Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

[David Dennison 18854]

25 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

US intentions are in the ideal scenario to cause regime change in Venezuela and at a minimum bring relief to the starving people of that country. You seem to think we are on an island when it comes to support President Guaidò as the legitimate President of Venezuela. We’re not. 

Let me ask you something, did you have an issue with US sanctions of apartheid South Africa? We are using the same playbook that was successful in ending an evil regime. Why the opposition to doing the same with this one with people literally starving.

When was the last time regime change worked for the United States as a foreign policy goal?

[bad_teammate 13194]

23 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

US intentions are in the ideal scenario to cause regime change in Venezuela and at a minimum bring relief to the starving people of that country.

How will economic sanctions lead to regime change?

Quote

You seem to think we are on an island when it comes to support President Guaidò as the legitimate President of Venezuela. We’re not. 

I know we aren't. This is literally the argument hateful, racist, war-mongering imbeciles like you made when we cobbled together a bullshit coalition to invade Iraq while the UN told us to go fuck ourselves.

Quote

Let me ask you something, did you have an issue with US sanctions of apartheid South Africa? We are using the same playbook that was successful in ending an evil regime. Why the opposition to doing the same with this one with people literally starving.

lol @ comparing apartheid South Africa to Venezuela, go fuck yourself

 

[Trey3216 15346]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

What impact do you think the US economic sanctions have? What do you imagine their intentions are?

Probably to have a government that doesn't utilize it's main export as a method to line its own pockets while stealing from their citizens, and to have a government that has some semblance of the ability to pay its debts.  

[Trey3216 15346]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

What impact do you think the US economic sanctions have? What do you imagine their intentions are?

Double Post 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Trey3216

[bad_teammate 13194]

5 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Probably to have a government that doesn't utilize it's main export as a method to line its own pockets while stealing from their citizens, and to have a government that has some semblance of the ability to pay its debts.  

You guys really don't want to answer the question, huh? Weird.

What impact do you think the US economic sanctions have on the people of Venezuela?

[Trey3216 15346]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You guys really don't want to answer the question, huh? Weird.

What impact do you think the US economic sanctions have on the people of Venezuela?

What impact did Chavez/Maduro's retention of profits for personal use of Venezuela's greatest national resource have on the people of Venezuela? 

[bad_teammate 13194]

3 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

What impact did Chavez/Maduro's retention of profits for personal use of Venezuela's greatest national resource have on the people of Venezuela? 

Both Chavez and Maduro were/are corrupt men who use(d) their political power to personally enrich themselves. Chavez had $500M+ liquid after being born in a mud-floored hut. Maduro isn't on that level, but he was a bus driver who now shits in golden toilets. Neither is what I would call an admirable human being nor a model for any kind of ideal (or even good) leader.

Now answer my question, or keep dodging like a coward.

[Trey3216 15346]

6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Both Chavez and Maduro were/are corrupt men who use(d) their political power to personally enrich themselves. Chavez had $500M+ liquid after being born in a mud-floored hut. Maduro isn't on that level, but he was a bus driver who now shits in golden toilets. Neither is what I would call an admirable human being nor a model for any kind of ideal (or even good) leader.

Now answer my question, or keep dodging like a coward.

I haven't dodged your question at all.  The US has offered medical/food aid to help the people of Venezuela since its own leaders see it forthright to starve its people.  The US has also issued sanctions against its government to prevent our banks and financial system from doing business with a government hellbent on starving its own people.  

Why should we prop up a government that doesn't care about its own people?  Why should we risk further financial contagion in choppy times to aid a dictator who is stealing from his people when we could just aid the people?  It's definitely a dilemma.  

[bad_teammate 13194]

Just now, Trey3216 said:

I haven't dodged your question at all.

Then answer it.

What impact do you think the US economic sanctions have on the people of Venezuela?

Quote

The US has also issued sanctions against its government to prevent our banks and financial system from doing business with a government hellbent on starving its own people.  

What impact do you think the US economic sanctions have on the people of Venezuela?

Quote

Why should we prop up a government that doesn't care about its own people?

1) To remain consistent with our international trade policy in which we trade with bad leaders all the time.
2) To reduce the suffering of the people in those nations.

There are more reasons, but those two suffice.

Quote

  Why should we risk further financial contagion in choppy times to aid a dictator who is stealing from his people when we could just aid the people?

1) The alternative, civil war and actual starvation, is worse.
2) Starving civilians to oust leaders we don't like is cruel. (And it doesn't even work, look where it has gotten the Guaido coup so far... fucking nowhere.)

Again, there are more, but those two suffice.

And again, I answer questions but you people just dodge and dodge.

[hpslugga 4058]

2 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

Why should we prop up a government that doesn't care about its own people?

We shouldn't, but we do it all the time. 

[David Dennison 18854]

6 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

We shouldn't, but we do it all the time. 

This cannot be stressed enough when it comes to American foreign policy.

[texastough 1129]

"What impact do you think the US economic sanctions have on the people of Venezuela?"

I think the impact on certain Venezuelans, namely Maduro and his cronies, is to freeze their international assets. The amounts those fuckers have stolen from the country are unprecedented in the history of the world. So I don't think the U.S. sanctions affect the common people of Venezuela at all. They were already starving while the regime took everything for itself. I think the impact that freezing the fuckers' assets could have for the common people, is to help get those fucks out of power, return their money to the country, and allow it to start healing.

Edited February 19, 2019 by texastough
typo

[elfenix 34230]

51 minutes ago, texastough said:

"What impact do you think the US economic sanctions have on the people of Venezuela?"

I think the impact on certain Venezuelans, namely Maduro and his cronies, is to freeze their international assets. The amounts those fuckers have stolen from the country are unprecedented in the history of the world. So I don't think the U.S. sanctions affect the common people of Venezuela at all. They were already starving while the regime took everything for itself. I think the impact that freezing the fuckers' assets could have for the common people, is to help get those fucks out of power, return their money to the country, and allow it to start healing.

wish in one hand and shit in the other...

Edited February 19, 2019 by elfenix

[texastough 1129]

33 minutes ago, elfenix said:

wish in one hand and shit in the other...

Is this a response to all the posters who think the common people of Venezuela should just fix it all by themselves?

[bad_teammate 13194]

2 hours ago, texastough said:

I think the impact on certain Venezuelans, namely Maduro and his cronies, is to freeze their international assets. The amounts those fuckers have stolen from the country are unprecedented in the history of the world. So I don't think the U.S. sanctions affect the common people of Venezuela at all. They were already starving while the regime took everything for itself. I think the impact that freezing the fuckers' assets could have for the common people, is to help get those fucks out of power, return their money to the country, and allow it to start healing.

If the sanctions only hurt Maduro and his cronies, why would the sanctions help motivate the people of Venezuela to overthrow Maduro?

Have the courage of your convictions, you cowards. Name what you advocate. Say it out loud.

[texastough 1129]

Why don't you go first and explain how U.S. sanctions strangled Venezuela's economy. 

The sanctions don't help motivate the people of Venezuela to overthrow Maduro. They don't need any more motivation. The people need help. Maduro has the military in his pocket. Sanctions on the regime make it harder for Maduro to keep power, for example by drying up the funds Maduro would otherwise use to pay his thugs to oppress the citizenry/maintain power. 

I advocate the US helping in a multinational effort to get rid of the Maduro regime ASAP. To the extent Maduro's regime continues to use the military against his own unarmed people to maintain power, I would support coalition military action to end the violence and protect the citizenry, which would likely lead to regime change.

What do you advocate?

Edited February 20, 2019 by texastough

[David Dennison 18854]

3 minutes ago, texastough said:

Why don't you go first and explain how U.S. sanctions strangled Venezuela's economy. 

The sanctions don't help motivate the people of Venezuela to overthrow Maduro. They don't need any more motivation. The people need help. Maduro has the military in his pocket. Sanctions on the regime make it for Maduro to keep power, for example by drying up the funds Maduro would otherwise use to pay his thugs to oppress the citizenry/maintain power. 

I advocate the US helping in a multinational effort to get rid of the Maduro regime ASAP. If Maduro's regime turns violent, I would support coalition military action to end the violence and protect the citizenry.

What do you advocate?

What coalition? The U.S. and maybe Colombia?

[bad_teammate 13194]

2 minutes ago, texastough said:

The sanctions don't help motivate the people of Venezuela to overthrow Maduro. They don't need any more motivation. The people need help. Maduro has the military in his pocket. Sanctions on the regime make it harder for Maduro to keep power, for example by drying up the funds Maduro would otherwise use to pay his thugs to oppress the citizenry/maintain power. 

Do they? Do you have evidence of that?

Quote

What do you advocate?

A continuation of the pre-existing talks between the Maduro government and opposition parties overseen and moderated by regional nations all aimed at free and fair elections. Also, the removal of all economic sanctions that are exacerbating the economic crisis and causing real and terrible human suffering.

[InkaUtexas 25907]

3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

What coalition? The U.S. and maybe Colombia?

Colombia for sure. And don't forget Brazil has been sharing a lot of the refugee burden. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47300962

Brazil says it will send humanitarian aid to its border with Venezuela by the weekend, despite the protests of embattled President Nicolás Maduro.

The delivery and distribution of the aid is being organised by Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó, the Brazilian presidential spokesman said.

Mr Maduro denies there is a crisis in Venezuela and calls the growing aid operation a US-orchestrated show.

Venezuela also closed its border with the Dutch island of Curacao.

[PittsburghTiger 6178]

SAN CRISTOBAL, Venezuela – Venezuelan soldiers opened fire on a group of civilians attempting to keep open a segment of the southern border with Brazil for deliveries of humanitarian aid, leading to multiple injuries and the first fatality of a massive opposition operation meant to deliver international relief into this devastated South American country, according to an eye-witnesses and community leaders.

At 6:30 a.m. on Friday, a military convoy approached a checkpoint set up by an indigenous community in the southern village of Kumarakapai, that rests on the main artery linking Venezuela to Brazil. When the volunteers sought to block the military vehicles by standing in front of them, soldiers began firing assault rifles, wounding at least 12 people, four of them seriously. One woman, Zorayda Rodriguez, 42, was killed.

“I ask the armed forces , is it constitutional for them to fire against unarmed indigenous people?” said Jorge Perez, a local councilman in Gran Sabana, the district where the town is located who said he was present when the soldiers opened fire. “Is it constitutional to kill indigenous people?”

 

At least 30 neighbors took to the streets following the shootings, kidnapping three soldiers, according to Carmen Elena Silva, 48, who had joined in the roadblock, and George Bello, a spokesperson for the indigenous community.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/one-dead-multiple-injured-after-venezuelan-national-guard-opens-fire-on-opposition-supporters/2019/02/22/09d60f1a-3518-11e9-8375-e3dcf6b68558_story.html?utm_term=.8d646e7da3ab

[phdhorn 6224]

13 minutes ago, PittsburghTiger said:

“I ask the armed forces , is it constitutional for them to fire against unarmed indigenous people?” said Jorge Perez, a local councilman in Gran Sabana, the district where the town is located who said he was present when the soldiers opened fire. “Is it constitutional to kill indigenous people?”

"Constitutional?"  Venezuela?

[Fozzz 152]

Good interview with Alfred de Zayas

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[PittsburghTiger 6178]

 

[PittsburghTiger 6178]

 

[David Dennison 18854]

They should have build a powerful wall.

[Crusher 127]

20 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

They should have build a powerful wall.

People are dying down there just because they want FOOD. Well I guess never waste an opportunity to skewer your opponent during a crisis.  Pitiful person that you are...Wow

[Crusher 127]

It's happening . Just look at what your glorious Socialist leader Maduro has wrought for his citizens now..

 

[bad_teammate 13194]

So do you guys actually feel good about our nation having a policy of starving people to death in order to get them to start a bloody civil war for the financial interests of our business sectors? Or do you think we're just a force for good who happens to ignore far worse monsters than Maduro when it suits our financial interests?

[Brisketexan 105095]

So do you guys actually feel good about our nation having a policy of starving people to death in order to get them to start a bloody civil war for the financial interests of our business sectors? Or do you think we're just a force for good who happens to ignore far worse monsters than Maduro when it suits our financial interests?

Depends. How do we feel about letting them continue to starve while a self-styled “socialist” tightens his grip on power, authorizes force against civilians, and stashes millions overseas (money that belongs to the people), slow-playing even more “talks and negotiation,” just so we can say “we’re not interfering?”

[Crusher 127]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

So do you guys actually feel good about our nation having a policy of starving people to death in order to get them to start a bloody civil war for the financial interests of our business sectors? Or do you think we're just a force for good who happens to ignore far worse monsters than Maduro when it suits our financial interests?

So what should we do? Just keep going on with business as usual while a few dickheads at the top of the food chain in Venezuela keep pilfering the profits derived from the natural resources of entire country only to enrich themselves?

That sounds like a good ideal.

[RDCanecutter 26411]

31 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

So do you guys actually feel good about our nation having a policy of starving people to death in order to get them to start a bloody civil war for the financial interests of our business sectors?

Our starvation policy appears to be ineffective because when I see photos of Venezuelans in the streets, about half of them look chunky, and the other half look like they play soccer. There may be some who are Yemeni-skinny, but I guess they stay home.

Would a civil war be much more bloody than the current regime? Except for some Cuban snipers, these are South-American-spray-bullets-in-the-air riffraff. They make Mussolini's Italian army look like British SAS.

I am cool with helping the financial interests of our business sectors.

Or do you think we're just a force for good who happens to ignore far worse monsters than Maduro when it suits our financial interests?

Force for good? I think we are the biggest fire-breathing Godzilla the world has ever seen, and I like it that way.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Long live President Guaidó and the Venezuelan people. Disgusting to see Maduro kill people and burn food intended to go to starving people.

[hpslugga 4058]

14 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Long live President Guaidó

You don't read very well, do you?

As for the Venezuelan people, you really should stop pretending to care about them.

Edited February 23, 2019 by hpslugga

[Crusher 127]

19 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Long live President Guaidó and the Venezuelan people. Disgusting to see Maduro kill people and burn food intended to go to starving people.

Damn straight. Sickening to see some of the socialists sycophants around here nuzzle up to Maduro's balls the way they do..

Edited February 23, 2019 by Crusher

[hpslugga 4058]

2 minutes ago, Crusher said:

Damn straight. Sickening to see some of the socialists sycophants around here nuzzle up to Maduro's balls the way they do..

This has nothing to do with socialism or anyone's imagined affinity for that thug Maduro. Show your ass elsewhere

Edited February 23, 2019 by hpslugga

[hpslugga 4058]

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/2/22/this_is_not_humanitarian_aid_a

AMY GOODMAN: We begin today’s show in Venezuela, where a standoff is escalating as opposition leader and self-proclaimed president Juan Guaidó claims he’s preparing to deliver so-called humanitarian aid from the Colombian border Saturday. Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro has rejected the plan, saying the effort is part of a broader attempt to overthrow his regime.

This comes as Trump’s special envoy to Venezuela and right-wing hawk, Elliott Abrams, is leading a U.S. delegation traveling by military aircraft to the Colombian-Venezuelan border, supposedly to help deliver the aid. It’s been one month since the U.S. recognized Guaidó as Venezuela’s new president, in an attempt to oust Maduro from power. Since then, it’s placed sweeping sanctions on Venezuela’s state-run oil company and rejected calls for an international dialogue to resolve the crisis. The United Nations, the Red Cross and other relief organizations have refused to work with the U.S. on delivering that aid to Venezuela, which these groups say is politically motivated.

This is Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó speaking to Fox Business.

JUAN GUAIDÓ: [translated] We will have a fantastic opportunity this Saturday to accept important humanitarian aid that the government in Venezuela has forbidden. And we have a fantastic example to pull our country out of this crisis.

AMY GOODMAN: On Thursday, Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro announced plans to close the border with Brazil, and possibly also with Colombia, ahead of the Venezuelan opposition’s plans to bring in the aid despite his objection.

PRESIDENT NICOLÁS MADURO: [translated] Starting at 8 p.m. today, Thursday, February 21st, the land border with Brazil will be completely and absolutely closed until further notice. It is better to prevent than to regret, to take all the measures for the assurance and protection of our people. I am considering a complete closure of the border with Colombia. A prepared man is worth two. A prepared people is worth two.

AMY GOODMAN: Tonight, the Venezuela-Colombia border will be the site of dueling concerts—one organized by the British billionaire Richard Branson, the other by the Venezuelan government. This comes as U.S. Vice President Mike Pence is scheduled to visit Colombia Monday to demand President Maduro step down. Pence will deliver remarks to the Lima Group. Mexico is the only country in the group of 14 nations that has refused to recognize Juan Guaidó as Venezuela’s new president.

Meanwhile, in Washington, D.C., Medea Benjamin, the co-founder of the peace group CodePink, disrupted an event there, where Guaidó’s envoy to the United States spoke.

CARLOS VECCHIO: So, Gustavo.

MEDEA BENJAMIN: Excuse me. Just as you are trying to take over the Venezuelan government, I want to say these people are a fraud. They don’t represent the Venezuelan people. They are representing the U.S.-orchestrated coup. This is a very dangerous situation. They want to create a crisis at the border that would be a justification for U.S. intervention. This has nothing to do with a humanitarian situation. Indeed, for a humanitarian situation, the U.S. would lift the economic sanctions that have exacerbated the crisis. The issue at the border now is something that is politicizing humanitarian aid. That is why the Red Cross, the United Nations and all the legitimate humanitarian groups have insisted that they will not touch this aid.

What we need now is negotiations. These people here want to take Venezuela to a path of civil war and U.S. intervention. What the Venezuelan people need is negotiations mediated by Mexico—I’m almost finished—mediated by Mexico, by the Uruguayans and by the Vatican. So, let’s say that if you indeed care about the people of Venezuela, you will be calling for negotiations. You will not recognize these people who are willing pawns in a Trump-orchestrated coup d’état. Thank you for listening to the voice of reason.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Medea Benjamin [inaudible] Venezuela news conference in Washington, D.C.

Well, for more, we go to Caracas, Venezuela, where we’re joined by Edgardo Lander, a sociologist who’s part of the Citizen’s Platform in Defense of the Constitution. Lander is a retired professor at the Central University of Venezuela. Because it’s in Caracas, there is a long audio delay, so please bear with us.

Edgardo Lander, welcome to Democracy Now! Can you describe the situation in the country right now and the effect of the pressure on the border?

EDGARDO LANDER: Good morning, Amy. Glad to be with you.

The situation in Venezuela right now is really quite, quite tense. The 23rd—that is, Saturday—when the so-called humanitarian aid is supposed to come into the country, according to Guaidó’s people, no matter what, presents a very, very serious threat to Venezuela, a very serious threat in terms of the possibilities of violence. This is certainly not some humanitarian aid; it’s a humanitarian intervention.

If the United States were really interested in democracy—the government, of course, were interested in democracy and human rights and the humanitarian situation of the Venezuelan population, the first thing they will have to do is stop the blockade that’s impacting the Venezuelan people enormously, as the Venezuelan government has extreme difficulties in gaining access to foreign markets. Its trade is made extremely difficult because the whole financial system is, in one way or another, controlled by the United States. And this blockade limits the possibilities of access to trade partners, etc.

On the other hand, enormous amounts of money, billions of dollars in Venezuelan assets, have been taken over by the U.S. government. And it’s absolutely cynical that the U.S. government is claiming to be worried about the humanitarian situation of Venezuelans, offering a few million dollars, when billions of dollars are being kept away from the Venezuelan government’s capacity to respond to the deep crisis that the Venezuelans are facing.

There is this threat of going into Venezuela no matter what. The hawks and the neocons that accompany Trump in these policies are well known. These are people like Abrams or—Elliott, or Bolton, that have had well-known trajectories of military interventions in different places of the world. And obviously there’s no concern whatsoever for the lives of Venezuelan people. The situation is so tense that the 23rd could be the spark that starts a violent, even civil war situation in the country. So, the absolute need to find some sort of solution, some sort of negotiation, that would stop this escalation of violence, is absolutely critical. And this has to be done soon, because Saturday is a very critical day.

AMY GOODMAN: So, if you can talk about the role of Venezuelans themselves in negotiating a solution? The possibility, the calls for the pope to be involved—of course, the pope is originally from Argentina—the pope to be involved, Mexico to be involved, with the new president, AMLO, Andrés Manuel López Obrador. And what about the people themselves in Venezuela? Your group—what is Citizen’s Platform calling for?

EDGARDO LANDER: The Citizen’s Platform in Defense of the Constitution is calling for a referendum that has been established in the Venezuelan Constitution when issues of critical national importance have to be faced. This is a situation where we face a deep constitutional crisis. We have a struggle between the National Assembly, on one hand, and the executive, on the other hand. They don’t recognize each other as legitimate. And as a consequence, there is this tug in which politics is seen as an enemy-friend confrontation in which the purpose of policy is to destroy the enemy, to completely squash it. There’s no will on either hand today to enter into some sort of agreement that would allow for the Venezuelan people to decide what they want their future to be.

The Citizen’s Platform in Defense of the Constitution, as well as other groups—mainly from the left, but not only—have been arguing that we need this consultative referendum in order to have the Venezuelan people decide if they want to have new authorities overall in the country—that is, all the national powers, including the executive and the National Assembly. But that requires an agreement, because we need a new National Electoral Council. The current Electoral Council is completely controlled by the government, and it’s not trustworthy for the majority of the Venezuelan population. So we would need, as a first step, some basic agreement, a consensual National Electoral Council, and then this call for a referendum in which the Venezuelan people can actually give their own opinion and decide whether they want to keep the present authorities or if they want to completely renew the political system—not the structure of the system, but who’s the president today, what’s the Assembly.

As it is right now, the National Assembly is calling for the need for presidential elections, and, on the other hand, President Maduro is calling for the need for new parliamentary elections. So, none of the sides is willing to reach an agreement. We would, of course, need some sort of accompaniment by some international actors. And as you mentioned, the possibilities of having the presidents of Uruguay, of Mexico, maybe the secretary-general of the United Nations and the pope, would be extremely critical in terms of the possibility of reaching such an agreement. So, this requires—there’s two things: on one hand, pressure and involvement by these people who are not interested in violence but trying to avoid a civil war, and this has been the statement of Uruguay, Mexico, the pope, and, on the other hand, pressure from the Venezuelan people to have this minimal agreement for a new Electoral Council and the referendum that would let people decide.

There are reasons why there is huge, huge, massive discontent in Venezuela in relation to the Maduro government. The crises that the Venezuelan people are facing are, to a great extent, the responsibility of this government, that has been extremely corrupt, inefficient, and has become increasingly repressive. But that in no way justifies a U.S. military intervention or this attempt to strangle the Venezuelan economy, which is of course doing much [more] harm to the Venezuelan people than to the Venezuelan government.

So, in this situation, where today, I would say, a majority of the people in Venezuela reject the Maduro government, and, on the other hand, a great majority also reject U.S. intervention, we need a negotiation that opens the way for Venezuelans to decide by themselves. And this is the option of both this negotiation with some international backing, on one hand, and this referendum that we are calling for, from the platform and other groups in Venezuela that think that the biggest threat for Venezuelans today is the threat of this escalation of violence, the possibility of a civil war and the possibility, that has been announced again and again, of a military intervention by the United States government.

AMY GOODMAN: During his speech on Monday, President Trump called Maduro a, quote, “Cuban puppet.” This is what he said.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Incredibly, there are members of the Venezuelan military still barely supporting this failed dictatorship. They are risking their future. They are risking their lives and Venezuela’s future for a man controlled by the Cuban military and protected by a private army of Cuban soldiers. Maduro is not a Venezuelan patriot; he is a Cuban puppet. That’s what he is.

AMY GOODMAN: During his speech on Monday, Trump laid out what he called a, quote, “ugly alliance” between Cuba and Venezuela.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: For decades, the socialist dictatorships of Cuba and Venezuela have propped each other up in a very corrupt bargain. Venezuela gave Cuba oil. In return, Cuba gave Venezuela a police state run directly from Havana. But this is a much different day, and those days are over. The ugly alliance between the two dictatorships is coming to a rapid end.

AMY GOODMAN: That was President Trump speaking in Miami Monday. A new book out this week by former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe reveals Trump privately discussed going to war with Venezuela in 2017. McCabe writes, quote, “Then the president talked about Venezuela. That’s the country we should be going to war with, he said. They have all that oil and they’re right on our back door.”

So, Edgardo Lander, as you speak to us from Caracas, can you respond to what exactly the U.S. is doing, who Guaidó is, and this issue of humanitarian aid, the concerns of many? You have a plane that’s been flying in back and forth, or planes, from a company in North Carolina—apparently, about 40 flights. The Venezuelan government found weapons stash, perhaps from one of those flights. It’s a company that has previously worked with the CIA. The fact that the United Nations and the Red Cross have both said they won’t work on this so-called humanitarian aid, because it is politically motivated, and that it is not humanitarian aid. What you think will be happening on the border, with Elliott Abrams being flown in by military transport with his delegation to the Colombia-Venezuelan border? And the significance of Maduro closing the Brazil-Venezuela border and considering closing this border, the Colombia-Venezuela border?

EDGARDO LANDER: Well, in the first place, I’d like to insist on the fact that this certainly is not humanitarian aid, and it’s not oriented with any humanitarian aims. This is clearly a coup carried out by the United States government with its allies, with the Lima Group and the extreme right wing in Venezuela. The opposition, the right-wing opposition, in Venezuela, the people who control Parliament and the opposition parties, have been weakened over the last few years, and they had not been able to agree on any single policy in relation to ways to confront the Maduro government. But now it’s obvious that this very extreme right wing has been in close coordination with the United States government for some time now. And this script that has been followed since Guaidó self-proclaimed himself as president is a script that’s basically a U.S. script. And this script is on the works right now.

There is no concern about the situation of the Venezuelan population, because, as I said before, if you take away billions from the capacity of the government in Venezuela to respond to the needs for medicine and food, on one hand, and you offer a few million dollars in food and medicine on the Colombian border, there is no proportion whatsoever, and it’s clear that the purpose is not to respond to the situation of the Venezuelan population, but to create a conflict in the border. As people have been called by the Guaidó—by Guaidó and his people to concentrate at the border, and this concert has been organized on the Colombian side of the government, this could lead to a confrontation between the two sides. The Venezuelan government has announced that it might close the border. It hasn’t been decided yet. But the possibility of the closing of the border means that, as there is now—there’s Venezuelan military presence in this side of the border, and there’s obviously all sorts of paramilitary groups, CIA representatives, members of the armed forces of Colombia on the other side. And anything could spark some violence that could lead to the beginning of a confrontation. I don’t think that Saturday will be D-Day, in which a great confrontation will start, but it’s a possibility that it could be the spark that could lead to increased violence and the possibility of a civil war.

So, we have to confront this supposedly humanitarian aid, which is not humanitarian aid. It’s just direct intervention in order to have regime change, which has been the purpose of the Trump government from the very beginning. And we know what regime change has meant in other places. We know the experience of regime change in Libya. We know the experience of regime change in Iraq. We know what the people in Syria are facing today as a consequence of these imperial attempts to have regime change. So, there is no possibility that this so-called humanitarian aid will make any positive contribution to the Venezuelan situation. It’s just going to make it worse, because it’s deepening the crisis in terms of medicine and food for the Venezuelan people, on one hand, it’s increasing the likelihood of an escalation of violence, and it’s opening up the doors to the possibility of a civil war.

So, the need for some sort of negotiation, for putting a stop to this escalation, and to put the blame, on one hand, on Maduro’s responsibility for having, throughout this six years of government, created such an incredible collapse of the Venezuelan economy—today, the economy is half of what it used to be when Maduro came to power, and this is basically the government’s responsibility. U.S. sanctions against Venezuela, Trump’s sanctions against Venezuela, started a year and a half ago, around mid-2017. But the crisis came from way before. U.S. sanctions have deepened the crisis, but they are not the main cause of the crisis. The main cause of the crisis is ineptitude and massive corruption by the Maduro government.

So, we in Venezuela are faced with these two evils, with these two confronting enemies that have the Venezuelan people in between, paying for their own ineptitude, for their own violence, for their own political purpose, which are not the purposes of the Venezuelan population. We need to have some sort of pressure on the U.S. government to stop this level of intervention, this threat of military intervention. And we have to call on the Maduro government to be willing to open up a negotiation, because there are a lot of reasons why people in Venezuela don’t really trust Maduro when he calls about his willingness to negotiate, because he always says the same thing. But when negotiations are always carried out, they are negotiations in which he has not been willing to do anything. He hasn’t been willing to cede on any one basic issue.

AMY GOODMAN: Edgardo Lander, I want to thank you—

EDGARDO LANDER: The Venezuela government today is—

AMY GOODMAN: —for being with us. Edgardo is a sociologist, speaking to us from Caracas, Venezuela, where he’s part of the Citizen’s Platform in Defense of the Constitution, a retired professor at Central University of Venezuela.

Edited February 24, 2019 by hpslugga

[Crusher 127]

1 minute ago, hpslugga said:

This has nothing to do with socialism or anyone's imagined affinity for that thug Maduro. Show your ass elsewhere

Well, you picked a strange hill to die on my friend.

If it doesn't have any thing to do with socialism then please enlighten me. Why are people dying today in Venezuela?

[hpslugga 4058]

11 minutes ago, Crusher said:

Well, you picked a strange hill to die on my friend.

If it doesn't have any thing to do with socialism then please enlighten me. Why are people dying today in Venezuela?

This has nothing to do with dying on a hill, Venezuela isn't a socialist nation, and Maduro isn't in any way a socialist head of state (that's a contradiction in terms just on its face). 70% of their economy, as I've said before, is controlled by the private sector. Your insistence to the contrary is an indictment of your utter incapability to understand anything meaningful, including those political buzzwords that you sloppily throw around while being absolutely wrong about absolutely everything that you've said thus far.

Why are people dying in Venezuela? They have an authoritarian despot whose government can't keep their fucking hands out of the till, and that's being exacerbated by US sanctions that are imposed for politically selfish reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with any humanitarian concerns for Venezuelans.  

Edited February 24, 2019 by hpslugga

[Crusher 127]

2 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/2/22/this_is_not_humanitarian_aid_a

Really. A website called democracy now is backing a proven , definition of a socialist, dictator Maduro. They even call Guaido a self proclaimed President. The Venezuelan National Assembly named him President after a complete farce of an election that kept Maduro in power.

https://www.apnews.com/aa9832050aca4f33a1196f97b75e9d1d

Pretty weak argument there...

[hpslugga 4058]

16 minutes ago, Crusher said:

Really. A website called democracy now is backing a proven , definition of a socialist, dictator Maduro.

You didn't even bother to read the transcript or watch the video. If you had, you'd notice that they were interviewing a rather eloquent, not to mention ardent, Maduro critic. Edgardo Lander is not a Maduro supporter, and he demonstrated that clearly even to the simplest of minds.

16 minutes ago, Crusher said:

Pretty weak argument there...

Pretty fraudulent of you to make such a claim when you don't even know what the argument is. 

And it's pretty hilarious that you think you "won" the "argument" by talking about Guaido when his interim Presidency is, by their own constitution, scheduled to end after 30 consecutive days and they have to hold new elections. Yesterday was the 30th day, no such election is in sight. That somehow gets lost on people here.

Edited February 24, 2019 by hpslugga

[Crusher 127]

4 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

You didn't even bother to read the transcript or watch the video. If you had, you'd notice that they were interviewing a rather eloquent, not to mention ardent, Maduro critic.

Pretty fraudulent of you to make such a claim when you don't even know what the argument is. 

I watched the video.."right wing hawk Elliot Abrams" and blah ,blah blah.. "The aid is politically motivated" Really? I have never seen people willing to risk there lives to get food for their families just because of a "political hoax".  I guess that the video I posted above was shot at another border where we have a "manufactured crisis". That blood on that women's face looked pretty real. The cut on her forehead will results in a scar that she will carry for the rest of her life.

But, you go ahead and back a Dictator that the rest of the world is lining up to condemn. Tell us how smart you are and how dumb we must be for disagreeing with you. 

[hpslugga 4058]

Just now, Crusher said:

I watched the video.."right wing hawk Elliot Abrams" and blah ,blah blah.. "The aid is politically motivated" Really? I have never seen people willing to risk there lives to get food for their families just because of a "political hoax".  I guess that the video I posted above was shot at another border where we have a "manufactured crisis". That blood on that women's face looked pretty real. The cut on her forehead will results in a scar that she will carry for the rest of her life.

Again, you didn't even bother to notice that the bulk of it was spent interviewing a Maduro critic who also argues that this is not humanitarian aid. You get upset and imply that I called you stupid for disagreeing with me. I don't say that. I say that you're incapable of understanding that two things can be true at the same time. Here are the two things:

1. Maduro is a corrupt thug that shouldn't be in power for another microsecond
2. The "aid" that the US is sending Venezuelan is not humanitarian.

People who refuse to view the world strictly in black and white like you do can understand things like this.

Just now, Crusher said:

But, you go ahead and back a Dictator that the rest of the world is lining up to condemn. 

I don't support Maduro, and you know that. You are lying, and you're going to be told that as long as you keep up this bullshit circus act.

[Crusher 127]

10 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Again, you didn't even bother to notice that the bulk of it was spent interviewing a Maduro critic who also argues that this is not humanitarian aid. You get upset and imply that I called you stupid for disagreeing with me. I don't say that. I say that you're incapable of understanding that two things can be true at the same time. Here are the two things:

1. Maduro is a corrupt thug that shouldn't be in power for another microsecond
2. The "aid" that the US is sending Venezuelan is not humanitarian.

People who refuse to view the world strictly in black and white like you do can understand things like this.

I don't support Maduro, and you know that. You are lying, and you're going to be told that as long as you keep up this bullshit circus act.

If your not supporting Maduro then what the fuck are you doing here? I mean, really what are you arguing?

You don't like people pointing out another example of a failed political doctrine that you espouse to? OK. I get that but, bugger off some where else and spew that shit. You are wrong here.

 Go collect yourself and get in "happy or safe space" and return to fight another day. Jesus, what a douchebag you are.

Edit: You don't have to neg every post I make. I get it. You and I disagree. I don't do that to you or anyone else I disagree with on this site.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Crusher

[hpslugga 4058]

11 minutes ago, Crusher said:

Edit: You don't have to neg every post I make. I get it. You and I disagree. I don't do that to you or anyone else I disagree with on this site.

I don't neg you for disagreeing. I neg you for being incapable of understanding the most basic of issues and being fantastically dishonest in doing so. I've very frequently referred to Icono as being a walking, breathing example of the Dunning Kruger effect, but clearly I'm wrong about that because you're Bob Beamon'ing him here.

And you still don't get it regarding Maduro and Venezuela. They are not socialist by any means, they never have been, and even Fox News has an AP article on their website acknowledging that in rather spectacular detail and it was written quite a while back.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/what-socialism-private-sector-still-dominates-venezuelan-economy-despite-chavez-crusade

Edited February 24, 2019 by hpslugga

[GHOSTUSER 361]

1 hour ago, hpslugga said:

You don't read very well, do you?

As for the Venezuelan people, you really should stop pretending to care about them.

I care about starving people. Ethiopians in the 80s and Venezuelans now. You can now wax poetic about no one understanding what socialism really is except for you. 

Edited February 24, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[Crusher 127]

6 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

I don't neg you for disagreeing. I neg you for being incapable of understanding the most basic of issues and being fantastically dishonest in doing so. I've very frequently referred to Icono as being a walking, breathing example of the Dunning Kruger effect, but clearly I'm wrong about that because you're Bob Beamon'ing him here.

And you still don't get it regarding Maduro and Venezuela. They are not socialist by any means, and even Fox News has an AP article on their website acknowledging that in rather spectacular detail and it was written quite a while back.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/what-socialism-private-sector-still-dominates-venezuelan-economy-despite-chavez-crusade

What!!!??? Your own article that you posted disagrees with you in the first paragraph.

CARACAS – CARACAS (AP) — It's President Hugo Chavez's biggest economic battle cry, and it's getting louder as Venezuela suffers a recession: "We're going to bury Venezuelan capitalism."

Edit: go ahead and neg me again you douche.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Crusher

[hpslugga 4058]

3 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

I care about starving people. Ethiopians in the 80s and Venezuelans now. You can now wax poetic about no one understanding what socialism really is except for you. 

I'm not the only one who does, not even here. 

[GHOSTUSER 361]

1 hour ago, Crusher said:

Well, you picked a strange hill to die on my friend.

If it doesn't have any thing to do with socialism then please enlighten me. Why are people dying today in Venezuela?

Don’t waste your time. You’re arguing with a guy who smugly thinks he knows more about Allende than Rimbo even though Rimbo focused an entire semester on the Pinochet coup and couldn’t counter what he was saying

Edited February 24, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[hpslugga 4058]

4 minutes ago, Crusher said:

What!!!??? Your own article that you posted disagrees with you in the first paragraph.

CARACAS – CARACAS (AP) — It's President Hugo Chavez's biggest economic battle cry, and it's getting louder as Venezuela suffers a recession: "We're going to bury Venezuelan capitalism."

Edit: go ahead and neg me again you douche.

Still reading selectively, I see. Or are you one of those superficial idiots who thinks that political rhetoric is an accurate depiction of policy? Because that's exactly what the article sought to dispel from the very outset, which you've have noticed if you had continued. Hell, right after that selective copy and paste of yours reads:

"Yet creating a socialist economy is one of Chavez's most elusive goals — a stark example of the disconnect between the president's rhetoric and the reality on the ground. In fact, the private sector still controls two-thirds of Venezuela's economy — the same as when Chavez was elected in 1998, according to estimates by the Central Bank."