Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

[bad_teammate 13524]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Again, straw man.  If you can cite one post by me -- even one -- where I suggest an American military invasion/action, then you can keep your post up.  Otherwise, you are fucking lying. 

I can keep my post up regardless, tough guy. lol

Then what are you advocating as a comparison to Nazi-punching here in America? What is your point?

Quote

And even better, you keep saying that the negotiations with despots are "likely far more successful."  Support for that conclusion?  Evidence?  ANYTHING?  You keep saying over and over and over that negotiation with despots will bear fruit, as if repeating it will make it true.....what is your basis and support for that conclusion?

Myanmar, Argentina, Brazil (going back in the wrong direction, sadly), Turkey (same as Brazil), Philippines (same as the last two), Japan, Indonesia, Spain. I'm sure there are more, but there are plenty of examples of successful transitions to democracy that didn't require external intervention. Sometimes highly flawed democracies, but democracies.

Again, we have a president who lost the popular vote and is an international menace and laughing stock. We are a flawed/broken democracy ourselves. I would oppose foreign intervention designed to make us want to kill each other in order to make political reforms those outside forces would prefer.

[InkaUtexas 26891]

hehe, you said Myanmar... The regime of the generals still to this day. And it is Burma. Did you miss the Rohingya issue? This article is less than a year old. I won't even bring up the continued conflict in East Burma. 

The plight of hundreds of thousands of Rohingya people is said to be the world's fastest growing refugee crisis.

Risking death by sea or on foot, nearly 700,000 have fled the destruction of their homes and persecution in the northern Rakhine province of Myanmar (Burma) for neighbouring Bangladesh since August 2017.

The United Nations described the military offensive in Rakhine, which provoked the exodus, as a "textbook example of ethnic cleansing". 

Myanmar's military says it is fighting Rohingya militants and denies targeting civilians.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41566561

 

Authoritarian regimes talk and say the right things, but they do not change. 

So why is Brazil going the other way? If Lula's vision had worked then there would not have been a transition away from his party. 

[Fozzz 152]

1 hour ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

I wanted the humanitarian aid to get through to the starving people of Venezuela on Saturday. Unfortunately, most of it didn’t as Maduro and his thugs lit the food and medicine on fire. The silver lining is that videos of it went viral further strengthening President Guaidó and the opposition as the sole, legitimate government serving the people of their country. 

The arguments that the Fozz, bad teammate and hpslugga make against intervention are further shown to be devoid of any compassion or morality. Thankfully, the Venezuelan opposition is ready to accept international military intervention to rid themselves of the Chavista cancer. NATO bombed Yugoslavia to stop the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and achieved those objectives and had international support doing so. No one other than Iran, Cuba and Russia (fuck all of the govt’s of those countries) will oppose limited air strikes to help the opposition cause. The article mentions some lip service that a few countries like Chile have voiced some concerns about intervention. That’s just necessary lip service to assuage concerns about any imperialist motives. President Guaidó is showing incredible leadership and talent at such a young age.

  Reveal hidden contents

Maduro’s Opposition Urges Military Force in Venezuela

Guaidó, Pence and regional diplomats will meet in neighboring Colombia to weigh options after government cracks down on protesters, stops international aid

By 

José de Córdoba and 

Ryan Dube 

Updated Feb. 24, 2019 6:41 p.m. ET

Demonstrators throw stones at Venezuelan National Guard members standing guard on the Venezuela-Brazil border, in Pacaraima, Brazil, on Sunday. Photo: nelson almeida/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images

CÚCUTA, Colombia—Venezuela’s opposition called for the first time on the international community to consider the use of military force against President Nicolás Maduro, escalating a standoff after a weekend showdown over humanitarian aid ended in violence. 

Proposals for increased pressure on the authoritarian leader will be made during a meeting on Monday in the Colombian capital Bogotá. Opposition leader Juan Guaidó, who is recognized as Venezuela’s rightful president by more than 50 countries, including the U.S., will participate along with U.S. Vice President Mike Pence and regional diplomats.

“We will present firm positions which are an escalation of diplomatic measures, and political measures including the use of force for blocking the humanitarian aid and generating an unprecedented violence,” said Julio Borges, a top opposition leader.

Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó, center, is escorted by Colombian Air Force Gen. Luis Carlos Cordoba, right, and Colombian Foreign Minister Carlos Holmes Trujillo during a welcome ceremony for him at the military airport in Bogota on Sunday. Photo: Efrain Herrera/Colombian Presidency/Associated Press

In Washington, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo described Mr. Maduro as a “sick tyrant” and repeated that “every option is on the table,” when asked about the possible use of military force.

Jorge Rodriguez, Mr. Maduro’s communications minister, blamed violence over the weekend on the opposition and foreign adversaries in Colombia. He said the National Guard was ensuring public order and responding to aggression by government opponents.

“We reject any form of aggression against the Venezuelan territory,” Mr. Rodriguez said.

The calls to consider a military intervention followed a weekend that the opposition had considered pivotal, vowing to get aid into Venezuela and calling for the military to turn against Mr. Maduro.

On Friday, Mr. Guaidó defied a ban on leaving Venezuela to cross into Colombia, where he stopped at a fundraising concert organized by British businessman Richard Branson in Cucúta.

It is uncertain whether Mr. Guaidó will be able to return to Venezuela and what that will mean for the opposition.

On Saturday, Venezuelan security forces and paramilitary groups along the borders with Colombia and Brazil turned back efforts to get food and medicine across the frontier.

Trump Leads Allied Approach to Venezuela Crisis

From the beginning of the Trump administration, critics have chided President Trump for not working more closely with allies. But right now the U.S. is working with allies in Venezuela. WSJ's Gerald F. Seib explains. Photo: Getty

Two people were killed, more than 300 were wounded—nearly all of them civilians—and two aid trucks were burned by what observers said were forces loyal to Mr. Maduro. 

Mr. Maduro’s government said the aid was poisoned and was an excuse to try to intervene in the country’s affairs.

While some members of Venezuela’s opposition have long said a U.S.-led military intervention would be the only way to dislodge Mr. Maduro’s government, this call marks the first time the opposition has formally asked its international allies to consider the step.

“The violence and the intransigence on the Venezuelan government’s side brought us a couple of steps closer to a violent outcome here,” said Phil Gunson, an analyst at International Crisis Group, a think tank aimed at peacefully resolving conflicts. “It will certainly make it more difficult for a negotiated solution to occur.”

---

 

Showdown at Venezuela-Colombia Border

 

Tensions flare as opponents of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro attempt to deliver aid through a heavily armed blockade.

Oscar B. Castillo for The Wall Street Journal

---

“Yesterday that road of reconciliation was exhausted,” said Venezuelan lawmaker Sonia Miranda, who lives in exile in Miami and was one of the leaders of the bid to get aid into Venezuela. “The military option is the one we should appeal to at the moment.”

Many frustrated Venezuelans would agree. On Saturday, Josefa Merinto, a retired grandmother, watched the smoke from a burning aid truck. “Gentlemen, the best help you can give is American intervention,” she said. “We don’t have the capacity to knock Maduro out.”

On Saturday evening, the No. 1 world-wide trending topic on Twitter was #IntervencionMilitarYa, or “#MilitaryInterventionNow.”

The U.S. has recently increased pressure on Mr. Maduro through sanctions on Venezuela’s crucial oil industry and by supporting the opposition’s offer of amnesty for military officials who help restore democracy.

“After discussions tonight with several regional leaders, it is now clear that the grave crimes committed today by the Maduro regime have opened the door to various potential multilateral actions not on the table just 24 hours ago,” Sen. Marco Rubio (R., Fla.) wrote Saturday on Twitter.

In the U.S., however, all but the most hawkish of the Trump administration are leery of being drawn into a military intervention. Canada and Latin American governments have said they won’t support armed intervention.

“Military action is not the right course at this point,” said Eric Farnsworth of the Americas Society/Council of the Americas, a Washington-based think tank. “It would be a step too far that would break up the international coalition against Maduro.”

Chile’s foreign minister said on Sunday the country wouldn’t support a military option for Venezuela. A high-ranking Peruvian official said he was adamantly opposed to such a step.

Mr. Farnsworth said a coordinated program of increased sanctions including the cancellation of visas of family members of important Maduro officials living in Europe and other countries would increase pressure.

On Sunday, the European Union denounced the violence as it called for Venezuelan security forces to show restraint and allow aid to enter. It also called for a political solution.

Tensions have grown quickly in the past five weeks over Venezuela, which is suffering Latin America’s worst recorded economic crisis and the world’s highest inflation.

Mr. Guaidó, as head of the country’s National Assembly, proclaimed himself interim president on Jan. 23 and was quickly backed by a groundswell of support from ordinary Venezuelans and most Western democracies.

The U.S.-backed opposition had hoped Mr. Guaidó’s challenge might force a split in the country’s armed forces, pushing Mr. Maduro from power and paving the way for new elections.

This past weekend’s attempt to move in humanitarian aid was another attempt to test the armed forces. More than 100 military officers defected over the weekend, Colombia’s migration office said, with some swearing allegiance to Mr. Guaidó.

Mr. Maduro has struck a defiant tone, setting the stage for a drawn-out crisis. A U.S. official involved in the aid effort said “we are barely in the first inning,” predicting the confrontation would go on for a long time. “Anybody who thinks this will take a short time is not looking at what’s in front of them.”

The officers who defected said the majority of soldiers were unhappy with the government, but were too afraid to act.

“My colleagues also want to get out, but it’s dangerous, it takes courage,” said Sgt. Carlos Eduardo Zapata, who abandoned his post at the National Guard on Sunday in plain clothes and walked an hour to the Brazilian side of the border. “People insult us, but they need to understand we are afraid. We are military. If we try to leave we risk prison and even death. They threaten our family.”

For some Venezuelans, the opposition’s failure to get the aid into the country strengthened Mr. Maduro’s grip on power.

“We are demoralized because we didn’t meet our objectives,” said Nelson Fernandez, a 41-year-old merchant based in the border city of San Cristobal. “We thought it would all be different this time. I feel we are at a dead end in Venezuela. Maduro is stronger now.”

—Maolis Castro in San Cristobal, Venezuela, 
Paulo Trevisani 
in Pacaraima, Brazil, and 
Daniela Blandon in Cucúta 
contributed to this article.

Write to José de Córdoba at jose.decordoba@wsj.com and Ryan Dube at ryan.dube@dowjones.com

Appeared in the February 25, 2019, print edition as 'Maduro’s Opposition Urges Military Force in Venezuela.

lol. Pleading "please, US, come invade Venezuela and murder my countrymen" is surely a sign of strength for the usurper.  

Does anyone know if molotov cocktails are capable of starting fires?

 

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Straw man -- I didn't say that the UN election monitoring team doesn't do a good job.  The predicate is that they have to be INVITED/ALLOWED in.  That's a big one here.  Asking authoritarians to stop being all authoritarian, and hold free and fair elections under international monitoring....well, that's as fucking pointless as asking nazis not to be all nazi-ish.

THAT'S the comparison.  He's an anti-democratic authoritarian (and you've already read my take on the fact that the differences between "socialist" authoritarians and "fascist" authoritarians are not particularly important -- they each create a privileged ruling class that loots the country's wealth for themselves, they quash dissent and any effort at democratic reform, etc. etc.).  Asking anti-democratic authoritarians to PLEASE be democratic and fair, PRETTY PLEASE is laughable.  Just like asking nazis to be nice is laughable.

I remain curious why you think that punching anti-democratic tools is cool, except when you don't.

SIMPLE ANSWER:  You have to be on the correct anti democratic team to not get punched.  He's the peoples front of Judea, not the Judean peoples front.

[David Dennison 19542]

1 hour ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

I wanted the humanitarian aid to get through to the starving people of Venezuela on Saturday. Unfortunately, most of it didn’t as Maduro and his thugs lit the food and medicine on fire. The silver lining is that videos of it went viral further strengthening President Guaidó and the opposition as the sole, legitimate government serving the people of their country. 

The arguments that the Fozz, bad teammate and hpslugga make against intervention are further shown to be devoid of any compassion or morality. Thankfully, the Venezuelan opposition is ready to accept international military intervention to rid themselves of the Chavista cancer. NATO bombed Yugoslavia to stop the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and achieved those objectives and had international support doing so. No one other than Iran, Cuba and Russia (fuck all of the govt’s of those countries) will oppose limited air strikes to help the opposition cause. The article mentions some lip service that a few countries like Chile have voiced some concerns about intervention. That’s just necessary lip service to assuage concerns about any imperialist motives. President Guaidó is showing incredible leadership and talent at such a young age.

  Reveal hidden contents

Maduro’s Opposition Urges Military Force in Venezuela

Guaidó, Pence and regional diplomats will meet in neighboring Colombia to weigh options after government cracks down on protesters, stops international aid

By 

José de Córdoba and 

Ryan Dube 

Updated Feb. 24, 2019 6:41 p.m. ET

Demonstrators throw stones at Venezuelan National Guard members standing guard on the Venezuela-Brazil border, in Pacaraima, Brazil, on Sunday. Photo: nelson almeida/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images

CÚCUTA, Colombia—Venezuela’s opposition called for the first time on the international community to consider the use of military force against President Nicolás Maduro, escalating a standoff after a weekend showdown over humanitarian aid ended in violence. 

Proposals for increased pressure on the authoritarian leader will be made during a meeting on Monday in the Colombian capital Bogotá. Opposition leader Juan Guaidó, who is recognized as Venezuela’s rightful president by more than 50 countries, including the U.S., will participate along with U.S. Vice President Mike Pence and regional diplomats.

“We will present firm positions which are an escalation of diplomatic measures, and political measures including the use of force for blocking the humanitarian aid and generating an unprecedented violence,” said Julio Borges, a top opposition leader.

Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó, center, is escorted by Colombian Air Force Gen. Luis Carlos Cordoba, right, and Colombian Foreign Minister Carlos Holmes Trujillo during a welcome ceremony for him at the military airport in Bogota on Sunday. Photo: Efrain Herrera/Colombian Presidency/Associated Press

In Washington, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo described Mr. Maduro as a “sick tyrant” and repeated that “every option is on the table,” when asked about the possible use of military force.

Jorge Rodriguez, Mr. Maduro’s communications minister, blamed violence over the weekend on the opposition and foreign adversaries in Colombia. He said the National Guard was ensuring public order and responding to aggression by government opponents.

“We reject any form of aggression against the Venezuelan territory,” Mr. Rodriguez said.

The calls to consider a military intervention followed a weekend that the opposition had considered pivotal, vowing to get aid into Venezuela and calling for the military to turn against Mr. Maduro.

On Friday, Mr. Guaidó defied a ban on leaving Venezuela to cross into Colombia, where he stopped at a fundraising concert organized by British businessman Richard Branson in Cucúta.

It is uncertain whether Mr. Guaidó will be able to return to Venezuela and what that will mean for the opposition.

On Saturday, Venezuelan security forces and paramilitary groups along the borders with Colombia and Brazil turned back efforts to get food and medicine across the frontier.

Trump Leads Allied Approach to Venezuela Crisis

From the beginning of the Trump administration, critics have chided President Trump for not working more closely with allies. But right now the U.S. is working with allies in Venezuela. WSJ's Gerald F. Seib explains. Photo: Getty

Two people were killed, more than 300 were wounded—nearly all of them civilians—and two aid trucks were burned by what observers said were forces loyal to Mr. Maduro. 

Mr. Maduro’s government said the aid was poisoned and was an excuse to try to intervene in the country’s affairs.

While some members of Venezuela’s opposition have long said a U.S.-led military intervention would be the only way to dislodge Mr. Maduro’s government, this call marks the first time the opposition has formally asked its international allies to consider the step.

“The violence and the intransigence on the Venezuelan government’s side brought us a couple of steps closer to a violent outcome here,” said Phil Gunson, an analyst at International Crisis Group, a think tank aimed at peacefully resolving conflicts. “It will certainly make it more difficult for a negotiated solution to occur.”

---

 

Showdown at Venezuela-Colombia Border

 

Tensions flare as opponents of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro attempt to deliver aid through a heavily armed blockade.

Oscar B. Castillo for The Wall Street Journal

---

“Yesterday that road of reconciliation was exhausted,” said Venezuelan lawmaker Sonia Miranda, who lives in exile in Miami and was one of the leaders of the bid to get aid into Venezuela. “The military option is the one we should appeal to at the moment.”

Many frustrated Venezuelans would agree. On Saturday, Josefa Merinto, a retired grandmother, watched the smoke from a burning aid truck. “Gentlemen, the best help you can give is American intervention,” she said. “We don’t have the capacity to knock Maduro out.”

On Saturday evening, the No. 1 world-wide trending topic on Twitter was #IntervencionMilitarYa, or “#MilitaryInterventionNow.”

The U.S. has recently increased pressure on Mr. Maduro through sanctions on Venezuela’s crucial oil industry and by supporting the opposition’s offer of amnesty for military officials who help restore democracy.

“After discussions tonight with several regional leaders, it is now clear that the grave crimes committed today by the Maduro regime have opened the door to various potential multilateral actions not on the table just 24 hours ago,” Sen. Marco Rubio (R., Fla.) wrote Saturday on Twitter.

In the U.S., however, all but the most hawkish of the Trump administration are leery of being drawn into a military intervention. Canada and Latin American governments have said they won’t support armed intervention.

“Military action is not the right course at this point,” said Eric Farnsworth of the Americas Society/Council of the Americas, a Washington-based think tank. “It would be a step too far that would break up the international coalition against Maduro.”

Chile’s foreign minister said on Sunday the country wouldn’t support a military option for Venezuela. A high-ranking Peruvian official said he was adamantly opposed to such a step.

Mr. Farnsworth said a coordinated program of increased sanctions including the cancellation of visas of family members of important Maduro officials living in Europe and other countries would increase pressure.

On Sunday, the European Union denounced the violence as it called for Venezuelan security forces to show restraint and allow aid to enter. It also called for a political solution.

Tensions have grown quickly in the past five weeks over Venezuela, which is suffering Latin America’s worst recorded economic crisis and the world’s highest inflation.

Mr. Guaidó, as head of the country’s National Assembly, proclaimed himself interim president on Jan. 23 and was quickly backed by a groundswell of support from ordinary Venezuelans and most Western democracies.

The U.S.-backed opposition had hoped Mr. Guaidó’s challenge might force a split in the country’s armed forces, pushing Mr. Maduro from power and paving the way for new elections.

This past weekend’s attempt to move in humanitarian aid was another attempt to test the armed forces. More than 100 military officers defected over the weekend, Colombia’s migration office said, with some swearing allegiance to Mr. Guaidó.

Mr. Maduro has struck a defiant tone, setting the stage for a drawn-out crisis. A U.S. official involved in the aid effort said “we are barely in the first inning,” predicting the confrontation would go on for a long time. “Anybody who thinks this will take a short time is not looking at what’s in front of them.”

The officers who defected said the majority of soldiers were unhappy with the government, but were too afraid to act.

“My colleagues also want to get out, but it’s dangerous, it takes courage,” said Sgt. Carlos Eduardo Zapata, who abandoned his post at the National Guard on Sunday in plain clothes and walked an hour to the Brazilian side of the border. “People insult us, but they need to understand we are afraid. We are military. If we try to leave we risk prison and even death. They threaten our family.”

For some Venezuelans, the opposition’s failure to get the aid into the country strengthened Mr. Maduro’s grip on power.

“We are demoralized because we didn’t meet our objectives,” said Nelson Fernandez, a 41-year-old merchant based in the border city of San Cristobal. “We thought it would all be different this time. I feel we are at a dead end in Venezuela. Maduro is stronger now.”

—Maolis Castro in San Cristobal, Venezuela, 
Paulo Trevisani 
in Pacaraima, Brazil, and 
Daniela Blandon in Cucúta 
contributed to this article.

Write to José de Córdoba at jose.decordoba@wsj.com and Ryan Dube at ryan.dube@dowjones.com

Appeared in the February 25, 2019, print edition as 'Maduro’s Opposition Urges Military Force in Venezuela.

When are you signing up?

[hpslugga 4097]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Again, straw man.  If you can cite one post by me -- even one -- where I suggest an American military invasion/action, then you can keep your post up.  Otherwise, you are fucking lying.  

To be fair, in practical application, you don't need to say it. And that's not even to attribute some sinister desires on your part; it's just how the game is played. I'm sorry, but when a United States administration, let alone this gang of clowns, is putting out statements such as:

"We’re in conversation with major American companies now. I think we’re trying to get to the same end result here. … It will make a big difference to the United States economically if we could have American oil companies really invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezuela,"

there isn't very much wiggle room for interpretation. Sure, YOU may not prefer military intervention in lieu of international bodies overseeing a transition, but the thing is that's not how it works in real politics, especially not when we're involved. It hasn't been that way since before the United Nations (really even the League of Nations) was founded. You have to go back to the pre-WWI days where shit MAY have worked out like that, but the examples are few and far between, and nonexistent in the case of Latin America. 

To repeat, even Maduro's critics in Latin America are laughing their asses off at the idea that this "aid" that we're putting out there is "humanitarian," as well they should be. We've seen this scenario play itself out so many times that it truly is insane to expect a different outcome.

Like I said earlier, this needs to be an OAS project (not the UN because the whole world doesn't need to be involved, and I'm especially referring to China and Russia), with no state taking on a larger role than anyone else. And again, as I said, one of Maduro's big concerns is that he's going to be executed if he's removed from power all exposed like that. In the interest of moving shit forward, there needs to be a settlement made where Maduro is informed "you lose the presidency, but you get to live and we will guarantee that." Those sorts of transitions have happened in the past.

Maduro has legitimate concerns that he's going to go the way of Saddam Hussein, Nicolae Ceaușescu, Muammar Gaddafi, etc. That's not at all some plea on my part for pacifism or anything like that; it's just to say that the shit that's being suggested by both Guaido and by the Trump administration is a nonstarter in terms of real politics. Do you want him out or not, and do you care if his ouster could potentially affect the population in general? Well if you do, then you need to support efforts to finesse him out and not support measures that just make you personally feel good. And hell, even after you've secured his ouster via those diplomatic means, I wouldn't shed a tear if by the very next day that UN personnel show up at his doorstep with the intent of trying him for crimes against humanity.

The OAS also needs to apply pressure on Venezuela in general to guarantee that Guaido holds elections and soon. As I said, the 30-day window has already closed since they Assembly announced he was the Interim President, and they haven't even announced a scheduled election. This already smells rotten, it's got Elliot Abrams' and John Bolton's filthy finger prints all over it, and we should all be concerned that this is just gonna be another 1954 Guatemala, 1964 Brazil, 1965 Dominican Republic, 1973 Chile, 2004 Haiti, 2009 Honduras, et al. Were you bald-headed and wearing a yellow t-shirt, I would be screaming at you "DON'T TRY KICKING THAT FOOTBALL, CHARLIE BROWN!"

I suppose you could enlighten the rest of us as to how to efficaciously remove Maduro absent a US-backed coup. And I'm not saying that to be a smartass, I really don't know what it is you have in mind that would achieve the ultimate end of a Venezuela without him.

Edited February 25, 2019 by hpslugga

[bad_teammate 13524]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

hehe, you said Myanmar... The regime of the generals still to this day. And it is Burma. Did you miss the Rohingya issue? This article is less than a year old. I won't even bring up the continued conflict in East Burma.

The transition in Myanmar was going very well for a long time, but it's breaking down for sure. Also, there is popular support for the barbarism against the Rohingya and strong-man governance, which is actually expressed democratically. "Democracy" is simply about people being able to vote and have a voice, it doesn't mean the society under democracy is pluralistic and liberal.

[InkaUtexas 26891]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

The transition in Myanmar was going very well for a long time, but it's breaking down for sure. Also, there is popular support for the barbarism against the Rohingya and strong-man governance, which is actually expressed democratically. "Democracy" is simply about people being able to vote and have a voice, it doesn't mean the society under democracy is pluralistic and liberal.

It never ended in the Eastern part of the country. And yes, the Monks did a great job developing common hate and support for the backing of the Generals. Ms. Suu Ryi was a great face for the west, but shit never changed. 

Would you consider Sudan a democracy? 

[bad_teammate 13524]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

It never ended in the Eastern part of the country. And yes, the Monks did a great job developing common hate and support for the backing of the Generals. Ms. Suu Ryi was a great face for the west, but shit never changed. 

Would you consider Sudan a democracy? 

Technically, yes. In practice, hell no.

Yeah, it's a bunch of garbage everywhere. The issue isn't that all of these places are wonderlands or even admirable, the issue is external interventionist policy.

[hpslugga 4097]

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"Democracy" is simply about people being able to vote and have a voice

Well that vote has to count for something. Even Hosni Mubarak was "elected."

[bad_teammate 13524]

A democratic farce on top of an authoritarian structure is not uncommon, sadly.

[InkaUtexas 26891]

15 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

A democratic farce on top of an authoritarian structure is not uncommon, sadly.

So then do you end these regimes? If so how?  If not then we all need to learn with turning a blind eye. I think most agree Sanctions do not work when the regime can continue to steal and move assets. 

As said above, Venezuela should be an OAS led program, but sadly Maduro does not need to retreat or change. He can remain hidden behind even the smallest of military units and continue his ways. 

[bad_teammate 13524]

3 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

So then do you end these regimes?

If "you" means "foreign actors" then no, you don't.
If "you" means "the citizens of that nation" then yes, you do.

There are certainly triggers for interventionism, but they should be extremely hard pulls.

[Rimbo 27022]

https://politics.theonion.com/mike-pence-criticizes-venezuela-s-use-of-torture-starv-1832880275 

 

The Onion remains on point.

[Rimbo 27022]

3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

A democratic farce on top of an authoritarian structure is not uncommon, sadly.

Sure, but what's going on in Venezuela is far, far beyond that. It's literally a disaster area where the government currently in power knows full well the depth and breadth of catastrophe they're leading and causing, knowing full well that it cannot continue indefinitely, but also knowing that the minute they lose their grip it'll be their own asses on the line, their own selves fighting for whatever scraps of food they can gather.

Maybe offer them golden parachutes, but at this point, they might not mentally be able to accept it.

[bad_teammate 13524]

23 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Sure, but what's going on in Venezuela is far, far beyond that. It's literally a disaster area where the government currently in power knows full well the depth and breadth of catastrophe they're leading and causing, knowing full well that it cannot continue indefinitely, but also knowing that the minute they lose their grip it'll be their own asses on the line, their own selves fighting for whatever scraps of food they can gather.

Anyone attempting to argue for either direct military intervention or continuing to attempt to foment a civil war that will kill tens of thousands (or more) is going to have to get more specific in establishing that what is happening there now is worse than a civil war/military invasion.

[Fozzz 152]

35 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Sure, but what's going on in Venezuela is far, far beyond that. It's literally a disaster area where the government currently in power knows full well the depth and breadth of catastrophe they're leading and causing, knowing full well that it cannot continue indefinitely, but also knowing that the minute they lose their grip it'll be their own asses on the line, their own selves fighting for whatever scraps of food they can gather.

Maybe offer them golden parachutes, but at this point, they might not mentally be able to accept it.

This is simply unhinged propaganda.  Venezuela is not a "disaster area" and the shortages plaguing their economy are largely due to the financial blockade that has been placed on Venezuela by the US.  

 

Compare the decline in Venezuelan oil production following the drop in oil prices in 2016 and following the implementation of US sanctions.  The sanctions were intended to cripple their economy so that morons like yourself would then buy into a "humanitarian" regime change operation.

Quote

It’s not just the the media’s apparent amnesia with regard to those 2017 sanctions and their impact on the oil industry that is the problem here. In fact, the impact of those sanctions was even larger. As my colleague, Mark Weisbrot has previously explained, and as Rodríguez notes in the same article linked above, the sanctions made it virtually impossible for the Venezuela government to take the measures necessary to eliminate hyperinflation or recover from a deep depression. Such measures would include debt restructuring, and creating a new exchange rate system (Exchange Rate Bases Stabilization), in which the currency would normally be pegged to the dollar.

But it actually gets worse. When the US first announced its recognition of Juan Guaidó as president of Venezuela on January 23, the decision was met largely with applause within the foreign policy establishment. It seemed like nobody bothered to think about what, practically and economically, the decision would mean. Since Trump’s election, and his increasingly threatening rhetoric in relation to Venezuela, there has been wide agreement that a full-scale oil embargo would be terrible, both for Venezuela and the US. Yet somehow hardly anyone realized that by recognizing Guaidó, the US was de facto putting an oil embargo in place.

http://cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog/what-s-the-deal-with-sanctions-in-venezuela-and-why-s-it-so-hard-for-media-to-understand

[Anastasis 23720]

American and Western economic interests at stake.  Y'all motherfuckers know what god damned time it is.  The only correct decision anyone could make wrt American foreign policy is to not make a decision, or some such fucking nonsense. 

 

 

[Rimbo 27022]

1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

This is simply unhinged propaganda.  Venezuela is not a "disaster area" and the shortages plaguing their economy are largely due to the financial blockade that has been placed on Venezuela by the US.  

I'm going to take a wild guess here that you don't know anyone who's been to Venezuela recently or who has family there.

"Unhinged propaganda?" I may be unhinged, but this assessment is not.

[Rimbo 27022]

I mean, I am almost certainly off my hinges, but seriously. Find your favorite friend/coworker who has been in Venezuela recently or who has family there, and ask him or her what's happening down there.

This is not the same as the standard "democracy in name only" bullshit that Latin America is famous for.

[David Dennison 19542]

2 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

I mean, I am almost certainly off my hinges, but seriously. Find your favorite friend/coworker who has been in Venezuela recently or who has family there, and ask him or her what's happening down there.

This is not the same as the standard "democracy in name only" bullshit that Latin America is famous for.

Are they willing to fight?

[Rimbo 27022]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Are they willing to fight?

My understanding is that they're too busy trying to survive to fight.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Are they willing to fight?

Another chapter in the bad ass internet warrior series.  

[David Dennison 19542]

5 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

My understanding is that they're too busy trying to survive to fight.

That might be a problem.

[Rimbo 27022]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

That might be a problem.

If we're expecting a regime change without any kind of intervention, then yes. Yes, it is.

Foreign support in revolutions and civil wars is ordinary. We needed help from the French in our own Revolution, and the British borrowed Hessians. There were foreign powers on both sides of our own civil war. In the end, justice doesn't happen unless justice also has the bigger best friend.

The reason the US has such a spotty history in Latin America isn't because we got involved; it's because we generally supported assholes like Pinochet.

[David Dennison 19542]

1 minute ago, Rimbo said:

If we're expecting a regime change without any kind of intervention, then yes. Yes, it is.

Foreign support in revolutions and civil wars is ordinary. We needed help from the French in our own Revolution, and the British borrowed Hessians. There were foreign powers on both sides of our own civil war. In the end, justice doesn't happen unless justice also has the bigger best friend.

The reason the US has such a spotty history in Latin America isn't because we got involved; it's because we generally supported assholes like Pinochet.

I'd be shocked if we intervened militarily.

[bad_teammate 13524]

26 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

This is not the same as the standard "democracy in name only" bullshit that Latin America is famous for.

Go on...

[Rimbo 27022]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I'd be shocked if we intervened militarily.

Me, too. But I think that recognizing Guaidó is a step in the right direction.

And y'all need to realize how painful it is for me to say that I agree with anything that Trump has done... Like, I'm definitely not in the habit of doing so.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Rimbo

[Johnny Sack 8397]

28 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Are they willing to fight?

They have access to guns?

[David Dennison 19542]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

They have access to guns?

If we want them to.

[InkaUtexas 26891]

There is no shortage of weapons in Latin America with or without us. 

[bad_teammate 13524]

lol this world is so fucking stupid

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[Telegraph_it 3379]

Trumps rhetoric gave Maduro the confidence to detain the journalists. 

[bad_teammate 13524]

Maduro sucks.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Maduro sucks.

 

Shit, somebodies hacked BT's account.

[Nivek 17415]

lol. Pleading "please, US, come invade Venezuela and murder my countrymen" is surely a sign of strength for the usurper.  
Does anyone know if molotov cocktails are capable of starting fires?
 
 

No one thought to bring a funnel? Or better yet, pre-make them?

[bad_teammate 13524]

Smart American: "These endless wars are just leading to international suffering. We need to stop being the world's police."

*the political and financial establishments sell any potential conflict without even bothering to update the tactics used to sell previous wars*

Smart American: "This one, though, this one makes sense."

[Brisketexan 106899]

Maduro sucks.
 

Meh. Enemy of the people and all that. Totalitarians gonna totalitarian. Trump, Maduro, whatever.

I’m sure that someone can talk to him, though, and he’ll see the error of his ways and will repent.

[bad_teammate 13524]

Meh. Enemy of the people and all that. Totalitarians gonna totalitarian. Trump, Maduro, whatever.

I’m sure that someone can talk to him, though, and he’ll see the error of his ways and will repent.

You never explained your Nazi punching comparison. Can you clear that up for me?

[Brisketexan 106899]

You never explained your Nazi punching comparison. Can you clear that up for me?

Sure. Merely declaring one’s affinity for a totalitarian asshole philosophy is worthy of punching in the face - we don’t enter into dialogue with Nazi assholes - we punch them. I mean, we do that when that totalitarian assholery is right-wing. But left-wing totalitarian assholery, well, everyone should just try to nicely convince them not to be so bad.

Right wing assholes: punch.

Left wing assholes: pleasant conversation.

[bad_teammate 13524]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Sure. Merely declaring one’s affinity for a totalitarian asshole philosophy is worthy of punching in the face - we don’t enter into dialogue with Nazi assholes - we punch them. I mean, we do that when that totalitarian assholery is right-wing. But left-wing totalitarian assholery, well, everyone should just try to nicely convince them not to be so bad.

Nope, still clear as mud. And it's that way because you don't actually have a point you can make and you're hope that saying "NAZI!" will carry enough emotional weight to hide the fact that you don't have an argument.

- Are you saying American non-Nazis shouldn't punch Nazis?
- Are you saying American non-Nazis should punch Maduro fans? (Do those even exist in America?)
- Are you saying we should invade Venezuela?
- Are you saying we should try to start a civil war in Venezuela with dirty tricks? (Which we are actively doing right now.)

And no, bud, Nicolas Maduro is nothing like Adolf Hitler. What's going on in Venezuela is nothing like the Holocaust. Not to get moralistic, but those 6 million dead bodies aren't really the shield you should be using to defend your war-mongering.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Nope, still clear as mud. And it's that way because you don't actually have a point you can make and you're hope that saying "NAZI!" will carry enough emotional weight to hide the fact that you don't have an argument.

- Are you saying American non-Nazis shouldn't punch Nazis?
- Are you saying American non-Nazis should punch Maduro fans? (Do those even exist in America?)
- Are you saying we should invade Venezuela?
- Are you saying we should try to start a civil war in Venezuela with dirty tricks? (Which we are actively doing right now.)

And no, bud, Nicolas Maduro is nothing like Adolf Hitler. What's going on in Venezuela is nothing like the Holocaust. Not to get moralistic, but those 6 million dead bodies aren't really the shield you should be using to defend your war-mongering.

Maduro is your kind of guy, espousing a "socialist" agenda, so he gets a pass and a top of the hat . Is he a Nazi ?  No he's just a strong man, in the guise of a socialist stealing money.  Is he creating a holocaust ?  No, his energy is strictly greed, and power related, but denying aid to civilians has the same outcome for many... death.

I love your whole internet warrior, I punch Nazis schtick.  It's cute.

[bad_teammate 13524]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Maduro is your kind of guy, espousing a "socialist" agenda, so he gets a pass and a top of the hat .

Gets a pass from what?

- Foreign invasion? Yes, he absolutely should get a pass from that, because that's not something we should be doing.

- Dirty tricks from our deep state to foment a civil war? Yes, he absolutely should get a pass from that, because that's not something we should be doing.

- Vocal criticism? No, have at it. He's a bad president, an illegitimate president, an unlikable person, and an idiot.

- Diplomatic pressure from regional nations? No, have at it.

- Demands for free and fair elections monitored by the UN? No, have at it.

- Sanctions on his personal wealth and the personal wealth and international travel and dealings of him and his rich cronies? No, that's great, go for it.

[Fozzz 152]

13 hours ago, Rimbo said:

I'm going to take a wild guess here that you don't know anyone who's been to Venezuela recently or who has family there.

"Unhinged propaganda?" I may be unhinged, but this assessment is not.

Here is Alfred de Zayas (UN investigator who was designated to assess the situation in Venezuela) comparing the situation in Venezuela with the crises in Gaza, Syria, and Yemen.

 

[bad_teammate 13524]

It's amazing that the UN sent an inspector (and not just some lunatic random) who provided a report to the UN Human Rights Council and the mainstream Western media just completely ignored it and the supposedly-woke freshly-anti-interventionists in the middle are just going to parrot the same anti-UN BS that they used to advocate for destroying the Middle East post-9/11.

[Fozzz 152]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

It's amazing that the UN sent an inspector (and not just some lunatic random) who provided a report to the UN Human Rights Council and the mainstream Western media just completely ignored it and the supposedly-woke freshly-anti-interventionists in the middle are just going to parrot the same anti-UN BS that they used to advocate for destroying the Middle East post-9/11.

Putin is probably responsible for this somehow.

[Rimbo 27022]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

It's amazing that the UN sent an inspector (and not just some lunatic random) who provided a report to the UN Human Rights Council and the mainstream Western media just completely ignored it and the supposedly-woke freshly-anti-interventionists in the middle are just going to parrot the same anti-UN BS that they used to advocate for destroying the Middle East post-9/11.

Yes, I'm sure those other areas of the world are also disaster areas, but that doesn't make Venezuela any less of one.

This is getting ridiculous. You can't beat firsthand knowledge of the situation, and yet you keep trying and pretending that I'm somehow describing "media" reports. Certainly, my friends' families' opinions aren't the end-all be-all Truth of Everything, but they're a damned fine barometer of what is actually true.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Rimbo

[David Dennison 19542]

34 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Yes, I'm sure those other areas of the world are also disaster areas, but that doesn't make Venezuela any less of one.

This is getting ridiculous. You can't beat firsthand knowledge of the situation, and yet you keep trying and pretending that I'm somehow describing "media" reports. Certainly, my friends' families' opinions aren't the end-all be-all Truth of Everything, but they're a damned fine barometer of what is actually true.

If the opposition can't get other nations to intervene militarily, how does it plan to turn Venezuela's military away from Maduro?

[bad_teammate 13524]

4 hours ago, Rimbo said:

Yes, I'm sure those other areas of the world are also disaster areas, but that doesn't make Venezuela any less of one.

This is getting ridiculous. You can't beat firsthand knowledge of the situation, and yet you keep trying and pretending that I'm somehow describing "media" reports. Certainly, my friends' families' opinions aren't the end-all be-all Truth of Everything, but they're a damned fine barometer of what is actually true.

As is the opinion of the UN Inspector, a man with a long and storied history of doing this exact thing all over the world for decades.

Lots of the world is a disaster area. The question isn't whether or not Venezuela is a good place to be, it's whether or not we should (1) invade it to change it or (2) try to start a civil war to change it.

Would Venezuela in the midst of a US-instigated Civil War be better than it is now?