47010]

12 hours ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Lol nope. Any team with KD, Harden, Kyrie will be the favorites no matter the coach. Steve Nash is legit terrible but will win a chip.

The issue with their team is not talent but health. Had they had been healthy, they run through the East with no issues. And dispose of the Suns quickly, too. 

And don't forget, even after all their injuries. KD's toe being on the line was the difference in the Bucks advancing or losing yet again early in the playoffs. They will and should easily be the favorites next season to win the whole thing. I enjoyed the new blood this year but it came because of all the injuries. I just want to see the most talented teams go at it on the court rather than who survives the injury game.

[406W30th 1111]

"Is Khris Middleton good enough to be the #2 on a championship team?"

[d2o 1602]

11 minutes ago, 406W30th said:

"Is Khris Middleton good enough to be the #2 on a championship team?"

I've always been big on him.  Still mad the Pistons gave up on him so easily

 

[d2o 1602]

 

 

[shadow_operative 15932]

On 7/22/2021 at 8:40 AM, 406W30th said:

"Is Khris Middleton good enough to be the #2 on a championship team?"

i hate to say it, but uh, if half the league's superstars aren't out injured then the answer is still a resounding "no." his team was going to lose 4-0 or 4-1 to a healthy BK squad. KM was amazing during the Finals, and throughout most of the playoffs, no doubt. these playoffs did change my mind about him. but still, is he a legit no.2 on a title winning team? no, he is not. 

edited to add: im not going to sit here right now and draw out my top 30 or so current NBA players, but i feel extremely confident in saying that Khris Middleton would not be in consideration for my top 20. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by shadow_operative

[Vic Mackey 47010]

[HookEm 2463]

Looking at a recent NBA player power ranking, the Bucks are one of only 3 teams with 3 top-50 players.  You can argue about relative places, but it is pretty close.  When you look at something like this, you see how Utah is never going to win a title.  You have to have a top-10 player or you have no chance.  When Klay is back and those picks, the Warriors are going to be right back in the mix.

• Nets: Harden #7, Durant #9, Kyrie #16
• Bucks: Giannis #4, Middleton #27, Holiday #43
• Warriors: Curry #3, Klay #23, Draymond #38
• Lakers: Lebron #1, AD #22
• Clippers: Kawhi #2, PG13 #14
• Denver: Jokic #4, Murray #27
• Philly: Embiid #8, Simmons #32
• Phoenix: CP3 #10, Booker #13
• Portland: Lillard #15, McCollum #34
• Utah: Mitchel #20, Gobert #28

[SilasCoade 2622]

I don't know how those rankings are calculated but Simmons at #32 in the league is pretty laughable.

[hobbes2702 13029]

Who are the 21 guys better than Anthony Davis? Or the 8 better than KD? Yikes 

Edited July 24, 2021 by hobbes2702

[shadow_operative 15932]

5 hours ago, Llogg said:

I don't know how those rankings are calculated but Simmons at #32 in the league is pretty laughable.

KD at 9 is equally laughable.

[shadow_operative 15932]

Devin Booker at 13 😂😂😂. Booker is becoming my new Tim Tebow- nothing against him personally, but the way he gets perpetually overrated/the way people rush to shower him with over-the-top adulation is really getting on my last nerve. he's a very good scorer from inside the 3-point line, and that's it. he is not the 13th best player in the league.
 

[BradInATX 9208]

It’s one of those old practices meant to show that it’s just a game and we should be respectful and congratulatory towards our opponents. Once one sees the reason behind the post game handshakes, one can understand why a nut punching, all around bitch like Chris Paul wouldn’t be interested in participating.

Yeah. Maybe I'm an ok boomer. I turn 40 this year. But I always dapped the opponent up win or lose. Doesn't even have to be heartfelt or genuine but it's a nicety that keeps sports civil.

No matter what, Chris Paul is a fuckin bitch.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[BradInATX 9208]

The only free agent coach that I would have rated above Bud would be Rick Carlisle and Carlisle hasn't won a playoff series in 10 years. Who are the available coaches clearly better than Bud? List them.
Before this year LeBron or Steph had been in 9 straight finals I believe. Would lead me to say talent rules the NBA. Make them happy. Giannis likes Bud.

This will be unpopular but for most teams (Milwaukee excluded), I'd take Dantoni over Bud.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[d2o 1602]

On 7/24/2021 at 11:33 PM, BradInATX said:

This will be unpopular but for most teams (Milwaukee excluded), I'd take Dantoni over Bud.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
 

Now I've clearly been down on Bud but this is ridiculous.    The issue with Bud has been playoff performance............and you wanna take MD over him????   hahahahahahahahahaha