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Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

PittsburghTiger

By PittsburghTiger
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Huckleberry
Huckleberry

Listen, @bad_teammate, this is a complicated situation and I actually do see the logic in both sides of the end result positions. But that's a lot more complicated topic I don't have time for right no

Johnny Sack
Johnny Sack

In this thread surly libs blame the US for the failures of socialism.  

EuroHorn
EuroHorn
David Dennison

David Dennison 19121

Posted
Posted
Just now, InkaUtexas said:

come on man, you can do better. I was just trying to give you a few socialist states usually propped up. Go ahead man, I want to learn. 

I'm quite certain you already know all of the states where socialism and democracy are working just fine.

Those places are not in Africa or Latin America, unless you want to count Bolivia, but Bolivia is poor so that's kind of a gray area.

I'd love to know why you think both democracy and socialism are having difficulty in African states. I wonder what most of them have in common, historically speaking, of course.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19121

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Can you name 5 in both Latin America and Africa? Hell, I will give you Asia, except China. 

yeah, those damn europeans who colonized Scandinavia. 

Fucking elitists. 

No, but what does that have to do with any of the states where socialism and democracy work?

Edited by David Dennison
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hpslugga

hpslugga 4069

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Bolivia is the closest thing to democratic socialism in Latin America.

Not even close. They've made improvements since Morales' election, but even in the present, they're a gnat on Costa Rica's ass w/r/t any meaningful socialism scale.

Edited by hpslugga
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GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Again, I wouldn't bother with this. The person you're quoting hasn't the foggiest idea what socialism is, and we've seen that over and over again from that group for years. Also, what hayden said earlier was correct: the idea that Venezuela is in any way a socialist society is a bad joke, so conceding that assertion in some sort of argument is utterly pointless. It's like starting a debate with "given that the moon is made of green cheese..."

so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
noun
  1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
    synonyms: leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism; More
     
    • policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
      synonyms: leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism; More
       
    • (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

So Chávez and Maduro didn’t expropriate the means of production from private hands for the benefit of the masses? That is a textbook definition of socialism as witnessed above. You like to puff your chest and sneer at the rest of us for not knowing what socialism really is. Look at the facts from the WSJ article I posted earlier:

Mr. Chávez expropriates farms and businesses, and uses oil revenue to build homes, distribute food and upgrade health care. The programs reduce poverty and make him popular. But he also saddles Venezuela with high inflation, billions in foreign debt and makes the country even more oil dependent.

Chávez supporters wait outside the polling station where he is voting in Caracas in December 2005 during legislative elections.

Chávez supporters wait outside the polling station where he is voting in Caracas in December 2005 during legislative elections. Photo: Andrew Alvarez/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images

2006  
Mr. Chávez is re-elected president.

Workers of oil state-owned company Petróleos de Venezuela attend a rally in Barcelona, Venezuela in May 2007.
Workers of oil state-owned company Petróleos de Venezuela attend a rally in Barcelona, Venezuela in May 2007. Photo: JUAN BARRETO/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images
 
2007 
Mr. Chávez nationalizes key oil assets. Mismanagement and corruption will in time sharply reduce production, leaving the state with little money to pay for food and medicine imports.
 
 
Edited by Iconoclast Texan
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Jhawk

Jhawk 1075

Posted
Posted
28 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What we should do is sell some arms to Iran and then use that money to fund the opposition forces in Venezuela.

Or is that too '80s?

True story....

My company has a strategic partner in the real estate development world that invested in an airline in the 80's.  His partner ran the show and he just supplied capital and resources to buy the planes.  Turned out, his business was shut down due to political pressure.  His partner was CIA and his planes were flying weapons to Iran.  He actually made money on the deal and everything was swept under the rug as quietly as possible.  The dude is actually a great guy, known him for years now.  He's 80 and about to retire but he has some awesome stories.

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GSU&UT

GSU&UT 1798

Posted
Posted

I'm fairly ignorant of the extent of the history of the United States' involvement in all the various coup attempts in Central America since the 50s, but listening to the last Chapo who had Jon Schwarz (talking about Elliot Abrams) it is grotesque how much people on both parties think there's a problem and that somehow helping stage another coup will, this time, lead to the betterment of these people's' welfare. 

 

https://theintercept.com/2019/01/30/elliott-abrams-venezuela-coup/

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13303

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, GSU&UT said:

I'm fairly ignorant of the extent of the history of the United States' involvement in all the various coup attempts in Central America since the 50s, but listening to the last Chapo who had Jon Schwarz (talking about Elliot Abrams) it is grotesque how much people on both parties think there's a problem and that somehow helping stage another coup will, this time, lead to the betterment of these people's' welfare. 

 

https://theintercept.com/2019/01/30/elliott-abrams-venezuela-coup/

look at this humble brag Patreon baller

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted (edited)

Most of the Venezuelan opposition does not even support Guaidó's gambit to assume power via US backing.

Quote

Educated at George Washington University in DC, Guaidó was virtually unknown in his native Venezuela before being thrust on to the world stage in a rapidly unfolding series of events. In a poll conducted a little more than a week before Guaidó appointed himself president of the country, 81% of Venezuelans had never even heard of the 35-year-old.

To make a short story shorter, US Vice President Pence phoned Guaidó on the evening of January 22rd and asked him how’d he like to be made president of Venezuela. The next day, Guaidó announced that he considered himself president of Venezuela, followed within minutes by US President Trump confirming the self-appointment.

A few weeks before on January 5, Guaidó had been selected as president of Venezuela’s National Assembly, their unicameral legislature. He had been elected to the assembly from a coastal district with 26% of the vote. It was his party’s turn for the presidency of the body, and he was hand-picked for the position. Guaidó, even within his own party, was not in the top leadership.

Guaidó’s party, Popular Will, is a far-right marginal group whose most enthusiastic boosters are John Bolton, Elliott Abrams, and Mike Pompeo. Popular Will had adopted a strategy of regime change by extra-parliamentary means rather than engage in the democratic electoral process and had not participated in recent Venezuelan elections.

Although anointed by Trump and company, Guaidó’s Popular Will Party is not representative of the “Venezuelan opposition,” which is a fractious bunch whose hatred of Maduro is only matched by their abhorrence of each other. Leading opposition candidate Henri Falcón, who ran against Maduro in 2018 on a neoliberal austerity platform, had been vehemently opposed by Popular Will who demanded that he join their US-backed boycott of the election.

The Venezuelan news outlet, Ultimas Noticias, reported that prominent opposition politician Henrique Capriles, who had run against Maduro in 2013, “affirmed during an interview that the majority of opposition parties did not agree with the self-swearing in of Juan Guaidó as interim president of the country.” Claudio Fermin, president of the party Solutions for Venezuela, wrote “we believe in the vote, in dialogue, we believe in coming to an understanding, we believe Venezuelans need to part ways with the extremist sectors that only offer hatred, revenge, lynching.” Key opposition governor of the State of Táchira, Laidy Gómez, has rejected Guaidó’s support of intervention by the US, warning that it “would generate death of Venezuelans.”

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14308

I don't know why these people can't get it through their thick heads that many of them are just gonna have to die in order for us to fix their shitty little country.

Edited by Fozzz
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David Dennison

David Dennison 19121

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Most of the Venezuelan opposition does not even support Guaidó's gambit to assume power via US backing.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14308

I don't know why these people can't get it through their thick heads that many of them are just gonna have to die in order for us to fix their shitty little country.

No puppet, no puppet. You're the puppet.

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suddenly shaggy

suddenly shaggy 929

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

Most of the Venezuelan opposition does not even support Guaidó's gambit to assume power via US backing.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14308

I don't know why these people can't get it through their thick heads that many of them are just gonna have to die in order for us to fix their shitty little country.

Quote

Venezuelaanalysis.com is a left-leaning, pro-Bolivarian Revolution news website.[1] Its founder Gregory Wilpert said in 2007 that the site had received funding from the Venezuelan government.

Greg Wilpert founded the website in 2003 with Martin Sanchez, one of the founders of Aporrea.org, a pro-Chavez website, who set up the "technical side" of the site.[1][4] The set up of Venezuelanalysis.com was also aided by the Venezuelan government. [/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelanalysis

You have a long history of disingenuously posting blatant propaganda and should be negged to Bolivia for your intellectual dishonesty. 

 

Edited by suddenly shaggy
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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted
Just now, suddenly shaggy said:

It's a fact that you posted a literal propaganda rag for the illegitimate Maduro government and tried to pass it off as actual news, which is a long established pattern for you. 

Harris is an activist and has written for a number of leftist publications.  You assert, without evidence, that he's being paid to push "propaganda."  Moreover, you ignore the opposition sources quoted in his article.  All you can do is scroll wikipedia and repeatedly bleat this nonsense.  

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11365

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

So are we just assuming Guaido has public support because Venezuela's expatriates support him?

just. asking. questions.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/venezuela-crisis-latest-updates-190123205835912.html

Quote

Countries that support President Maduro: Bolivia, China, Cuba, Iran, Nicaragua, Russia, Syria, Turkey. 

Countries that support opposition leader Juan Guaido: Austria, Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Croatia, Denmark, Ecuador, France, Germany, Guatemala, Honduras, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom, United States.

china, iran, russia, syria, turkey. yall are keeping some great company.

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suddenly shaggy

suddenly shaggy 929

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

Harris is an activist and has written for a number of leftist publications.  You assert, without evidence, that he's being paid to push "propaganda."  Moreover, you ignore the opposition sources quoted in his article.  All you can do is scroll wikipedia and repeatedly bleat this nonsense.  

Fuck you. 

Venezuelaanalysis.com was set up by Chavez and you are a disingenuous piece of shit for trying to pass it off as legitimate. 

Venezuelaanalysis.com is a left-leaning, pro-Bolivarian Revolution news website.[1] Its founder Gregory Wilpert said in 2007 that the site had received funding from the Venezuelan government.

Greg Wilpert founded the website in 2003 with Martin Sanchez, one of the founders of Aporrea.org, a pro-Chavez website, who set up the "technical side" of the site.[1][4] The set up of Venezuelanalysis.com was also aided by the Venezuelan government.

 

 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13303

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

just. asking. questions.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/venezuela-crisis-latest-updates-190123205835912.html

china, iran, russia, syria, turkey. yall are keeping some great company.

oooh, oooh, oooh, now do the same for other nations' approval ratings for the US president!

Maduro is an illegitimate president. Guiado would be an even MORE illegitimate president.

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11365

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Why does that matter?  The US sanctions clearly aren't good for them but yet you support those.

while us sanctions hurt the venezuelan oil industry, the us is also trying to import food and medicine to those affected. from my link above:

Quote

Maduro vows to block 'fake' aid 'spectacle'
Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro said the US-backed humanitarian aid being stockpiled in the Colombian border city of Cucuta for his country should be distributed to poor Colombians as Venezuelans are not "beggars."


WATCH24:50
Can the international community solve Venezuela's crisis?
The day after trucks carrying medicine and food arrived in Cucuta, Maduro, who has become increasingly isolated internationally, told a news conference that Venezuela did not need the aid that includes supplies provided by the US.

"Venezuela won't allow the spectacle of fake humanitarian aid because we're no-one's beggars," Maduro said.

"Venezuela is not suffering the humanitarian crisis fabricated by Washington over the last four years to justify intervening in our country."

He blamed shortages of food and medicine on US sanctions, which mostly target regime individuals as well as state oil company PDVSA. 

"Liberate the money that has been blocked and sequestered," said Maduro. "This is a macabre game: we squeeze them by the neck and make them ask for crumbs." 

He said the aid offer was "a message of humiliation for the people."

is maduro responsible for this food and medicine not entering his country? because he says he is. i understand his political position, but that's of his and chavez's making. their governments have been a disaster for venezuela. they've been able to propagandize past it up until now, when people are leaving if they can, starving if they cannot, and having to deal with runaway, worse-than-zimbabwean inflation. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevehanke/2019/01/01/venezuelas-hyperinflation-hits-80000-per-year-in-2018/#6ee8ce3d4572

Quote

Venezuela's economy has collapsed. This is the result of years of socialism, incompetence, and corruption, among other things. An important element that mirrors the economy's collapse is Venezuela's currency, the bolivar. It is not trustworthy. Venezuela's exchange rate regime provides no discipline. It only produces instability, poverty, and the world’s highest inflation rate for 2018.  Indeed, Venezuela’s annual inflation rate at the end of 2018 was 80,000%.

80,000%. totally normal, yall. fascism works.

chavez and maduro created this diaspora and internal humanitarian crisis.

 

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

No. Was Caldera?

who was better for venezuela: chavez or caldera?

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suddenly shaggy

suddenly shaggy 929

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Do you have any evidence, besides a twelve year old quote from Wilpert that you pulled from wikipedia, that VA is currently funded by the Venezuelan government?  

Fuck you. The site was bankrolled by the Venezuelan Ministry of Culture. The Venezuelan government provided technical expertise to set it up. It was literally established as a propaganda rag for the Venezuelan government. The same guy that set it up is still on the board of directors. Do you have any evidence that it has pulled a 180 and suddenly become something other than a pro-Maduro propaganda rag? No, because it is and you are a lying sack of shit. 

There's also this if you'd bothered to read the wikipedia link.

Since at least 2010, the majority of Venezuelanalysis' "Fact Sheets" information is disseminated directly from the Venezuelan government's Venezuela Information Office.[16][17] 

and this

Up to February 2014, Venezuelanalysis.com's 'about' page stated that its "Web server services and bandwidth is donated by Aporrea.org, a larger site maintained by grassroots groups in Venezuela"[18] and as of April 2014, the website said that Venezuelanalysis "depend 100% on reader donations and receive no funding from any governments".[3]

 

That would be the same aporrea.org that is a pro-Chavez/Maduro propaganda organization. 

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