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Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

PittsburghTiger

By PittsburghTiger
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hpslugga

hpslugga 4061

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Calihorn said:

Oh boy, another "comfortable first worlders are gonna get off their asses and fight the government." Argument, how wonderful.

All that just reminds me of Craig T Nelson when he was ranting about how he was contemplating not paying taxes. His reasoning? “They’re [the federal government] not going to bail me out. I’ve been on food stamps and welfare. Anybody help me out? No. No.”

It's straight out of the Get Your Government Hands Off My Medicare School of Duh.

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Huckleberry
Huckleberry

Listen, @bad_teammate, this is a complicated situation and I actually do see the logic in both sides of the end result positions. But that's a lot more complicated topic I don't have time for right no

Johnny Sack
Johnny Sack

In this thread surly libs blame the US for the failures of socialism.  

EuroHorn
EuroHorn
David Dennison

David Dennison 18860

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

The thing about the services is not sinking in with you though - Billy Badass doesn't have to fire a shot to affect the military.   Billy Badass just has to stop showing up for work at the refinery, at the bank, at the Walmart, at the trucking company.   Pipelines don't magically work.   Food doesn't cook, package, and ship itself.

If soldiers stop getting their paychecks, and stop having places to spend those paychecks, and their families stop getting food, well, their loyalty to GEOTUS Trump will quickly evaporate.

You think the average soldier is going to watch his family go hungry and would prefer to curb stomp libtards for GEOTUS Trump?  Or do you think he will say "fuck it, Emma grab the kids, we are making a run for Cousin Jimmy's farm!"

Depends on how much they don't want to be court martialed and thrown in jail.

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89674

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Depends on how much they don't want to be court martialed and thrown in jail.

Now you've just tied up even more troops, because somebody has to track him down and then guard him in jail.  And he won't be the only one thinking "I'm not getting paid and my family is starving, fuck this, I'm out."

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18860

Posted
Posted
Just now, atomheartbevo said:

Now you've just tied up even more troops, because somebody has to track him down and then guard him in jail.  And he won't be the only one thinking "I'm not getting paid and my family is starving, fuck this, I'm out."

But they will be paid and their family won't starve. This isn't the Army of Northern Virginia we're talking about. 

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89674

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

But they will be paid and their family won't starve. This isn't the Army of Northern Virginia we're talking about. 

How are they getting paid if the local banks aren't open?  How are they feeding their families if HEB isn't open?

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18860

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

How are they getting paid if the local banks aren't open?  How are they feeding their families if HEB isn't open?

They'll have their pay direct deposited into their base's credit union like always or into the national bank of their choosing. If the HEB is closed they'll feed their families with food flown in by the military. I really don't think local upheaval will have much of an effect on a thoroughly nationalized military. 

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workswithseed

workswithseed 2109

Posted
Posted
25 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

They'll have their pay direct deposited into their base's credit union like always or into the national bank of their choosing. If the HEB is closed they'll feed their families with food flown in by the military. I really don't think local upheaval will have much of an effect on a thoroughly nationalized military. 

If the nation was in this turmoil that cops couldn't handle it, it sounds more than just local.

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Horn Under a Bad Sign

Horn Under a Bad Sign 20400

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, woohorn said:


 

 


Bullshit. You driven in Austin lately?

 


I have not, but I was in Baghdad two years ago.  Nine times the population of Austin in an area less than 1/3rd the size.  That's right: Baghdad's population density is about 27 times that of Austin. That doesn't include the goats. You want to tell me about horrendous traffic/people?  I have to laugh when people whine about Austin traffic.   

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 25948

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:


I have not, but I was in Baghdad two years ago.  Nine times the population of Austin in an area less than 1/3rd the size.  That's right: Baghdad's population density is about 27 times that of Austin. That doesn't include the goats. You want to tell me about horrendous traffic/people?  I have to laugh when people whine about Austin traffic.   

ahhhh, I will take Kabul even with the open sewers. 

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4061

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Enchubben said:

Trump takes hard line stance against Dictator and supports removal: “Trump needs to stop meddling in foreign affairs”

Trump backs off hard line stance: “Trump is taking orders from Russia”

Geez you say that as if it’s the same people that are saying both things. Could you please list 5?

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Chrispy

Chrispy 132

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Enchubben said:

Trump takes hard line stance against Dictator and supports removal: “Trump needs to stop meddling in foreign affairs”

Trump backs off hard line stance: “Trump is taking orders from Russia”

Holy shit, spot on. 

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Enchubben said:

Trump takes hard line stance against Dictator and supports removal: “Trump needs to stop meddling in foreign affairs”

Trump backs off hard line stance: “Trump is taking orders from Russia”

Enchubben, these people are far too insane to reason with.

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Enchubben

Enchubben 5510

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Enchubben, these people are far too insane to reason with.

They are entitled to their opinion and I don’t like name calling or exaggeration. I think it’s a very small but adamant group that are  not supportive of a free Venezuela.

I think deep down a large majority of Americans would actually be supportive of how Venezuela is being handled if it were anyone but Trump doing it.

I’m just pointing out that you can make some people happy all the time, all people happy some of the time,  but it’s impossible to make all the people happy all the time.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18860

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

They are entitled to their opinion and I don’t like name calling or exaggeration. I think it’s a very small but adamant group that are  not supportive of a free Venezuela.

I think deep down a large majority of Americans would actually be supportive of how Venezuela is being handled if it were anyone but Trump doing it.

I’m just pointing out that you can make some people happy all the time, all people happy some of the time,  but it’s impossible to make all the people happy all the time.

But it is Donald Trump, and that matters in politics.

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

They are entitled to their opinion and I don’t like name calling or exaggeration. I think it’s a very small but adamant group that are  not supportive of a free Venezuela.

I think deep down a large majority of Americans would actually be supportive of how Venezuela is being handled if it were anyone but Trump doing it.

I’m just pointing out that you can make some people happy all the time, all people happy some of the time,  but it’s impossible to make all the people happy all the time.

Sadly, I think you are correct.  Trump is an awful avatar for US imperialism.  

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11362

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Enchubben said:

Trump takes hard line stance against Dictator and supports removal: “Trump needs to stop meddling in foreign affairs”

Trump backs off hard line stance: “Trump is taking orders from Russia”

 

38 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Also, both can be true. 

 

25 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

Both can be wrong too.

so, you admit creating a false dichotomy? 

i happen to kind of support trump's stance on venezuela, but i have a close friend who is venezuelan. she hates chavez's legacy and hates maduro. her immediate family left years ago for colombia, because they had options. her grandparents did not. they have left as of this week, leaving most of their belongings and a business behind. 

it's an ironic situation, actually. the diaspora of venezuelans kind of reminds me of cuba (she said this as well), because if those who left had instead stayed, then maybe there would be a population to overthrow the regime.

it's just sad all around.

but make no mistake - maduro is no good guy.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13196

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Maduro is a good guy.  Certainly compared to our political leaders.

I wouldn't go so far as a good guy, but the idea that he's a horrific despot lacks any evidence. And the idea that he's more corrupt than our own national leadership is completely laughable.

We have zero moral or ethical standing to make demands of Maduro or his government. We're just stronger.

And that is something that liberals and conservatives alike love about our country, its pig-headed, blood-soaked arrogance.

Edited by bad_teammate
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texastough

texastough 1129

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I wouldn't go so far as a good guy, but the idea that he's a horrific despot lacks any evidence. And the idea that he's more corrupt than our own national leadership is completely laughable.

We have zero moral or ethical standing to make demands of Maduro or his government. We're just stronger.

And that is something that liberals and conservatives alike love about our country, its pig-headed, blood-soaked arrogance.

Dude, you are so badly misinformed about this. I respect your not wanting the U.S. to meddle in other countries, but it seems to me that your views about meddling in general are leading you to believe what you want to believe about Maduro and Venezuela. 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13196

Posted
Posted
Just now, texastough said:

... but it seems to me that your views about meddling in general are leading you to believe what you want to believe about Maduro and Venezuela. 

Do you have evidence that Maduro is a horrific despot?

There are multiple people who have instigated armed coups against him and they walk free and safe. Seems to me that a real despot would have people like Juan Guaido and Leopoldo Lopez black-bagged and buried in a deep hole.

He seems like a pretty mid-level corrupt "president" of a nation that's been under constant covert attack by the most powerful forces in the world for two decades

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, texastough said:

Dude, you are so badly misinformed about this. I respect your not wanting the U.S. to meddle in other countries, but it seems to me that your views about meddling in general are leading you to believe what you want to believe about Maduro and Venezuela. 

Glad that texastough agrees with me that bt is misinformed about Maduro, who actually is a good guy.

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texastough

texastough 1129

Posted
Posted

Here's what I know. Neither U.S. Sanctions nor "constant covert attack" crippled the Venezuelan economy. Chavez started the scheme of enriching himself and his cronies from oil money, and when Maduro took over he turned that up to 11. He has stolen more money from his country and people than any other leader in the history of the world. While he was getting unimaginably wealthy, his people were starving. This happened long before significant sanctions were placed on his regime - Venezuela's economy was already in ruins.  Sanctions like not purchasing Venezuelan oil did not really affect the people of Venezuela, because they were not seeing any of that $ anyway. The sanctions are affect Maduro and the individuals operating this breathtaking kleptocracy. 

Not only that, but in 2017 Maduro appointed a terrorist/drug trafficker of Syrian/Lebanese descent as VP. They have a strong link with terrorist groups from Iran. 

Horrific despot? I didn't use that term, so I don't know, I guess it depends on your definition of horrific despot. Is he genocidal? Not that I'm aware. But the above is enough for me. I was responding to your assertion that "the idea that he's more corrupt than our own national leadership is completely laughable." If we are comparing Trump to Maduro then I might agree with you -- their corruption is on the same level and if Trump could steal billions he would do it in a heartbeat. But I don't consider Trump national leadership. 

Maduro is such a huge piece of shit and needs to go. Take a stand against meddling, but don't make shit up like we caused Venezuela's problems and Maduro is "a pretty mid-level corrupt president."

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105144

Posted
Posted

You know what's cool about autocratic governments?  No matter what ideology they use as a cloak to legitimize themselves to one power structure or another (that is, whether they claim to be a "bulwark of democracy standing strong against the communist threat" or they claim to be "a new socialist order returning power to the people").....the top leadership always manages to sock away a kabillion dollars of the people's money for themselves.

The product being sold is "what the right people want to hear," and the profits are always the same, and always go into a few pockets at the top (well, and their cronies - there's always good opportunities for cronies to loot the treasury, too).

I'll believe one of these guys is really "standing up for the people" when I look at his bank accounts and see a balance reflecting the earnings of a public servant.  I ain't holding my breath.  Shit, I don't hold my breath on that account much here in the US.

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, texastough said:

Not only that, but in 2017 Maduro appointed a terrorist/drug trafficker of Syrian/Lebanese descent as VP. They have a strong link with terrorist groups from Iran. 

lmao.  There really are living, breathing human beings who buy this horseshit.  

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13196

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, texastough said:

Here's what I know. Neither U.S. Sanctions nor "constant covert attack" crippled the Venezuelan economy. Chavez started the scheme of enriching himself and his cronies from oil money, and when Maduro took over he turned that up to 11. He has stolen more money from his country and people than any other leader in the history of the world.

 

Oh, habibi, you are so naive.

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11362

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, Winona's Big Orange Bevo said:

DIT+NAT+VENEZUELA+CLASH+043019.00_00_02_

exactly.

also, generally, a regime can be judged by the number of people trying to leave the country. since chavez took power, people have left in droves.  that tells a story all on its own.

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 25948

Posted
Posted
Just now, bad_teammate said:

I think Daniel Ortega is a better person than our current president.

Our list of crimes in Latin America is long and keeps growing.

so you think we need to teach them how to be mean and torture? how to steal? 

Nice little Indians, living on the Sierra, all good and then came the Americans. 

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I bet you like Ortega and think everything the US has ever done in Latin America is wrong. 

Reagan should have died shitting his diaper in prison for what he did to Nicaragua.  

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texastough

texastough 1129

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Oh, habibi, you are so naive.

Thats pretty rich my man. 

InSight Crime states that state funds "have been pillaged on an industrial scale by the Bolivarian elite" and that "kleptocracy has certainly been one of the main factors that has brought Venezuela to the edge of economic collapse and bankruptcy".[124] Price controls introduced by President Chávez in 2003 helped establish kleptocratic practices that still occur in Venezuela today, allowing officials to buy dollars for cheap and then exchange them bolívares at a higher black market rate so they could exchange for more dollars.[124]

It has been estimated that between the mid-2000s and the mid-2010s, over $300 billion dollars were misused by the Bolivarian government.[32] The opposition-led National Assembly estimated that about $87 billion had been embezzled between multiple projects, including $27 billion by the Ministry of Food, $25 billion by the Ministry of Electricity, $22 billion for unfinished transportation works $11 billion by PDVSA and $1.5 billion by the Ministry of Health.[125]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Venezuela#Kleptocracy

 

But not everyone is suffering. Determined to buy loyalty, Maduro has granted the 160,000-strong military unprecedented freedom to engage in illicit money-making schemes. Parliament estimates that friends of the government have stolen at least $350 billion from public bodies in recent years. Investigations show high-ranking members of the military are involved in drug-trafficking and fuel-smuggling. (Maduro denies any criminal wrongdoing.) “The levels of crime in Venezuela in the last few years have been unimaginable—higher than I can remember in any other case in recent history,” says Luis Almagro, secretary general of the Organization of American States. “There will be money laundered in every Latin American country.”

http://time.com/longform/venezuela-guaido-maduro-crossroads/

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 25948

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Iran-Contra should have ended the Reagan presidency.

It should have, but it didn't. 

And Ortega should die from Face Aids for what he did, and continues to do, in his country. You ever seen a bus blown up from a land mine laid by the FMLN? Ever seen Nicaraguan MI-24' shooting 57mm rockets into a convoy? I have. 

 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13196

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

so you think we need to teach them how to be mean and torture? how to steal?

lol what

We're really good at those things, ourselves. Humans are humans, bro.

Just now, texastough said:

Thats pretty rich my man.

Chavez and Maduro are kleptocrats, no doubt, I'm just pointing out that you saying Maduro puts every other kleptocrat to shame is laughable.

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