Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

[hpslugga 4,026]

6 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

This idea that somehow America is destroying Venezuela's economy is fucking laughable. Chavez's and Maduro's lasting legacy as fascists will be both a destroyed economy and a diaspora. Anyone supporting these shitbirds supports fascism. 

It’s a variety of factors, but we’ve definitely been one of them for the past 17 years.

But to add to DD’s more relevant point, the issue isn’t whether or not we’ve played a role in their plight. The issue now is who should be entrusted to transition them away from Maduro and into whatever becomes of Venezuela, and the idea that we’re to be trusted to oversee such a transition in a way that benefits the general population is an abject failure at humanity. That’s just putting the coyote in the chicken coop.

[Rimbo 25,705]

3 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Oh this should be fun.

You're not a professional at this. You claim you took a semester course. I fucking minored in history but only an epic moron would even think to consider me a "historian."

I wasn't referring to his speeches and I wasn't referring to him bragging on himself. I was referring to his explanations of what, in his disgusting mind, the US needed to do in order to assist Pinochet in toppling Allende and to insure that he'd be in charge for a while. That has nothing to do with his ego, that's a matter of the declassified records, which I doubt you've read as much as a cover page. I gave a sampling of the material and can cite literally dozens of others. You, on the other hand, are posturing and it's not convincing in the least.

I've spent more time researching Chile, as well as the rest of the similar ventures that I mentioned, than you've spent remembering that one puny semester course that you seem to think gives you a level of unquestionable knowledge on the topic. I don't claim to be any sort of expert on the topic, but I know bullshit when I see it, and you're laying it on pretty thick. 

Allende was the leader of the Unidad Popular, which was a compendium of various parties, the Communist Party included. But Allende was never a member of the Communist Party exclusively. He founded, as a matter of actual fact, the Partido Socialista de Chile and was a member of same for 40 years before his death. You say that you've reviewed the historic record, but I haven't seen any evidence of this. All I see in this tidbit of bewildering inanities is just flat-out posturing, and you think you can hide behind that with all of this bluster. 

You said he was deposed because of his political leanings and that Pinochet didn't need our help. In order for a coup in Chile to succeed without US assistance, it'd need to be a popular revolution. That didn't happen, and the Pinochet regime relied on crucial US support to both assume and maintain power in those years, which is why we gave it to them.

And I also stand by what I said: the Chile escapade was a relatively minor one in terms of just Henry Kissinger, let alone post-WWII US foreign policy. What that bastard did in the Far East was far worse.

 

He was the Communist party's candidate both in the elections leading to that one, and became the coalition's candidate in part because of that association. And he retained their backing after he was elected when the coalition unsurprisingly broke apart.

You seem to have this ridiculous idea that the Coalition was itself some kind of unified party in itself, rather than the hodge-podge of left-wing parties that very briefly managed to decide that fighting the Right was more important than fighting each other over which was the "correct" version of Left.

And the even more ridiculous idea that I somehow called him a Communist for some ulterior Right Wing propaganda purpose. It only matters because it mattered to the US State Department at the time.

As for the rest of the dick-measuring, if you want to prove you grasp this topic, you can start by actually sticking to the point rather than changing the subject, and not confusing the term "coup" with the concept of a popular revolt (how can you expect me to take you seriously after that?).

Of course I'm not a professional Historian, nor do I consider myself the next Arturo Valenzuela when it comes to Chile. But so far, you are telling me nothing I don't know, and I'm pointing out to you details that you apparently did not know.

[bernorange 8,345]

Quote

A group of major European nations recognized Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido as the country's interim president on Monday, urging him to hold free and fair elections.

The coordinated move came after President Nicolas Maduro ignored a demand set by some EU nations last week to call snap elections by the end of Sunday. Spain, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Austria, Denmark and the Netherlands all said they would recognize Guadio as the legitimate Venezuelan leader.

...

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/04/americas/europe-guaido-venezuela-president-intl/index.html?utm_term=link&utm_content=2019-02-04T09%3A52%3A20&utm_source=twCNNi&utm_medium=social

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

On 2/1/2019 at 11:03 PM, Bookman said:

Yeah we're all far left.

Well to be fair, some of you are just blathering idiots who don't know their left from their right.  But have unfocussed social outrage all the live long day.

[Fozzz 152]

"Thousands"

 

Meanwhile, this basically went unreported.

 

Thank God for our "free" press.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,355]

They look like military personnel afraid to defect.

Maybe you can expose the undying support of the North Koreans next.

[hayden_horn 11,358]

Lulz. Yes, the Venezuelan press is totally free. Massive eyeroll. 

[Fozzz 152]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

Lulz. Yes, the Venezuelan press is totally free. Massive eyeroll. 

lol, yes because the point of that post was directed towards the freedom of the press in Venezuela.  God you can be dense.

[Fozzz 152]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

They look like military personnel afraid to defect.

Maybe you can expose the undying support of the North Koreans next.

Yes, i'm sure everyone in attendance was told that if they did not show up their entire family would be converted into Soylent.  

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

7 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

"Thousands"

 

Meanwhile, this basically went unreported.

 

Thank God for our "free" press.

Well the gov't is cracking don on opposition folks so going out to protest Maduro is an invitation for trouble.  Going out and supporting glorious leader is safer ....  The truths in there somewhere

[Viper 11,998]

Encouraging to see a consensus of nation's supporting the opposition leader. Just have to hope the defection of the military means Trump won't have to go gung-ho and try to involve our troops. 

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, Viper said:

Encouraging to see a consensus of nation's supporting the opposition leader. Just have to hope the defection of the military means Trump won't have to go gung-ho and try to involve our troops. 

What defection of the military are you talking about? 

[David Dennison 18,487]

7 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

What defection of the military are you talking about? 

One general.

[atomheartbevo 89,304]

On 2/2/2019 at 3:03 PM, Johnny Sack said:

This politics board is exactly the same as Texags politics.  Just for the left.  

To be fair, Surly doesn’t buy into batshit craziness like QAnon.  TexAgs went whole-hog on that one.  

[hayden_horn 11,358]

57 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

lol, yes because the point of that post was directed towards the freedom of the press in Venezuela.  God you can be dense.

the opposition in venezuela is relying on social media to organize, and their events go largely unreported in maduro's venzuela. this is because chavez subverted the press years ago. this is because venezuela is a fascist state. that for some reason you seem to support.

56 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Yes, i'm sure everyone in attendance was told that if they did not show up their entire family would be converted into Soylent.  

there are reasons to support the chavez/maduro regime.  this is because large parts of societies can be bootlickers for various reasons, not the least of which is to curry favor with the regime in order to continue on with the status quo,and not put oneself in political crosshairs.

i had lunch with a VZ immigrant, close friend, and coworker. she was telling me about how difficult her grandmother has it trying to find enough food. that inflation is so bad that paper money is worthless.

but yeah, go maduro, because socialism or whatever the fuck reason you are supporting his fascism.

[Fozzz 152]

Why do the much larger Chavista rallies go totally unreported in our press, which is not restricted from doing so?  Why are only the opposition protests reported on?  

As I've said before, I support the actions of Bolivia and Uruguay in attempting to establish dialogue.  I don't support sanctions which kill Venezuelans.  Of course, on this board, refusing to support murderous policies is treated as supporting fascsim.  

Edited February 4, 2019 by Fozzz

[David Dennison 18,487]

There is still the small problem of what to do about the conditions that led to Chavez/Maduro in the first place. Has the opposition figured that out yet?

[Parliament 14,086]

No.  Latin America gonna Latin America.

[hayden_horn 11,358]

you're right, totally uncovered:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/02/americas/venezuela-unrest/index.html

 

[bad_teammate 13,115]

It's very comforting that a bunch of nations just so happen to want to overthrow the government of a nation that just so happens to be sitting on insanely large oil reserves.

But that is coincidental to the primary concerns for fairness, rights, and democracy!

[hayden_horn 11,358]

it also helps that they are a failed fascist regime.

but yeah, diplomatic entities called nations will act in their diplomatic interests. 

but it does also help when the opponent is a fascist whose failed state is starving its own people, resulting in a massive diaspora and local crisis.

in the end, fascism is the ultimate ouroboros. it can't help but destroy itself.

[bad_teammate 13,115]

4 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

it also helps that they are a failed fascist regime.

but yeah, diplomatic entities called nations will act in their diplomatic interests. 

but it does also help when the opponent is a fascist whose failed state is starving its own people, resulting in a massive diaspora and local crisis.

in the end, fascism is the ultimate ouroboros. it can't help but destroy itself.

Let's have Bibi Netenyahu over for brunch. Erdogan for afternoon tea. MBS over for hors d'oeuvre. Private, secret dinner with Putin.

[David Dennison 18,487]

8 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

it also helps that they are a failed fascist regime.

but yeah, diplomatic entities called nations will act in their diplomatic interests. 

but it does also help when the opponent is a fascist whose failed state is starving its own people, resulting in a massive diaspora and local crisis.

in the end, fascism is the ultimate ouroboros. it can't help but destroy itself.

What is Guaido's plan for addressing the issues that led to the current crisis?

[hayden_horn 11,358]

11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Let's have Bibi Netenyahu over for brunch. Erdogan for afternoon tea. MBS over for hors d'oeuvre. Private, secret dinner with Putin.

i know, then we can talk with maduro and chavez's fascist corpse. calling it socialism doesn't make it a socialist paradise. nazis called themselves socialists, and only rabid, right wing carpet chewing crazy people will say that they were socialist. they were fascist. like chavez and maduro. your invocation of other fascist tending world leaders whose regimes i also do not favor isn't helping.

8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What is Guaido's plan for addressing the issues that led to the current crisis?

i dunno. let's ask him. oh. that's right, he began outlining his plan (which he's called plan pais) in a speech about a week ago. why do yall act like finding news on venezuela is difficult? the man has a fucking twitter account.

i don't necessarily have the optimism that venezuela is going to fix itself or that guaido is jesus christ walking, but i know maduro is a fascist. 

why do yall want the status quo fascist to maintain power?

it's such an odd thing to support.

[David Dennison 18,487]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

i know, then we can talk with maduro and chavez's fascist corpse. calling it socialism doesn't make it a socialist paradise. nazis called themselves socialists, and only rabid, right wing carpet chewing crazy people will say that they were socialist. they were fascist. like chavez and maduro. your invocation of other fascist tending world leaders whose regimes i also do not favor isn't helping.

i dunno. let's ask him. oh. that's right, he began outlining his plan (which he's called plan pais) in a speech about a week ago. why do yall act like finding news on venezuela is difficult? the man has a fucking twitter account.

i don't necessarily have the optimism that venezuela is going to fix itself or that guaido is jesus christ walking, but i know maduro is a fascist. 

why do yall want the status quo fascist to maintain power?

it's such an odd thing to support.

I'd let the people decide.

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, David Dennison said:

I'd let the people decide.

Nope.  The humane thing to do is try to starve their people enough such that Maduro's regime implodes.  The humane thing to do is to kill them.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Fozzz

[hayden_horn 11,358]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

I'd let the people decide.

so would guaido. that's part of his plan that you are pretending does not exist.

[hayden_horn 11,358]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

Nope.  The humane thing to do is try to starve their people enough such that Maduro's regime implodes.  The humane thing to do is to kill them.

the maduro regime has failed, as the whole chavista illusion was bound to fail.

why do you support them?

you strike me as someone who would have a reflexive anti-fascist bone in their body. 

i guess not.

[Brisketexan 104,228]

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i know, then we can talk with maduro and chavez's fascist corpse. calling it socialism doesn't make it a socialist paradise. nazis called themselves socialists, and only rabid, right wing carpet chewing crazy people will say that they were socialist. they were fascist. like chavez and maduro. your invocation of other fascist tending world leaders whose regimes i also do not favor isn't helping.

i dunno. let's ask him. oh. that's right, he began outlining his plan (which he's called plan pais) in a speech about a week ago. why do yall act like finding news on venezuela is difficult? the man has a fucking twitter account.

i don't necessarily have the optimism that venezuela is going to fix itself or that guaido is jesus christ walking, but i know maduro is a fascist. 

why do yall want the status quo fascist to maintain power?

it's such an odd thing to support.

Because people get drawn offsides by the label and trappings of an ideology, totally ignoring the true personal purpose underneath.  Folks champion Chavez/Maduro because YAY SOCIALISM, completely ignoring or disregarding the fact that it's just good old-fashioned authoritarian crony corruption.

JUST like a shitload of folks jumped on the Trump train, saying YAY CONSERVATIVISM....also completely ignoring or disregarding the fact that it's just good old-fashioned authoritarian crony corruption.

Trump and Chavez/Maduro are the same guy.  They just use differing political "philosophies" (in reality, whatever package they could sell to gain support) to accomplish the same goals - personal power and corrupt enrichment of themselves and their loyalists.  That is the ONLY true platform of any of these folks. 

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, hayden_horn said:

the maduro regime has failed, as the whole chavista illusion was bound to fail.

why do you support them?

you strike me as someone who would have a reflexive anti-fascist bone in their body. 

i guess not.

The policies we have chosen to pursue clearly have and will continue to kill and cause suffering in Venezuela.  There is no guarantee that they will ever improve things in Venezuela.  There is no way to even place a probability on such an outcome.  However, you can be relatively more confident that if we do topple the regime, that our true purpose, which has nothing to do with the welfare of the Venezuelan people, will be achieved.  Odd how that works.

[David Dennison 18,487]

6 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

so would guaido. that's part of his plan that you are pretending does not exist.

What's his plan?

[hayden_horn 11,358]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

The policies we have chosen to pursue clearly have and will continue to kill and cause suffering in Venezuela.  There is no guarantee that they will ever improve things in Venezuela.  There is no way to even place a probability on such an outcome.  However, you can be relatively more confident that if we do topple the regime, that our true purpose, which has nothing to do with the welfare of the Venezuelan people, will be achieved.  Odd how that works.

see: title of thread, things not going well in venezuela. 

fascist regimes will always fail, either to another more ambitious fascist, through military coup, or organically. we should never support fascist regimes, in my opinion.

yes, that includes the house of saud, which also has the complication of massive oil reserves.

[hayden_horn 11,358]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

What's his plan?

do you have google?

[David Dennison 18,487]

Ahhhhh, capitalism.

Cool.

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, David Dennison said:

What's his plan?

Mass privatization.

[David Dennison 18,487]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

Mass privatization.

Yeah, I got that. So basically going back to conditions pre-Chavez.

Seems like a really good plan.

[hayden_horn 11,358]

yeah, fascism has worked so well for venezuela. that's why people are fleeing the country in droves.

[Brisketexan 104,228]

2 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

The policies we have chosen to pursue clearly have and will continue to kill and cause suffering in Venezuela.  There is no guarantee that they will ever improve things in Venezuela.  There is no way to even place a probability on such an outcome.  However, you can be relatively more confident that if we do topple the regime, that our true purpose, which has nothing to do with the welfare of the Venezuelan people, will be achieved.  Odd how that works.

Just like you can be incredibly confident that if the Maduro regime remains, the looting of national resources by and for the benefit of the government elites and cronies will continue, and the Venezuelan people will continue to suffer.  But, you know, SOCIALISM.  All is forgiven, so long as it is done in the name of the one true faith.

Jesus, for folks who preach against the folly of the US and our history of reflexively supporting anyone who would "fight communism," you would think you'd see the irony here.  But nope.  Just like all a dictator had to say was "I'll fight communism," and all was forgiven, all a tinpot dictator has to say is "I will bring a socialist paradise," and all is forgiven by the Maduro-apologists.  Y'all are definitely right about one thing, though -- we clearly learn NOTHING from history.  Y'all just don't realize y'all are part of that club.

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, hayden_horn said:

see: title of thread, things not going well in venezuela. 

fascist regimes will always fail, either to another more ambitious fascist, through military coup, or organically. we should never support fascist regimes, in my opinion.

yes, that includes the house of saud, which also has the complication of massive oil reserves.

No one here is arguing that we should support them, like we do with "fascist" regimes in the KSA, Egypt, etc.  

[Fozzz 152]

For the neocons in this thread, why do the vast majority of Venezuelans disapprove of US interference?  Are they just ignorant?  Is it a product of fear or mass hysteria?

[David Dennison 18,487]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Just like you can be incredibly confident that if the Maduro regime remains, the looting of national resources by and for the benefit of the government elites and cronies will continue, and the Venezuelan people will continue to suffer.  But, you know, SOCIALISM.  All is forgiven, so long as it is done in the name of the one true faith.

Jesus, for folks who preach against the folly of the US and our history of reflexively supporting anyone who would "fight communism," you would think you'd see the irony here.  But nope.  Just like all a dictator had to say was "I'll fight communism," and all was forgiven, all a tinpot dictator has to say is "I will bring a socialist paradise," and all is forgiven by the Maduro-apologists.  Y'all are definitely right about one thing, though -- we clearly learn NOTHING from history.  Y'all just don't realize y'all are part of that club.

It sounds very much like this is something the Venezuelans need to work out themselves. Something tells me the United States getting involved doesn't help their politics.

[ztejas 43,193]

You can overthrow a fascist regime in hopes for potential economic gain down the road, and at the same time help the citizens of that state. These things are not mutually exclusive. 

If you donate money to charity for a tax write-off, that charity is still receiving the money. 

I get this is a bit philosophical - but is it the intention that makes it a good action or the end result? From a utilitarian viewpoint, if you overthrow a regime to make a play on that state's natural resources, but in the process alleviate the socioeconomic issues plaguing that state's citizens, the intent becomes more of a moot point. 

I don't really have a dog in this fight - just wanted to offer some perspective here because it seems like the discussion is getting carried away on ideologies and ignoring what should really be a cost-benefit analysis as it concerns the people currently living in this nightmare. 

[bad_teammate 13,115]

Brisket is back pretending he's surrounded by Maduro fans even though literally no one here is a Maduro fan.

5 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

For the neocons in this thread, why do the vast majority of Venezuelans disapprove of US interference?  Are they just ignorant?  Is it a product of fear or mass hysteria?

Hugo can tell by the pixels that everyone there who doesn't welcome the glorious West is just scared of Maduro's thugs.

[Fozzz 152]

As argued below, it's plausible that our interference (if we don't have the stomach to invade) will actually weaken the opposition in Venezuela and strengthen Maduro.  

Quote

The two most radical economic scenarios—an economic blockade or a petroleum embargo—would consolidate the Venezuelan government’s entrenchment around allies like China, Russia, and Turkey. Even the withdrawal of ambassadors or the closure of embassies are unlikely to twist Maduro’s arm, and will instead feed into nationalist and anti-interventionist rhetoric. At the same time, increased migration has allowed millions of families in Venezuela to rely on remittances, alleviating the gravity of the situation.

In the domestic sphere, the opposition is again mobilized and waiting to see what Guaidó can do as president. Guaidó is a member of the most radical party of the opposition (Voluntad Popular) and the more moderate sectors are nervous because every venture of this type has culminated, until now, with a weakening and fracturing of the opposition itself. Guaidó is not a very well-known politician in the country, and does not appear to have sufficient support to completely subvert the ruling party from a military standpoint, which can also rely on tried and tested tools to contain street manifestations and their potential to become violent. The scenario at hand could end up dividing the opposition and the general public could lose patience, given the radical nature of their actions and demands.

In this context, it is possible that anti-Chavista forces, domestic and foreign, are considering only two options: to initiate a U.S.-led military invasion with the help of Brazil and Colombia, or simply to return to the electoral arena and wait six years for the next presidential election. The first of these options may lead the United States—and the Venezuelan people—in an uncertain direction.

For now, Venezuela faces a government weak in the economic and social arenas, but with strong judicial and military institutions. This will be the case unless—weakened by international pressure—Chavismo’s emerging fissures gather momentum and are able to undermine the government’s stability. However, as long as the U.S. government’s strategy operates on the basis of threats, Chavismo will have a reason to remain strong and unified.

https://nacla.org/news/2019/01/30/military-coup-venezuela-not-without-military’s-support-disponible-en-español

[bad_teammate 13,115]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

As argued below, it's plausible that our interference (if we don't have the stomach to invade) will actually weaken the opposition in Venezuela and strengthen Maduro.  

https://nacla.org/news/2019/01/30/military-coup-venezuela-not-without-military’s-support-disponible-en-español

Unintended consequences in imperialist policy!?!? NO WAY!!!!!

[Brisketexan 104,228]

17 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Brisket is back pretending he's surrounded by Maduro fans even though literally no one here is a Maduro fan.

Man.  You really don't see the incredibly amusing parallels?

Y'all are "I didn't vote for Trump, I really don't like him at all......yet I somehow support him at every turn, and viciously attack any and all who oppose him"-type Trumpkins.  Y'all are that kind of "not Maduro fans."  Excusing, enabling, and supporting authoritarian corrupt regimes because it suits your political philosophy -- y'all couldn't be more American if you tried, and you don't even see the irony.

[David Dennison 18,487]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Man.  You really don't see the incredibly amusing parallels?

Y'all are "I didn't vote for Trump, I really don't like him at all......yet I somehow support him at every turn, and viciously attack any and all who oppose him"-type Trumpkins.  Y'all are that kind of "not Maduro fans."  Excusing, enabling, and supporting authoritarian corrupt regimes because it suits your political philosophy -- y'all couldn't be more American if you tried, and you don't even see the irony.

Again, who supports Maduro?

[Brisketexan 104,228]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Again, who supports Maduro?

All the same people who don't support Trump.....they just reflexively attack and and all criticism of him and anything that might jeopardize his continued rule.  That kind of "we don't support him."

[David Dennison 18,487]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

All the same people who don't support Trump.....they just reflexively attack and and all criticism of him and anything that might jeopardize his continued rule.  That kind of "we don't support him."

So leaving it up to the people of Venezuela and not sticking our noses in it means supporting Maduro?

[F250 28,623]