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2021 PGA Championship

Wally Fairway

By Wally Fairway
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C-Man

C-Man 27347

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I’ve heard two completely different stories about Phil. One says he is the greatest guy ever, and the other is that he’s Don Johnson from Tin Cup. Don’t know which is true. 

The answer lies somewhere in the middle. A lot of guys took the time to hang around and congratulate him yesterday after the win. Phil used to be very unpopular among the caddies, I think. And I think whatever animosity other players had for him has softened quite a bit. Hell, he and Tiger are buddies now.
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(csb) My daughter was a standard-bearer at the WMO Phoenix Open a few years ago.  Her group was finished and she was waiting in the security area for a ride back to the volunteer compound.  It wa

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So glad that he won, was great to be out on the course and watch him continue to rip his drives all weekend.    i followed spieth all day Thursday and it doesn’t seem like he has it back mental

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ztejas

ztejas 43741

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3 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

There are a few key differences though. Arnie was always wildly popular and the best post-Hogan golfer until Jack showed up. Phil’s popularity has always been there but has grown significantly as the witty, chatty guy that was always second fiddle to Tiger. He didn’t come into his prime until Tiger was already dominant. 

Someone alluded to it earlier in a terribly articulated post, but Phil is the golfer of his generation in a lot of other eras, and he should have at least 8 majors. This gets him closer to a place as a Top 10 golfer of all time. I go:

1. Jack

2. Tiger

3. Hogan

4. Player

5. Hagen

6. Snead

7. Palmer

Last three spots for me are between Watson, Jones, Sarazen, Phil and Byron.  I can make arguments for each.  Gun to my head, I probably go 8. Jones, 9. Nelson, 10. Sarazen, 11. Watson, 12. Phil, 13. Merry Mex.

 

I'd take Trevino over Phil still. He led the tour in scoring average 5 times and has 2 US Opens and 2 British which is an extremely short list (and 2 PGAs for good measure). Also a Players win. 

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C-Man

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11 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I think Phil has always had a smartass response that’s good natured. It probably rubbed guys the wrong way early in his career, but he’s not at all a phony, and genuinely a good dude, and that has evolved into a very likable guy. He’s a total gambling swashbuckler - on the course (until this weekend) and with money - and doesn’t even try to conceal it. The young pros LOVE him. 

With the public I think he’s very much the same way.  They love him, and when he’s it’s brought to his attention he’s talking about himself at the expense of a fan or whatever, he’ll make it right. If he’s getting big headed around another pro, he’ll double down on the ribbing. He’s a guy’s guy and people love him for it. I totally buy the autograph of the above poster’s daughter’s hat, and bet there have been countless events like that.

Only he can get away with running down a still moving ball for a putt, have Joe Buck be a bitch about it, and it goes away. Imagine Sergio or Bryson or even Jordan doing that. Plus, he brought us this moment, which is my favorite all time golfer media interaction. 

 

I also bet Phil having a G5 and all that shit before he'd ever won a major didn't sit well with some of the old guard. It doesn't matter. I got to talk to him a handful of times at the Nelson/Colonial stops back when I was a young guy at the Startle-Gram and he was always super accommodating. Got several one-on-ones with him, which never happened with somebody like Tiger. I've always been a fan.

Not to derail but his short game is nothing short of amazing -- and it was on display this weekend. Not sure if all of you watched The Match or not but one part of that early on was absolutely amazing. He was describing the shot he was going to hit around the green, it sounded outlandish and insane but damned if he didn't do exactly what he said he was going to do with the golf ball and left it right next to the hole. Unreal.

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StruggleBus

StruggleBus 3922

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20 minutes ago, C-Man said:

I also bet Phil having a G5 and all that shit before he'd ever won a major didn't sit well with some of the old guard. It doesn't matter. I got to talk to him a handful of times at the Nelson/Colonial stops back when I was a young guy at the Startle-Gram and he was always super accommodating. Got several one-on-ones with him, which never happened with somebody like Tiger. I've always been a fan.

Not to derail but his short game is nothing short of amazing -- and it was on display this weekend. Not sure if all of you watched The Match or not but one part of that early on was absolutely amazing. He was describing the shot he was going to hit around the green, it sounded outlandish and insane but damned if he didn't do exactly what he said he was going to do with the golf ball and left it right next to the hole. Unreal.

A lot of amateurs could benefit from listening to Phil's chipping advice. Weight forward, hands forward to hide the leading edge, use ball position to control trajectory. 

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Revolution512

Revolution512 1502

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17 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Nelson’s 11 in a row doesn’t get enough credit because of the perception of a war-depleted tour. People forget Snead and Hogan combined for 8 wins in 1945. If Nelson and Jones don’t end their careers earlier they’d definitely be higher. If Jack hadn’t come around when he did, Palmer would definitely be higher. If one of Snead, Hogan or Nelson weren’t around at that specific time, the other two would be higher. If Hogan doesn’t have his car crash, he might be 1 or 2 (doubtful on 1). If Player didn’t have to contend with Arnold, Jack and Lee, he could be higher.

Jack is #1 by a long shot, and Tiger and Hogan are pretty fixed on 2 and 3. I can make arguments for all the other spots. It’s pretty difficult to rank. 

You lost me at Jack #1 by a long shot. Argue him at one all you want but let’s not get stupid about it

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Sbbruin

Sbbruin 21912

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4 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Chipping becomes so much less complicated when keeping your hands in front of the club head at impact, and putting 60% weight on your front foot. I’ve seen people that I know can chip well forget this simple truth, and try and “lift” the ball. Always leads to a chunk or a blade across the green. 

You've been watching me.  Weirdo. 

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dcar00

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47 minutes ago, Revolution512 said:

Oh you’re the idiot that bases this off majors only?

Tigers 142 consecutives cuts made and Jack 3rd with 105 and 9 more wins brings him real close but to me its still Jack.  Tiger was gonna do it...but you know shit happens, and hard to have sympathy since it was his doing(not like Hogan).

Majors are how golfers measure themselves(insert Chevy Chase/Caddyshack height joke)against each other.  Even Tiger would tell you that.  Tiger wanted that record so badly.  you know why?  because it makes him #1 in the eyes of his peers.

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tx 3 putt

tx 3 putt 77920

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On 5/23/2021 at 11:10 PM, Jive Turkey said:

The one time Phil wins the second major of the year, it ain’t the US Open.

He is playing Colonial next, then taking a few weeks to prep for Torrey. He’s gonna feel really confident. 

 

much like phil, i played great at torrey, several times !

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Lidig8r

Lidig8r 1880

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On 5/25/2021 at 12:11 AM, C-Man said:


The answer lies somewhere in the middle. A lot of guys took the time to hang around and congratulate him yesterday after the win. Phil used to be very unpopular among the caddies, I think. And I think whatever animosity other players had for him has softened quite a bit. Hell, he and Tiger are buddies now.

I'm thinking that perhaps Phil was humanized quite a bit when his wife got breast cancer in 2009. The realization of the mortality of a loved one goes a long way in helping one find their soul.

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StruggleBus

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8 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Sigh. So Tiger and Snead should be in the conversation, despite Jack finishing 1 or 2 in 37 majors and winning 73 times?  Lulz. You cannot be serious. People who try to make the case for Tiger over Jack are like people who argue for LBJ over MJ or Mays over Ruth. You’re insane. 

I'd simply say this. Jack had slightly better numbers in a time where the talent level on tour was poor. 

I'd also say that Tiger at his best was unquestionably better than Jack at his best. 

Injuries and pussy kept Tiger from reaching the majors number, but don't kid yourself. He's easily the best to ever play the game. 

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Revolution512

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Had slightly better numbers?  No, he had vastly superior numbers. And when Tiger joined the tour?  He had no rival like Palmer, Watson, Trevino, or Seve.  Tiger basically had Duval and early Phil. He dominated a weak field for the majority of his majors. 

Saying Tiger’s “easily the best to ever play the game” is insanely stupid, and you should should feel bad at how dumb you are. 

This conversation isn’t for you

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Revolution512

Revolution512 1502

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1 hour ago, Hate said:

The field may have been deeper during Tiger’s reign, but there were no golfers like Watson, Trevino, Palmer, or Player to compete against.

The field isn’t really worth arguing for either IMO. It’s impossible to measure with any certainty. There were maybe two international players in Jack’s best years, Jacklin and Cheater Player. A handful of players won a very high percentage of the majors. Because they were great or because there were far fewer capable of winning then? 
 

Tiger played against MUCH deeper fields and subsequently only he claimed a high percentage of majors. Because the stars weren’t as talented as Jack’s era or because there were far more capable of winning?

 

Tiger’s margins of victory, scoring avg, win pct and major wins at his peak performance is better than Jack. Tiger’s total wins are better which is often overlooked. Arguing who’s the best player ever is dumb, it’s Tiger and nobody really disputes that. Best career, there’s an argument for several IMO. 

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Knighthawk

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12 hours ago, StruggleBus said:

I'd simply say this. Jack had slightly better numbers in a time where the talent level on tour was poor. 

I'd also say that Tiger at his best was unquestionably better than Jack at his best. 

Injuries and pussy kept Tiger from reaching the majors number, but don't kid yourself. He's easily the best to ever play the game. 

What a fucking idiot.  Tiger had his shot but pissed it away on pussy and other shit I’m not getting into.  

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pops

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Prime tiger beats prime Jack. You can argue over who had the better career after tiger took his 30s off, but tiger is the most talented golfer to ever pick up a club. And one can say that and still rank Jack #1 overall. I wouldn't. But they are not mutually exclusive. 

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dcar00

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11 hours ago, Hate said:

The field may have been deeper during Tiger’s reign, but there were no golfers like Watson, Trevino, Palmer, or Player to compete against.

this. the talent level was not poor by any fucking stretch. you have guys like Irwin, Floyd, Miller, Casper, Littler(could even add Crenshaw and Kite).

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TonyTexas

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There are very few sports where the more recent superstar isn’t better than the superstar from yesteryear. Does anyone really think that Babe Ruth was a better baseball player than Mike Trout or that Rod Laver could beat Roger Federer or that Bill Russell would dominate in today’s game?. Greatness is what you do in your era and Jack trumps Tiger in that regard. 

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Hate

Hate 20157

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And for the record, I am not discounting Tiger’s accomplishments. I always cheered for him to win because it was history. I wanted to see him chase down Jack. I was a little too young for Jack’s heyday. I didn’t really start watching the Majors regularly until the mid 80’s. I wanted to see history. That 2000-2001 stretch of the Tiger Slam is up there with my all time great sports memories. It was incredible to watch and I wanted it to continue. I never really cared about the personal stuff as I don’t hold athletes to any hero standard. Sure, I probably appreciate a family man more than a serial cheater, but none of what Tiger did was illegal. Stupid, but we’ve all done stupid shit. But the fact of the matter is that Tiger didn’t get to 19. It’s his own damn fault for that too, which sucks. I was cheering for him to do it.

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dcar00

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1 hour ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Field was weak during Tiger’s reign. I’m not sure it would’ve mattered - Tiger was that good. He was he really battling?  Leonard, Els, Duval, DLIII?  Vijay a little later?  Good players - not Watson, Palmer, Player, Lee, Seve. Tiger basically had a few Greg Normans and Johnny Millers. Els, Vijay and even early Phil were great golfers. But during his run of dominance there was no real depth like there is today. The depth of the tour today is insane. 

you forgot Bob May...

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dcar00

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2 hours ago, pops said:

Prime tiger beats prime Jack. You can argue over who had the better career after tiger took his 30s off, but tiger is the most talented golfer to ever pick up a club. And one can say that and still rank Jack #1 overall. I wouldn't. But they are not mutually exclusive. 

from a pure talent perspective, some might say Hogan or possibly even Jones but not gonna quibble with Tiger.  all 3 of them had careers cut short in some way(in Jones case it wasn't on purpose)

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C-Man

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Nobody has ever dominated their sport like Tiger Woods when he was still working with Butch Harmon from 1999-2002. That run was absolutely incredible. Hell, his time with Hank Haney was pretty fucking good too but nowhere near what he had before he started tinkering with his swing under that fuck-stick Haney's tutelage.

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Gatorubet

Gatorubet 30391

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I think it’s less applicable for non-contact sports like golf and baseball versus contact sports like football and basketball where you can use your athleticism. In golf, you have equipment upgrades. I would’ve loved to see Tiger and Jack in their 20s with the same equipment. That’s the argument Tiger supporters should be looking for.


As someone who learned to play with persimmon woods, I can vouch that you cannot wind up and smack the ball with the force Tiger did at his prime playing - ah - ‘wood’ woods. Bad things happen when your sweet spot is not as large as metal woods and you miss it. “Between the screws” had meaning.

That is not to say that Tiger did not have the skills to play with 1970s clubs. Dude would have won with a mashie niblick and gutta-percha. But I have a hunch that his driving would have been less dominant, there being less forgiveness when that extreme flexion and speed in his swing did not have that larger sweet spot to save him.

Interesting hypothetical. He would have dominated regardless. His short game and putting can’t be denied. But maybe his advantage off the tee might not have been as great, and therefore given him less of an edge on approach shots - were he hit wedge while guys were hitting 8 irons.
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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21474

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6 hours ago, Gatorubet said:


As someone who learned to play with persimmon woods, I can vouch that you cannot wind up and smack the ball with the force Tiger did at his prime playing - ah - ‘wood’ woods. Bad things happen when your sweet spot is not as large as metal woods and you miss it. “Between the screws” had meaning.

That is not to say that Tiger did not have the skills to play with 1970s clubs. Dude would have won with a mashie niblick and gutta-percha. But I have a hunch that his driving would have been less dominant, there being less forgiveness when that extreme flexion and speed in his swing did not have that larger sweet spot to save him.

Interesting hypothetical. He would have dominated regardless. His short game and putting can’t be denied. But maybe his advantage off the tee might not have been as great, and therefore given him less of an edge on approach shots - were he hit wedge while guys were hitting 8 irons.

I still have a set of Ping persimmon woods.  1, 3, 5, & 7.  Hand-me-downs from my grandpa. Every few years when I am cleaning out the garage I think about getting rid of them, but can’t pull the trigger.  I don’t play with them, but I do take them to the driving range once in a while.  When you hit it flush, it just feels better.

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dcar00

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15 hours ago, Gatorubet said:


As someone who learned to play with persimmon woods, I can vouch that you cannot wind up and smack the ball with the force Tiger did at his prime playing - ah - ‘wood’ woods. Bad things happen when your sweet spot is not as large as metal woods and you miss it. “Between the screws” had meaning.

That is not to say that Tiger did not have the skills to play with 1970s clubs. Dude would have won with a mashie niblick and gutta-percha. But I have a hunch that his driving would have been less dominant, there being less forgiveness when that extreme flexion and speed in his swing did not have that larger sweet spot to save him.

Interesting hypothetical. He would have dominated regardless. His short game and putting can’t be denied. But maybe his advantage off the tee might not have been as great, and therefore given him less of an edge on approach shots - were he hit wedge while guys were hitting 8 irons.

I look at the equipment when you are comparing era's as no effect, if you are looking at who is better.  everyone in the particular era is basically playing with the same equipment. 

I do believe that swings are different based on the equipment and the guys that learned on persimmon and then switched to metal when it came about probably had a more difficult adjustment.  If I recall Justin Leonard was the last PGA player to hit a persimmon driver.

now scoring is a different animal.  these guys are playing courses where every par 5 is reachable.  they couldn't make the courses long enough to make par 5's true 3 shot holes(and to be honest maybe the didn't want to, chicks dig the long ball and eagles)

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21474

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24 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

I look at the equipment when you are comparing era's as no effect, if you are looking at who is better.  everyone in the particular era is basically playing with the same equipment. 

I do believe that swings are different based on the equipment and the guys that learned on persimmon and then switched to metal when it came about probably had a more difficult adjustment.  If I recall Justin Leonard was the last PGA player to hit a persimmon driver.

now scoring is a different animal.  these guys are playing courses where every par 5 is reachable.  they couldn't make the courses long enough to make par 5's true 3 shot holes(and to be honest maybe the didn't want to, chicks dig the long ball and eagles)

That’s crazy that Leonard used a persimmon on tour.  I was playing metal woods by the time he went pro, and I was playing hand me down shit from my grandpa, so it’s not like I was always on the cutting edge of golf technology.

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dcar00

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8 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

That’s crazy that Leonard used a persimmon on tour.  I was playing metal woods by the time he went pro, and I was playing hand me down shit from my grandpa, so it’s not like I was always on the cutting edge of golf technology.

here is a good article.  looks like Love and Leonard were the last.  last major won with persimmon.  93 Masters - Langer

https://www.pga.com/archive/events/pgachampionship/last-players-win-major-persimmon

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21474

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10 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

here is a good article.  looks like Love and Leonard were the last.  last major won with persimmon.  93 Masters - Langer

https://www.pga.com/archive/events/pgachampionship/last-players-win-major-persimmon

Wow.  I feel like I gained 20-30 yards off the tee when I swapped out the Ping persimmon for the OG Big Bertha.  Not to mention the improvement in accuracy.  Can’t believe those guys held out that long.

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