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Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0


PittsburghTiger

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Caracas (AFP) – Venezuelan authorities have arrested 131 people accused of attempting to sabotage reforms implemented by President Nicolas Maduro to alleviate a crippling economic crisis, the attorney general said on Thursday.

Tarek William Saab said the arrests included “several managers of large chains” accused of “speculating and hoarding basic products” that are subject to prices fixed by the government.

The detainees are accused of trying to “destabilize the economy,” Saab added.

Of those arrested, 29 have been permitted conditional release and 10 others exonerated.

Maduro has launched a raft of reforms aimed at ending four years of recession and arresting hyperinflation the International Monetary Fund predicts will reach one million percent this year.

One of those policies was to fix prices on 25 basic products, including beef, chicken and eggs, all of which have since disappeared from supermarket shelves.

The socialist government says the prices were agreed following talks with businesses and took into account production costs, but the Consecomercio trade union insists that only 35 companies were consulted and they did not represent the whole sector.

Shortages have forced hundreds of shops to close.

“Some merchants and businessmen made the decision to close, others are waiting to know the rules of the game that will govern us from now on,” Consecomercio president Maria Uzcategui told AFP.

Even before the uncertainty caused by Maduro’s measures, 40 percent of shops had closed this year, according to Consecomercio.

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so, maduro just cut diplomatic ties with the us.

that's sort of a big deal, but let's keep on talking about the goddamn state of the union address

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/opposition-launches-protests-to-oust-maduro-as-us-venezuela-tensions-rise/2019/01/22/0416687a-1e4f-11e9-a759-2b8541bbbe20_story.html?utm_term=.d1af2b6f4b8e

 

Quote

Venezuelan President Maduro gives U.S. diplomats 72 hours to leave after U.S. recognizes opposition leader as interim president

BREAKING NEWS: Maduro’s move to expel U.S. diplomatic personnel comes after the Trump administration called Maduro an “usurper” and recognized opposition leader Juan Guaidó as the nation’s interim president.

This story will be updated.

CARACAS, Venezuela — President Nicolás Maduro on Wednesday faced the gravest challenge to his authority since assuming power in 2013, as the U.S.-backed opposition claimed the legitimate mantle of leadership, and President Trump promptly recognized him as Venezuela’s interim president.

The dramatic developments came as anti-Maduro protests drew hundreds of thousands of people into Venezuelan streets. 

“Today, I am officially recognizing the President of the Venezuelan National Assembly, Juan Guaido, as the Interim President of Venezuela,” Trump said in a statement. “In its role as the only legitimate branch of government duly elected by the Venezuelan people, the National Assembly invoked the country’s constitution to declare Nicolas Maduro illegitimate, and the office of the presidency therefore vacant. The people of Venezuela have courageously spoken out against Maduro and his regime and demanded freedom and the rule of law.”

As the international campaign against him grew, Maduro, the anointed successor of socialist firebrand Hugo Chávez, who died in 2013, was confronting a new protagonist in the form of Guaidó. Before a cheering throng, the 35-year-old industrial engineer and recently named head of the country’s National Assembly took the long-awaited step Wednesday of declaring himself interim president — in an attempt to replace Maduro as the legitimate head of state. 

 

 

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FWIW, I agree with the Trump admin move on this one (and am thankful that they didn't have to be put in the positions of "thought leaders" on the issue).  Yes, a showdown -- an internal showdown -- is in the making literally as we speak.  This is how the dam breaks....if it's going to break.

It's not a move without risk, but in the full calculus, it's the right one right now.  You don't make a chess move because it makes you feel good.  You do it because of the position it will put your opponent in.  A lot of folks just made a move that puts Maduro in a tight spot.  And for the opposition to know that it's not alone gives it further legitimacy among the public -- there's kind of a spiral effect.

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10 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Counterpoint: This is a move coming from impure motives (to put it lightly) that will likely end in disaster, as how these things typically work out.  

Counter-counterpoint.....using the current status of Venezuela, and its starving, fleeing population who are subject to the violent whims of an autocratic government....what does "disaster" look like?

Everyone here knows that I trust my post-frito pie-lunch fart more than I trust Trump.  But he's not alone on this one, not even close to it.  The public in Venezuela looks to be in sizable support of the opposition.  There's good reason to believe the time is now for this kind of action. 

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Yea the status quo right now can't continue. Gf's famliy still lives there and are hurting bad. Her grandma has had to ration her medication into taking a 1/4 of what she is supposed to take. She has been bed ridden for a couple of months now. This shit sucks

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1 minute ago, Zepol87 said:

Yea the status quo right now can't continue. Gf's famliy still lives there and are hurting bad. Her grandma has had to ration her medication into taking a 1/4 of what she is supposed to take. She has been bed ridden for a couple of months now. This shit sucks

Oh, and I fully concede that I don't have all of the facts on the ground -- I presume that our intelligence agencies and assets in Venezuela have much more info than I do.  That doesn't mean that this strategy will ultimately work, but I think it does mean that, assessing the situation on the ground, it looks like this is the right time to move.

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5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Counter-counterpoint.....using the current status of Venezuela, and its starving, fleeing population who are subject to the violent whims of an autocratic government....what does "disaster" look like?

Everyone here knows that I trust my post-frito pie-lunch fart more than I trust Trump.  But he's not alone on this one, not even close to it.  The public in Venezuela looks to be in sizable support of the opposition.  There's good reason to believe the time is now for this kind of action. 

I’m sure similar arguments were made with respect to Libya under Gaddafi and things have obviously gotten worse there.

If the US cares so much about the welfare of ordinary Venezuelan citizens (obviously this isn’t true, but bear with me) then there are better ways of showing it than attempting to foment a right wing coup. For example, the could stop doing things - like sanctioning Venezuala - that actively hurt Venezuelans. 

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One thing to keep in mind with Venezuela is that everything you hear and read about it in Western media is propaganda. Not to say that Maduro is doing a bang up job and that our news is totally bereft of any inclining truth regarding the matter, but you should probably seek some other perspectives (not necessarily from the Venezuelan government). 

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4 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

One thing to keep in mind with Venezuela is that everything you hear and read about it in Western media is propaganda. Not to say that Maduro is doing a bang up job and that our news is totally bereft of any inclining truth regarding the matter, but you should probably seek some other perspectives (not necessarily from the Venezuelan government). 

I've got 'em.  There's plenty of them.  Come one, man, the facts are pretty damned plain.  And importantly, this isn't some rogue US operation here -- numerous other nations are doing the exact same thing.  Oh, and bolded for bullshit.  Come on, the fake news crap is pathetic.  Sure, every single story has some built-in slant, that's humanity, but come the fuck on.  Venezuela is a disaster (not shocking when you have an entirely resource-based economy and 1) the price for that resource plummets and 2) you mis-manage the FUCK out of that resource).

Sorry, there's no excusing Chavez and Maduro.  There isn't.  They actually stand as fantastic proof that authoritarianism is authoritarianism -- right wing, left wing, it don't make a shit.  Political "ideology" is just a cover for the real move, which is garden-variety chickenshit authoritarianism and usurpation of the rule of law and any legal or electoral accountability.

I'm not saying that these measures can't go wrong.  But you sure as shit can't say that Venezuela has been getting much of anything right.  It's time for a change.  Whether it will be a good one, well, that remains to be seen.  History can be a bitch as she's writing herself, that's for sure.

Edited by Brisketexan
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5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I've got 'em.  There's plenty of them.  Come one, man, the facts are pretty damned plain.  And importantly, this isn't some rogue US operation here -- numerous other nations are doing the exact same thing.  Oh, and bolded for bullshit.  Come on, the fake news crap is pathetic.  Sure, every single story has some built-in slant, that's humanity, but come the fuck on.  Venezuela is a disaster (not shocking when you have an entirely resource-based economy and 1) the price for that resource plummets and 2) you mis-manage the FUCK out of that resource).

Sorry, there's no excusing Chavez and Maduro.  There isn't.  They actually stand as fantastic proof that authoritarianism is authoritarianism -- right wing, left wing, it don't make a shit.  Political "ideology" is just a cover for the real move, which is garden-variety chickenshit authoritarianism and usurpation of the rule of law and any legal or electoral accountability.

I'm not saying that these measures can't go wrong.  But you sure as shit can't say that Venezuela has been getting much of anything right.  It's time for a change.  Whether it will be a good one, well, that remains to be seen.  History can be a bitch as she's writing herself, that's for sure.

lol so then it is our right, in violation of international law, to dictate when and how that change takes place?  Not the Venezuelan people themselves?  The leader of the opposition is extremely unpopular within Venezuela, but I guess we know better.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

lol so then it is our right, in violation of international law, to dictate when and how that change takes place?  Not the Venezuelan people themselves?  The leader of the opposition is extremely unpopular within Venezuela, but I guess we know better.

 

 

When they have a free election, I guess we'll find out.

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12 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

you should probably seek some other perspectives

What perspectives can explain or justify the total economic collapse and resulting humanitarian crisis the Chavez / Maduro regimes have delivered for the citizens of Venezuela? Truly an epic failure. It's time for change. This decision may be politically expedient for the President, but it is the right call.

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Just now, Hank Scorpio said:

When has the US of A overthrowing a South or Central American government ever gone wrong? And since when is it not our God given duty to interfere in whatever goddamn country we want, not for our own benefit, but to help those poor people? That's why God invented America! 

To be clear, I don't support military intervention.  But diplomatically, the decision of whether to recognize what government is legitimate is a not-unusual diplomatic move.

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Hopefully, Venezuela will have some patriotic generals declare their loyalty to the new President and will cause the chain reaction to topple Maduro. The US promising to pay the generals and their men is exactly the type of covert action we should be taking. Tanks in the streets of Caracas and announcing that Maduro needs to be arrested should be the next moves. Hopefully, there will be a Venezuelan general who becomes their Gen Sisi and saves their country. I was so disappointed when the Turkish coup of 2016 failed. This has a better chance of success 

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
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1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

One thing to keep in mind with Venezuela is that everything you hear and read about it in Western media is propaganda. Not to say that Maduro is doing a bang up job and that our news is totally bereft of any inclining truth regarding the matter, but you should probably seek some other perspectives (not necessarily from the Venezuelan government). 

TIL Sean Penn posts on the Surl

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2 hours ago, Incredulity said:

TIL Sean Penn posts on the Surl

If you don’t think American capital doesn’t have real, material interests in the privatization of Venezuelan resources, I don’t know what to tell you. The forces that shape mainstream western media stand to benefit from a right wing regime coming to power in Venezuela. 

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24 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

If you don’t think American capital doesn’t have real, material interests in the privatization of Venezuelan resources, I don’t know what to tell you. The forces that shape mainstream western media stand to benefit from a right wing regime coming to power in Venezuela. 

I am Sam wasn’t your best work.

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41 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

 

What's his point? That Trump and Democrats can or should never agree on a foreign policy issue? Is Maduro being a corrupt evil dictator causing starvation for millions in dispute? You'd prefer that continue? Until when or what point? I guess I don't get your contrarian position. 

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4 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Hopefully, Venezuela will have some patriotic generals declare their loyalty to the new President and will cause the chain reaction to topple Maduro. The US promising to pay the generals and their men is exactly the type of covert action we should be taking. Tanks in the streets of Caracas and announcing that Maduro needs to be arrested should be the next moves. Hopefully, there will be a Venezuelan general who becomes their Gen Sisi and saves their country. I was so disappointed when the Turkish coup of 2016 failed. This has a better chance of success 

Does it?

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4 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

When has the US of A overthrowing a South or Central American government ever gone wrong? And since when is it not our God given duty to interfere in whatever goddamn country we want, not for our own benefit, but to help those poor people? That's why God invented America! 

Things could not possibly get worse than the way they are under the Allende regime. It’s time for a change!

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7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

FWIW, I agree with the Trump admin move on this one (and am thankful that they didn't have to be put in the positions of "thought leaders" on the issue).  Yes, a showdown -- an internal showdown -- is in the making literally as we speak.  This is how the dam breaks....if it's going to break.

It's not a move without risk, but in the full calculus, it's the right one right now.  You don't make a chess move because it makes you feel good.  You do it because of the position it will put your opponent in.  A lot of folks just made a move that puts Maduro in a tight spot.  And for the opposition to know that it's not alone gives it further legitimacy among the public -- there's kind of a spiral effect.

I fully support this. I think we all realize someone had to tell him to do this so kudos to the person or persons that convinced him to begin the final push of getting Maduro out. One of my best friends is from Venezuela and this happening is a big deal for him. He needs to return to Caracas for personal reasons, but due to the turmoil there he has not gone back.

It's been sad watching the people there suffer so greatly. I hope this is a step in the right direction. Venezuelans deserve a chance to live normal lives.

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2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Does it?

Yes. And this is because the US has always maintained dialogue with Latin American militaries. And before you go all Central America think of this one thing. 

1- What the fuck can we teach about brutality Latin Militaries do not even know?  

 

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1 hour ago, UpperWestside said:

I fully support this. I think we all realize someone had to tell him to do this so kudos to the person or persons that convinced him to begin the final push of getting Maduro out. One of my best friends is from Venezuela and this happening is a big deal for him. He needs to return to Caracas for personal reasons, but due to the turmoil there he has not gone back.

It's been sad watching the people there suffer so greatly. I hope this is a step in the right direction. Venezuelans deserve a chance to live normal lives.

This could set the stage for a protracted civil war. But let’s hope for the best! lol 

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14 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

When has the US of A overthrowing a South or Central American government ever gone wrong? And since when is it not our God given duty to interfere in whatever goddamn country we want, not for our own benefit, but to help those poor people? That's why God invented America! 

The problem is that Guaido talks a good game about free elections, but if he succeeds, it will probably work out like the rest of these things do.  

It starts with "Now is not the time for elections. We have to first rebuild our governing structure."

Then "The economy is getting better.  Having an election now will only disrupt that."

Then "Everyone loves me.  Let's have a sham election."

And finally "Fuck it.  No more elections. I'm dictator for life bitches."

Edited by FondrenRoad
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